Report: Manufacturers lost track of more than 16,000 guns since 2009

[jpak]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/01/missing.guns.report/

Washington (CNN) -- Thousands of firearms have gone missing from manufacturers' inventories since 2009 "without a record of being legally sold," according to a report released Thursday by a gun control advocacy group.

The report by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence put the number of missing weapons at 16,485.

"It is shocking that gun makers are so oblivious to public safety that they lose track of thousands of guns every year," Henigan, acting president of the Brady Center, said in a statement. "Given the lethality of its product, the gun industry has a special duty to act responsibly. Instead, it has a scandalous record of carelessness."

The Brady Center report suggests that some guns may never have had serial numbers stamped into them, making them virtually impossible to trace. The group says that the missing guns are often used by criminals precisely because they are so hard to trace.

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[Cool Logic]

1. Geez...that nearly as many as the BATF lost track of...

[ileus]

2. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black...

[AtheistCrusader]

3. Be interesting to see how this plays out.

If the guns actually walked away, there will be heavy fines.

I can think of a couple causes for weapons 'dissapearing' that never existed, or never left the factory floor in any manner. Might be legit. Might be some sort of malfeasance.

[rrneck]

4. 16,000 guns out of over two million or so sold. nt

[We_Have_A_Problem]

5. Doesnt actually sound that bad...

0.8%? I'm pretty sure most manufacturing businesses have inventory issues which FAR exceed that.

It isnt like they're even saying they lost track of 16K completed firearms. It could be even as simple as frames started, then remelted, and someone spaced on the paperwork.

If you ignore that they are guns, its no different than saying "The widget manufacturing industry reports a less than 1% inventory shrinkage on the factory floor".

[Atypical Liberal]

10. Came here for this:

0.8%? I'm pretty sure most manufacturing businesses have inventory issues which FAR exceed that.

Our company has annual inventories and stuff goes missing all the time.

There have been problems with employees stealing stuff, too.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

11. Yep yep yep

...think it is a bit more than 0.8%?

That's based on ~2M total per year. If it is ~5M, then we're at a completely different percentage.

Either way- that's almost nothing. Most manufacturing loses a LOT more than that.

[Hoyt]

14. Yea, but a high percentage of other 1,984.000 went into hands of irrational people.

People adding to their caches, people adding new fashion accessories, mentally ill Loughners, paranoid gunners, right wing and bigoted gunners, and worse.

[rl6214]

19. And you're gonna prove this?

"Yea, but a high percentage of other 1,984.000 went into hands of irrational people."

You've got proof of this that you are going to cite for us...right?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

22. Proof? Read some of the threads and posts here.

[oneshooter]

24. I have. And find that you ignore requests for proof more than anyone else.

Look in the mirror and meet the fail to proof winner face to face.

[rrneck]

23. Bullshit bigotry. Cough up some proof. nt

[Hoyt]

25. I'm sorry, I mentioned "right wing bigoted gun" owners and you got upset.

Is that your problem?

Sorry, I can't applaud more gun sales and more public carry permits because I know what a lot of the "newbies" are like.

[rrneck]

26. That's not proof but thanks for playing.

Of course your continued avoidance of anything like common courtesy and objectivity is abundant evidence of other much less laudable motives.

[mikeb302000]

28. of course you would revert to the old argument

that the percentages are so low that we should accept them. It's a small price to pay for all that freedom, isn't that the agrument?

[akvo]

29. Yes, we trade safety for freedom and convenience

Just like accepting 39,000 deaths per year from motor vehicle accidents. That number could be reduced tremendously but we want fuel efficient cars and a reasonable speed limit. The nation is willing to accept 39,000 deaths in exchange for better mileage and faster commutes.

Or accepting 23,199 alcohol related deaths every year (excluding homicides and accidents). We could make that near zero if everyone gave up their beverages, but the nation has decided that 23,199 deaths is worth having beer at the football game and picnic, wine with dinner, cocktails at the dinner party, etc.

Or accepting 18,000+ homicides a year in exchange for a justice system that considers reform and "civilized" punishments. We could reduce the number of homicides if we only considered deterrence - start cutting off the hands of theives, immediate execution of violent criminals, etc. The nation is willing to accept 18,000 deaths in exchange for feeling enlightened towards criminals.

The list can continue, but you get the point.

