A relative of mine says he saw members of the Iron Horsemen M/C gang openly carrying at a restaurant

[jpak]

he works at in southern Maine - is the endpoint of open carry insanity?

Gangs with a criminal history flagrantly intimidating the public?

Apparently it is

Open carry = the suckage

yup

[GKirk]

1. If they are felons and known

to the police their open carry should get them a closed jail cell shortly.

[iverglas]

5. howzat?

In jurisdictions where open carry is legal, cops may not make enquiries as to the identity of the persons doing the carrying. If they do, they get sued by some gun militant or other.

I've been wondering aloud about this for some time now.

Unless the cop has reasonable grounds to believe the person is carrying a firearm in public illegally and thus may arrest the person -- i.e. has sufficient personal acquaintance with the person to identify them from personal knowledge, and I might not want to rely on that if I were a cop -- what?

[TheWraith]

6. Again, you seem to be making up laws for your own amusement.

Do us all a favor and google search for "Terry stop." It's the procedure a police officer engages in when they have reasonable suspicion of a crime occurring, for instance if someone with gang markings and a weapon. You are also required to, at a minimum, give the police officer your name, which can then be run against felony records.

[iverglas]

8. gang markings and a weapon?

Do us all a favor and google search for "Terry stop." It's the procedure a police officer engages in when they have reasonable suspicion of a crime occurring, for instance if someone with gang markings and a weapon.

Yowsers, if that's what yer laws allow for, you have some serious problems with those "freedom of speech" and "freedom of association" thingies in your constitution.

Well would you look what google found me in a split second.

https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=24+N.M.L.+Rev.+463&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=640ac53f45dc696a8ef3f624daa46e40

CRIMINAL LAW-Terry Stops and Gang Members in New Mexico: State v. Jones

Dang, pay per view, of course. The google results list shows:
"Second, gang indicators are not a sufficient basis for a Terry stop."

Want to look it up for us? Maybe there's a higher court decision that takes precedence ...

[TheWraith]

11. Okay, I'll explain it for you simply.

"Yowsers, if that's what yer laws allow for, you have some serious problems with those "freedom of speech" and "freedom of association" thingies in your constitution."

I seriously doubt Canada is any different, unless you people magically don't have crime, or DO have telepathic police. A Terry stop is the same as a police officer pulling over someone who is driving erratically. The police officer has reason to believe there may be illegal activity, they're allowed to make inquiries. How that infringes on freedom of speech or association, you'll have to explain.

"Dang, pay per view, of course. The google results list shows:
"Second, gang indicators are not a sufficient basis for a Terry stop."

Want to look it up for us? Maybe there's a higher court decision that takes precedence ..."

Of course gang indicators aren't sufficient basis for a Terry stop, because the standard is reasonable suspicion THAT A CRIME IS BEING COMMITTED. Displaying gang affiliation, or even being in a gang, is not illegal. Furthermore, since under the rules of a Terry stop the police officer is allowed to check for weapons, the restrictions on the use of Terry stops is intended to prevent the police from using it as an excuse to stop and search anyone they dislike.

However a member of a known violent group, who is carrying a firearm, would certainly be grounds for a police officer to inquire as to whether that person was in legal possession of the firearm.

[X_Digger]

13. I disagree with your last sentence..

Being a member of a 'known violent group' is not illegal. If that were the case, cops would have trumped up even more charges against groups like the Black Panthers on that pretext.

Talk to a cop in a gang unit sometime, it's an eye-opening experience. Some of the bad apples (cops) like to trump up charges of loitering or disturbing the peace as a pretext for a terry stop. Others just attempt to bully the gang members into submitting to a search without a warrant.

[TheWraith]

14. No, but being a felon with a firearm is illegal.

I seriously doubt any court is going to frown on a Terry stop for a member of a known violent gang, who has an exposed firearm.

[iverglas]

17. dog all bleeding mighty

You're big on logical fallacies, are you? Read up on petitio principii lately?

No, but being a felon with a firearm is illegal.

You are BEGGING THE QUESTION. You are ASSUMING YOUR CONCLUSION.

How does the cop KNOW the person is a "felon" without making exactly the kind of enquires they are NOT PERMITTED to make?

[rl6214]

109. "dog all bleeding mighty"

What is this supposed to mean? Do you have a hatred of dogs? Is this a Can-a-da things?

Seriously, I want to know because I have seen you post dog this and dog that before. I would just like to know the meaning.

[TheWraith]

126. The police officer doesn't have to KNOW that a crime is being committed in order to make inquiries.

By your logic, the police have to have a breathalyzer test already done on someone to pull them over on suspicion of DUI.

You are simply arguing based on your belief that it's illegal for the police to even find out if someone is legal to carry.

[iverglas]

142. how about you stop pretending that your stupid statements are "my" "logic"?

By your logic, the police have to have a breathalyzer test already done on someone to pull them over on suspicion of DUI.

