The Dangers of Target Shooting

[mikeb302000]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0821-target-shooting-20110821,0,4049458.story">Los Angeles Times reports

As brush fire season continues in San Diego County, firefighters are concerned about an increase in the number of fires caused by target shooting in rural areas.

So far the county has had 10 fires caused by target shooting, compared with only two last year, according to the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

Two kinds of ammunition found at these locations are also puzzling. One is a Russian-made bullet and the other is used with M4 rifles, which by law can be sold only to the U.S. military, law enforcement and U.S. military allies.

Is there no end to the inconsiderate and reckless behavior of lawful gun owners? The gun-rights extremists are always talking about the 4 Rules of Gun Safety and all the other aspects of responsible comportment with guns. What they fail to realize is the average gun owner couldn't care less about all that.

This starting-fires business is just another example.

The most amazing thing to me is the casual response by the authorities and the LA Times. When you think about the fire damage they suffer in California every year, you'd think they'd be making a bigger deal of this.

And how much you wanna bet the guilty parties are given no more than a slap on the wrist and continuance of their gun rights, this in spite of their proven stupidity and carelessness.

http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

What do you think? Please leave a comment.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tunkamerica]

5. i had never seen that term "blog flogging" until a week ago and now i see it every night.

Is it just you using it? A lot of other people? Is it a new "problem"?

[Mimosa]

7. Apparently blogs are a moneymaking venture for many

The first link told the story. There was no need to link to a blog. ;)

[iverglas]

21. I see a link to a site in your sig line

Any "need" for that?

Any contribution to make to the discussion here?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikeb302000]

29. thanks for your opinion

but, although there may not be a need, someone might like what I have to say, or someone else might despise it, and want http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">to visit my blog where there is ten times more of what you see here.

[cleanhippie]

31. Well, a visit to your blog shows that pretty much NO ONE cares what you have to say.

[Fred Engels]

54. Ten times crap is still crap.

just fyi.

[iverglas]

20. it's a way of disrupting a thread

Itis the standard response to any post by this poster, repeated multiply by anyone who disagrees with his position on firearms policy.

Every single one of these disruptive "blog flogging" posts that I report is deleted. I have reported the one to which you replied.

And yet the people in question continue to post the same thing -- in complete violation of the rules. The posts are disruptive, even when they do not include personal attacks and bigotry.

Count the people who post at DU, including in this forum, who have links in their sig lines to vanity sites or other sites on the internet. No one reports them, as far as I can tell.

If the administration has made a decision, which it clear has, then it's time that all the intentional disruption stopped.

[Union Scribe]

26. Since you're so gung ho on the rules

You should probably be aware that it is explicitly against them to state that you've alerted on a post.

And, c'mon, I know you're smart enough to see the difference between a link in a sig and having the entirety of one's participation in a site being posting articles from their ad-sponsored blog. You're sticking up for it because you agree with him, I get that, but you know it isn't the same thing.

[mikeb302000]

30. that's right - thanks

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikeb302000]

28. it's not a problem at all

it's just one of the buzzwords they use to personally attack someone whose POV is don't like.

[SteveM]

53. Sorry, but I don't use it on anyone else. Just when it happens. nt

[mikeb302000]

27. no, not everyone. n/t

[NewMoonTherian]

2. Wait wait wait.

Russian-made bullet? I'm thinking Brown/Silver/Gold Bear. M4 ammo? You mean 5.56 or .223, very common for civilians.

Will this gibberish join the ranks of Caroline McCarthy's "shoulder thing" and Patty Eddington's "heat seeking incendiary" gem? Probably not, but I'm sure it'll feed the hoppers of a couple of (inflammatory language omitted) who don't particularly care whether their diatribes reflect reality.

To the matter at hand; hey target shooters. Use a damned backstop already! That's basic stuff. As an extra precaution, hang around for a half-hour after you're all done shooting to make sure nothing caught. Bring lunch or something for after the shoot. That doesn't seem too much to ask, if these fire are indeed the result of target shooting.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

4. Fuck, you forgot 762 X 54 For all of us $100.00 Mosen Nagant freaks

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. the fireballs from those beasts might certainly cause a forest fire. n/t

[ileus]

11. grabber talk for anything they want outlawed...

[mikeb302000]

32. of course it's basic stuff

but unfortunately the vast majority of gun users don't give a fuck about safety or consideration of others. Drinking beer while going out in the woods shooting, for example. How commonplace is that in rural areas? Those are your typical gun owners, not the gun-rights advocates who write on the internet all day.

[Hangingon]

36. How about something to back those claims up?

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. And you know this by remote viewing from Italy?

Wow, I never knew this was a documentary:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1234548/

We'd love to hear some stories about your time in the First Earth Battalion...

[AtheistCrusader]

45. [Citation Requred]

[rl6214]

49. Got some proof to back your broad brush painted statement?

"the vast majority of gun users don't give a fuck about safety or consideration of others."

[SteveM]

55. Ha. You ask a question. Then answer it yourself...

"Drinking beer while going out in the woods shooting."
"How commonplace is that in rural areas?"

Okay, we are waiting for some data, some reports, but...but...

"Those are your typical gun owners, not the gun-rights advocates who write on the internet all day."

NOW, we see. No interest in finding out an answer. Just a means to display your deep-seated prejudices and animosities. Does the typical gun owner also eat watermelons, cut in longitudinal slices, mike? Just asking, you know, based on the tenor of your remarks.

You might like this quote from a kindred spirit who likened gun-owners (specifically hunters) as "psychotics," "hunters who drink beer, don't vote and lie to their wives about where they were all weekend."

Like that stuff? Of course, this individual had to personally write to the NRA and apologize: "it is unintelligent and unfair" to "disparage any large group."

That was one of those "prominent" liberals, then governor of New York, Mario Cuomo. Want to apologize now, or suffer the fate of lack of intelligence and unfairness?

You are becoming increasingly shrill. Maybe it's the beer.

[gejohnston]

61. Not the beer, it is the wine

My guess is that instead of Italian or French wine, he prefers good old American.........



or he has a cellar full of vintage Annie Green Springs.

[SteveM]

71. Boons Farm: You can feel the wedge going into your skull.

[NewMoonTherian]

65. I disagree.

I really don't think you have taken the time to get to know gun owners. On what are you basing your accusation that the "vast majority" are irresponsible or negligent?

[PavePusher]

66. Ahem...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBcHUe4WeQ

[NewMoonTherian]

69. The Offspring did a version of that song...

that I think more accurately describes mike.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

3. Oh please! Have you nothing better to do?

Go build a model car or something.

[bluerum]

6. I was out shooting in the pouring rain a few weekends ago. No fires that day.

The outdoor range has a large awning-like structure with a couple tables under it. You have to run out and set up targets but in general you stay dry. But I have to say, 80% of my target shooting is done indoors. But, I have access to indoor facilities and can afford to use them.

If I lived in the rural boonies I would probably just go out back to shoot.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

8. What is this "illegal M4 rifle ammunition" the article mentions?

As far as I ever known, it's perfectly legal to buy 5.56x45mm ammo (for M16/M4 rifles).
In fact, you can even buy XM193 or M855/SS109 NATO rounds.
A little expensve for my tastes, but it's certainly the "good stuff"

Sounds like journalistic fear mongering conjured up from thin air if you ask me.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikeb302000]

34. how about the journalistic fact that

there've been 10 fires in San Diego County alone this year. That's up from 2 last year. Maybe gun sales going through the roof the last couple years has something to do with that. What about all the other counties between San Diego and LA?