[baldguy]

30. The difference is, of course, that motor vehicles aren't designed to kill people.

[GreenStormCloud]

31. But they do. Your objection is irrelevant. N/T

[baldguy]

34. Of course it's relevant.

When a car is used properly for its intended purpose, nobody is harmed. Every state has strict licensing procedures to ensure drivers know how to operate them and drivers go through extensive training to get a license. Auto manufacturers have spent decades and billions of dollars to enhance the safety of their product. The 38,000 people who die in motor vehicles each year do so in spite of these efforts.

When a handgun is used properly for its intended purpose a human being dies. Every state does not require a gun owner to be licensed and in those that don't, literally anyone can get a gun without regard to training or ability. Weapons manufacturers lobby those states & the federal govt heavily to ensure it remains like that. The 30,000 people who die from guns each year do so because of these efforts.

Guns: designed to kill. Cars: not designed to kill. Any rational person can see the difference.

[rrneck]

37. Used against WHO for its intended purpose? nt

[oneshooter]

38. Yet they kill and injure more people than firearms do. n/t

[baldguy]

40. Sure they do. And we have a huge set of laws & massive infrastructure to minimize them.

If guns had similar licensing requirements and regulations as cars do, America's epidemic of gun deaths wouldn't exist. That's why responsible owners - of cars and of guns - should support such laws.

[oneshooter]

46. And yet with this.........

"huge set of laws & massive infrastructure to minimize them" auto still kill and injure more people that firearms do.

So what are you doing to prevent this from happening?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[hack89]

49. So you want guns to be controlled like cars? Great!

1. Own a gun at 16 after taking test that 99 percent of the population can pass.
2. No waiting period for a license.
3. License is good anywhere in the country.


I can accept that.

[baldguy]

52. And all cars are registered, and can be traced if lost or stolen.

All that makes sense - and the RW corporate gun lobby would never go for any of it.

[hack89]

53. Registered only when used on public roads

if I keep a car at home (like a gun) there is no requirement to register it. When I want to take my gun out in public, I will apply for a CCW which will provide a public record of my gun.

Just like you, I am all for treating guns like cars.

[PavePusher]

54. Wrong on several counts.

1. The car (or its remains) has to be found. If it doesn't get found, no trace. Ask me how I know this...

2. Quite easy to eliminate the various ID numbers (usually a VIN).

3. Even if they find a car, and trace it to its proper owner, doesn't mean they get any info on the criminal(s) in the chain of events. So, not a particularly useful anti crime tool.

[petronius]

39. It's simply not true that "when a handgun is used properly

for its intended purpose a human being dies." And without that flawed underpinning, your argument falls apart.

A murder, accident, or (debate-ably) suicide would be an improper use of a handgun just like a murder, accident, or (debate-ably) suicide would be an improper use of a car. Handguns, like cars, are simply tools to be used or misused as the owner decides. Any rational person can see that the "designed to kill" claim is a shallow rhetorical tactic intended to illogically assign motive and responsibility to a mere object...

[baldguy]

41. If guns aren't desigened to kill, then they have no purpose.

So, you must believe that the 30,000 deaths from firearms each year are - what, due to random chance?

[petronius]

43. Doubly wrong

Guns are designed to do what they do: propel little bits of metal at high speed. The purpose to which that is put is up to the user, and is in no way innate to the object. Many deaths from guns are due to users doing things that defy law and/or common sense, just like many deaths from cars. 'Proper' or 'correct' use is socially defined, and only applies to the user - for guns, cars, hammers, water balloons, anything else.

It's true that some of the logical (and socially proper) applications of guns may include killing - animals or even humans - but so what? That doesn't change the obvious reality that they are mere tools, and has no bearing on policy. Insistence on the 'designed to kill' argument is cheap sophistry at best...

[rrneck]

48. Who are guns designed to kill?

Funny how that question sits there whether you answer it or not.

[PavePusher]

44. Any rational person can see that guns have, as a major purpose, the intent of self-defense.

If they were intended for all owners to go forth and shoot people without justification, you might have a talking point. As it stands, that is not the intended purpose, no matter how often you insinuate that it is.

"Every state has strict licensing procedures to ensure drivers know how to operate them and drivers go through extensive training to get a license." "Extensive"? :rofl: In most cases, it is barely enough to be vaguely familiar with the basic controls and with absolutely no understanding of the elementary physics and mechanics involved. Guns generally have 4 or fewer controls, none of them more complicated than an on/off switch. Cars have at least 4 primary controls, all of which are constantly variable, and up to dozens of auxilliary controls required for safe and legal operation of the vehicle. "Extensive". Heh...

