The Fast and Furious Story Without the Hype

[mikeb302000]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-winkler/obamas-growing-gun-proble_b_917104.html">Huffington Post contributor Adam Winkler described it clearly and simply.

Now that Republicans in Congress won important concessions from President Obama in the debt ceiling debate, the next partisan battle is likely to be over what promises to be the first major scandal of the Obama administration: the botched gun sting known as "Operation Fast and Furious." The administration should waste no time and come clean about what happened, who approved it, and how it can be avoided again.

Unfortunately, the early signs are that Obama is going to handle this controversy as poorly as he handled the debt ceiling debate.

Professor Winkler goes on to point out that the cover-up is probably worse than the crime. Sting operations are used by law enforcement all the time. Sometimes you have to allow smaller crimes to occur so that you can capture the people behind far bigger crimes.

The real problem is all the attempts to stonewall and shirk responsibility. The NRA, which has long demonized Holder for his support of gun control, will continue to put pressure until he goes down, if possible. Naturally they'd try to destroy Obama with this too.

Around here we've written about this a number of times, including http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/07/fast-furious-faux-fallacies.html">a wonderfully brief synopsis that JadeGold submitted.

Now, this is not to say any operation that is ill-advised or poorly executed shouldn't be investigated and those responsible demoted or fired, if need be. But once more, the gunloons, in their phony outrage, have overreached.

"Phony outrage" is exactly what it is. On http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/08/even-liberals-get-danger-gunwalker.html">the Sipsey Street Irregulars it's daily fare. And http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/daniel-zimmerman/atf-death-watch-51/">Farago is next in line with the exaggerated coverage (propaganda).

So, what's it really all about? I'll tell you. It's the NRA vs the ATF. It's that simple. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is reviled by the NRA and many gun onwers as the symbolic representation of gun-rights opposition. ATF agents literally appear as the jack-booted oppressors who stand at the van of all common-sense gun control movements. As such they are the enemy of the Constitution and deserving of opprobrium.

http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/05/wayne-la-pierre-character-actor.html">Here's phoney outrage personified.

http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWraith]

2. "jack-booted oppressors who stand at the van of all common-sense gun control"

You mean like defining a 14 inch piece of shoelace as a machine gun?

[mikeb302000]

3. yeah, them's the ones n/t

[Oneka]

4. "I'll tell you. It's the NRA vs the ATF."

Really? It's that simple? You mean the NRA that waited several months,as news of this story trickled into mainstream, before saying one word about it?

The NRA vs the ATF? I think you're missing the entire point of this investigation.

The ATF agents, you know the ones who "literally appear as the jack-booted oppressors who stand at the van of all common-sense gun control
movements"?

Or did you mean the ATF agents, who risked their careers, and came foreward as whistle blowers to expose this scandal and those above them
in command who ordered it?


The NRA had not one thing to do with this investigation till months of comment on sites like this one, http://cleanupatf.org/forums/ and
the sypsey street site, (which i won't link here), as well as The War on Guns site.

So what's it really all about? I'll tell you. It's the citizens of the USA, attempting to hold government officials, who they have entrusted
with enacting and enforcing laws, to account for crimes against the people of the USA, and possible international crimes against the
people of Mexico. It's that simple.

[ileus]

5. Neither the NRA or ATF write bills...

[Oneka]

6. ATF: "we don't need no steenkin bills"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x351572

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=444520&mesg_id=444520

[Atypical Liberal]

7. "Sometimes you have to allow smaller crimes to occur..."

Professor Winkler goes on to point out that the cover-up is probably worse than the crime. Sting operations are used by law enforcement all the time. Sometimes you have to allow smaller crimes to occur so that you can capture the people behind far bigger crimes.

Yeah, except these small crimes have resulted in the death of two federal agents (at least, I've lost count) and who knows how many other people.

Now, this is not to say any operation that is ill-advised or poorly executed shouldn't be investigated and those responsible demoted or fired, if need be. But once more, the gunloons, in their phony outrage, have overreached.


