What made you either pro-gun or anti-gun?

[tortoise1956]

By this, I mean what were the contributing factors that led you to lean to either of these two points of view?

In my case, it's pretty simple. My dad was raised in rural Ohio in the 20's and 30's, and he was taught to hunt for food at a young age. He was also taught to respect the power inherent in a gun, and not to misuse that power. He passed that knowledge on to me and my siblings. When I was 10, I started shooting, in an NRA program, for marksmanship awards. A large part of that program entailed repeated training on gun safety. To this day, I never pick up a weapon without checking to make sure that it is unloaded (sometimes more than once - mild OCD!), I never point a weapon at anything I don't intend to shoot, and I NEVER chamber a round until I am absolutely ready to fire.

The big thing is that I have also seen guns as a tool, neither good nor evil in and of themselves.

How did you reach your conclusions concerning guns? Please be non-combative in your responses, and refrain from taking potshots at others in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

NOTE: I know that the names I used may be distasteful to some. It's not meant as a slur to either side, they were all I could think of at the moment...

[ChrisBorg]

1. First time I shot one. Boy Scout Camp. I discovered that I was damn good with one.

Enjoyed them ever since.

[TPaine7]

2. Research of legal history and criminology caused me to do a 180 degree turn and support the RKBA n/t

[liberal N proud]

3. Like you I was raised in a hunting family

The guns were right inside the closet by the door, not locked up, anyone could get them. We were taught at a very young age to respect them and how to use them when we were old enough for that.

It's not that I am anti gun, but I am pro gun control and gun education.
I don't think there was any one thing that made me feel this way. I just don't believe that all the conceal and carry laws are good for society. I have seen too many tempers flare, too much road rage and too many hot heads want to take someone else's head off because they crossed their path.

I just don't see how everyone carrying a gun is going to make us safer.

[tortoise1956]

7. Yeah, I know what you mean

There are a lot of idiots who think of aggression and violence as the first response, instead of the last.

However, we differ in that I believe that CCW laws introduce an aspect of uncertainty into the equation. If you aren't sure that that person you are getting ready to go after is unarmed, it might temper your actions.

[liberal N proud]

15. When someones temper blows, they don't think.

Vengeance is the only thing running through their brains.

[tortoise1956]

28. Hard to argue...

I don't have the answer on how to change that. But thankfully, those types are still pretty rare.

[GreenStormCloud]

81. The statistics say otherwise for legal carriers.

The various states, about 41 of them, that have shall-issue CC laws have not seen the type of violence that you fear. Further, Texas annually publishes detailed breakdown of all convictions of their CHL holders. We are far, far safer than the general public or even the police.

For criminals who carry illegally the situation is different. Criminals with guns are dangerous.

People who have the kind of anger management problems that you are concerned about almost always get in trouble with the law from an early age, have convictions, and are denied a CC permit.

[gejohnston]

12. I think everyone is pro control

the issue is to what degree. Like I said in a different post the prohibitionists are rare but loud. The "nones" are nonexistent, unless you know someone who thinks a ten year old should be able to legally buy. I would be amazed, that even Ted Nugent is that, well maybe not amazed.

[petronius]

4. For me, it's kind of a community service. You see, I have an extremely large penis,

and I felt it would be a kindness to the pro-gun side to join in and bring the average up... ;)

(And yes, I've been drinking.)

[Kennah]

9. You could always buy a big truck

I'm told it shrinks the size of one's penis.

[gejohnston]

13. and you will get Christmas cards from

the Saudi royal family every year.

[Sedona]

11. so......what other kinds of "community service" do you offer?

:evilgrin:

[tortoise1956]

19. On the edge with this comment,

but it is kinda funny!

Are you sure it's not a mini-gun?:rofl:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kennah]

23. Do his pants fit like a glove?

[tortoise1956]

54. Don't forget the soundtracks

Usually consisting of really mediocre jazz, sung by performers who weren't good enough to make it on American Idol...

[SteveM]

97. You mean, they got rid of the wah-wah disco stuff?

[SteveM]

96. Need a wheel barrow? Use one all the time...

Yes, I've had a couple and :smoke:

[Sedona]

5. Murder/suicide in the family

No gun, no brains on the walls and ceiling to clean up

[givemebackmycountry]

6. Best Friend shot in the head 3 times and killed by a 17yr old crackhead.

Cousin, blew his head off.
Co-workers BIL shot himself.
Work acquaintance, shot himself.
Work acquaintance, shot his wife, two kids and himself.

That's 8 dead people.
Any other stupid questions?

[tortoise1956]

10. Sorry about your experiences,

but I don't appreciate your disrespect. how about being civil?

Edited for piss-poor typing skills

[We_Have_A_Problem]

92. Not to put too fine a point on it...

..but i've lost a large number of people in my life due to motor vehicle accidents.

At no time have I ever considered the car to be at fault.

[oneshooter]

8. I made my living with firearms for over 20 years. Both here and abroad.

I have seen both the good and the bad of them. That made me decide that there is more good in having them available that bad. No matter where you are the same weapon can be used for either. The trick is to use them for good, and to fight the evil that surrounds us.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[virginia mountainman]

14. The big push for Gun Control in the early 1990's

Up to that point, guns where sort of a hobby, with my whole family. Most of us hunted, and enjoyed "occasional" target shooting a couple of times a year..