"Auto manufacturers have spent decades and billions of dollars to enhance the safety of their product." Which they fought against tooth and nail, for decades. Only historically recently have they discovered safety to be an actual advertising benefit to their industry... and even then they were slow to embrace and develop it.

"When a handgun is used properly for its intended purpose a human being dies." Utter bullshit, of course. Even when fired and a hit on a human target is made, death occurs in less than 20% of incidents. So you fail on math and your basic dishonesty. Two-fer! Congrats! This of course does not even touch upon handguns designed for the intent of sporting purposes such as hunting, competitive target shooting (an actual Olympic sport, dontchya know), and others.

"Every state does not require a gun owner to be licensed and in those that don't, literally anyone can get a gun without regard to training or ability." I'm sure you can cite some evidence that demonstrates that lack of licencing actually results in higher crime, amIrite? We'll wait... In the meantime, perhaps you can post the evidence of you First, Fourth, Thirteenth and Fifteenth Amendment training and licences... should I start a clock... or a calander?

"Weapons manufacturers lobby those states & the federal govt heavily to ensure it remains like that." Again, cite your evidence. :boring:

"The 30,000 people who die from guns each year do so because of these efforts." Again, cite. I had no idea that gun makers were lobbying criminals to commit more crimes and depressed persons to commit suicide. Facsinating. I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter... :sarcasm:



All tools have the potential to be misused, abused or wielded carelessly. Where do you draw the line?

[GreenStormCloud]

45. You can own a car without registering it.

As long as the car stays on private property and does not go on public roads the operator does not need a license nor does the car need to be registered. Many farms and ranches have pickups that are used on the ranch only and aren't licensed for the street.

Same with guns. You can buy a gun and keep it on private property but (in most states) to carry it it in public you need a license.

The designed intent is irrelevent. All that matters is the intent of the user.

[akvo]

50. you mean we should deregulate cars

When a car is used properly for its intended purpose, nobody is harmed. Every state has strict licensing procedures to ensure drivers know how to operate them and drivers go through extensive training to get a license. Auto manufacturers have spent decades and billions of dollars to enhance the safety of their product. The 38,000 people who die in motor vehicles each year do so in spite of these efforts.

What you are saying is that despite the massive effort to regulate the manufacture and use of cars and those that operate them, people still manage to use cars - which are not designed to kill - to kill more people than the unregulated use of firearms.

When a handgun is used properly for its intended purpose a human being dies. Every state does not require a gun owner to be licensed and in those that don't, literally anyone can get a gun without regard to training or ability. Weapons manufacturers lobby those states & the federal govt heavily to ensure it remains like that. The 30,000 people who die from guns each year do so because of these efforts.

First, lets refine your "30,000" number. Over half of firearm related deaths are suicide, I'm not afraid of the guy who goes in his room and kills himself. He isn't a threat to me or society, and if he is really intent on suicide and a gun isn't avaialble he will use his car or pills or slash his wrists or some other method.

Its the actions that impact the innocent - homicides - that we are worried about, and those are around 13,000 a year. Its the drive-by and robbery gone bad and home invasion and drug deal that we want to stop.

Accidental firearm shootings account for 600-700 deaths a year. With somewhere around 100 million people owning a firearm, that means these "unregulated and uncontrolled" people do a very good job of using and storing their firearms properly and safely.


So lets summarize. Cars and drivers are very highly regulated, licened, and monitored and are not designed to kill people, yet manage to kill some 30,000 people a year.

Firearms, which are owned by 1 in 3 people in the US, are generally not regulated or licensed or monitored, are designed to kill, yet kill less than half as many people as cars. And of those firearm deaths, less than 700 are accidental.

Sounds like we should deregulate cars. :bounce:

[DissedByBush]

6. Normally I'd think this is plausible

I mean, less than 1% isn't bad across 4,487 manufacturers making five million of a product.

But this is the Republican Brady Bunch saying this, and the truth rarely comes out of that organization.

[petronius]

7. As far as I can tell, their primary source for the 'missing' number is the slides

from a presentation given at the "Joint Conference of the NFATCA, FAIR Trade Group and NSSF". There's no definition of what "missing" meant to the ATF; the inference that all those guns actually existed in finished state and left the building is solely from Brady.