[gejohnston]

41. that is the mother of

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. What about those other counties? Why not more rural counties where gun ownership is more common?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

50. And of course you are going to find some way to link the fires

to firearm owners, right?

how about the journalistic fact that
Posted by mikeb302000
there've been 10 fires in San Diego County alone this year. That's up from 2 last year. Maybe gun sales going through the roof the last couple years has something to do with that.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fred Engels]

63. And vice versa, for sure, but I don't go on Italian discussion boards and make stupid comments...

:shrug:

[PavePusher]

67. It is some people's....

Ragione per vivere.

[iverglas]

74. nah

You're kinda busy doing that here, eh?

:eyes:

[ileus]

12. wonder if they also found some killer clips...that would have stirred up the antis.

[TheCowsCameHome]

13. Rec'd

It irritates the Gungeon.

[gejohnston]

51. Rec'd because

it shows the absurdity of his cause.

[SteveM]

58. "Irritating" people. That's what you do? And nothing else?...

You know, if all those beer-drinking gun-owners had poured their beers onto the fires, we would have solved all ten of 'em.

[TheCowsCameHome]

62. You seem irritated.

Why don't you use the secret weapon - unrec the OP.

[SteveM]

72. No unrec for me. I want everyone to see what prohibitionists seek:

"The most delicious of moral treats."

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

15. Unrecced for your effort to perpetuate Teh Fucking Stupid.

"One is a Russian-made bullet and the other is used with M4 rifles, which by law can be sold only to the U.S. military..."

If you are perpetuating this crap, you are wholly unqualified to even begin discusing the subject.

[rrneck]

16. He's qualified to

be an amateur media whore.

[ileus]

18. Lake city 5.56...can be bought anywhere.

[HelenWheels]

17. You know you're going to get flamed

if you make any comment about guns that isn't 100% supportive of all and any gun owners.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

25. Why? In a drought situation all shooters need to know that their target ...

practice may start a fire.

One of the outdoor ranges in north Florida has shut down temporarily in the past because of fire danger.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. He would be less likely to be flamed, if he made any posts that contained facts.

[aikoaiko]

47. Hardly, you really haven't been paying attention. only stupid posts get flamed.

[SteveM]

59. No, you'll get flamed when you push b.s....

I don't look for his or anyone's "100% support of all and any gun owners."

You know that. You are probably just as prejudiced toward gun-owners (review that quote). Like putting everybody into the same barrel, do you? That is crass stereotyping.

[iverglas]

22. "So far the county has had 10 fires caused by target shooting"

That's one county? I wonder about the others.

I am heartened by all the voices raised in this thread about the failure of "responsibility" demonstrated by these undoubtedly law-abiding gun owners.

[Katya Mullethov]

23. Millions of assholes

And so little time . Just look at that dustbin .

[Remmah2]

24. I wonder if the target shooters were smoking?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Only you can prevent forest fires.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Remmah2]

35. Sigh.

[jeepnstein]

38. How do these bullets start fires?

Do you know? If so, please share it with the rest of us.

[Union Scribe]

70. I've been wondering that as well.

I've never noticed anything during the course of shooting that would start a fire.

[SteveM]

73. Maybe black-powder muzzle loaders?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

75. well, I guess I'm gonna start a fire.

After many years, I finally finished building a circa 1770 Pennsylvania long gun. It's a black powder flintlock. 50 cal with a 44" swamped barrell. It's beautiful and I finally got to shoot it with just a patch and 30 grains of FFG in my backyard. I can't wait to go out and start a forest fire in tha Arizona desert. this weekend.

[krispos42]

76. You mean the ones you can buy through the mail because they're so old?

They don't have assault magazines, they can't be converted into machine guns, and they don't have "things that go up". So you can buy them via mail order.


And of course, California prefers that it's citizens don't own anything that can kill more than one person every 30 seconds or so, so I don't see what Californians have to complain about. You're getting what you want, right? No modern, scary-looking self-loading firearms! No pistol grips! No detachable magazines!

I'm sure a modest increase in wildfires is worth it in exchanges for the hundreds of lives saved annually.