All that changed when the "bans" started, and people that owned guns, or even wanted to keep them, was branded as some kind of loon. The MSM started portraying anyone who disagree with the "Guns are complete evil" mantra was simply a "gun nut" and ignored them..

When that started, it turned me, and many of my family and friends into pro gun activists...

BUT, unlike most of them, I stayed a Democrat.. The steady stream of Democrats screaming for strong gun control in that era, drove so many to the Republican ranks..

In short, I did not give two squats about gun rights, UNTIL they tried to take them....

I am, and many others activists like me I suspect, are a DIRECT RESULT OF THE PUSH FOR GUN CONTROL IN THE EARLY 1990's.....

[ileus]

16. 5 years old shooting with my brother and father...

I started my daughter and son at 5 also...hopefully they'll follow in my footsteps.

A family that shoots together stays together.

[A Brand New World]

17. Anti-gun!

My dad shot my mom & future step-dad, then killed himself. My mom & step-dad survived. This happened when I was 16, almost 40 years ago. To this day, my mom still has a bullet in her neck that cannot be removed due to proximity to her spinal cord. So many lives would have been so different if my dad had not been able to get a gun.

[nevergiveup]

18. I grew up with guns

in rural America in the 50's. They were a way of life but it had nothing to do with self-defense. It was about hunting. Some of my fondest childhood memories are of my grandfather taking me rabbit and squirrel hunting. My dad owned a small hardware store and we sold shotguns, rifles, pistols and tons of ammunition. I had a Red Ryder BB gun when I was 12 and my own rifle when I was 16 but once I left home in the 60's that was it. I have not purchased a gun since. I learned to respect guns but I never learned to love them. Today I would consider my gun views as a tad anti-gun but it is mostly in response to the pro-gun fanatics on the far right. Within reason I think people should have the right to own a gun.

[gejohnston]

20. hunting family

with a lot of ranchers and cops. They were part of life sort of like the TV. Lost more friends and loved ones to drugs and cars. Only one with a gun, a suicide, using his service revolver.

[DissedByBush]

78. Suburban family

But one that liked target shooting as a sport.

Then moved out to the boonies, hunting.

[defendandprotect]

21. History -- and its record of gun violence -- and violence in general -- plus SANITY -- !!

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tortoise1956]

25. Not sure about common sense

I'm not trying to criticize your answer, but if you have been directly impacted by the misuse of firearms, it would be perfectly natural to hate the cause. That doesn't necessarily mean that you lack common sense.

In any case, thanks for the post. I do appreciate it.

[iverglas]

32. maybe you could refrain from psychoanalysing those who disagree with you

if you have been directly impacted by the misuse of firearms, it would be perfectly natural to hate the cause.

By which, "cause", you presumably mean "firearms".

What utter bollocks.

If you're that clueless about the basis for other people's positions on matters of public policy like this one, you should really remain silent and educate yourself.

[The Doctor.]

39. Telling people to shut up is not very constructive. Let's review;

"If you're that clueless about the basis for other people's positions on matters of public policy like this one, you should really remain silent and educate yourself."

Perhaps potentiated associative aversion is something you should "educate yourself" about.

No, you won't find a simple definition for it with a 'google'. You'd actually have to study psychology for a while. In the meanwhile, the poster is absolutely correct in suggesting that people will exhibit an emotional response to anything associated with a personal trauma.

You've been talking more about yourself than anyone else all along.

[tortoise1956]

41. Thanks!

Just to be clear, I am not saying that the posters who had tragedies in their past are irrational in their response, or that they hate guns. I believe they were presenting that information in order to answer the question I asked.

I'm not sure that my views wouldn't have changed if I had gone through some of the experiences detailed in earlier posts. I hope I never have to find out.

[iverglas]

43. do they require grade 5 level reading skills

at wherever you got that doctor degree in whatever it might be in?

Here's what the person here said:

if you have been directly impacted by the misuse of firearms, it would be perfectly natural to hate the cause.

Here we have one person saying:
"hate the cause of the trauma".

And here we have another person saying:
"exhibit an emotional response to anything associated with a personal trauma"

Oops. How come you didn't just use that person's words? because they didn't make sense and were a clumsy attempt to frame an issue and exhibited nothing but ignorance and offensiveness?

Just say "yes". It's a good answer.

For chrissakes. Mr. I'm An Expert thinks using a couple o' biggish words proves something about somebody else. That would be me, and that I am not conversant with the relevant subject matter. Bzzt. Sorry.

Nothing to do with this other person saying that firearms are the cause of someone's problem, and that the someone with the problem will hate them, unfortunately for you.

You may be aware that it is entirely possible to have a negative experience with motor vehicles, like, oh, being seriously injured in a car crash, and to go on to advocate things like harsher penalties for drunk driving, lower speed limits, higher driving ages ... and just not hate motor vehicles at all.

I guess that it's just people who have negative experiences with firearms who lose their minds and become quivering amoebas motivated by hatred for inanimate objects ...

[tortoise1956]

44. Not what I said

I said it would be a natural reaction, not that it was the reaction of the posters here. I also put that in another post, just to make it clear.

