Applebee's Diner Shoots Mugger

[Hoopla Phil]

According to St. Petersburg Police, Smith and his girl friend, Lesley Tanner, 27, had parked their car in the Applebee's Restaurant parking lot, at 4700 4th St. North. They were preparing to go inside to get dinner at about 10:30 p.m.

Tanner first got out of the car and walked to the rear of the vehicle, where she was approached by Hauser, who wore a ski mask and drew a gun.

As Smith got out of the vehicle on the driver's side, he saw the suspect pointing a gun at Tanner. Smith drew his 380-caliber handgun, police said.

http://oldnortheast.patch.com/articles/applebees-diner-shoots-mugger

There are some apposed to restaurant carry because restaurants serve alcohol. THIS is exactly why restaurant carry is needed.

[fascisthunter]

1. my gawd... the insanity of promoting gun carrying on DU

[Hoopla Phil]

3. I think you forgot the sarcasm tag.

[SteveM]

4. Well, just hit the remote, and find another reality. nt

[gejohnston]

5. My god, promoting individual freedoms on a

liberal website. Shocking, just shocking

:wow: :yoiks:

[slackmaster]

7. The issue is having the choice to carry

Not carrying per se.

[one-eyed fat man]

18. You are right!

How is a mugger supposed to make a dishonest living when his victims don't co-operate?

You need a new shirt.



Just give them what they want and hope he doesn't hurt you or think you have a cute ass too.

[PavePusher]

21. Yah, how dare people stand up to criminals...

That was your point, right?

[geckosfeet]

2. I think most people understand why. Even in my whacky state, where the

gun laws defy logic, we can carry in restaurants and bars.

[SteveM]

6. Some interesting points in the article....

Evidently, the paper/site listed the would-be victim's address. When did that become a part of J-101? Nothing like having da thug's relatives driving by for a little chat.

Note also that the thug was claiming, even as his weight increased precipitously, that he was carrying a fake gun. It wasn't, but he still just had to do some lyin' even in extremis.

Also noted that this is the second instance of a citizen shooting the attacker. If the media wanted to promote something worthwhile, they would start a series of articles, punctuated with supporting stories & evidence (of which there is plenty), pointing to the inadvisability of thug-attacks on citizens. Perhaps this could be incorporated into prison indoctrination. In this manner, perhaps the perceptions of criminals will become instrumental in a reduction in this kind of crime.

Interesting play on the gun-control meme that "they'll just take your gun away."

[DWC]

8. If this keep up it just will not be safe

for a mugger in Florida to go to work.:)

Congratulations on 2 successful self defenses.

Semper Fi,

[Hoyt]

12. Also notice that in second case, the boyfriend wasn't packing, yet still stopped the robber.

[-..__...]

13. "yet still stopped the robber".

yeah... with the robbers own handgun.

Bold, but stupid move on Mr. Halls part.

Fortunately... he came out on top.

Which leaves me wondering... has Mr. Hall seen the light/gotten a wake up call, applied for a CCW license, and/or seeking advice on a decent carry firearm?

[Hoyt]

15. Sounds like our unarmed hero dude was doing fine before the robber's gun went off.

I suspect he would have prevailed even if robber's gun had not stopped things early.

Well, why don't you try to get in touch with the unarmed crime stopper and see? He might tell you just how irrational it is to carry a gun in public. And, I know -- there's a greater chance of one getting struck by lightening than shot by a gun, or some such BS. Seen any lightening rods?

[The Doctor.]

22. Huh?

Who said that there's a "greater chance of one getting struck by lightening than shot by a gun"?

Really?

Are makeup artists that prolific?

Either way, that's fucking stupid.

[GreenStormCloud]

26. Not true. As usual you distort what was actually said.

I am the one who originally did the research and first posted the lightning statistic. Here is the true statement. "You have a greater chance of being struck by lightning that being illegally shot and killed by a person with a CCW.

Your statement is a massive distortion of the truth.

[-..__...]

34. You "suspect"?

I suspect he would have prevailed even if robber's gun had not stopped things early.

So... you base your suspicion on a simple news report... regarding an incident you weren't present at?

Care to back up your "suspicion" with first hand knowledge of the incident?

