Jacksonville FL - Crown Jewel of the Sunshine State

[mikeb302000]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/216859/483/1-Person-Arrested-In-Quadruple-Shooting-">First Coast News reports on the latest action in Jacksonville FL.

Eyewitnesses told police that Richardson, 20, and Billy Lorenzo Johnson, 31, arrived together at 1324 Prince Street around 4:30 p.m. and soon thereafter got into a physical confrontation with 26-year-old Kenneth E. Curry.

Police believe Richardson pulled a handgun, then so did Curry, and they began shooting at each other.

During the shooting, 19-year-old Danielle Dominique Melton and a toddler, Marc Smith, were shot, as was Johnson. Another person reported that Richardson fired into her apartment.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=1137523478001">Here's a video of the police statement.


Just a couple days earlier this happened.

Ten people were wounded and an unborn child died in a hail of bullets in a neighborhood shooting near Riverside just before 9 p.m. The pregnant mother lost her 29-week unborn boy and an 18-month-old girl was in critical condition after the gunfire.

Six of the victims were women and three were men, all unidentified. A male victim remained at Shands Jacksonville hospital Monday.

Police were looking for at least two shooters Monday and did not say if they knew of a motive. No suspects have been identified.

One of the first things that comes to mind is the pro-gun argument that guns are not the problem. They say violent people are the problem and they always say that as if we don't agree with it. We do agree. We understand perfectly well that there are bad guys who do bad things and the gun does not make them do anything.

The problem is gun availability, and that's where the pro-gun guys themselves come into it. They are the source of the guns used in crime. They'll scream and yell and twist and lie and do everything possible to obscure that fact, but if you think about it, it's clear these guns used in Jacksonville shootings were not manufactured in some gang member's basement. They started out lawfully owned and somehow were allowed to flow into the criminal world.

In their enthusiasm to deny all responsibility for this problem, as a type of distraction, we often hear the ridiculous proposition that even if we removed all the guns, these violent criminals would use other weapons to do the same thing.

I wonder how that would have worked in Jacksonville. Would as many people have been wounded and killed if no guns had been used? That's a rhetorical question, you don't have to answer.

http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2011/03/florida-takes-crown-from-arizona.html">Florida continues to wear the crown and Jacksonville is one of its most precious jewels.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

[Angry Dragon]

1. Perhaps if they just outlawed people

then the gun violence would go down

[im1013]

5. Now THAT is the best idea I've heard yet!

:toast:

[mikeb302000]

6. yeah, that's really funny

maybe we should try gun control for the first time.

[GreenStormCloud]

10. What about El Paso, TX?

19th largest city in the U.S., 700K people, has more guns than people, and only three murders for all of 2010. Across the river, Juarez, which is under super strict Mexican gun laws had over 1,000 murders in 2010.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. It is at least as sensible as many of your posts

However, we can not outlaw dumb behavior or posts.

The fact is that we have solid control in the US, though it clearly is a bit over the top in some places.

[Starboard Tack]

18. " The fact is that we have solid control in the US,"

You're joking, right? This is your humorous side we're getting to finally see.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. We indeed have a national baseline of gun control laws at the Federal level

By and large most people are also satisfied with it. They are not considered humorous by the BATF

[Starboard Tack]

22. I wouldn't call 10,000+ gun homicides a year "solid control"

I would call it out of control. I find it pointless to have half ass restrictions. All they do is fill coffers on either side of the argument. We all know that anyone who wants a gun can find one without having to register, fill out any paper work, get a CCW permit. So, only the good guys pay these prices to be legal and the bad guys fly under the radar until and unless they get caught. So, let's be honest. There is virtually no enforcement and certainly nothing remotely like "solid control".

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Disagree

The control of Class Three weapons etc is quite solid. The import restrictions are also in place and quite rigidly enforced. Nothing loose or out of control there.