By law, with which my actual logic tends to coincide, a cop has to have reasonable grounds for doing this, which generally consist of things like, oh, observing someone driving through a red light. (Except where the law provides for random stopping and breathalyzing.)

What "logic" you were citing, I can't even imagine.

What's your own problem with this "reasonable grounds for belief" stuff? I'm not going to guess or ascribe stupid ideas to you. I'll let you speak for yourself:

The police officer doesn't have to KNOW that a crime is being committed in order to make inquiries.

No one has said otherwise.

The cop does have to have reasonable grounds to believe that a crime is being committed.

The wearing of motorcycle gang costumes does not such grounds provide, I believe.

Nor does the wearing of a firearm.

Hence, the wearing of a firearm while wearing a motorcycle gang costume does not provide such grounds.

Pretty easy arithmetic.

[X_Digger]

18. Being a felon != being a member in a gang.

What reasonable suspicion would a cop articulate to a judge when the judge asks, "What made you stop Mr. Mongol?"

[iverglas]

16. you can seriously doubt anything you like

but if you'd read what I said sometime in the last week, or done a little investigation of your own, you would know there is no such thing as a "Terry stop" in Canada. In fact, no one is under any obligation ever to identify themself to a cop. Not even once they're arrested, although at that point they do have to submit to fingerprinting if the charge laid is one that provides for that.

A cop can make all the enquiries they like, but if the person being enquired of chooses not to enter into conversation or not to identify themself, the cop has two choices: arrest, if there are reasonable grounds as required, or walk away.


Displaying gang affiliation, or even being in a gang, is not illegal.

DUH. Neither is carrying a firearm if you're not ineligible. So neither is doing the two things simultaneously. So where does this "Terry stop" come into the situation at all? Is the gang get-up reasonable grounds to believe that the person carrying the firearm is ineligible and therefore committing a crime? I Don't Think So.


However a member of a known violent group, who is carrying a firearm, would certainly be grounds for a police officer to inquire as to whether that person was in legal possession of the firearm.

"However". Okey dokey. Because you sez so.

Not.

[S_B_Jackson]

39. What the police certainly can do is to take a couple of minutes and run the plates of

all motorcycles in the parking lot, and if ANY of those bikes is registered to a previously convicted felon, then that provides any LEO sufficient "reasonable suspicion" that they can in fact conduct a "Terry stop" on anyone carrying if they meet the physical descriptions of any of the now-identified individuals who are prohibited from carrying or possessing firearms.

[iverglas]

60. gee, what if they walked in?

Lordy.

[S_B_Jackson]

102. Gee, what if they did?

Clearly you've not watched police officers entering a parking lot or at a stop light - busily punching in plate numbers for "Wants and Warrants". For most, it's second nature to them...

I notice that you had no disagreement with how the police could in full-accordance with the law formulate a reasonable, articuable suspicion which would allow them to perform those "Terry stops" in the restaurant.

[iverglas]

143. clearly, you decided to pretend I said something I didn't

Clearly you've not watched police officers entering a parking lot or at a stop light - busily punching in plate numbers for "Wants and Warrants". For most, it's second nature to them...

And then came my question: WHAT IF THEY WALKED IN?

What if the individuals in question arrived at the location in question by shank's mare, under their own steam, by foot -- what if they WALKED in?

Yeesh.


I notice that you had no disagreement with how the police could in full-accordance with the law formulate a reasonable, articuable suspicion which would allow them to perform those "Terry stops" in the restaurant.

What I'm noticing is that I can't make a shred of sense out of that.

If a cop is able to identify an individual carrying a firearm as being ineligible to carry a firearm, then Bob's their uncle.

Since the cop is not permitted to make enquiries as to the identity of the individual in order to make that identification, and absent any other way of making the identification in easily imaginable circumstances, the cop seems to be me to be uncle-less.

[S_B_Jackson]

165. yeah right....those Bikers walked.

:rofl:

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Um..

"i.e. has sufficient personal acquaintance with the person to identify them from personal knowledge,"

That was the poster you were responding to's exact intention.

[iverglas]

61. eh?

"i.e. has sufficient personal acquaintance with the person to identify them from personal knowledge,"
That was the poster you were responding to's exact intention.

Um. The poster said "known to the police". This does not generally mean "the cop gazing on their countenance recognized them from personal acquaintanceship".

[AtheistCrusader]

69. Might be a regional thing.

That's what it means here, 'generally' or general-use.

[PavePusher]

52. "felons and known to the police"

Or, you can skip reading comprehension and jump straight to jello.

[AtheistCrusader]

70. Fuck you.

Jell-o is awesome.

[X_Digger]

74. Except for lemon. Gah. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

75. What's up with that.

Jell-o has been around what, a century? Why can't they get Lemon right?