[Hoyt]

37. Apparently, you "suspect" he wouldn't have prevailed if he hadn't shot the robber with his own gun.

What do you have to back up that assertion?

In any event, an unarmed man overpowered an armed criminal. You are so used to relying on a gun or two in your pants, you can't accept that happens every day.

[-..__...]

38. Where did I "suspect" anything about the possible outcomes?

Your suspicions don't change the fact that the victim did rely on a firearm in order to stop his attacker.

[Hoyt]

39. The unarmed guy essentially took the gun away from the perp.

Happens all the time, you just can't admit it.

[-..__...]

41. "All the time", huh?

Define "all the time"?

Several times per day?

A few per week?

A dozen or more times per year?

[Hoyt]

42. I'm sorry man, I don't have time to post to someone who needs everything explained to them.

[X_Digger]

43. Ahh, the school of 'cause I said so'..

No facts needed.

[DonP]

47. Remember Hoyt's "rules" - it's not a lie, he's "just making a point"

So he's free to pull "facts" from his nether regions and make shit up all the time and claim it was just "to make a point" and doesn't have to be true - and of course seldom if ever are true.

That's why we all give his posts and "points" all the credibility they so richly deserve.

That's why we're all still waiting for that picture of the "toter" with 2 guns sticking out of his pants that he said he had.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

65. All he writes is indeed bad fiction

[Marengo]

67. Can you provide a cite for that? N/T

[Atypical Liberal]

44. If you have a choice, most people would prefer not to get in a gun fight without a gun.

Sounds like our unarmed hero dude was doing fine before the robber's gun went off.

I suspect he would have prevailed even if robber's gun had not stopped things early.

I think most people, given a choice, would prefer not to get into a gun fight without a gun. The fact that this fellow was able to overpower is armed assailant is good, but I hardly think this should be recommended advice. More like what you have to do when you have no other choice.

And this is what gun control ultimately does - it gives victims of violent crime no other choice to resist other than to engage in a contest of physical strength with their attacker.

[Hoyt]

51. Most people -- by a wide choice -- make the choice everyday to walk down the street unarmed.

They return home unscathed and do it again the next day. Every time without putting anyone else at risk. A small percentage -- 3 to 4% -- aren't as rational.

[X_Digger]

52. 1 in 50 will be the victim of violent crime

Many more than will have a house fire

In the US there are 400,000 residential fires every year, and there are ~105,000,000 homes. Odds of a home fire? 1 in 263.

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Fire-Prevention/fires-factsheet.html

According to the DOJ, the rate of being the victim of a violent crime is 20 / 1,000 overall (as high as 27 / 1,000 for some groups like african americans.) That comes out to 1 in 50.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1743

[Hoyt]

53. Yet, only 3 to 4% see the need to carry a gun in public -- the risk is that low.

And, many of the 3 to 4% don't carry primarily for "defense."

[X_Digger]

54. More bullshit from the 'because I say so' king?

And, many of the 3 to 4% don't carry primarily for "defense."

Or do you have a cite to back that up?




Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Hoyt]

58. Yea, the odds of getting colon cancer in one's lifetime is 1/17. The odds you fear are much lower.

Do you deny that 4% or so feel the need to pack? That shows just how low odds are for most people and how irrational those who fear your odds are. Get a grip on reality.

[X_Digger]

59. And if you're over 40, you should have a colonoscopy every five years..

And having a fire extinguisher is a reasonable precaution based on the risk and the consequences of needing one and not having it.

Got a cite for:

And, many of the 3 to 4% don't carry primarily for "defense."

Or is it just yet another in a long line of fact-free innuendo?

[Atypical Liberal]

70. The risk is low that I will ever have a flat tire or house fire, too.

Yet I still carry a spare tire and have insurance.

We don't just carry useful tools because the chances are high we will need them. We also carry them because the cost of having them and not needing them is very low compared to the cost of needing them and not having them.

[GreenStormCloud]

71. Yes, the annual risk of being a victim of violent crime is low.

But you are only looking at part of the problem. The loss if I happen to be one of those who is a victim can be severe, so I am armed, just in case. And I do not place any others at risk by my being armed.