Not sure where you got your 10K+ number, but the term homicide includes legitimate self defense shootings and LEO shootings.

The real issue here is behavior. How many murders/woundings would not have happened if it had not been for the perp having a gun? A fair question. The answer would have to be weighed against the self defense and other reasons to have private firearms in society.

[Starboard Tack]

33. "How many murders/woundings would not have happened if it had not been for the perp having a gun? "

That is THE question. Answer is A WHOLE LOT LESS. So, what is the solution? Because we definitely have a problem.
I think it would be fair to say that your solution is making more guns available to law abiding citizens so they can protect themselves. The problem I see with that "solution" is that everyone is law abiding until they are not and the continued proliferation of handguns results, inevitably, in them being more accessible, regardless of legal restrictions. I have never sought a handgun, but have been offered them many times by a host of different people. In California, a few years ago, a neighbor acquaintance invited me to his home one evening for dinner and drinks. After dinner, he asked me if might be interested in buying a gun. I said I'd never really thought about it and wondered why he asked. He was a successful commercial director, but somewhat prone to conspiracy theories and distrusted governments and banks. So, not trusting banks, he had invested some of his savings in gold and some in guns. He then produced a case full of Beretta 9mm handguns and offered me one for $200. I examined the gun and found no serial number. I pointed this out and he said that none of them had serial numbers. He was right. No filing or grinding. They were brand new and had never had a serial number. He then pulled out another case of Uzis, also without serial numbers. I found this rather unsettling.
I declined his offer and bade him goodnight, somewhat startled by what I'd just experienced.
I have had other unsolicited offers over the years from people I hardly knew, but seemed respectable.
My point is, it would appear virtually impossible to control sales and use without draconian measures.

[Common Sense Party]

35. I would suggest that you hang out with different people.

Never in my life have I had a gun offered to me, much less a case full of Uzis without serial numbers.

You must hang out with some weirdos. Try some new friends.

[PavePusher]

38. To be fair, he didn't say anything about Uzi's.... n/t

[Common Sense Party]

45. He didn't?

"He then pulled out another case of Uzis, also without serial numbers."

My mistake, then.

[PavePusher]

49. Aw crap, my bad.

Missed that sentence entirely. I claim fatigue, is that legit?

Mea Culpa, and thanks for the catch.

[Common Sense Party]

55. Too legit to quit.

No problem. Sorry I've been a bit of a jerk in this thread. Not so much fatigue on my part as laziness.

[PavePusher]

66. Happens to all of us from time to time.

And I fully deserved it for that one.

:toast: :evilgrin:

[Starboard Tack]

42. As i said, he wasn't a friend, but a neighbor.

This happened 17 years ago and haven't seen him since. None of my friends or family even own a gun.

[Common Sense Party]

46. Yes, Mr. Uzi was 17 years ago. I refer to your admission:

"I have never sought a handgun, but have been offered them many times by a host of different people."

I've never been offered a gun. By anyone. And I live in red meat Utah.

You're painting a picture of gun owners that is so dissimilar to any and all gun owners I have known that it strikes me as other-worldly.

If these are the type of folks you hang out with, I suggest looking for new acquaintances. A different circle of friends may do wonders.

[Starboard Tack]

48. My intention was not to paint a negative picture of gun owners

but to demonstrate how easy it is to obtain a gun. My argument here is that gun control is highly ineffective and virtually unenforceable.

[PavePusher]

37. No offense intended....

but I do not believe you.

[Starboard Tack]

43. I don't care and I don't take offense, but it is true.

[PavePusher]

50. You reported this to the police, amIrite?

As a "responsible" Citizen, rite?

[gejohnston]

40. were these full auto Uzis?

IIRC, Beretta does not have manufacturing in the US and neither does IMI. They were imported violating the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 (which requires serial numbers). Something tells me there is no ATF form 2 or customs paperwork for them.