"Phony outrage" is exactly what it is. On the Sipsey Street Irregulars it's daily fare. And Farago is next in line with the exaggerated coverage (propaganda).

So, what's it really all about? I'll tell you. It's the NRA vs the ATF. It's that simple. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is reviled by the NRA and many gun onwers as the symbolic representation of gun-rights opposition. ATF agents literally appear as the jack-booted oppressors who stand at the van of all common-sense gun control movements. As such they are the enemy of the Constitution and deserving of opprobrium.

Except gun owners aren't stupid, despite what you think of them.

Gun owners remember Eric Holder floating the idea of another assault weapons ban shortly after taking office.

Gun owners are well aware of the attempts to institute gun control via treaty.

Gun owners are well aware of the attempts to use crime problems in other countries as an excuse to curtail firearm rights in our country.

Gun owners are well aware of the fact that all rifles, let alone assault rifles, are hardly ever used in crime in this country, and account for half as many homicides as hands and feet.

So it's not too hard to imagine that this gun running exercise was an attempt to trump up a case to support all of the above. If assault weapons can't be demonized here in the USA, because one, they are hardly ever used in murder and two, because they are virtually indistinguishable from semi-automatic hunting rifles, then maybe it was decided to try another angle.

It's not phony outrage. It's understandable skepticism.

Trying to down-play the magnitude of the gunwalker fuck-up is hardly strengthening your case.

[DWC]

8. Touche' n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

10. That about sums it up. Thank you for that post.

[michreject]

9. Are you fucking serious??

the cover-up is probably worse than the crime


One of the guns was used in the murder of a Boarder Patrol agent, and you think the cover up was more serious!

[Hoopla Phil]

12. Yes, he is serious. You got to break a few eggs to make an omelet don't ya know.

Disgusting criminal action on the part of the ATF IMO.

[SteveM]

22. 'Tis only a shower. nt

[PavePusher]

11. Fucking seriously?

"Sometimes you have to allow smaller crimes to occur so that you can capture the people behind far bigger crimes."

You seem to think that the deaths of U.S. and Mexican Citizens fall into the realm of "smaller crimes"...

Go. Fuck. Yourself.

[Hoopla Phil]

13. Anti's seem to go down this road in being more and more absurd don't they?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Yes and the fail is particularly strong in this spammer

[rl6214]

42. Murder is NOT a "smaller crime" Murder is a MAJOR CRIME

So you can't allow it to happen.

You are entirely correct in you post.

ETA: unrec for blog spamming.

[PavePusher]

47. Ummm... I think you replied in the wrong place? n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. so much fail in this OP.

"Sometimes you have to allow smaller crimes to occur so that you can capture the people behind far bigger crimes."

"gunloons"

"It's the NRA vs the ATF."

sheesh.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. On all of hos post, not to mention the blog spamming

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

18. but JadeGold's synopsis is demonstrably false.

and offers flimsy to bullshit evidence. It even contradicts the ATF. The vast majority of the weapons enter through the southern border and abroad. Stolen from military depots in Central America,as well as abroad from Vietnam, China, North Korea. That fact has been covered by Latin American media, Wikileaks, stratfor.com and other sources.

The guns with US markings are traced to the US. That includes US made M-16s from Vietnam, local military depots etc. Those are still a minority of weapons.

You don't get machine guns and rocket launchers from a gun shop in Texas.

[DanTex]

19. Some good points here.

The fact that some of the guns the ATF lost track of were used in crimes is indeed an outrage. Nevertheless, it's clear, as you point out, that the glee by right-wingers and NRA types on this issue is based on their personal dislike of the ATF, and the desire to link this to Holder and embarrass the Obama administration. Most people look at this and say, OK, the ATF messed up, some people should lose their jobs, but this doesn't mean we should scrap the ATF, any more than a police scandal means we should do away with the police.