[Atypical Liberal]

69. And I respect that choice.

Most people -- by a wide choice -- make the choice everyday to walk down the street unarmed. They return home unscathed and do it again the next day. Every time without putting anyone else at risk. A small percentage -- 3 to 4% -- aren't as rational.

And I respect that choice. I don't carry a firearm myself - too much hassle and I am fortunate enough to live an a low-crime area.

But I also respect those people who decide to carry a firearm. They are completely rational, and they are also less likely to commit crimes than the rest of the population.

[oneshooter]

61. Is there a chance of seeing your promised "cowboy picture"?

[ileus]

16. I checked out a really nice compact CZ 40S&W over the weekend.

I was impressed. The decocker works a lot like a sig....SA/DA nice little poly pistol. Not sure what the model was/is.

[ileus]

17. CZ P07 Duty...

just looked it up...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

28. Don't think he said that...

Nope - just said he was impressed with a technical feature of the gun. Nothing more.

Funny how you insist upon distorting everything everyone says into something just borderline perverted. Project much?

[Hoyt]

36. Here, you have to read one post in context of other posts about their infatuation with guns and

potential uses.

[Blown330]

55. If we treated your posts to the same standard...

...it would probably sound like the senile rantings of a very scared man doing the pee-pee dance.


You don't have to post a pic though.

[ileus]

57. Now honey did I say anything about strapping on my hard pokers and prancing in public?

The list price was 449, it's a pretty well built poly SA/AD 12rnd of S&W40. I didn't care much for the shape of the trigger guard but overall it was a pretty nice feeling weapon. It seemed to have some great features and excellent build quality (must have a good QC department) all at what I'd consider a pocket change price. I'm a little too old to be drooling over sub 1000 buck pistols.

[Scout]

33. stopped the robber WITH HIS OWN GUN even....

"The suspect was shot with his own gun."

gee, i thought it was impossible for someone's gun to be taken away and used against them???

:rofl:

[Atypical Liberal]

46. Not impossible.

gee, i thought it was impossible for someone's gun to be taken away and used against them???

It's not impossible. You just don't want to be in a situation where your only chance at defending yourself is to try and take the gun away from the criminal.

If I had to choose between unarmed resistance against a violent assailant, or being armed with a firearm that might get taken away from me and used against me, I'll choose the latter every time.

[Scout]

49. but but but gunnies are always telling people that it's a myth, highly unlikely, etc etc etc

that a gun can be taken from you and used against you....

[Atypical Liberal]

50. It is highly unlikely.

but but but gunnies are always telling people that it's a myth, highly unlikely, etc etc etc that a gun can be taken from you and used against you....

It is highly unlikely, and a highly dangerous action to attempt, and should not be attempted unless you have no other choice.

Attempting to overpower an armed person while unarmed is extremely risky.

[krispos42]

9. It's not just the carrying the gun while in the bar...

...it's the journey to and from your house, with all the stops in between.

[spin]

10. You may not need a gun inside a restaurant that serves alcohol ...

but you might need one in the parking lot.

Note: I am in no way recommending that everyone run out and buy a gun and get a concealed weapons permit. That's a decision that should require a lot of careful thought and firearms are NOT for everybody.

[-..__...]

11. "Striking him four times"...

and the thug is still drawing enough breath to cry out in misery?

I suggest that Mr. Smith practice shot placement more, or look into carrying something with a bit more of a wallop.

Anywho... good for Mr. Smith, he stood his ground and refused to let his companion become another crime statistic.

[slackmaster]

14. .380

'nuff said.

[PavePusher]

20. Heh....

Pssst... forty-five aiy, see, pee

[Hangingon]

29. I am a .45 ACP convert but my Kimber is bulky.

Still, some folks say a.380SD may not go thru a Carhart coat.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

27. I carry a ruger LCP... and I've been thinking about trying the LC9 or DB9

There have been alot of big leaps forward in pocket 9mm pistols.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Its placement not caliber...

My wife dispatched a home invader with Walther PPK double tap, either shot by itself would have been lethal

[slackmaster]

30. I agree, and I actually carry a .380 as a mountain bike gun on occasion

Sig Sauer P232.

[-..__...]

35. True...

but that's only if the opportunity and certain conditions are present.

I'm a proponent of practice for shot placement combined with knock-down power.

The odds of neutralizing an attacker with a misplaced or poorly placed shot from a larger caliber firearm, are more favorable than if shot from a smaller caliber one.

[AmBlue]

23. We also had THREE police officers killed this year in St. Petersburg...

...in a span of only 28 days. I think that kid was just incredibly lucky. If guns weren't so EASY to get, perhaps that thug might not have been carrying one as well.

*************************************

Firearms Related Deaths For Law Enforcement Hit 20-year High As Overall Fatalities Rise 14 Percent In First Six Months Of 2011

Jul 20, 2011

Washington, D.C. – For the first time in 13 years, firearm related fatalities for U.S. law enforcement officials this year outpaced traffic-related incidents, usually the primary cause of deaths, according to preliminary data from the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund that tracked the cause of fatalities in the first half of 2011.

Forty officers were shot and killed between Jan. 1 and June 30, a chillingly high 33 percent increase over 2010, when 30 officers were felled by gunfire. Eleven officers — 28 percent of firearms-related fatalities — were shot and killed in January, the deadliest month for gunfire deaths this year.

“This is a disturbing result of the nation’s weak gun laws,” said Dennis Henigan, Acting President, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. “As our law enforcement officials work to protect us, they are being cut down by assailants who are oftentimes better armed. Lethal firepower is too easy to buy; even felons who should be barred from purchasing weapons can do so because of loopholes in the federal law that don’t require background checks for private gun sales.”

Overall, 98 officers tragically lost their lives while on duty in the first six months of this year, the data show. That is a 14 percent jump in fatalities over the same period in 2010.

Four of the officers gun downed this year were from Florida, which lost 10 officers in the first six months of this year. Two of three fatal shooting incidents, involving multiple fatalities or “cluster killings” that took the lives of 11 officers this year, occurred in Florida (St. Petersburg and Miami-Dade). A third multiple-fatality happened in Grundy, VA.

FL State Scorecard - Florida earned just 5 out of 100 points on the Brady Campaign’s 2010 State Scorecard of national gun-safety regulations, among the weakest state gun laws in the nation. Virginia scored 16 out of 100 points.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1419/

[Hoopla Phil]

31. I see some "ifs" and "mights" in you post. Of course IF frogs had wings

they MIGHT not bump their ass when they jumped.

That statement has as much relevance to my O.P. as yours. The ability of lawful people to carry the most affective means of self defense is a good thing.

[DonP]

32. Funny, for some reason they (and you) left out the actual violent crime numbers?

The ones that show that violent crime overall and crime with guns is at a 35 year low. Now why would the GOP run Brady's omit that?

I'm assuming of course that you are writing them a check as we speak.

You do support gun control in the real world, right? You're not one of the many that just spew on the web and actually do nothing but whine about how "easy they are to get", never having filled out a 4473 or undergone a NICS check?

[AmBlue]

60. Writing WHO a check??

You don't know what you are talking about. I'll tell you who is writing checks though... the NRA and weapons manufacturers poor untold BILLIONS into advertising and lobbying to support their own well-monied, FOR PROFIT interests. Way more than anyone on the other side of this issue ever did. Just like tobacco growers poured billions into advertising and lobbyists and everything but the kitchen sink-- again, to protect their own FOR PROFIT interests, even when it is harmful to users and society as a whole.

I simply believe it is way too easy for ANYONE to obtain a gun in this country and adding MORE guns to the mix doesn't make anyone safer. That Applebee's where this incident occurred is just a couple miles from my house and, I'm sorry, but it does NOT give me comfort to think that while I'm at dinner with my children and family potentially dozens of people, with little to no training and just a little paperwork, could be sitting in the same restaurant carrying concealed weapons. And that's for the good guys. People lose their tempers and do stupid stuff all the time.

Like I said, that kid was lucky. The patrons of the restaurant were lucky, and I'm happy for all of them. But all that said, I still believe more guns do not make us safer, but rather the opposite.

If you want to post violent crime numbers go right ahead! Argue your case. No one is stopping you. I'm arguing that when I see THREE police officers in my town gunned down in just 28 days, it makes me want to see LESS guns not more.