[Starboard Tack]

44. No idea if they were full auto. I didn't even want to touch them.

He started out showing me his stamp and coin collections and then pulled out the guns. I made my visit rather brief at that point. I did question him as to how he managed to acquire firearms with no serial numbers and he claimed to have purchased them a few years earlier from some shady arms dealer. He made it quite clear that they were highly illegal, but valuable because of their lack of SNs. Thought it was a good investment at the time.

[gejohnston]

51. wise choice of leaving them alone

If he was trying to unload a pistol for less than half the price of a legal one, can't be that great of an investment. The phrase stupid or gangster come to mind. You do know possessing a stolen gun is a federal crime right?

[Starboard Tack]

52. Stupid fits. Also paranoid freak fits. I moved a couple of days later.

That's one of the great things about living on a boat. You get to choose your neighbors.

[rrneck]

56. And he was going to sell you

a Beretta pistol with no serial number for $200?

He made it quite clear that they were highly illegal, but valuable because of their lack of SNs.

You didn't know this guy very well (just a "neighbor acquaintance"), and he offers you clearly rare and illegal firearms at a price below market value? A guy who was "somewhat prone to conspiracy theories and distrusted governments" but was nevertheless willing to tell you he had a cache of illegal weapons that would get him thrown in jail by the government for a very long time?

So, where did you get your flare guns anyway?

Put the bong down Tack, it ain't working.

[Starboard Tack]

59. Damn, I must have imagined the whole thing.

Flare guns were delivered in the dead of night by little green guys wearing ski masks. I didn't ask questions.

[rrneck]

65. Your account of events doesn't make sense. nt

[PavePusher]

67. Heh, I missed connecting that one, good catch.

I smell fish... or maybe it's just Denmark.

[X_Digger]

41. Cool story, bro..

[Starboard Tack]

47. Pretty freaky, actually. I didn't know guns without SNs existed.

This dude was really out there. Claimed he spoke regularly with the guys on the space station and prior to this incident he disappeared for several days. On his return, he claimed to have been on a secret military mission. One time, he had a fight with another neighbor, who was a retired NASA engineer and happened to be Native American. Well, this guy tells the old dude he's going to have his whole Chippewa reservation shut down in Michigan, 'cause his brother is a Congressman from there. Total nutjob.

[X_Digger]

54. Unless the receivers were stolen from a production line, pre-serial number stamping, then..

were finished being manufactured (serial numbers are stamped fairly early in the process)..

Sorry, not only does this not pass the smell test, it's almost physically impossible. It would require such a confluence of unlikely circumstances that I think it would me more likely for you to win the lotto two times in a row.

[Starboard Tack]

57. That's exactly what I thought at the time.

So, I decided I didn't need to know this individual any longer. I didn't examine the Uzis. Didn't want to touch them even, but he assured me there were no SNs. I did inspect one of the Berettas and it was completely smooth, looked factory fresh and definitely no number. I have no idea where they really came from, or where they went. Hopefully not into circulation.

[rl6214]

60. You must run in some really bad circles

I've been around guns for most of my adult life (32 years) and I have NEVER had anyone offer to sell me even one gun. Your stories about cases of Berettas and Uzis with no seriel numbers is a little hard to believe much less offering you a $400+ pistol for $200. Get me his number, I would love to take him up on the offer.

[Starboard Tack]

64. So you want to run in the bad circles and buy illegal guns?

This incident happened in the early 90's. He was a neighbor. I moved. I don't hang with people who own handguns or Uzis

[pipoman]

53. Do you advocate for alcohol prohibition too? If not, why?

What with 25,000 drinking and driving fatalities annually...that combined with the other 100,000 alcohol related deaths, should put alcohol prohibition VERY high on a person's agenda, no?

[Starboard Tack]

58. I don't advocate for any prohibition. Why would you ask?

I'm interested in a conversation to hopefully solve problems. Are you advocating some kind of prohibition?
I am an advocate for common sense and moderation regarding everything. All flavors of extremism are destructive.

[SteveM]

19. Sounds like the OP wants to outlaw Jacksonville. nt

[gejohnston]

2. How about DC and Chicago

both have higher murder rates and have corrupt governments that use rule of law as a talking point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate


Florida has a three day waiting period
Shall we discuss how Wyoming and Vermont make Italy look like Jamaica and Costa Rica?

[mikeb302000]

7. you lost me on this one, ge j

"Shall we discuss how Wyoming and Vermont make Italy look like Jamaica and Costa Rica?"

But I'll say something about the old standby that you guys can't stop repeating, but first let me ask you this. Did you first hear the question "what about Chicago and D.C." from the NRA? Tell the truth now. Isn't that where all the bullshit starts out that you guys keep perpetuating?

There has never been proper gun control in the U.S. What there has been up till now is a mish-mash of easily circumvented laws which you gun-rights activists keep fighting to maintain, in support of the NRA and gun lobby.

That ìs why I blame you for the gun violence. Get it?

[gejohnston]

12. no

I looked up the murder rates of the cities. Do you get all of your talking points from VPC? Jamaica, South Africa, and Costa Rica all have proper gun control by your definition.
So why are Wyoming and Vermont the safest states?
Most murders are gang related, thugs killing other thugs over market share. That is why I blame druggies, including pot heads, and the war on drugs. Get it?

[mikeb302000]

62. you're comparing the greatest country in the world

to 3rd world cesspools in order to make your point?

The oft-repeated "Most murders are gang related" is wrong. Look it up. And you accuse me of getting my talking points from VPC. Hahaha.

[gejohnston]

63. gun laws did not

lower UK nor did it lower Jamaica's. South Africa is pretty wealthy.
They are, can you prove otherwise? Most killers and victims have criminal records in the US.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. What a load of nonsense

Gun owners are well aware of the repressive gun laws in places like Chicago and Wash DC and how ineffective they are.

Most gun owners do not belong to the NRA and don't get anything from them

There is extensive gun control in the US. It is indeed irregular but it is places like Washington DC, Chicago, and California that are causing it. The rest of the US would prefer uniform laws, we just won't accept the repression of places like California. A good example would be CCW reciprocity. It exists for most states, except those with repressive anti right laws.

I reject your assertion that I and other legal gun owners here at DU are somehow responsible for gun violence and consider it a personal attack.

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. The problem is computer availabilty, and that's where the pro-computer guys themselves come into it.

They are the source of the computers used in crime. They'll scream and yell and twist and lie and do everything possible to obscure that fact, but if you think about it, it's clear these computers used in botnets and child pornography rings were not manufactured in some gang member's basement. They started out lawfully owned and somehow were allowed to flow into the criminal world.

In their enthusiasm to deny all responsibility for this problem, as a type of distraction, we often hear the ridiculous proposition that even if we removed all the personal computers, these violent criminals would use mainframes to do the same thing.


Mike, I'll bet you even believe you have the "right" to use strong encryption- the same kind that criminals and terrorists use...

[rl6214]

4. More blind links to your blog

"and that's where the pro-gun guys themselves come into it. They are the source of the guns used in crime. They'll scream and yell and twist and lie and do everything possible to obscure that fact,"

This is EXACTLY what the anti-gun zealots like you do, you twist everything around to fit your agenda and make everyone the problem instead of assigning blame to those that are truly responsible, not assigning blame to an inanimate object, the gun. Your side just can't understand that someone needs to bear the responsibility and it's not the lawful gun owner.

[baldguy]

8. The mythical Wild West is not something any sane society should want to emulate.

But that's exactly what will happen when all morons who want guns can get guns.

[RSillsbee]

11. First, Two points for use of the term "mythical"

Denoting that the real Wild West was much less violent than Hollywood depicts it.

That said, what makes you think that pretty much anyone who wants a gun can't get one now?

[petronius]

14. But during the time of the mythical Wild West, every moron who wanted a gun

could get one even easier than today. So if the myth wasn't true then, why do you think it would be true now? :shrug:

[spin]

16. And living in a country with draconian gun laws (like Mexico) ...

is something that I don't want to do.

13 Youths Dead in Juarez Party Massacre
Second party attack in a week in violent border city
By the Associated Press

Posted Oct 23, 2010 11:03 AM CDT

AP) – At least 13 young people were shot dead and 15 wounded in an attack on a house party in Ciudad Juarez, the second such massacre in less than a week in the violent border city. Gunmen in three cars drove up to the home around 11pm yesterday and began shooting, Chihuahua state prosecutors spokesman Fidel Banuelos said. The dead were aged 14 to 20, and a 9-year-old child was also gravely wounded.

Police found 70 bullet casings from assault weapons typically used by drug gangs. The attackers escaped, and there have been no arrests. Last Sunday, gunmen stormed two homes in Ciudad Juarez, killing seven at a party and two more in another house nearby. Police have not named any suspects or given a possible motive in that massacre.
http://www.newser.com/story/103646/13-youths-dead-in-juarez-party-massacre.html

[Starboard Tack]

21. Mexico is a disaster, but not because of it's gun laws.

I think it is disingenuous to use Mexico as an example of repressive gun control causing so many gun deaths. We all know that the killings in Mexico are drug/gang/cartel related and that Mexico has been unable to enforce it's gun control laws for the same reasons that the US is unable to enforce it's drug laws. Money, power, greed. The currencies are guns and drugs.
In the UK, which is just as violent as Mexico or the US, the gun laws are enforced, with positive results. In an ideal world, I would prefer there be no restrictions on guns or drugs, because partial restrictions or restrictions that are not enforced, just don' work.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Based upon what metrics do you assert the UK is just as violent as Mexico or the US?

It seems beyond credulity to claim that the level of violence in all three nations is equal


In the UK, which is just as violent as Mexico or the US...

[Starboard Tack]

25. Not based on metrics. Based on the people, not crime stats.

Having lived in those places, I would say the people are no more prone to violence in one or the other, except possibly the UK, where physical confrontations are more common, but not deadly, thankful to laws against carrying deadly weapons, that are enforced.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. I too have lived in those places and others...

clearly the UK is much less violence prone than either the US or Mexico in my experience.

[Starboard Tack]

34. Well, I guess it's a subjective call.

The violence level in the UK is much lower than here, but there is more of it. Maybe we went to different sporting events, but I used to regularly attend soccer games in Manchester and Liverpool. A very different experience to Dodgers Stadium. A rumble outside the pub was a common sight any day of the week. But the damage done was usually minor and rarely reportable. If guns were around, people would think twice about starting a fight, but many wouldn't and the shootings would start and it would become like the US.
I have never carried a gun or even considered it, but I've always felt safe in NYC, LA, NOLA, Tampa and other cities where I've lived in the US. Not so safe in London, Manchester and Liverpool.

[spin]

29. So you feel that we would be able to enforce truly draconian gun laws

such as Mexico has.

I find it fascinating that you mention that we have been unable to enforce our drug laws for the same reasons that you feel Mexico has been unable to enforce its gun control laws. If we can't win the War on Drugs, why do you think we could win a War on Guns?

I would be willing to bet that a lot of the firearms that do get bought by straw purchasers from Mon and Pop gun stores in the United States are are smuggled into Mexico, end up in the hands of otherwise honest citizens who merely want to own a firearm for a little protection from the drug cartels that are happily robbing, raping and pillaging Mexico while fighting a running battle with the Federales and the other drug gangs.

If you successfully disarmed American citizens, you could easily have the same situation as in Mexico. It is also possible that unless we wise up and drop our failed War on Drugs and legalize drugs like marijuana we may well end up with out of control drug cartels rampaging through our nation.

If that happens, I definitely do not wish to have no means of self defense to protect my family.

[baldguy]

30. Yeah, criminals from Mexico come here to get their guns.

And "law-abiding" gun owners & dealers are quite happy to accommodate their needs - for a price.

[spin]

32. Just go on drinking the cool aid and believing everything your government tells you ...

You do not buy fully automatic military weapons such as are used by the Drug Cartels in a Mom and Pop gun store. You can buy such firearms but a lot of paperwork is involved and the price of such weapons is so high as to be almost unbelievable. Mom and pop guns stores also do not sell grenade launchers and antitank rockets.

Drug cartels' new weaponry means war
Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and antitank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.
By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson

March 15, 2009

Police officers drive past a burning police vehicle in Zihuatanejo, Mexico. In a three-week period, five grenade attacks were launched on police patrols and stations. (Felipe Salinas / Associated Press /

Reporting from Zihuatanejo, Mexico, and Mexico City -- It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.emphasis added

***snip***

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story

Of course, drug cartels will take advantage and purchase semi-auto firearms in our nation from the Mom and Pop gun stores when our own law enforcement agencies allow it to happen by not doing their job. I am positive that you are knowledgeable about the current ATF scandal and I am somewhat disappointed that you tend to ignore it.

[rl6214]

61. I live just a few miles from this massacre

Even with all of that violence, it has managed to stay on the Mexico side of the border.

[SteveM]

24. Well, you got that right. It's a myth. Via pulp, oaters, 50s T.V., and you. nt

[baldguy]

28. You didn't read the OP, did you?

[SteveM]

31. You didn't read the OP, did you?

C'mon, don't pull that crap. I responded to your mythology.

[baldguy]

36. The OP is about a Wild West-style shoot out that left 3 dead & an innocent child critically injured.

Gun "enthusiasts" want to take the Hollywood myth and turn it into modern American reality. Sane societies don't do this.

Don't call out "crap" when someone exposes your obvious deficiency of information about a particular event.

[SteveM]

68. Sorry, but you are engaging in...

the usual propaganda and dishonesty.

Again, you are deeply prejudiced and dishonest concerning this issue.

I will call crap on anyone who continues to promote pulp-fiction, 50s T.V. drama, oater movies as a goal sought by those they are prejudiced toward. Further, I'll call crap when attempts to equate a tragic event with a myth promulgated by pot-boiler script writers. And persistently dishonest posters.

[PavePusher]

39. You should have stopped at "mythical".

Since your scenario is fiction, what leads you to believe it would come true?

[ileus]

9. all gun owners are criminals...it's true.

[spin]

15. These shootings involved the criminal element in Jacksonville ...

there are well over 300 million firearms in this nation today. They are not going to magically disappear tomorrow unless you can invent a spell and wave your wand and zap them all into another dimension.



It may be possible to disarm the people in a nation that has few firearms in civilian hands to begin with, but not in a country like the United States. In this country, unlike many other nations, a gun culture exists. We owe our freedom to firearms and we have never forgotten it. In fact our Constitution has an amendment that guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. Our own Supreme Court has supported RKBA in cases involving this amendment recently.

Mexico has the type of gun laws that you suggest and yet the criminal element has plenty of high powered weapons at their disposal. While some of the semi-auto firearms came from Mom and Pop gun stores in the United States, fully automatic firearms came from the Mexican military as well as governments in Central and South America. Despite the strict gun laws, the drug cartels are armed to the teeth with very lethal military weapons. The citizens are disarmed and basically helpless.

There are at least 80 million firearm owners in this nation and we are NOT about to give up our firearms for some foolish dream of a less violent gun free nation. It's a pipe dream caused by smoking some wacky tobacco.

[Remmah2]

69. What part about drugs and drug retaliation in the video did you miss?

I'll bet the perp had a CCW and the gun was a Kahr with no serial numbers too.