Moreover, one good thing that's come out of all this is increased awareness of the fact that lax US gun laws are fueling gang violence in Mexico. Indeed, it's strange to watch the gun extremists so upset about the particular guns the ATF lost track of, and at the same time be so dismissive of the fact that the US is providing huge numbers of the weapons used by Mexican drug gangs (and, yes, I've seen the FOX story downplaying the numbers). That's what makes the outrage so phony. Yes, some people lost their lives due to the ATF guns, and that is tragic. But far more people have lost their lives due to guns that the ATF was not tracking -- the ATF guns, after all, constitute a tiny fraction of the total number of guns trafficked illegally to Mexico. But I've never heard any "pro" express any outrage for people killed by these non-ATF US guns. Makes you wonder...

And that was the reason for Fast and Furious in the first place. The ATF was trying to disrupt the trafficking. They botched the operation, and the people responsible should lose their jobs, fine. But investigating the massive amount of gun trafficking into Mexico is a good thing to do. Because if we simply ignore the problem, thousands more will lose their lives due to these illegal guns. The ATF made mistakes executing an operation. But those who would ignore or downplay the role of US guns in Mexican gang violence are intentionally supporting policies which lead to far more lost lives than one botched operation.

Come to think of it, 30,000 Americans lose their lives to guns each year. Innocent people, cops, children, each just as tragic as the two agents killed by the ATF guns. Point this out to the gun zealots, and they shrug the number off, something about "guns don't kill people". But I guess that depends on which gun -- because apparently ATF guns do kill people.

[spin]

21. It sounds like you are saying, "The end justifies the means."

While it is true that a percentage of the firearms that the Mexican drug cartels use come form the United States, it is also obvious that the number from Mom and Pop gun stores is even smaller. Many of the weapons that ended in cartel hands were provided by the U.S. government as aid to the Mexican government or other nations in Central or South America. Government corruption and desertion from the Mexican military is responsible for these weapons.

Let me ask you a simple question. Why do the cartels obtain their fully automatic assault weapons, grenades and rocket launchers from. If you believe it is from gun stores, journey to one and see if you can find any for sale over the counter.

MEXICO UNDER SIEGE
Drug cartels' new weaponry means war
Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and antitank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.

By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson

March 15, 2009


Police officers drive past a burning police vehicle in Zihuatanejo, Mexico. In a three-week period, five grenade attacks were launched on police patrols and stations. (Felipe Salinas / Associated Press / February 15, 2009)

Reporting from Zihuatanejo, Mexico, and Mexico City -- It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

***snip***

The enhanced weaponry represents a wide sampling from the international arms bazaar, with grenades and launchers produced by U.S., South Korean, Israeli, Spanish or former Soviet bloc manufacturers. Many had been sold legally to governments, including Mexico's, and then were diverted onto the black market. Some may be sold directly to the traffickers by corrupt elements of national armies, authorities and experts say.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,7497626,full.story

Mexican drug gangs being armed with U.S. weapons

By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 8:01 PM on 28th April 2011

Mexican drug cartels are being armed with weapons supplied by the U.S., leaked documents show.

The WikiLeaks files, written by U.S. military chiefs, reveal that grenades and light anti-tank weapons seized from drug traffickers in Mexico and Colombia were from the U.S.

A cable entitled ‘Honduras: Military weapons fuel black market in arms’ states that the serial numbers of arms taken from drug gangs coincide with those supplied by the U.S. to the Honduran Armed Forces.

U.S. arms: WikiLeaks file claims weapons seized from Mexican drug gangs were made in America

According to the Defense Intelligence Agency file, the brands and serial numbers seized equipment are the same as a shipment sent to the Second Infantry Battallion in Honduras.

‘The has become aware that light anti-tank weapons (LAWs) and grenades supplied to Honduras under the Foreign Military Sales program were recovered in Mexico and Colombia,’ the cable said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1381630/WikiLeaks-Mexican-drug-gangs-armed-U-S-weapons.html#ixzz1UMrasFIl

I fully support efforts to stop any gun smuggling from American gun stores into criminal hands either here or in Mexico. I do not support the ATF management insisting that gun stores sell firearms to known straw purchasers and smugglers as part of a foolish scheme that even the ATF agents on the ground couldn't support.

[DanTex]

28. Like I said, the ATF made mistakes.

The point is that the glee we are seeing from the right-wing gun zealots is based on hatred of the ATF and the Obama administration. They haven't had a big scandal yet, and they think this might be the one. But it's not. It's just an operation that went badly.

The much bigger story here is the fact that huge numbers of guns are going from FFLs to Mexican drug gangs, and the lax gun laws in the US facilitate this. Yes, there are also weapons coming from elsewhere, but that doesn't change the fact that many weapons come from FFLs -- after all, nobody is claiming that 100% of the weapons are trafficked from the US. And the ATF is right to mount operations to try and combat this. And it's might be dangerous.

But doing nothing is worse. The reason I think the outrage is phony is that, like I said, the ATF guns are a tiny fraction of all guns smuggled from the US into Mexico. The gun zealots seem to be upset only about the guns from the ATF operation, and not about the rest of the illegally smuggled guns.

[spin]

30. Like I said,..

I fully support efforts to stop any gun smuggling from American gun stores into criminal hands either here or in Mexico. I do not support the ATF management insisting that gun stores sell firearms to known straw purchasers and smugglers as part of a foolish scheme that even the ATF agents on the ground couldn't support.

I believe that the overwhelming majority of gun owners support the enforcement of existing laws. If the gun smuggling continues it may lead to another assault weapons ban or other gun legislation that would impact our right to buy or own firearms. We do not want that. We want the laws that currently exist to be enforced and the agencies involved to have the funds and the equipment to do their job.

Some gun owners believe that this failed operation might have been part of a nefarious plot by the Obama administration to implement gun control "under the radar". That why is is important for the administration to fully cooperate with the investigation as any appearance of a coverup makes this theory look more plausible.

[gejohnston]

24. and you get your information from where?

In other words, the ends do justify the means. Let's violate international law, Mexican law with out telling them, US law.

Moreover, one good thing that's come out of all this is increased awareness of the fact that lax US gun laws are fueling gang violence in Mexico. Indeed, it's strange to watch the gun extremists so upset about the particular guns the ATF lost track of, and at the same time be so dismissive of the fact that the US is providing huge numbers of the weapons used by Mexican drug gangs (and, yes, I've seen the FOX story downplaying the numbers). That's what makes the outrage so phony. Yes, some people lost their lives due to the ATF guns, and that is tragic. But far more people have lost their lives due to guns that the ATF was not tracking -- the ATF guns, after all, constitute a tiny fraction of the total number of guns trafficked illegally to Mexico. But I've never heard any "pro" express any outrage for people killed by these non-ATF US guns. Makes you wonder...

Our "lax gun laws" does not have anything to do with it. More to do with lax security in Central American military depots and Mexico's inability to secure their southern border.

Are these from Fox?

http://www.elpasotimes.com/communities/ci_18465182

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/counting_mexicos_guns.html

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112616/drug-gangs-help-themselves-to.html

[DanTex]

25. Whether the number is 90 percent, or 36 percent, or something else...

Whether the number is 90 percent, or 36 percent, or something else, there's no dispute that thousands of guns are being illegalIy transported into Mexico by way of the United States each year.

From the factcheck article you cited. And I can agree with that -- somewhere between 36% and 90% trafficked from the US. Our lax gun laws most certainly are contributing to Mexican gang violence. Your argument is just the usual black-and-white thinking of the gun lobby: yes, there are also weapons from other sources, but there are also huge numbers coming from FFLs.

Like I said, the ATF definitely made mistakes during this operation. But gun trafficking is a serious problem, and pretending the problem doesn't exist won't make it go away.

[gejohnston]

26. I never said it was not a problem

But I suggest you read the rest of the articles. here is some more.


http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=390473&CategoryId=14091

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112594/cable-guatemalan-military-selling.html

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/19/110745/wikileaks-dispute-claims-us-ambassador.html

Here is the key part from Stratfor

According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.

The assumption on your part is that are semi auto straw purchased from gun shops. It does not say that, nor does the ATF. That would also include US manufacture, including M-16s from Vietnam, Iran Contra left and stolen military weapons entering through the southern border.