[PavePusher]

77. Well played...

:toast: :rofl:

[RSillsbee]

103. Green Jello is Naaaasssss- TEE NT

[GKirk]

78. Not sure what was confusing about my comment....

...I was merely saying that if a police officer recognized someone on the street as a known felon (from arresting him before as one possibility) and saw him openly carrying a firearm that would give him reason to arrest that person.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. That might not be so easy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Horsemen

"<...>
One member of the Iron Horsemen was shot in a gunfight with Cincinnati Police on September 18, 2010. <14> Local media reported that a gang member opened fire on several identifiable police officers and 2 undercover officers as they approached JD's Honky Tonk and Emporium escorted by marked police cruisers. The two undercover officers were injured and the gunman that started the incident was killed in the gunfire."

Now, if you was a local cop and came upon this group of upstanding citizens sporting their guns, just what would you do?

[iverglas]

19. heh, I read that too

but I failed to ask myself that rather obvious question. ;)

[baldguy]

2. Intimidation is the whole point of open carry.

There is no other reason for it.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ileus]

25. gong on you....the point of OC is SD same as CC. A gun in plain view isn't intimidating...

it's there in plain sight....when holstered you can remain in a state of calmness knowing it's not being played with or in a unsafe condition. (always have the trigger covered)

[tortoise1956]

30. Really? Is that the best you can do?

It sounds like the only people who are intimidated are those who don't understand weapons and automatically assume they are bad. I would have no problem with OC as long as the person doing it is not acting irrationally - and no matter what some of the posters here think, OC is not an irrational act.

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. That's odd, one of your allies claims that OC is honest, and CC is 'deceptive'.

Seems y'all want it *both* ways. Like when you were against the "terror watch" lists before you were for them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=431371#431380

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3031131#3032492

[rl6214]

111. Glad you pointed that out

I was going to say the same thing. Awefully hypocritical isn't it.

[SteveM]

91. Try this the next time you encounter an open-carry person:

Sit down close to him, say "hi," and introduce yourself. Take it from there.

[Hoyt]

140. You need to be prepared to talk about bores and stuff.

[rl6214]

110. WRONG

If concealed carry is not legal then open carry may be the only option. Open carry is also much more prefered in the wilderness.

[wingzeroday]

4. streets

>Gangs with a criminal history flagrantly intimidating the public


Hug.

Let's hope this never happens with any other groups of lol i dunno...a more organized type.

[X_Digger]

7. ...

[iverglas]

9. so let's take it as one of those hypotheticals

... like ... what if one of the instructors at Virginia Tech had been toting a gun ...


What if this situation arose?

I've been quite curious for some time, myself.

[X_Digger]

12. If a cop recognized someone he knew was a felon, he could do a Terry stop and arrest as a..

'felon in possession'.

Otherwise, he'd have to have reasonable suspicion that a crime was about to, or had been committed. Absent articulable RS, he can watch them, but that's it.

Just like cops can't pull over motorists just to check if their license is suspended.

[iverglas]

15. yeah, I already said that

All of it.

So if a cop, or anyone, sees a bunch of guys dressed up in the costume of a murderous criminal organization and carrying firearms, there's not a damned thing they can do to investigate the situation or have it investigated.

Gotcha.

[X_Digger]

23. Beyond observation? No..

No more than a cop can stop someone in a car 'dressed up in the costume of a murderous criminal organization' just to see if their license is valid.

[Oneka]

49. Rep

Issa might be able to investigate something like that.

[ileus]

20. Was he a felon? is OC legal? OC intimidates who?

[jpak]

21. It was a large group of them - all carrying, all in colors - in a "Family Restaurant"

Welcome to your world

yup

[ileus]

22. so were they shooting up the place like in those old westerns?

[jpak]

24. If want to hang with these assholes with your family - you have my blessing

perhaps you can lecture them on "law abiding" and all that happy horseshit

yup

[ileus]

26. why must you call them names...did they brake any law? can't you let them eat in peace?

[jpak]

27. They are sociopaths and they suck

and no - they do not want ANYONE else to "eat in peace" - that is why they came roaring up to the place and openly displayed they fucking guns in a family restaurant

good luck with yer new BFF

they suck

yup

[ileus]

29. They didn't shoot up the place...everything was peaceful.

The best thing about OC is you can check out their selection of firearm and wonder exactly why that model.

1911, glock, sig, revolver....each gun tells a story about it's owner. When I'm in line and notice someone carrying I normally ask what they think of XXX....it's a real conversation starter normally. Same goes with the holster...leather? Kydex? they both tell a story.

[jpak]

33. No it wasn't - people left and the staff was concerned for their safety

including my relative - who really dd not enjoy the experience

which is why he complained to us about it

yup

[ileus]

34. who is us?

When I was a kid a biker gang rented an old cabinet shop below our house...I used to be intimidated riding my bicycle by them. However.com after waving and going by them the first 20 times I realized they were just concerned with doing their thing. They remained there for 10 years or so. Take out the guns and I'm sure the gang would still have been intimidating to the customers and staff.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

54. Sucks for you...

...Bikers are some pretty cool people. No reason whatsoever to feel intimidated by their mere presence. Not really their fault or problem if you're afraid of a bunch of guys who ride motorcycles.