Please don't twist my statements into a pretzel to make them fit your personal meme.

[The Doctor.]

46. If you haven't figured it out already,

That poster cannot resist misrepresenting whatever they feel they must.

Now There is some irony.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

51. Hmm... you're an interesting critter.

Let's see one of these 'gross falsehoods' I've posted.

So far I've posted YOUR OWN quotes with links. If you're so upset over your own words, then you really need to reconsider why you keep coming back to GUNS.

[iverglas]

55. gosh

Let's see one of these 'gross falsehoods' I've posted.

How about the one in the post I replied to and the one I was more than plainly referring to:

That poster cannot resist misrepresenting whatever they feel they must.

Sorry if I confused you there.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

47. jesus christ, I've quoted what you said 18 times

Do you want me to do it again?

if you have been directly impacted by the misuse of firearms, it would be perfectly natural to hate the cause.

There you go.

I said it would be a natural reaction, not that it was the reaction of the posters here.

I DID NOT SAY that you said it was the reaction of posters here. So what are you yammering about?

You have no business saying it about ANYBODY, and not merely because it is nonsense.

Please don't twist my statements into a pretzel to make them fit your personal meme.

Please do not claim that I said things I did not say just to bring the level of the forum down to your own standards.

[tortoise1956]

59. I can't resist this one last time

Here are your words:

Nothing to do with this other person saying that firearms are the cause of someone's problem, and that the someone with the problem will hate them, unfortunately for you.

You may be aware that it is entirely possible to have a negative experience with motor vehicles, like, oh, being seriously injured in a car crash, and to go on to advocate things like harsher penalties for drunk driving, lower speed limits, higher driving ages ... and just not hate motor vehicles at all.

I guess that it's just people who have negative experiences with firearms who lose their minds and become quivering amoebas motivated by hatred for inanimate objects ...

Now I suppose you could claim that you didn't write the underlined sections...your call.

You're welcome to go ahead and respond. I don't have a problem with you getting the last word. Me, I'm done. My forehead is starting to hurt from all the facepalms.

[iverglas]

61. I don't need to claim anything

All I need to do is quote what you said ... one ... more ... time.

if you have been directly impacted by the misuse of firearms, it would be perfectly natural to hate the cause.

You said exactly what I said you said.

Bye now!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

83. I just thought I'd add this:

:P

Made you look!

:hide:

[SteveM]

98. My Dad taught us the safe proper way to use guns before we were 8...

we were hunting by 10, had our own guns by 13. The big flap over gun-control really started by the time I got out of college. It always puzzled me, this. Anyway, looking forward to hunting season and some target shooting when the temp goes below 100.

[ChandlerJr]

26. When it became too inconvenient to carry a cop around on my hip

I decided I was in favor of my right to carry my own weapon. I've never drawn a gun in anger because I don't ever get mad, but I do get even.

[iverglas]

34. love your work so far

Especially that ... odd ... comment about Marx and Engels ...

[OffWithTheirHeads]

27. Guns are tools, just like a hammer. Can you bash someones brains out with ahammer?

Of course. Hell, you can kill people with a newspaper if you know what you're doing. So should every method of killing people be banned? I mean that it gets so rediculous that Great Britan is trying to ban butter knifes. You are not going to stop people from killinhg people by making killing people illeagle.

[Golden Raisin]

29. November 22, 1963

[donco]

30. When I came out of the Marine Corps

I got a job that had me going into some pretty spooky neighborhoods late at night/early am.

Started packing even when it wasn’t legal. I figured that if something happened I would let the attorneys fight it out but I would be alive for the trial. It saved my bacon several times.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Speck Tater]

33. I'm neither, and both.

I enjoy target shooting with rifles and pistols, an activity I picked up in the Air Force.
I don't like hunting. I can't bring myself to shoot a living thing, except with a camera.
I DO think guns should be registered and there should be reasonable checks on who can purchase guns. I know that won't stop the bad guys from having guns, but couldn't we at least make it more difficult for the insane to have deadly arsenals? I don't think there is any reason whatsoever to allow private ownership of automatic weapons and assault rifles. Those are people killers, plain and simple.

[X_Digger]

35. Way of life, I suppose..

Great grandfather on one side was a justice of the peace then a sheriff's deputy in *very* rural WV- always had guns near to hand for self-defense- both he and my great grandmother had revolvers on their nightstands.

On my father's side of the family, dad had five brothers in one branch of the service or another from Korea to Viet Nam. All of them hunters- heck it was a family affair (dad was one of nine kids). One was an FFL for a while, a different one worked on and off as a gunsmith.

I was shooting rifles (supervised) by the time I was eight or nine, handguns by ten or eleven.

By the time I was 14 or 15, I was spending weekends during squirrel seasons camping and hunting in the woods by myself. It wasn't unusual for me to roll in Sunday afternoon with a string of squirrels and/or rabbits and the occasional pheasant.

A couple of years there in the early 80's, hunting kept meat on the table in the winter months. We'd have deer sausage well into April.

I don't hunt anymore, mostly because I just don't have the time / inclination. If I want nice meat, I have hunter friends and friends with cattle.

All in all, I see the use of firearms in a very utilitarian perspective. They're tools with many uses.

eta: I knew I'd scanned this pic in some time back..



G.Granddad and I shot two foxes approaching the hen house one morning. That bruise under my eye was from crowding the scope.

[ileus]

68. good pic...thanks for sharing.

[SteveM]

99. Ah, racoon eye. Did that myself and still have a little knot. Great pic.

[2Design]

36. Guns kill, wars kill, crazy people use weapons to kill others, stop killing with guns

[gejohnston]

38. and start killing with crossbows?

I know that is not what you meant, but focusing on a means (guns in this case) instead of the larger issue is theater more than anything else. It also implies that violence/suicide by other means is a nonissue, which annoys me.

[tortoise1956]

42. Easy there, Red Rider!

He was just answering the question I posed. Please debate the fine points in another thread.

[gejohnston]

45. my bad

:dunce: :pals:

[tortoise1956]

53. Hey, no problemo

Thanks for not taking it personally!

[oneshooter]

105. I would prefer my Longbow, or my recurve.

Longer range and better rate of fire.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[robinlynne]

40. guns hurt people. You dont need to have a personal experience to be afraid of them.

[gravity556]

86. No, people hurt people.

Doesn't matter if it's with a gun, a baseball bat, a tablespoon of rat poison, a knife, an axe, a rope, a can of gasoline and book of matches-it all boils down to the fact that we live in a society wherein the value of human life is rapidly decreasing in the eyes of certain segments of society. What about the Christian/Newsome murders? Yes, the boyfriend was shot and dumped, but the girlfriend was beaten, raped repeatedly for days, made to drink drain cleaner and bleach, was douched with bleach (apparently thugs watch CSI too much) and then she was sealed in a trash bag and left to suffocate. Do their deaths not count because they weren't both gunned down in a fashion that the scumbags at VPC and Brady could capitalize on?

A gun is an INANIMATE OBJECT. It is incapable of any action, good, bad or indifferent, unless a human being picks it up and decides to use it-either like most gun owners in America, to defend themselves and their loved ones from the kind of people who don't value human life, or it is picked up by someone for whom your life and the lives of those you care about mean nothing beyond a source of material goods to be take by force. And if that individual who places value on violence and fear rather than friendship and respect is unable to get a gun, a knife will do-or a baseball bat. Or a steel pipe. Or a lock in a sock.

It doesn't matter what laws the anti-gun side passes because the people who would laugh with their buddies about how you twitched and lost control of your bladder and bowel after they caved the side of your head in with a baseball bat don't give a rat's ass about the laws. Other than it making it less chancy that they'll end up confronting someone who is both willing and capable of defending themself with lethal force.

For those of you who have suffered suicides in the family, you truly have my condolences, but again, had a gun not been available, a knife or a rope or a tablespoon of rat poison or a bottle of sleeping pills would have done the job just as surely. It's cold comfort, but at least with a gun they were able to end their pain quickly and painlessly. (chronic pain patient myself for 5 years-I've been down in that cold dark valley before) But it wasn't the gun that whispered in their ear to pull the trigger. They chose to end their life, and took action to do so.

Stripping the rights of free citizens to defend themselves is foolish. Cops are spread out more and more thinly, so their response times are becoming greater and greater, meaning that you and I are on our own-maybe for 2 or 3 minutes or maybe for 5 or 10 minutes. That is a long time to be at the mercy of someone who views your life as worthless.

Not all gun carriers are slack jawed mouth breathers licking the windows of the short bus of life. In fact, there are very few that are like that. You would never know that I was armed if you met me, nor would you suspect that my wife is likewise armed. We also both carry pepper spray with us, because if the only tool you carry is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

The vehemence with which we pro-gun rights guard our liberty comes from a simple place. Not fear, not paranoia, not hatred of minorities or eagerness to kill someone-all of which I have seen uttered by the anti-gun, pro criminal safety proponents. Along with disparaging comments intimating "Wow you must have a tiny penis" and "what are you compensating for" and "at least I'm not scared of people to the point I am always toting a gun or two".

Open animosity is certainly not a workable point from which to begin an honest debate, and the fact that some folks seem to think that our great nation runs by mob rule doesn't help either. And don't even get me started on the damage being wrought on humanity's upcoming generations by our obsession with celebrities as roll models. Kids are growing up looking at fine upstanding individuald like 50 Cent-a man whose claim to fame is having been shot 9 times while he was a drug dealer.

Don't blame the guns,again, they are inanimate, incapable of doing ANYTHING at all, right up until a human being decides to act for either good or ill. But please, all I ask is that you (the collective pro-criminal safety folks) please respect my right and the right of my wife to equip ourselves in a manner that at least gives us a fighting chance. If you don't like guns, or are scared of them or just have a myopic view of the world where you only choose to see the good in people and are confident that the cops will always show up in the nick of time in a crisis.

To be honest, I somewhat envy that innocence and naivete.

Also, just to be a good sport, the correct answer when asked by an anti-gunner if a gunner is "compensating" for something is "Of course I'm compensating! If I could kill something 200 yards away with my dick, I wouldn't need a foooking gun...."

[robinlynne]

88. It sure does matter. I can run from someone with a baseball bat.

And I am certainly not saying it is okay to run around hitting people with a baseball bat!

[gravity556]

113. I'm glad that you can outrun someone with a bat.

I, however cannot, having severe nerve damage to my leg following multiple back surgeries. A fist fight is out of the question as I also suffer from myasthenia gravis. My disgust comes from the fact that there are those on the pro-criminal safety side who would leave me with no definitive means of self defense. Pepper spray *may* work-there are people who are not bothered much by it, and even then, a determined individual can fight through it. A taser is a single shot device, and if both probes don't make contact, it doesn't work at all.

I suppose I could use my cane, but in the eyes of the law, I might as well use a gun-they're both considered deadly force. Not to mention that if an assailant is close enough for me to smack him, he's close enough to grab my cane.

Nope, I think that if you're comfortable running from a bad, good for you, but please don't presume to decide whether or not I or folks like me can defend ourselves with the most effective means available.

Thanks.

[rl6214]

49. I grew up in Wisconsin where deer hunting is a way of life

Picked it up from my grandfather.

[The Doctor.]

50. I am neither.

I'm just amused by the twits on either 'side' who believe in any sort of absolute resolution.

Thankfully, there are so very few such twits.

I've made my feelings on guns abundantly clear around here. I'm very good with them, but I find them despicable. At the same time, I respect and appreciate how guns can wildly effect power.

I'd love to see an all-out ban on guns. Not because I believe it's right, but because I'm quite certain that an America where guns are outlawed would become a real shooting gallery in no time.

That, and I'm particularly good with edged weapons. So if all the criminals turned in their guns, I'd pw3n this place.

:evilgrin:

[tortoise1956]

52. Thank you to all of you

who were willing to explain their views without rancor. There were many reasons given, for both sides. A lot of food for thought here.

However, this thread has now been hijacked, like so many others in this forum. I guess I should have expected that.

Time to move on to other things.

[The Doctor.]

56. Emotions do that to people...

and threads.

Sorry for engaging the derailers and thus becoming one myself, but there is value in the contrast between the intent and the result.

It is rather revealing whether solicited or not.

[tortoise1956]

60. I know

I let myself get pulled in too. Perfectly understandable under the circumstances.

Oh well, it was good to see a real discussion - while it lasted.

[iverglas]

63. "real discussion"

Yeah, especially the parts where you accused people who objected to your disingenuous, self-serving, unpleasant characterization of people who disagree with you, in your opening post, as rude. Or worse.

If you only want to hear from people who will tug their forelock, say so when you start out.

Or hey, just don't bother. It's a silly, transparent and really very rude game.

[iverglas]

62. this thread was a piece of self-serving disingenuous crap

when it started, and you've decided to end it on the same note.

Congratulations!

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

100. My dear, it's time for...

:smoke: :crazy: :silly: :beer:

[iverglas]

57. enquiring minds really do want to know

What does all of the glurge in this post have to do with you being, as you assert you are, "pro-gun"?

You grew up around guns, you are ever such a good gun enthusiast, blah blah. So?

The big thing is that I have also seen guns as a tool, neither good nor evil in and of themselves.

Why is that a big thing?

Please, tell me why it is a big thing. It doesn't seem like a big thing to me. Why does it seem like a big thing to you?

[tortoise1956]

64. Auto-Response

Dear iverglas,

Once again you have refused to present a rational argument, instead resorting to personal attacks and insults. I have better things to do with my time than attempting to point out the illogic in your post.

When you decide to carry on a reasonable and rational debate, I will be happy to oblige you.

Tortoise1956

[iverglas]

65. once again

you have declined to provide the most minimal indication of any genuine intent to initiate any actual discussion about anything, by never at any time making your own position clear and doing nothing but attack anyone who didn't climb on board your bandwagon.

When you decide to engage in sincere, candid discussion, hell will have frozen over.


typo fixed

[ZombieHorde]

67. I guess I am pro-gun, but I don't own any guns.

I took hunter's safety classes as a kid, and I went hunting and target practicing, but I wasn't really into it. I feel very comfortable around guns, but I have no interest in them.

I do love gun debates though. I currently think the pro-gun crowd has a stronger argument than the anti-gun crowd.

[SteveM]

101. Zombies ('65) just played in the Coffee House!

:smoke:

[ileus]

69. T1956: great thread you started, one of the best ever since I started posting. +1

You are 100% right guns a tools...mankinds greatest invention, sad thing is some people abuse these magnificent devices.

[SteveM]

102. I agree. Good decompression thread for everyone!

[TexasProgresive]

70. I'm not pro or anti gun but I am anti-NRA

I am a life member of the NRA but they have lost track of me and I will not change that. The NRA was a fine organization for teaching safety and gun use. But now it's all about getting as many guns in the hands of as many people as possible. I think that the NRA has become a Lobby for the gun industry and no longer care about their members.

I do have a prejudice against pistols. I have witnessed more safety violations with people handling pistols then ever with long guns. It seems that having a pistol in your hands causes a disconnect to the parts of the brain where good sense resides. This is not to say that everyone handles pistols dangerously but many do.

[Jim Lane]

71. The assassinations of 1968

It wasn't just either assassination itself, horrific as each was, but that Robert Kennedy was shot so soon after Martin Luther King had been shot. It brought home to me the impact of gun violence in this country.

Countries that do control guns (especially handguns) have not experienced an offsetting rise in crossbow violence.