I'm also sure it has nothing to do at all with any kind of budgetary problems facing, say, California firefighters, the National Parks Service, or the people that man the firewatch towers.

Nope, none at all.

[SteveM]

77. Those ol' smoke poles...

Someone shot a percussion model filled with loose-grain powder at the range. When he fired, sparks slopped out of the barrel like my late Pappy when he loosed a stream of tobacco juice. The smoke was so bad that everyone in the shooting stalls downwind had to unload and step back of the line and wait for him to "sight in;" how I'll never know.

[krispos42]

78. And they fought entire wars with those

It's a wonder anybody was able to see anybody else.

[gejohnston]

40. it is puzzling, some details that I don't get

Two kinds of ammunition found at these locations are also puzzling. One is a Russian-made bullet and the other is used with M4 rifles, which by law can be sold only to the U.S. military, law enforcement and U.S. military allies.

Are they talking about tracers? Why would law enforcement have tracers? If these rounds are illegal to civilians, how could it be target shooters?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/23/french-foreign-legion-wildfire

In both cases, the bullets are either steel tipped or steel cored. When they strike rocks or come apart, sparks can ignite fires.

This contradicts the first, the rounds are legal. On the other hand, the writer could be thinking of steel jacketed rounds police have been using for engine blocks since the 1930s. Once again, where did the target shooters get them?

[Atypical Liberal]

43. Not sure why...

Not sure why someone who's lived in Italy for the last 22 years is interested in forest fires in the US, but anwyays...

What they fail to realize is the average gun owner couldn't care less about all that.

Citation?

The most amazing thing to me is the casual response by the authorities and the LA Times. When you think about the fire damage they suffer in California every year, you'd think they'd be making a bigger deal of this.

Probably because it's not that big a deal.

Unrecommended for blog spam.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. The author you cited doesn't know a damn thing about firearms.

Ammo for the M-4 works just fine in my AR-15, and Mini-14, and M-4's are sold to the public in semi-auto only form as well. Shot two last weekend.

Perfectly legal, as is steel core ammo. Hell, I have some that's 70 years old in 30.06. Not illegal at all.

Nor is it the likely start of these fires, as tracers have been linked to it, when people shoot stumps. In my state we restrict access to high-risk/high fire risk areas, works fine. What's wrong with California?

Unrec for for-profit blog flog.

[SteveM]

57. On why the LAT isn't "making a bigger deal of this"....

"The most amazing thing to me is the casual response by the authorities and the LA Times. When you think about the fire damage they suffer in California every year, you'd think they'd be making a bigger deal of this."

Not amazing, Mike. The LAT has been solidly anti-gun for years, but has been burned on the issue, so that even it is not so enthusiastic about its own crap reporting. Here come da Russians! Ha! That stuff, and ammo from Serbia, can be found in big boxes around the country. It's cheap.

[benEzra]

64. Trying to wade through the ignorance here...

Two kinds of ammunition found at these locations are also puzzling. One is a Russian-made bullet and the other is used with M4 rifles, which by law can be sold only to the U.S. military, law enforcement and U.S. military allies.

Trying to wade through the ignorance here, to figure out if the reporter is *really* saying

(1) ZOMG THE MOST COMMON CIVILIAN RIFLE CALIBERS IN THE COUNTRY were found there

or if he/she meant

(2) ZOMG AMMUNITION BANNED FROM SALE TO THE PUBLIC was found there

because they are two sharply different concepts. The freakout about ammunition made in Russia is particularly silly, since Russian target ammunition is a big part of the U.S. civilian ammo market, and you can buy it at your local Walmart.

As to the attempted fearmongering re: ZOMG SHOOTING CAUSES FOREST FIRES!!!1111, I think that's been well covered upthread. What I'd like to know (echoing some upthread) is were these fires started by idiots shooting tracers in tinderbox conditions, or by ordinary ammunition, and if the latter, how?

[ileus]

79. I read in another thread that target shooting is a gateway gun use.