The claim that guns diverted from manufacturers are prized by criminals is based on a single case from MA (which was discussed here a while back, IIRC), and the tangent about serial numbers looks to be pulled from thin air.

So yeah, this 'report' is pretty worthless without some real supporting evidence - citation of ~16k actual diversions would be a good start...

[Glassunion]

8. And let me guess 90% of them were sold at gunshows

no questions asked to drug cartels south of the boarder?

[petronius]

9. I think that's the only reasonable conclusion. After being quickly modified

into machine guns (a 30 second job - two twists of a screwdriver and a quick snip with pinking shears) and then fitted up with assault mags full of special loads, of course...

[SteveM]

12. Brady Center for Non-varacity: GOP-founded, GOP-led...

GOP

Fail.

[Logical]

13. 50,000 guns are stolen from private citizens a year. 16,000 is a drop in the bucket.

[petronius]

15. 16k is about 30% of 50k - must be an oddly shaped bucket if that's just a drop

:)

Of course the real questions, and the ones Brady wants us to just assume some answers for, are whether those 16k guns actually existed, if so did they really leave the factories, and if so did they really go into the hands of criminals? I'm guessing the number of guns for which all three of those are 'yes' is far smaller than 16k. Otherwise, there would be many more stories for Brady to trumpet, rather than just the one from Kahr...

[Logical]

16. Good point, also, remember the 16,000 was for 3 years. My 50,000 is each year.

[russ1943]

27. Whooooooosh!

Bizarre, even though it has been pointed out in recent prior posts, poster hasn’t yet grasped the less than subtle hint that when you make a claim regarding a statistic, it is appropriate to identify a source and to provide a link.
In his error laden post “Gun control is a monumental waste of time and resources!” he also claimed “50,000 guns are stolen per year” and was advised that his statement re the number of guns stolen per year, left something to be desired, like any semblance of an effort for accuracy.
My question is;
Where do you get your 50,000 guns are stolen from private citizens a year?

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. The poutrage is palplable....

[rl6214]

18. The missing guns 'may' exist but we don't really know

because they are, after all missing and we can't really track them because they 'may' be missing the seriel numbers because they 'may' never have had serial numbers stamped into them but we don't know for sure because they 'may' be missing and they 'may' have fallen into the hands of criminals who often use them precisely because they are so hard to trace...

says the most biased anti-gun zealots on the face of the earth.

You forgot to throw your NRA/GOP shtick in there somewhere.

[melm00se]

21. i'd like the definition of

not being legally sold.

does that mean:

not sold to distributors?
not sold to dealers?
not sold to end users?
not registered with the manufacturer post sale?

the 1st 2 would be a concern, the 3rd one would just say to me that they are sitting in dealers' inventory awaiting sale and 4th would just indicate that folks never returned the "warranty" card nor registered them online with the manufacturer.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. Warranty card? Register online? Not with guns. N/T

[melm00se]

35. really?

https://www.ruger.com/dataProcess/ownerCard.php

http://www.berettausa.com/service/product_registration.aspx

http://www.browning.com/purchaseconfirm/form.asp

http://www.savagearms.com/customerservice/warrantyregistration/

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/customersupport/warranty_card_form.aspx

http://www.taurususa.com/product-enrollment.cfm

Every gun I own/have owned asks that you do that.

this is especially important if you have a weapon from a manufacturer who only honors their warranty for the original purchaser (SIG is like this and so is Keltec IIRC)

[RSillsbee]

33. How much of that number is scrap product? NT

[baldguy]

42. I'm sure the manufacturers know that number exactly.

In most of the manufacturing environments I've been in, they keep track of everything that comes in the door, they keep track of where everything goes in the plant, and they keep track of everything that goes out the door. When per unit margins are counted in pennies, a 1% loss is huge. It's the difference between having millions of dollars in profit vs. not having enough cash to keep the plant open.

I don't see them closing a lot of gun factories, do you?

[RSillsbee]

47. having worked in manufacturing for years

I have seen any number of workers throw scrap in the barrel and never report it. so yes i think it is quite possible that some part of that 16,000 is unreported scrap

[oneshooter]

51. The only part that counts to the Feds is the frame after a serial # has been assigned.

Everything else is just "parts".

[Remmah2]

36. And there obviously resold at gun shows and craft fairs.

:tinfoilhat: