Proper Security for Gun Shops

[mikeb302000]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/08/gun-shop-burglary-thwarted.html">The Los Angeles Times reports

The blue-and-white 1984 Chevrolet van, reported stolen Saturday evening from Bellflower, was used as a battering ram for would-be thieves to break into the store in an attempt to steal firearms and ammunition, investigators said. But detectives said the store owners were aware of the potential for such a theft and had taken extraordinary security measures to protect their store and merchandise. Bars and protective casings kept the burglars from accessing the firearms, authorities said.

In a case like this we applaud the store owner for having taken "extraordinary security measures." http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/05/louisville-police-recover-stolen-guns.html">In the other cases, then, isn't it fair to blame the store owner for not having done so?

My opinion is precautions like reinforced security bars or huge vaults to put the merchandise in at night should not be optional. These should be the minimum requirement. But, as usual the gun crowd doesn't want to be constrained to do anything, that would be an infringement. The result is only a tiny percentage are truly responsible. I'm glad to report on one of those today.

http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-shared-responsibility-works.html">The idea of shared responisbility in cases like this is simple. If you make the theft of a gun easy, you share in the responsibility for that theft and its consequences.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

[provis99]

1. why would a gun shop need any security? It's full of guns!

And the gun people tell us that guns are the best security you can have!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. Because guns don't defend people, people defend people

Gun are inanimate objects with no will of their own nor influence over us, despite the claims of some of the antis

[provis99]

4. I guess gun shop owners are too lazy to pick up their own guns, then.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. They were specifically told not to during the Rodney King riots

However other merchants did not listen to that, and their stores were not looted. Draw what conclusions you wish.

[mikeb302000]

8. you know, I think that's part of the problem

they think guns make them invulnerable.

[Remmah2]

14. sigh..

[SteveM]

29. "Cast and powderized, chrome molybdenum steel is as strong as forged meta..."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Your source is wrong

I am familiar with the establishment in the article. As usual, the media got it wrong. Its security arrangements were in no way extraordinary. You might know that if you actually lived in the LA Times locale and not a foreign country.

[rl6214]

6. Don't click on the disguised links

of course they lead to his blog, instead of actually posting the information for anyone to read. Should that surprise anyone? Not any more from this poster.

Of course this post is making a mountain out of a mole hill because there was/is no problem with the way the guns were stored and secured.

[mikeb302000]

9. you're right

this post was one showing how it should be done right. Are you so contentious you can't even agree when we agree?

[melm00se]

7. I have a friend who holds an FFL

and during the interview process, the ATF inspector definitely inquired about after hours security.

His business insurance carrier required him to have an on site safe of a certain quality (which wasn't a problem as the store had had a safe built into the building - which is why he rented the place) and a rather significant security system before writing the required insurance policy.

also, depending upon where you are, the local government may require additional security.

I can tell you, anecdotally, every gun shop I have been in has a had a safe. I was in one a couple of months ago that was a converted bank branch that had an olde time bank vault as their safe.

[ileus]

11. I had to move 3 safes and help install the bars at a friends shop.

And he has a small shop...

Every shop I've ever been into had bars, safes, CCTV and alarm systems. I must assume wherever McGruff the crime dog is from they don't require security measures at gun shoppes.

[ileus]

10. What we need are more jobs, and fewer criminals.

These bums need to get a job and buy their guns like I do one at a time...

You'll value them much more when your earnings are poured into a hunk of american iron wrapped with walnut. UMMMM....

Nothing teaches respect for your collection like saving for weeks or months for that perfect firarm, then keeping it clean and pretty and in perfect operating condition.

[geckosfeet]

12. Suppose I would I agree. This then extends to individual gun owners buying

at minimum, a gun safe.

But you said it, gun owners do not want to be constrained. The safety of anyone who may be attacked or robbed with a stolen gun is not really their concern. But I do not really believe this. Most gun owners that I know, are very responsible.

[Remmah2]

15. A broad brush and a can of lies was used to craft the statements made.

nt

[GreenStormCloud]

27. Poor people can't afford safes.

Some families can only afford a Hi-Point .45 or a Jimenez Arms .380. They don't have the money for a safe. The one gun they have is all they have for home protection.

[Remmah2]

13. Time out for a reality check.

Why wasn't the van theft proof? Just like firearms, motor vehicles are used in crimes. So why isn't the owner of the van held liable for crimes committed with his van? Was the van locked? Was it in a secure garage? Maybe we could pass legislation mandating electronic security systems on vans such that they can be operated only by the owner. Was the van registered?

"But, as usual the gun crowd doesn't want to be constrained to do anything, that would be an infringement. The result is only a tiny percentage are truly responsible. I'm glad to report on one of those today." My bullshit detector pegged at maximum when I read that line. The reality check is you have no idea as to what measures the majority of us firearms owners have taken well in advance of any legislation. It's also none of anyones business.

[NewMoonTherian]

16. You make a compelling argument.

It's good sense to have merchandise thoroughly secured against theft. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it should be required by law.

If we require this of gun dealers, we should do the same for pharmacies and other sources of dangerous items. I think you're specifically targeting gun dealers due to your personal agenda. I appreciate that you seem to be commending the gun dealer in the story, albeit through clenched teeth. But rather than attacking other gun dealers as irresponsible, wouldn't it be more helpful to use this story to appeal to gun dealers in a positive way? I also think that you could actually persuade many of us here in the Gungeon on this subject if you didn't put words into the mouths of the "gun crowd" and then attack us for the words you put into our mouths.

All in all, good lookin' out on this story. :toast:

[mikeb302000]

32. It's already routinely done in pharmacies

as well as jewelry stores and of course in banks. Only gun shops want the option of doing it or not.

Safe storage should be required by law for shop and home.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. It is already routinely done in gun shops

The LAT got it wrong (as usual) as did you.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

18. P.S. I'm sure you will help me finance the $5000 safe that will meet your standards, amIrite? n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Yes, let's play 'blame the victim'.

[mikeb302000]

33. no, it's not about blame the victim

it's about demanding responsibility.

The victim of a theft could never be guilty of the theft, per se, but he certainly can be guilty of improper storage of guns and making the theft too easy.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Too easy is relative.

What is 'too easy'?

[jmg257]

39. One again, define "easy". How sophisticated must one get to protect his stuff from being stolen?

Curious minds want to know where you draw the line on demanding responsibility from the victim for a criminal's actions.


Curious also: If a thief steals your car from the gas & sip parking lot, runs a red light and kills someone, I'd take it you'd gladly take responsibility for that?

Pretty generous, that - and dumb.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. No, you are clearly trying to blame theft victims with your position

[spin]

20. The gun stores that I have been in in the Tampa Bay area of Florida ...

all have adequate security including safes an/or vaults, security bars and alarm systems.

[rrneck]

21. Every gun store I've ever seen

had security out the ass.

Self promotional fear mongering.

[petronius]

23. To be fair, the OP didn't define "tiny." A responsible 99.9999% might seem tiny when you're flogging

an agenda...

(Caveat for the hyper-literal: I don't actually know the percentage of gun stores with a level of security that a reasonable, intelligent person would deem responsible. However, I'm happy to gamble my DU reputation that the true percentage is far closer to 99.9999% than it is to 'tiny'...)

[DonP]

22. Let me see if I get this straight?

Some crooks ram a van into a gun store and still fail at stealing guns because they are secured overnight, the way every gun store I've ever been to does it.

But somehow their failure, in your tiny little mind, somehow proves that other most gun stores and gun owners are irresponsible?

Is that about it?

"Please comment"

OK, happy to add my .02

That's the dumbest fucking thing I ever heard.

[mikeb302000]

34. Don, sorry for the difficulty you're having

I post this as a shining example of how gun shops should protect their merchandise and the public. And I say not all of them do it right. It should be a legal requirement.

In the home too.

What's so fucking dumb about that? If you don't like it because it might inconvenience you or make you act more responsibly than you might otherwise act, tough shit.

If gun owners and gun shop owners were already doing it right, we wouldn't have nearly the problems we're having.

[Atypical Liberal]

40. Exactly what is "right" to you?

I post this as a shining example of how gun shops should protect their merchandise and the public. And I say not all of them do it right. It should be a legal requirement.

As I said, every gun store I've ever been to either has bars permanently installed in the windows, or a drop-down roll-away metal screen that is pulled down in front of or behind the windows after hours.

Some stores, like Gander Mountain here in Huntsville, put all their firearms away in locked storage overnight.

What, in your mind, constitutes "doing it right"?

Do they have to have storage facilities capable of withstanding a car being driven through them?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. You are ignoring the facts in this matter

The gun shop did nothing extraordinary and gun shops in many jurisdictions already have security requirements.

What evidence do you have the gun shops are not already doing it right?

[Atypical Liberal]

24. Are there any gun stores that DON'T do this?

I'm not clicking on the blog links to see what other cases you are talking about. In the future if you want me to read them please provide direct links.

My opinion is precautions like reinforced security bars or huge vaults to put the merchandise in at night should not be optional. These should be the minimum requirement. But, as usual the gun crowd doesn't want to be constrained to do anything, that would be an infringement. The result is only a tiny percentage are truly responsible. I'm glad to report on one of those today.

I've been to a lot of gun stores in my day. I've never seen a single one that wasn't secure.

Every single gun store I've ever seen has bars in the windows or they have pull-down metal doors that pull down in front of or behind the windows. Many gun stores, like Gander Mountain here in town, have a sign that says the take all their guns off of display and lock them away after hours.

Gun store owners are quite aware that firearms are highly sought after, highly transportable, easily movable targets for theft. They don't want their inventory stolen, if for no other reason that it is costly and causes a business disruption and paperwork hassles, not to mention BATFE scrutiny.

[ileus]

25. No...it's kind of like the last time a OCer attacked someone.

[jmg257]

26. Define "easy". How much expense/what precautions must a reasonable person take?

What is reasonable? Who decides?

Because I for one am not in favor of taking responsibility for the crimes of others.

Not when it is committed with, or for, guns. Not when it is committed without guns.

[SteveM]

28. Another deeply prejudiced view of 80,000,000 fellow Americans...

"But, as usual the gun crowd doesn't want to be constrained to do anything, that would be an infringement. The result is only a tiny percentage are truly responsible. I'm glad to report on one of those today."

More prejudice based on more ignorance. Your snotty arrogance is duly noted as well.

And in answer to your question, No. Thieves sometimes go to great lengths to successfully defeat security measures; the victim should not take the blame again.

The "simpleness" you speak of is well fitted to your mind.

[PuffedMica]

30. Let me see if I understand this

If a gun store experiences a criminal break in and robbery, the gun store owner should be criminally charged because they allowed themselves to become a victim of crime?

[X_Digger]

31. You got it in one..

And that's not the first post to assert something like that.

Of course, they wouldn't apply the same principle to anything else, just those ebil gunz.

[ileus]

35. above all else guns ar e the enemy, to many guns victimize criminals...

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DissedByBush]

38. Another way for anti-gunners to eliminate gun stores

Make security requirements so high that few can afford them, putting thousands of shops out of business.

Yes, I'm wise to the underhanded tricks.

Remember the idea of no gun shops within five miles of a school? That would have made most city gun shops illegal.