[oneshooter]

62. "Writing WHO a check??"

Best you bone up on the Federal and State gun laws. Before you make a bigger ass of yourself than you already have.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[AmBlue]

63. Wow, I'm so impressed. All you can do is call me names...

...without citing any justification for your position. I want less guns in my world not more. There are plenty that agree with me.

[DonP]

64. Well, you are citing the GOP led Brady group, I assumed you'd want to support them?

Well, gee, since you obviously think they are on the right track. I assumed you'd want to put your money where your mouth is on this issue and show the Brady folks a little love with the checkbook?

Let me guess, all you do is talk about gun control and post about it on the interwebz? You don't really learn anything about the issue, never read about the laws being passed or proposed or get involved at the community level? Most of your gun knowledge comes from a bumper sticker or two or what you heard someone else say about it?

Many of us support our POV by paying $35 a year to the NRA for dues and another $30 or so to our state associations. Not including hundreds to thousands of $ spent on our chosen sport each year.

As for fewer guns in your world? You are definitely shit out of luck. With 1.1 million NICS checks completed in July alone, we are on the way to close to 17 to 18 million guns being sold this year. Estimates of concealed carry permits range from 6 to 8 million so far with more getting their permits ever week.

But you can relax - we also have the lowest violent crime rate, including crime with guns, in over 35 years. The rate keeps going down so the old story of more guns = more crime is total bullshit.

As for how many agree with you? You live in a fantasy world if you actually think a majority agree with you? Every state that passed CCW (49 so far) has been with a bipartisan vote, not all GOP, but both sides of the aisle supporting it. No state has even suggested repealing either.

Between that and the two major SCOTUS decisions in the last two years , it looks like you'd better learn to live with law abiding people that carry firearms. We're not going anywhere - well - except the grocery store you go to, the hardware store, the cleaners and maybe football games in your hometown and all those other places you go every day.

Oh and as for calling names, ignorance of facts in a discussion is not considered a progressive value in most circles.

[AmBlue]

73. You assumed WRONG, and I am citing facts.

It is a fact that we had 3 police officers killed in our city in 28 days. My citation of the quote from the Brady cite was simply the first compilation of police officer deaths in Florida (and other states) this year that I found in a search. It does not mean I worship at their altar.

Fact: Violent crime is not the only way that gun deaths occur. You know that. Children who find their daddy's "hidden" weapon have been known to accidentally shoot and kill a playmate. So let's cite numbers for gun deaths overall, not just violent crime.

Here's another fact: The U.S. has THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS more gun deaths per year than many other countries with stricter gun laws, like Spain, Canada, England, Norway.... I could go on.

Here's another one for ya: Countries with stricter gun laws have LESS gun deaths, not more.

So I am not ignorant of facts... there are plenty of facts to support my argument. As a mom, I care about the world my children grow up in and I am entitled to my opinion. Just because big money CORPORATE interests and the NRA are throwing lots of money around and winning this battle with a conservative-leaning SCOTUS doesn't mean they are right. It only means they have more money than those of us who disagree.

I'm also not saying that no one should be able to get a gun in this country. I would simply like it to be much more difficult to purchase a gun and/or ammo, such as waiting periods and having to pass background checks, and I would like to see assault weapons and clips that let you fire a bazillion rounds in a matter of seconds (like the one the shooter in Tucson used) removed entirely from the market. Average citizens have no business owning those things.

You guys are right about one thing. I don't spend a ton of time on this issue as you apparently do. My husband is required to have a concealed weapon permit because of his work, so I do understand that process-- but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I'm simply a citizen horrified by unnecessary gun deaths-- and particularly the recent police gun deaths at the hands of criminals who should have never had them in the first place-- and I'm sorry but more guns means more gun deaths. The numbers prove it. Another worry is that we live in a culture where guns are prevalent and the notion of freedom and liberty has gotten all twisted up somehow with that of gun ownership. They are not one and the same.

One last fact: People in other countries with strict gun laws and very few guns in the general population DO enjoy freedom and liberty... and feel safer, too.

[DonP]

74. The only "Fact" in your rant is that 3 officers were killed

That's always a tragedy, but I'm betting they weren't killed by a law abiding concealed carry holder like your husband either, probably by criminals that are already banned from gun ownership. What group of laws would you propose that would stop or hamper that behavior? We have 22,000 federal, state and local gun laws now, what more do we need?

And please don't say "I don't know but we have to do something", that is not an acceptable answer from a sentient being here.

The group you chose to cite to support your POV, the Brady gun control group has been caught lying more times than I can count and using any death as a fund raising tool.

Again, in small words so you can grasp the reality; more guns does not equal more crime. The FBI, the DoJ and the CDC track violent crime and gun deaths (including the very rare occurrence of children killed by accident) and all those numbers are at a 35 year low. More guns does not equal more crime no matter how many times you wring your hands over it.

Those other countries that you admire so much for their low gun deaths each have their own problems that might upset you. Like Japan, a homogenous and somewhat racist society with a suicide rate that tops our own murder rate per capita and no habeas corpus rights. You can be arrested and held as long as the police choose to, no lawyer, no trial, until the government decides it's ready. The gun free UK, that happens to be in flames this week over a shooting, there is no law to prevent you from being held or your home being searched at the whim of the cop on the beat as "reasonable cause". It's not really realistic to pick and choose which parts of which governmental systems you like and imagine bringing them here.

You may not like the whole BoR, but it does a pretty fair job. BTW, the SCOTUS decision in Heller was 9 to 0 for the 2nd protecting an individual right, unless Ruth Bader Ginsburg is a right wing shill now too. The 5-4 part was over detail issues over scrutiny level. They were unanimous on the individual right principle.

The 2nd amendment is here to stay as much as the 1st, is equally important and the courts have ruled it enjoys the same level of scrutiny as the 1st, whether people like you like it or not.

You can actually learn about the issue, overcome your emotional response to it and engage in a discussion based on reality.

Or, feel free to pack up the kids and move to any of these other perfect countries and let us know how you're doing in gun free Whereeveristan.

[DanTex]

77. Far more than you seem to have managed.

You're good with the NRA talking points though! A real pro!

My favorite is the "22,000 laws". LOL. One of the all-time classics. The sheer absurdity of adding up the total number of municipal, county, state, and national laws pertaining to firearms and trying to make some kind of argument out of it... the gun lobby at it's finest. Is the number even accurate? The real beauty is that it doesn't matter at all, because the whole thing is just so silly. The only thing that "sentient beings" would infer is that the person spewing this talking point is truly starved for any kind of rational argument.

Which is what happens when you try to ignore the fact that all other wealthy nations have dramatically lower homicide rates and far less gun violence than the US.

22,000 gun laws. LOL again.

[gejohnston]

79. so how many are there

or are you just trying to make an argument through arrogant nonsense?

[X_Digger]

80. You owe me a graph showing impact of gun laws..

Wouldn't want to leave folks with the idea that you were claiming causation without evidence..

Remember this?

[DanTex]

82. Ah, yes, the one who couldn't read the Hawaii paper...

Y'all are too much. Really.

[X_Digger]

84. I'll just leave this here..

[friendly_iconoclast]

81. If they are merely "talking points" and not cogent arguments- then refute them. n/t

[DanTex]

83. I have. Many times over. In many threads. Cited many actual studies.

Do a little search, you'll find. Don't really feel like getting into the whole thing again right now.

So instead I'm just going to take a moment and bask in the awesomeness of the "22,000 gun laws" talking point. It's a monster. A beast. Genius. LOL.

[gejohnston]

85. Only because

you can't. Just like you can't save the studies from the Joyce Foundation echo chamber from total debunking every time you show up with one.

[DanTex]

86. Total debunkulation! Every time I show up! I just can't handle it!

[gejohnston]

87. better one liners than Jay Leno,

do you write your own jokes?

[DanTex]

88. I prefer Jon Stewart

Here's little late night humor
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-7-2006/10-f--king-years---the-second-amendment-and-you

[gejohnston]

89. he does have better jokes maybe

you can hire his joke writers

[AmBlue]

90. Thank you, DanTex...

You and your late night humor are a sight for sore eyes. I was beginning to think I was the last one standing at the Alamo...

[gejohnston]

92. have to give him credit for one thing

he is one of the better among the opposition, not the best, but among the better.

[gejohnston]

78. there is a logical fallacy for that

all of the countries that have higher murder rates also have stricter gun control laws than we do. Some with UK type bans, make us look like Norway. Countries like Russia, Jamaica. Brazil, South Africa.

Fact, Russia has few gun crimes but has a murder rate almost four times higher than ours.

Countries with stricter gun laws have LESS gun deaths, not more.

Not all. Been to Mexico, South Africa lately?

[ManiacJoe]

66. Unfortunately, there are also many who are as ignorant as you.

Take the advise given to you. Read up on the laws that you think don't exist so that you can join us in an educated discussion.
Here is a good starting point: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_44.html

[Euromutt]

68. "People lose their tempers and do stupid stuff all the time."

In and of itself true, but very, very few people resort to lethal force (such as a firearm) purely on impulse. Those who do tend to have extensive histories of violent behavior, and in cases of domestic or familial homicides (like that incident at the birthday party at a skating rink in Texas a few weeks back), claims that these occurred "out of the blue" and that "nobody could have seen this coming" almost invariably turn out to be false as further digging reveals that such shootings were the culmination of frictions going back months or more. Something like 3/4 of "intimate partner homicides" occur after the woman has left the man because he was abusive and/or controlling, and at least half occur after the man has first stalked his (ex-)partner.

[gejohnston]

40. and Wyoming probably gets a zero

and only lost a cop at the hands of another cop (public safety director killing a narcotics agent) in the 1970s, a game warden in 19teens, and state patrol, two to car crashes since 1940s (none were murdered). That is the whole state.

Shall we look at New York? New Jersey? When I was in the Philippines, which has very strict gun laws, cops and political candidates (even for mayor) were murdered every day.

As much as it pains me to say, the NRA is more honest than Brady Campaign.

[Atypical Liberal]

45. If they aren't easy to get, how to people defend themselves?

If guns weren't so EASY to get, perhaps that thug might not have been carrying one as well.

The problem here is that if firearms were not easy to get, then all victims of violent crime would have no option to resist their attackers than to engage in a contest of physical strength against their attackers.

[iverglas]

72. yes, it's the dirty little secret that may not speak its name here in the Guns forum

If guns weren't so EASY to get, perhaps that thug might not have been carrying one as well.

But of course his gun materialized in his hand by magic. It was never legally owned by someone, be it manufacturer, dealer or eligible purchaser/possessor, who somehow managed to arrange for it to be transferred down the line to the thug. Nope, he wished really hard and clicked his heels together and voilà, gun.

No point in wondering where it came from and how he got it. That would mean maybe having to think about ways to reduce the risk of that happening. And that might inconvenience some gun militant somewhere.

[Blown330]

76. I'm sure you'll let us know...

..when you figure out a system that is truly effective in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Don't think anyone here will be holding there breath in the meantime.

[Euromutt]

75. Typical Brady Campaign press release: a bunch of cherry-picked numbers with little context

Two data points do not make a trend. If during the first half of 2012, firearm-related LEO deaths turn out to have dropped in comparison to 2011, and perhaps even 2012, without any gun laws being changed, or perhaps only loosened, does anybody expect the Brady Campaign will issue a press release with Henigan stating "Huh, I guess it wasn't the gun laws after all"? Of course they won't: they have an agenda and they pick the data that supports that agenda while ignoring data that contradicts it.

[ileus]

24. How hateful....doesn't he know it's impolite to have your baser poker out in public?

[dmallind]

48. All this and I can't believe nobody, on DU for Koresh's sake, pointed out.....

.... that had they not chosen to go to a terrible "fake food" restaurant in the first place no gun would have been needed.....

[slackmaster]

56. RA-MEN brother!

[gejohnston]

93. There is a lot to be said for

good old fashioned home cooking.

[Katya Mullethov]

91. It's probably just a coincidence ...but

A pack'a sicarios just killed "Don Cuco" in an Applebee's with a head shot .

" Don Cuco was taken by surprise by the armed group who first fired at the business and then they laughed at him before executing him . "