[aikoaiko]

72. Realizing that the fear mongering anti-gun advocates had been lying to me.

Yes, the NRA lies too, but at least they are on the side of individual liberty.

[dickthegrouch]

73. I'm anti-gun

I would require every gun on the planet melted. Their use is preventing otherwise useful advances in diplomacy, anger management techniques and respectful protest.

To me the notion that someone can stand more than an arms length away and kill me is so horribly offensive that I don't rightly have the words for it. In all conflict before the gun (barring spiky balls on chains) assailants had to be in reasonably close proximity giving the assailed a much better chance of defending themselves and survival. The gun, therefore, in my mind is a coward's weapon.

I think in the meantime that guns should be registered by the DMV (which already has the mechanism for registering lethal weapons (cars)) and a license obtained to have/use one. Everyone without a license and in possession should be incarcerated. I am not saying take away the right to have one (yet), I am saying that just like a car, some additional regulation is necessary. Any gun stolen would have to be reported under these circumstances as soon as possible.

Another of my requirements for places like Oakland, CA would be that when gun violence becomes too much of a problem, the army be used to ensure that the perpetrators are caught. One soldier on every street corner armed with nothing more than a radio to inform the cops where the perp is, and which direction he's going in so that the appropriate authorities can ensure he's brought to justice. I want these cowards off the street.

[spin]

74. Put yourself in my position ...

I'm 65 years old. I have degenerative disk disease and am a candidate for a hip replacement. I have had some martial arts training in jujitsu but that was years ago when I was in much better shape. I am 5' 5" now but I used to be 5' 8". I also am overweight at 185 pounds.

If I am limping down the street, a predator may feel that I am an easy target. Am I a coward because I carry a weapon that might help to equalize the odds if I am attacked by an individual who is MUCH better physical condition than I am?

Of course you favor registration of all firearms. That is the first step to confiscating all firearms legally owned. You do realize that a violent criminal is not required to register his firearms.

Haynes v. United States, 390 U.S. 85

(1968), was a United States Supreme Court decision interpreting the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution's self-incrimination clause. Haynes extended the Fifth Amendment protections elucidated in Marchetti v. United States, 390 U.S. 39, 57 (1968)

Background of the case

The National Firearms Act of 1934 required the registration of certain types of firearms. Miles Edward Haynes was a convicted felon who was charged with failing to register a firearm under the Act. Haynes argued that, because he was a convicted felon and thus prohibited from owning a firearm, requiring him to register was essentially requiring him to make an open admission to the government that he was in violation of the law, which was thus a violation of his right not to incriminate himself.

Majority opinion

In 7-1 decision, the Court ruled in favor of Haynes. Earl Warren dissented in a one sentence opinion and Thurgood Marshall did not participate in the ruling.

As with many other 5th amendment cases, felons and others prohibited from possessing firearms could not be compelled to incriminate themselves through registration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_v._United_States

You say:

Another of my requirements for places like Oakland, CA would be that when gun violence becomes too much of a problem, the army be used to ensure that the perpetrators are caught. One soldier on every street corner armed with nothing more than a radio to inform the cops where the perp is, and which direction he's going in so that the appropriate authorities can ensure he's brought to justice. I want these cowards off the street.

I see no problem with using the National Guard to quell a riot. Unfortunately it takes a while to get the national guard on scene. You don't call 911 and the National Guard shows up in less than five minutes. I also would not want to be a member of the National Guard posted alone on a dangerous street in Oakland, California ARMED ONLY WITH A RADIO.If you still think that is a good idea, I suggest you try it yourself. Find a dangerous area where you live and stand on a corner with a radio to communicate with the police. Good luck.

[dickthegrouch]

77. The whole point is that there is not just one.

There would be one at EVERY intersection. Make it quite certain that the perps will be caught.
It's achieved with almost certainty in London now with thousands of cameras.
When it's far less certain that they will get away with it, and when the law grows some balls and considers the victim's rights far more important than the perp's, we might actually make some progress.

I feel for your frailty, but carrying a gun is not the best answer.
I know soldiers who are still trying to justify their kills and they were 'ordered' to.
I do know I'll do my damndest to incapacitate anyone foolish enough to attack me, or get their DNA on me somehow so that when they are caught they can be held accountable.

I don't believe we can advance as a race until we learn unquestioning cooperation and compassion. Murderers deserve no compassion in my book.

See my sig line for more.

[spin]

85. So you would post unarmed members of the National Guard at every intersection ...

I don't imagine that members of the National Guard would enjoy being called up to serve such duty and to also have to do their sentry duty with only a radio for self defense.

Have you ever heard of drive by shootings?

We could easily have more fatalities among these helpless National Guard members then we get in our war in Afghanistan.

If you watched videos of the riots in London, many of the smart rioters were wearing hoodies and their faces were covered. What good do cameras do when the preps are disguised?



So you are advising me that my best tactic if attacked is to try to get the attacker's DNA on me. My daughter will be happy that my killers were caught but might miss me after the funeral. Of course, maybe I will be just seriously injured and she will have to take care of me while I recuperate.

I'm sorry but the tactic you recommend does not appeal to me in the least. I might not survive an attack because I carry a firearm, but to me it is a far better choice to attempt to fight rather than to let the attacker do what ever he wants to me.

I have absolutely no problems if you decide to use your plan against an attacker. Who knows, maybe he will take pity on you. Good luck.

Murder is entirely different than killing in legitimate self defense. One is illegal, one is not. It's been this way all throughout history.

Your fantasy of a world without violence is commendable and it would be wonderful if it actually happened. Unfortunately, human beings are not wired that way. We are, have been, and will continue to be a very violent species. What you hope for would be paradise. If the Christians are right, that will occur after Armageddon.

[dickthegrouch]

87. What do you say to my family when you miss your attacker and hit me instead?

I am inclined to get involved when I see someone being attacked. I will not go near anyone I see carrying a gun, they are too dangerous.

[spin]

91. Surprisingly there have been very few instances ...

where a person with a carry permit missed his target and hit an innocent person.

That could be because the encounters often occur at extremely close range.

[one-eyed fat man]

104. Do you read the papers?

Have you watch the riot videos in London?

All of the rioters know there are cameras and have resorted to masks and disguises. Damn, Who'd a thunk that?

[GreenStormCloud]

82. Really?

In all conflict before the gun (barring spiky balls on chains) assailants had to be in reasonably close proximity giving the assailed a much better chance of defending themselves and survival.

I believe the bow and arrow can reach much further than an arm's length and has been around for thousands of years.

If I have to defend myself I have no interest in your opinions of my courage or lack thereof. I will be fighting to survive and will use any tool that will do the job. I carry a gun to be ready if trouble comes looking for me.

[SteveM]

103. OH, my! Another candidate for....

:smoke: :silly: :smoke: :crazy:

[Paladin]

75. I Walked Away From Shooting When It Devolved Into A Trash Sport.

A trash sport, overwhelmingly peopled by right-wing absolutists. A trash sport, where semi-automatic pistols and assault-style rifles (i.e., guns designed for killing people rather than for "Fudd" activities) are prized. As for the Second Amendment, I somehow managed to be a vocal supporter of it all through the major political assassinations of the 60's; I think it was John Lennon's killing that finally made me wake up, grow up, and gain some perspective on gun ownership in the U.S.---that, despite what the likes of what Ted Nugent and Fat Tony Scalia might say, none of the Founding Fathers could have possibly envisioned or approved of the sort of Law Of The Jungle scenario we've got going in this country, now, aided and abetted by the gun militancy movement.....

[Hoyt]

80. I agree completely. Great post.

[iverglas]

84. g'day g'day!

Just thought I'd say ... g'day. ;)

[ileus]

93. You do realize all forms of shooting are still around, not just 3 gun right?

You still have trap, skeet, cowboy action, dozens of bench shooting competitions, all manor of target shooting...

[spin]

76. I developed an interest in shooting as a child when my mother told me how ...

she had stopped an attacker back in the 1920s. She got off a bus and was walking home at night when a man who had been hiding behind a bush rushed her. She fired two shots over his head from a .22 caliber S&W Ladysmith revolver which she drew from her purse and he turned and ran.



My father was opposed to firearms and did not own any. However my mother still had the Ladysmith in a drawer in my parents bedroom. Of course I found it and played with it. There was some ammo in the box with the the gun but while I did load the weapon, I never pulled the trigger while it was loaded. If I had, nothing would have happened. My father had anticipated that I would find the weapon and he had disabled it by removing the firing pin. My mother kept the little revolver as a cherished possession as it may have saved her life.

My mother had plenty of experience with firearms growing up and she told me that my grandfather was an excellent shot. I found out after his death that my father also had shot handguns in his youth and carried one when he was an investigator for Naval Intelligence during WWII. He never explained his opposition to owning firearms to me.

After my father's death, I convinced my mother to buy me a single shot .22 caliber bolt action rifle. I practiced a lot but I was lucky if I could hit the side of a barn with it.

I joined the Air Force and shot an M16 in basic training and qualified but was a mediocre shooter. Every year I had to re-qualify with an M1 Carbine and I never shot expert but I always passed. I never was fond of shooting while I was in the service and when the yearly qualification approached I used to bitch about the requirement to my wife. She did notice that when I came home after the yearly shooting, I said that it was more fun than I thought it would be.

I left the service and moved into a trailer park. There were rumors of a prowler and my wife was nervous as I was working the night shift. I bought a cheap .38 caliber revolver from a co-worker who took my wife and me to the range to practice. I found I enjoyed shooting handguns and bought a better handgun, a Ruger .357 Blackhawk single action revolver. My wife and I went to the range often and practiced but I never really was satisfied with my skill level.

We bought a home and moved from the trailer. The neighborhood we moved into was peaceful and safe so I decided to trade the Blackhawk in on a Ruger .22 caliber target pistol. I visited the range frequently and finally began to master shooting a handgun. One advantage of a .22 caliber target pistol is that the ammo is cheap and you can learn the basics of sight alignment, trigger control, grip and stance. The recoil of a .22 round fired from a heavy handgun such as the Ruger Target Pistol is negligible.

I would recommend a Ruger target pistol for anyone interested in learning to shoot a handgun. It's not necessarily a good home defense weapon but it can be used for one in a pinch. You can learn how to shoot and the money you save in ammo can finance the purchase of a larger caliber weapon.


Ruger Mark III Competition

After a year, I decided to buy a larger caliber revolver and started accumulating a gun collection. I enjoyed the challenge of shooting a handgun and it became my hobby.

I learned how to reload ammunition and for many years I saved a lot of money making my own rounds. Reloading is a fascinating part of the hobby and you can often make ammunition which is more accurate in your firearm than factory ammo.

About 15 years ago, I decided to get a concealed weapons permit. I started practicing defensive shooting which is quite different from target shooting. However target shooting is a good foundation for the skill of defensive shooting.

I carry a firearm not out of paranoia or fear but because I have a concealed weapons permit and it makes no sense to have spent the money and invested the effort to get one and not carry. While the chances are slim that I will ever have a reason to use a firearm for self defense it is possible. If I ever found myself in a situation where I faced a violent attacker who intended to severely injure or kill me and I had left my carry weapon behind in the safe, I would feel like a fool.

[Hoyt]

79. Grew up around guns, but too many right wing jerks toting them in public changed my mind.

The people I've known who were issued permits should not even be allowed to own a gun, much less walk around in public with one.

[kennyK206]

89. Lots of things

Grew up in a family full of hunters and casual target shooters. After spending most of my life in the "hood" and being constantly exposed to drugs and violence and coming from the back ground I did it only seemed logical and practical to me to keep a firearm for home defense. Later when I turned 21 I would apply for and recieve a Concealed Pistol License from the state of WA. I simply believe in liberty and freedom. Hence why Im as aginst the war on drugs as much as I am aginst 90% of "gun control". I believe in personal responsability and Im not very fond of having morality{be it what goes on in your bedroom,what you choose to put in your body, what god you do or do not pray to etc} or what I consider to a basic human right{That is to say bearing arms in defense of ones self or country} legislated.

I know how most of these threads on the DU turn into pissing contest over whether its right or wrong to carry a gun or own an "assault weapon"{which if one goes by the proper definition, VERY few americans do as its quite expensive and a pretty big hassle to own Fully Auto or Select Fire weapons} but I would just like to say this.

I drive/ride with my seat belt on, keep a fire exstinguisher or two handy, keep a good first aid kit around, as well as keep a firearm for home defense and most of the time carry one as well. I simple find all of those things practical precautions in a rather uncertain world. Im not expecting a car wreck, nor a fire or to be injured nor do I think I will need a gun in but the most dire of circumstances. That said I feel its best to follow the ol' boy scout motto and be prepared. Its better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it and all that good stuff.

[iverglas]

90. what an interesting composite you are!

A family of hunters living in the "hood"!

My goodness, if I had set out to create the character, I couldn't have done better myself. ;)

Now ... if asked to choose, would you be a liberal, a progressive, a democrat and/or a Democrat?


I know how most of these threads on the DU ...

Well, after such an obviously long time lurking -- welcome!!!

[kennyK206]

110. LOL

Hahahaha, Most of my immediate family came from fairly to very rural back grounds at one point. My moms people come from middle of no place North Dakota and my fathers people where mostly ranchers in Southern California. I mean my old man grew up mostly in LA but his granddad was an early investor in thousand oaks and had a very large horse ranch, helped run another and boarded many renowned horses and horses of movie starts etc. So my father and most of my uncles etc were meat hunters, and causal shooters lol.

That said both my parents and alot of my family ended up in South and West Seattle, I grew up in South Seattle and the area around it and indeed have lived in the "hood" for most of my life. Im a very "urban" person lol.

I personally would have to paint myself as a liberterian style democrat. I migh not fall directly into the party line on some issiues but I sure as hell dont fall into the other camp. I mean yeah I wish alot of our democratic party officals and leaders would wake up and smell the coffee regarding gun rights but it is what it is. In fact thats one of the reasons I decided to stop lurking and start activley posting. Im sure I cant change the minds of the masses nor is that my intention, but maybe I can help lead a few people to seeing the bigger picture in regards to personal freedom and liberty and thats good enough for me :)

[ileus]

95. Firearms are just another Safety Device...

[ileus]

94. The evolution of CC and OC have made me realize the importance of SD roll for firearms.

[Philippine expat]

106. POV: Pro Gun

Reason: Constitution of the United States

[iverglas]

107. ah, someone who is "in favour of" an inanimate object

Expect the lectures to begin, you silly billy.

[X_Digger]

108. Semantic masturbation, again?

Not everyone enjoys typing out something akin to 'for the free exercise of the right to keep and bear arms (as is currently defined to be use of objects including firearms for traditionally lawful purposes such as self-defense) at regulatory levels at or below current regulatory standards.'

If you'd like to know the specifics of the poster's position, why not just ask?

[iverglas]

109. ask the leading practitioners

Not everyone who says "guns hurt people" expects some disingenuous dick to come along and deny the obvious.

[X_Digger]

111. "They did it first.." is not an adult attitude to embrace, either.

But I don't doubt that you also know the 'longhand' represented by the bumper-sticker sloganeering on both sides.

[kennyK206]

112. Mistaken

I believe you are mistaking the being in favour of the right to own and "bear" said object with blindly being in favor of it and of itself.

[iverglas]

114. accurate

I'm not the one who said "pro-gun".

You may want to direct your comments to the one who did.