[ileus]

65. Too many episodes of SOA

[iverglas]

144. actually, it sucks for business owners

whose customers are subject to such behaviour AND LEAVE.

Bikers are some pretty cool people.

Yeah, the Hells Angels are just a bunch of cool guys who raise money for children's charities. They don't kill anybody, they don't run guns, they don't traffic in narcotics, they don't have their finger in every piece of the modern organized crime pie ... and of course these Iron Horsement, they're just the same, none of them other killed a cop or other living thing ...

What utter nonsense you speak.

Not really their fault or problem if you're afraid of a bunch of guys who ride motorcycles.

And it's nobody's fault but yours that you choose to misrepresent any situation you might like.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

149. Shall we apply such guilt by association...

...to any other group of your choosing?

How about we take some of the more extreme actions of say, blacks, gays or Mexicans, and assume all of them are cut from the same cloth?

Most HA's actually are pretty cool. As long as you don't bother them, they leave you alone. Simple as that.

Bottom line is, they did nothing illegal. Someone was just bothered that they showed up.

[iverglas]

153. if they walk around displaying firearms?

You betcha.

Most HA's actually are pretty cool. As long as you don't bother them, they leave you alone. Simple as that.

Absolutely beyond belief.


Bottom line is, they did nothing illegal.

Actual fact is: NOBODY KNOWS. Nobody knows whether they were carrying firearms legally or illegally.

And nobody could have found out.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

154. No it isnt beyond belief

I know a few - and they're just like anyone else. Dont screw with them, and they wont screw with you.

As far as if they did anything illegal, since all we have is hearsay and open carry is legal in that area, we must assume what they did was legal until proven otherwise.

[PavePusher]

57. Why are you living in fear?

You have not documented any actions they performed that warrented leaving the establishment.

With the evidence presented, I can only assume your relative is bigoted in some fashion... and that you endorse her/his philosophy. Shameful....

[jpak]

72. My relative is a sane young man who knows danger when he sees it

and biker gangs with guns have them for one reason only

intimidation

yup

[PavePusher]

76. You can tell their criminal history and day-to-day conduct...

by their clothing?

Some words come to mind... "profiling"... "stereotyping"... I'm sure there are more.

Again, what documented criminal behavior did he report?

[jpak]

81. That group does have a criminal history - sorry to disappoint

and they stereotype themselves

yup

[We_Have_A_Problem]

83. Members of the group may...

...but that does not mean the total membership does.

[iverglas]

145. yeah, some people join criminal biker gangs

for the cool hats.

They didn't have to commit crimes as their membership fee. Noooooo.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

150. And I'm sure you know just SOOOO much about...

...the inner working of 1% clubs.

Here's a hint Iverglas, committing crimes is not a membership fee or initiation rite except in the minds of Hollywood screenwriters.

Yes, I am positive I know a lot more about that world than you ever will.

[iverglas]

157. Actually, I do

I don't need to tell you how, but let's start by saying that I have read more than you can imagine about the subject, and my computer archives are full of it in connection with my work. Perhaps you've heard of the Montreal motorcycle gang wars? Not too likely.

Serving the real guys as a hanger-on / member of a puppet club is a definite prerequisite for eventual full patch. And you think that doesn't involve committing crimes? Who do you think does the dirty work for the inner circle?

I'm positive that you know slightly less than bugger all about these things, myself.

From the site cited earlier (very long document, this is fair dealing/use):

http://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/NathansonBackUp/CurrentEvents/2002_Q2.htm

Organized Crime in Canada:
A Quarterly Summary
April to June 2002
... Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs

... Gagne said he also had to do security detail when higher-ups went to bars and restaurants. He'd go alone and armed and have no contact whatsoever with the biker bosses. If he saw someone suspicious go to the washroom, he would follow to make sure the person wasn't going to come out shooting.

Other lower ranks would surround the table when the bosses sat.

Gagne's main job was to control drug sales in a park on Ste. Catherine St. E. in Montreal. He said he ran a crew of pushers affiliated with the Nomads, an elite Hells chapter headed by Boucher. He said he worked for a hangaround Nomad named Paul Fontaine. Another of Fontaine's workers, Serge Boutin, paid Gagne between $700 and $1,200 every week, depending on sales.

From his salary, Gagne had to pay $200 a month for upkeep on the gang's clubhouse on Gilford St. and another $50 to help gang members behind bars buys snacks at the prison canteen. Then 10 per cent of his salary was given back for other gang expenses.

Gagne said he began at the bottom of the ladder as a hangaround with the Rockers, a puppet club of the Nomads. Gagne progressed to the Rockers, he said, but did not get to full patch before being arrested for the killings and turning crown witness. Rockers are there to serve the Nomads, and would call them all "mon oncle" - uncle.

He testified how he rounded up dealers from his territory during weekends and went to Boucher's sprawling South Shore compound. It wasn't a social visit - the lower ranks cleared the trees on Boucher's land in Contrecoeur so it would be easier to spot interlopers.