[mikeb302000]

38. thanks for those points, DanTex

The exaggerated outrage is what gets me. The deaths of several kids a day is nothing, a small price to pay for all that freedom, but in this issue the ATF agent who was killed, as tragic as that was, has been elevated into something of a rallying point to take down the ATF and Holder and Obama. Ridiculous and hypocritical is what it is.

[gejohnston]

44. I am guessing that

You have not been following it through McClatchy and Stratfor.com. Or any other news source that does not reinforce your own opinions. That is the problem with the US. The right watches only Faux and the Left only reads Think Progress and watches parts of MSNBC. They think they have all of the truth on their side. They are all mistaken and equally misinformed.
Sorry, the "deaths of several kids a day" does not have anything to do with US gun laws. It is the war on drugs. To put it quite bluntly, the typical pot and coke head contributes more to gun and gang violence than all of us combined. How? Their money pays for it. If you were to do even the most rudimentary research on the subject with an open mind, you will find that "our exaggerated outrage" is very appropriate. A simple search through any search engine and you will find the work done by professional journalists and intelligence analysts. I can list some of them here. Here is a start. You once claimed that you are being objective, which you have not. May I make a suggestion from one blogger to another? Deeper research and discussion would offer something new. Parroting propaganda and using "common sense" on an issue you seem to know little about is not good writing nor is it good business.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/smallarms/IssueBrief3ArmsTrafficking.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,7497626,full.story
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=390473&CategoryId=14091
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090708_mexico_economics_and_arms_trade
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112595/cable-lax-honduran-controls-on.html
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112594/cable-guatemalan-military-selling.html
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/04/21/112616/drug-gangs-help-themselves-to.html
http://www.elpasotimes.com/communities/ci_18465182

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[iverglas]

27. phoney outrage is their stock in trade

They being the right wing.

Phoney outrage on the part of the gun militant brigade of the right wing about violence against women and about gun control measures that allegedly discriminate against minorities.

Phoney outrage on the part of the "free speech" brigade of the right wing about violence against African-Americans and the Holocaust (I refer to extremist anti-choice organizations exploiting those events to demonize women) ... and about efforts by the left to prevent the public display of hateful "speech" like that on campuses.

Phoney outrage like that from David Horowitz and his "free speech" irregulars every time they hoke up an event they can get phonily outraged about the resonse to.

It is their stock in trade. They are VICTIMS, don't you know??

[friendly_iconoclast]

31. And teabaggers will describe Pres. Obama as some combination of Pol Pot and Bin Laden.

Which proves only that the world is chock-full of people of who will loudly and repeatedly claim they know what's "really"
going on, and that those who disagree are either a) in on it, or b) hapless dupes.

Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer" is just as relevant as ever- The TBs are all driving different vehicles, they will all swear up and
down that 'their car is the best', and they're all headed down the same highway in the same direction while hotly denying that
they're doing so...

[iverglas]

32. not much to do with the phoney outrage of the right wing

or its gun militant brigade there, though.

Not that the Tea Party isn't a practitioner of it.

Their hoked up debt ceiling crisis might be a better example. ;)

In a more comical instance, we have their hoked up outrage over the comment about lipstick and pigs.

Of course, those types do love to accuse their adversaries of the same practice. The best defence is a good offence and all, and it's hard to beat them at being offensive.

[iverglas]

29. never knew jadegold myself

but we've been tarred by the same brush on occasion. ;)

http://progunprogressive.com/?m=20070831

... sorry, all I can get to is google's cached version:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dgNtW-ul6QoJ:progunprogressive.com/%3Fm%3D200708+%22jadegold%22+iverglas&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&source=www.google.ca

The link itself may not be quite catholique as they say in Quebec: I know the website owner was a member of DU at one time but I don't know whether that is still the case. ;) As was the one with the numerical name mentioned there: once and former in that case I'm quite positive. That one's still going strong (follow the links from the cached page above to the one it links to, to the link to the blog of the poster in question). Hey, speaking of self-promotion, that progunprogressive one used to link to his thing here quite a bit, as I recall ...

I believe jadegold and I may at one time have been together in the top ten of the pantheon of DUers that the right wing / gun militants love to hate. Say hello!

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. Thanks for that cached link. I found this bit somewhat amusing:

Aside from Bryan Miller and Robyn Ringler’s blogs deleting comments and the Brady Bunch simply turning them off, has anyone forgotten that my gay rights loving, global warming fearing, biodiesel brewing, abortion rights favoring, flag-burning-shouldn’t-be-banned-believing, concerned about healthcare costs arse has been banned from DU several times, had comments zapped on Washington Monthly, been banned from Democrats.com, been chased off TPM Cafe by hordes of people insisting that my gun possession is a sign of mental illness, and been repeatedly told by the Kelli wannabes over on DKos that I’m really a stealth conservative?

Their ejection from DU is no doubt due to their Gilbert Gottfried-level abrasiveness, but I note that posters with similar ratings on the GG scale not only survive, but thrive here.

Some animals are *still* more equal than others...

[iverglas]

34. awww, "banned from DU several times"?? (edited)

Shurely not. No one does things like register at DU under a different name after being banned. Certainly not in the Guns forum!

"chased off TPM Cafe by hordes of people insisting that my gun possession is a sign of mental illness"
- I have no idea what that place is, but I won't be taking that characterization of the hordes' reasons as gospel. ;)

"been repeatedly told by the Kelli wannabes over on DKos that I’m really a stealth conservative"
- now there, I think we may be closer to, um, objective truth ...


Their ejection from DU is no doubt due to their Gilbert Gottfried-level abrasiveness

How would you know? I think my theory is way better. I was here.



edit - here we go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=180378&mesg_id=180902

which links to these search results

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awww.progunprogressive.com++iverglas&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

in one of which we have the link to

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=118586&mesg_id=119682

(well, to the reply from the admin of the site in question to that one ... and yes, sniff, he's a tombstone)

(and yikes, I was wrong: just ran across a post by the numerically named poster in issue, and the profile is still hidden!)

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. I must concur with your estimate. That's going past 'abrasive' to 'abusive'

Mind you, I still disagree with the notion that 'advocacy for gun ownership = conservatism'.

[iverglas]

36. well gosh

Mind you, I still disagree with the notion that 'advocacy for gun ownership = conservatism'.

So do I.

I don't fall into step with USAmerican idiosyncracies when it comes to language. Right wingery is right wingery. Conservatism is another thing (and it isn't what the current Conservative Party is in Canada).

And you can say "advocacy for gun ownership" all you like, but it still won't represent what I talk about. I advocate that people who live in isolation in areas where there are large unfriendly mammals with large teeth and long claws own guns, for example, myself.

[mikeb302000]

39. thanks for the history. I'll say hello n/t

[DissedByBush]

37. "As such they are the enemy of the Constitution"

I can agree with that.

[mikeb302000]

40. well then,

count me as a proud enemy of that part of the Constitution called the 2A.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. By all means, feel free to try and repeal it if you sincerely believe that.

Unless and until you do manage such a thing, you are in no wise different than John Woo, Alberto Gonzales, John Ashcroft, or
Dick Cheney in your contempt for the Constitution.

[mikeb302000]

46. repealing is not necessary

over the next few years people will begin to realize they'd been bamboozled by the NRA and the gun-rights fanatics. The 2A will slip back into insignificance, like the 3A.

[Oneka]

48. Good luck with that.

For many of the roughly 80,000,000 gun owners who live here
In the USA, the second amendment will NEVER become insignifigant.

In the wake of the Heller, and McDonald ,supreme court decisions,
the tide is quickly turning exactly opposite of that which you advocate.

So how does it feel to be an enemy of the 2A, and be pitifully
losing the battle at the same time?

[DissedByBush]

43. How does it feel to be an enemy of freedom?

I have a general disgust for anyone who supports the curtailment of any of our dwindling rights.

[gejohnston]

45. which means

the ends justify the means, including dishonesty. Thanks for the heads up.