After someone is a full-patch Rocker, he can try to join the "big bosses" by giving up his Rocker vest and becoming a hangaround Nomad, the witness added. If people are good at crime, selling drugs and killing rivals, they can eventually become full-patch Nomads.

Source: George Kalogerakis. “A glimpse into bikers' secret world: Informant at murder trial tells jurors of operations within the Hells Angels.” Montreal Gazette. April 1 2002, p. A3.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

159. ROFL!

Oh Iverglas - you do make me laugh...

You really do.

Allow me to simply say this. I live in an area that is home to one of the "Big 4". I ride. I wear a cut. I know EXACTLY what the process is to become a patchholder.

Believe me when I say I have far more personal experience and knowledge of the 1% world than you, as a Canadian and a woman, will ever have.

Keep making a fool of yourself though. I am enjoying the humor break.

[iverglas]

162. forgive me

Believe me when I say I have far more personal experience and knowledge of the 1% world than you, as a Canadian and a woman, will ever have.

If I don't.

Your total absence of knowledge of what I know as a Canadian is just the starting point. It would appear to be based on your 100% faulty assumption that criminal biker gangs do not exist in Canada. A brief history for you:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/04/01/f-biker-gangs.html

The internecine biker massacre in Shedden referred to there -- one of the dead guys was the brother of an old and dear friend of mine (my friend is an academic, not a criminal biker).

Interesting that you should say "as a woman". Yeah, women don't make it into the inner circles, or even operate as hangers-on. How odd. Have you?

But anyway, believe me when I say I don't believe you.



html fixed

[We_Have_A_Problem]

163. Never said they dont exist.

You feel free to put words in my mouth though.

I do believe we're talking about motorcycle clubs here in the US, not Canada. I recognize facts have little meaning to you, but to the rest of us, they are important.

[iverglas]

164. I'm sure your anecdotes are amusing to your friends

http://www.economist.com/node/158794

Hells Angels, crime and Canada
The blood-stained “biker war” in Quebec is no mere incident of provincial police routine. It is the scum thrown up by a Canada-wide crime business

Mar 26th 1998 | MONTREAL | from the print edition

THE attack was classic gangster stuff, with a Canadian twist at the end. The five men surrounded a chalet in usually placid Stoneham, in the hills north of Quebec city, and peppered it with shots from semi-automatic rifles. Glass shattered, wood splintered and neighbours woke with a start. Then the men threw away their guns and fled into the dark—on stolen snowmobiles. Another day, another drama in Quebec’s long-running “biker war”.

In California on March 16th, the bikers of Hells Angels (their name, their spelling) began a week-long celebration of their 50th anniversary. On hand to video the festivity were—American cops apart—Canada’s federal Royal Canadian Mounted Police and men from police forces in at least three Canadian provinces. For this was more than a love-in of motorised beer-bellies: part of it, says the Mounties’ Jacques Lemieux, co-ordinator of a Canadian cross-force anti-biker squad, was a summit meeting of a global criminal organisation that majors in drugs, with sidelines in prostitution, illegal gambling, car theft, smuggling and extortion.

The Angels, police sources say, had five chapters worldwide in 1965, 45 by 1980 and 108 today; the latest opening was in Manaus, in the Brazilian Amazon. In Canada they were once a minor, if thuggish, nuisance in Quebec and British Columbia. Now they control more than 40 gangs across the country (though not, so far, in the heartland, Ontario). <They are now; they won the civil war in Ontario>

Control has been enforced by violence. “First they beat up members of gangs who refuse to distribute drugs for them, and if that doesn’t work they eliminate them,” says Mr Lemieux. No one was killed or even injured in the Stoneham shoot-up. But at least 60 people have died in a four-year-old conflict between the expanding Hells Angels and a homegrown Quebec gang, the Rock Machine. Many more have been wounded, often in bombings of bars frequented by bikers.

... With its fancy titles, its bluster and its vendettas, the biker war sounds like a western. “But this isn’t about macho honour or gang pride,” says one investigator. “It’s about business, market share and greed.” ... Above them all sit the bosses, in still better-cut suits. For this is indeed big, well-paying business. On east and west coasts, the Angels’ drugs industry is vertically integrated: they control the flow from source to street.

"Mom" Boucher, referred to in the article, is now in prison, along with a lot of his colleagues.

But they are just friendly, plush-toy distributing nice guys.

And of course women aren't in the inner circles; they are part of the inventory:

Another line of business for the Angels is commercial sex. This too has a foreign-trade component: they import women from Asia, and on one occasion shipped strippers to Iceland. And to cover their activities, and launder the proceeds, they run legitimate businesses as well.

Anyone who actually doesn't know what these people and their organizations are is wilfully blind. Anybody who knows and says different is something else.

[SteveM]

92. Hmm. Auto-induced "stereotyping." Save you the trouble? nt

[rl6214]

114. Do you stereotype all muslim looking youmg men when you

get on a plane?

Probably do.

Yup

[iverglas]

146. are you the one suggesting that "muslim looking"

is equivalent to displaying irrefutable signs of membership in a criminal gang?

Yes you are.

Congratulations. I guess we know what you are.

Yup.

[rl6214]

167. Making things up again, as usual

Who said anything about "irrefutable signs"?

And what is an irrefutable sign anyway? Nothing listed in the OP.

Making things up again I see.

Congratulations, we definately know what you are.

Yup

Yup

YUp

[We_Have_A_Problem]

118. Yeah, it couldn't possibly be for...

...reasons such as self-protection when you're on the road, or they're just on their way to the range to practice...

YOU assume intimidation because of your own personal fears, not because of any overt act on their part.

That's your problem jpak.

[gejohnston]

136. Only if you are from an enemy gang

Me? Naww.

[iverglas]

151. do you peopleknow ANYTHING about criminal biker gangs??

What a bunch of naive ninnies, anyone reading these comments would have to say to themself.

http://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/NathansonBackUp/CurrentEvents/2002_Q2.htm

... Despite the successful raid, several members of the Bandidos biker gang, including a key group leader, escaped. Among the six Bandidos at large is Montreal chapter executive Normand Whissell, who has been on the run since he survived an attempt on his life January 1 near Montreal. Police believe the attempt of his life was orchestrated by the Hells Angels.

Police said they don't know where Whissell can be found. He has been pursued by unknown assassins who killed an innocent man in March who they apparently mistook for the biker leader. Yves Albert, a 34-year-old father of two, was pumping gas into his green Plymouth Intrepid outside a gas station in Saint-Eustache, Quebec when he was gunned down. Police speculated that Albert was shot by a member or associate of the Hell’s Angels.

Sources: Brian Daly. “Police raids deal blow to biker gang.” Canadian Press. June 5, 2002; Brian Daly. “Police say Bandidos leader still at large.” Canadian Press. June 6, 2002; Paul Cherry. “Bandidos bust nets license mole. SAAQ employee helped gang: cops.” Montreal Gazette. June 7, 2002.

Then there was the kid blown up by a Hells Angels car bomb in Montreal ...


Only if you are from an enemy gang

You? Naww. Feel safe, feel very safe, now.

And who cares if they kill cops anyhow ...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

155. I know a lot more than you do...

and from sources much more informed than a news report based on "police speculation".

[iverglas]

158. yes, I'm sure you have good friends in the Hells Angels

Whatever.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

161. I wouldnt call them "good friends"

But I know a few personally, as well as a few of the other big clubs.

[rl6214]

168. Wait, don't tell us

you used to be in a Hells Angels gang, right?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. judgmental much?

sheesh

[gejohnston]

32. our world?

sorry dude, not my world. I would kind of stand out in my bi focals and Smart Car.

[jpak]

35. Yup - Open Carry Mad Max World

and it sucks

[SteveM]

93. "Mad Max World." Where did you see such?

[AtheistCrusader]

43. You're right, this is why I conceal carry in your family restaraunt.

Wouldn't want anyone to get all wound up.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. That does not pass the smell test

[S_B_Jackson]

56. And this is a problem why?

I've eaten in "Family Restaurant"s when a large number of Banditos (another 1% MC here in TX) rolled up - in colors - and sat down in the same general area as my wife and children. They're a little loud, as most large parties get at restaurants, but not beyond the bounds of "normal". They ordered their meals, didn't disturb the the staff or other patrons and based upon the reactions of the waitress, they tipped rather well - and in cash.
:shrug:

It seems to be the result if one adopts the ancient philosophy, "Don't start none, won't be none."

[S_B_Jackson]

40. Yes, OC is legal in the state of Maine. (n/t)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. bfd

[Hoyt]

36. I bet our cowboys here eating there would have hands near their waist, and some also near ankles or

wherever they tuck their "backup" if they were eating at that restaurant. Hope someone doesn't pop a paper bag.

[ileus]

37. We're talking about bikers not indians...

Most all ccers realize ocers aren't a threat...

[gejohnston]

38. naaaaaaa

Now if a rival gang were to show up, we would duck with you. They would be shooting at each other.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. Your imagination is entertaining.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. I doubt this even happened

You both write bad fiction

[Hoyt]

50. Ah, to hear you guys -- there's a mugger behind every tree and a gang waiting to invade your home.

[ileus]

66. and a gang invading every Ryans evidently.

[rrneck]

71. Ah, to hear you

there's a gun or two sticking out of other people's pants.

[SteveM]

94. Uh, I think you miss-posted. Should be for OP. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

112. Not from me. In my part of SoCal there are threats in the trees

Cougars...

[Hoyt]

120. If in middle of nowhere, carry away. Just don't be too quick to shoot a cougar because you can.

What else do you need a gun to protect yourself from?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

132. Rattlesnakes

I live out in the middle of nowhere.

I have had uninvited guests lose dogs to the big cats.

[RSillsbee]

105. But none of them would pee their pants and run

screaming, like a little girl at the sight of the OCers

[Hoyt]

138. Another gunner who can't walk out of his house without a gun or two posting about others' "fear."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

141. I have no obligation to accomodate another person's irrational fears

There are those who quiver at the sight of a firearm being legally carried. That is not my problem, it is theirs

[iverglas]

148. how clever of you to say

I have no obligation to accomodate another person's irrational fears

And back at ya, eh?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

166. Fail

I am not the one with irrational fears of inanimate objects

[iverglas]

147. and has to toss the obligatory "little girl"

into the ring.

It's so telling, so very telling, that even a garden slug can see it.

[rl6214]

116. I'd take that bet

what do you want it to be...$100, $1000...come on, put your money where your mouth is.

[Hoyt]

139. Put your guns up, and figure out the logistics or recreating the scene.

[oneshooter]

124. Speaking of cowboys, where is the picture you promised? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. I seriously doubt this actually occured

The claim that they were a specific club with known criminal history is questionable. There are so many groups out there that are totally innocuous that look "bad ass" that unless your relative actually knew the group, I would question their veracity. One percenter groups do not eat at family restaurants and few if any would open carry since it is an invitation for police harassment.

This does not pass the smell test.

[ileus]

48. Someone's been watching old episodes of SOA? LOL

[jpak]

51. They were wearing colors - with their club name on them.

and they have a history of crime in Maine - and they were carrying Glocks

I have have no reason to doubt my relative

Open carry is legal in Maine

Weclome to your world

yup

[S_B_Jackson]

55. Are you sure that your relative could tell the

difference between a "Glock" from a Kahr, a S&W XD, an M&P, a Beretta, a Sig, or any other manufacturers polymer frame pistol? Somehow I doubt it...

Apparently a majority in the state of Maine do not share your views, if they did, it would be reflected in that state's laws.

[jpak]

63. Yes he can - and the more jerks that open carry, the more pressure there will be for repeal

yup

[We_Have_A_Problem]

80. Uh - yeah...

You go on believing that. Facts would seem to indicate otherwise.

[SteveM]

95. Reason for the Open Carry push? Continued silly gun-control efforts.

[PavePusher]

58. Maybe they got a group discount on the GLOCK's? n/t

[ileus]

67. the LEO discount...

[RSillsbee]

106. So they were all carrying the same type gun ?

what are the odds?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

113. So many "colors" look very similar...could just as likely have been the Blue Knights

Given your veracity record and agenda, the doubt is heavily focused on you as having made it up

[gejohnston]

135. That reminds me

I finally found a DVD of Electra Glide in Blue.

[oneshooter]

127. Well then, we know that 6pak has been raising a stink here for a long time. n/t

[drpepper67]

53. I saw M/C gang with toys strapped to their bikes for Toys for Tots.

The HORROR!

[jpak]

62. Were they the Hell's Angels, Outlaws, Iron Horsemen? Nope

try again

fail

[We_Have_A_Problem]

64. Could have been...

...all three of those groups do toys for tots...

[ileus]

68. BOTW?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

79. HUH? n/t

[drpepper67]

121. How would you know what I saw?

[PavePusher]

133. Here's something you need to learn how to do: "cite". Examples:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9047

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5vOR0vBIWc

[iverglas]

152. actually, Hells Angels do do this

Some of my family live in an area of semi-rural Ontario known to be infested with Hells Angels and I have a family member who inadvertently crossed them once and while he is still alive, some of his pets aren't. He got the message.

I tried to suggest obliquely to a bus driver in that area recently, while visiting, that she might want to tone down her talk about the drug dealing problem in the area while driving her bus; there are ears. When she was helping me off with my luggage and we were alone outside the bus, I explained: that the Hells Angels presence there was not to be scoffed at. Them? she asked -- but they just do charity stuff ...

It's truly unbelievable that people can believe this kind of thing, and I have a very hard time believing that any of our crime-wise colleagues here actually do.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

59. Where is the ...

...flagrant intimidation?

Sounds to me like a bunch of guys on bikes showed up to eat dinner.

If your relative is afraid of men on motorcycles, that's his problem. Perhaps he should consider never leaving his home?

[SteveM]

97. May have been some "fragrant intimidation;" otherwise, not much here. n t

[rrneck]

73. When I google

"motorcycle gangs Maine" this is the first item:

http://outlawbikers.blogspot.com/2009/01/iron-horsemen-motorcycle-club-accused.html?m=1

Just sayn'.

[jpak]

82. The google is not yer friend

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Horsemen

<snip>

Publicized crimes

Police arrested three Iron Horsemen for beating a man to death and assaulting another on April 20, 1997. The attacks took place on two different occasions at bars in Leonardtown, Maryland.<8>

Two members of the Iron Horsemen were sentenced to five years in prison, and another three were given sixteen years in total on June 26, 2008 for drug dealing. They sold methamphetamine and speed in the Western District of Kentucky between December 2003 and December 2005, and distributed between 50 and 200 grams each. Both the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) were involved in the case.<9>

On May 19, 2009, fifteen Iron Horsemen, including a State President, were convicted of drug trafficking at the District Court in Portland, Maine.<10> They smuggled cocaine and marijuana, which they obtained from drug cartels in Mexico, to Atlanta, Georgia and then Haverhill, Massachusetts before trafficking it to Maine where they distributed it throughout the state. The ring operated from 2004 until December 2007.<11> The DEA and ATF investigated the club for over a year and carried out the final raids on March 12, 2008.<12> During these raids, they arrested a total of 29 people and seized 10 kilos of cocaine, 600 pounds of marijuana, AK-47s, AR-15s, handguns and $37,000 in cash. The case was known as "Operation Trojan Horse".<13>

One member of the Iron Horsemen was shot in a gunfight with Cincinnati Police on September 18, 2010. <14> Local media reported that a gang member opened fire on several identifiable police officers and 2 undercover officers as they approached JD's Honky Tonk and Emporium escorted by marked police cruisers. The two undercover officers were injured and the gunman that started the incident was killed in the gunfire

<more>

these are the "law abiders" that open carry advocates defend

yup

[rrneck]

84. It appears to be

your "relatives" friend.

Cool story bro.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

85. Do you have actual proof...

...that any of those mentioned were in the restaurant?

If you do, then by all means, present it.

Otherwise, you're merely relying upon guilt by association to justify your relative's fears.

[jpak]

86. No, my relative is pathological liar and tells stories all the time

you found us out!!!1111

:rofl:

[We_Have_A_Problem]

87. Well that would make sense...

at least, far more sense than most of the other stuff you've said on this thread.

I mean, really jpak, all you've said is, your relative made a claim that members of a motorcycle club went to dinner and were carrying firearms in an open and legal manner.

Hardly a newsworthy event.

Its like saying your relative passed a motorcycle club on the road and they were all doing the speed limit...

[jpak]

88. If this is your vision of Amerika then Somalia is in great shape

yup

[We_Have_A_Problem]

89. It really bothers you...

...that people own guns and can carry them in public doesn't it?

[jpak]

96. Yes, it does - it is not the America I grew up in

and not the America most Americans want either

yup

[ileus]

98. OC has been around for as long as I can remember.

[jpak]

99. Not in the civilized parts of the US

yup

[We_Have_A_Problem]

100. All of America is civilized...

...and open carry is legal in many states.

I'm sorry you don't like it, I really am, but that's just too bad for you.

It wasn't that long ago that concealed carry wasn't even that big of a deal. Prior to the early 60's it was not uncommon - and usually didn't require a permit either.

Don't know how old you are, but I'm not sure what age you could be to have "grown up" in an America where open carry was never practiced.

[jpak]

104. Where I come from, "open carry" meant "opening day" not a meal at a family restaurant

open carry = suckage

yup

[We_Have_A_Problem]

115. Where would that be?

I have never heard of "open carry" meaning "opening day"...but hey - you may live in some really oddball place.

[gejohnston]

123. where were you?

Most carry laws are at least 100 years old to the best of my knowledge. Wyoming started a may issue CC in the 1880s (became shall issue in 1995, and the law repealed this year). Florida banned open carry in 1893.

[rl6214]

117. Maine is not civilized?

[gejohnston]

125. I don't know

I think in many ways Wyoming was more civilized than New York or New Jersey. Come to think of it, I think it is still the case.

[ileus]

128. Virginia isn't civilized?

[ileus]

131. Ohio isn't civilized?

[PavePusher]

134. Au contraire, mon ami...

http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html

P.S. Your elitist bigotry is vile and unbecoming. Take it... elsewhere.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

101. Most Americans...

...do not seem to have a problem with it - at least judging by the ever increasing number of states with CCW and open carry legislation.

[gejohnston]

137. I would not say that. But I can't help but wonder if

someone had this on their mp3 player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGQt6GY8nKA

[Remmah2]

90. As they say in court.

Hearsay information is not considered admissible evidence. (Maybe you imagined your friend and maybe he/she imagined the incident.)

[Glassunion]

107. You sure it wasn't

The Dark Horse M/C gang, or the Iron Nation M/C Gang, or the Defiant Crew?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

119. Heck, for all we know...

...it could have been the local HOG chapter, and only one of them was armed.

[rl6214]

108. My brothers, wifes third cousin on her mothers isde has a fieind

that saw a person witness his friend telling a news reporter that his aunt had seen e gang member tell another gang member that he heard other gangs were going to carry guns into a restaurant.

[Katya Mullethov]

122. This relative

Wouldn't happen to be a retired volunteer firefighter would they ?

[rrneck]

130. From Moscow Idaho? nt

[YllwFvr]

129. Iron horsemen a 1%er group?