Mexico to train it's citizens to fire guns.

[Atypical Liberal]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/09/07/mexico.gun.training/

"Officials in a northern Mexican city plagued by violence say a new course will take a fresh approach toward protecting citizens: Training people to handle and shoot guns.

The aim of the approach, says Garcia Mayor Jaime Rodriguez Calderon, is putting a stop to crime in the 40,000-person city in Nuevo Leon state.

"Many people call me because their son or their husband has been kidnapped, or some family member's car has been stolen. I said to myself, 'Wow, how can we, the citizens, defend ourselves,' " Rodriguez told CNNMexico.com."

In the end, the citizen is the final bastion of defense.

[MineralMan]

1. My father taught me, and then the USAF reinforced that training.

What they're not saying in this story is that Mexico has very strict gun control for the normal population. You can't shoot what you don't have.

http://davekopel.org/Espanol/Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. I'm told they have pretty strict gun control laws in Mexico

I'm also told gun control obviates the need for self-defense.

[Xela]

12. Two sources

The following two sources give a decent, if general, over view of how things are like in Mexico regarding firearm ownership (Kopel's article is a bit dated, but, again, it gives an OK general view).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico

http://davekopel.org/Espanol/Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

Xela

[iverglas]

16. really??

I'm also told gun control obviates the need for self-defense.

What kind of an idiot told you that??

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. I'm told strict gun control will end public shootings, domestic killings etc

Or at least that is the inference I'm drawing from those who continuously cite public shootings and domestic killings as reasons for their advocacy of strict gun control laws.

Case in point, an appeal to ban on high capacity magazines is often accompanied by a reference to the shooting in AZ by Loughner or a similar event. If I understand the cues correctly had the manufacture, importation, sale and/or possession of high capacity magazines been restricted there would have been a corresponding reduction in the body count if not outright prevention of the assault.

From there it follows that once public mass shootings have been reduced below some penumbral threshold than any claim that a "gunner" makes citing public mass shootings as reason to carry a weapon would be obviated. Certainly nobody could reasonably claim to need a gun in public to guard against mass shootings if mass shootings are materially impossible for want of high capacity magazines.

"Paranoid" and "fearful" often accompany retorts against the claim by gunners that they desire to carry weapons while outside their homes.

I don't know "what kind of an idiot" would advance that argument. I prefer not to label them in such terms. I think they are sincere and the inference stands to reason. I prefer to think that sometimes we must look beyond an immediate reason and think larger issues may also have to be considered.

[iverglas]

23. never mind the passive voice crap

You're "told" by whom?

And bugger your "inference".

You're just making shit up. Presumably you think this is a productive use of your time.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. Are you claiming

that if I search DU that I will not find numerous claims linking high-capacity magazines with the ability to perpetrate mass public shootings? If so, I can readily demonstrate that such statements are being made.

If not, then I would like a clear and concise statement about what the ban on high-capacity magazines is supposed to accomplish.

You tend to be rather evasive and indirect so I want to know exactly what it is you claim is or is not an argument of the gun control advocates.

[iverglas]

26. I'm not ducking and diving

My post was about this statement by you:

I'm also told gun control obviates the need for self-defense.

You may think that has something to do with what you're burbling about now. I don't.

You tend to be rather evasive and indirect so I want to know exactly what it is you claim is or is not an argument of the gun control advocates.

Hahahahahaha!

You tend to want to pretend that other people said things you can't prove, and then pretend you didn't do that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. If no one claims gun control obviates the need for self-defense

then what do gun control advocates claim will be the benefit to law-abiding people?

Is there a benefit to law-abiding people?

[iverglas]

29. it's just a marathon with you, isn't it?

Round and round the mulberry bush.

Now go back to the subject of the discussion and try to defend your statements.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. Is it or is it not the argument of gun control advocates that

if guns were banned and/or regulated into impotence the citizenry as a whole would be safer?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

3. No doubt some arms come in from the U.S. -- and not all to the drug gangs...

There is little study of just where these small arms (not full-auto, grenade launchers, etc.) are going; most "commentators" presume they go to gangs. But that may not be the case. Just as in U.S. cities with prohibitionist policies (D.C., Chicago, SF), the gun-runner selling out of the trunk is assumed to be selling to thugs. But some of these arms may be ordered by otherwise law-abiding citizens seeking to protect themselves. Regardless, Mexico should make some kind of provision for citizens to own firearms. Perhaps the city of Garcia can sell-off its own stash of confiscated firearms (I think .45 caliber and up is outlawed).

[spin]

5. If I lived in Mexico in some of the worst areas ...

I would be doing my best to acquire a semi-auto rifle like an AR-15 and ammunition in order to have some chance of defending my family. It's fairly obvious that in such areas, the police are unable to protect the citizens.

True, that would be illegal. However, there doesn't seem to be much law in those areas.

[SteveM]

6. I think I would be with you on that. nt

[Xela]

10. Depending on the military region/district...

Mexican citizens/residents are allowed to own and register the Ruger Mini-14, or Mini-30.

Unfortunately, this is not across the country (in my home state of Tamaulipas, for example, they won't register it.)

Another decent option would be a lever action Winchester or Marlin in .30-30. Or a high-capacity .22 Long Rifle like the Ruger 10/22.

Arguably yet another option, the SEDENA firearms store in Mexico City (the only firearm store in the whole country) also started to carry and sell AR-15 types in .22 Long Rifle.

It is generally believed that the late Alejo Garza Tamez used "civilian" or hunting type of firearms in the defense of his ranch. One can only imagine what could be done if civilians were allowed to own something more effective for personal defense.

Xela

[formercia]

19. I tried to go to Mexico with an AR-15 once a long time ago.

Luckily, The Mexican Customs Agent was a decent sort and told me to go back across the Border for a permit when I told him I had a Rifle. The US Customs people weren't so friendly at first, when asked how long I had been in Mexico and I told them 15 Minutes.
The 1500 rounds of Ball Ammo, bipod and 15 full 30 round magazines didn't help either.
Turns out, the Mexicans don't allow weapons in Military calibers for one thing of many.

[derby378]

20. Man, you are lucky...

One Texan gun dealer was imprisoned in Mexico merely for having three or four bullets in his pickup - and no guns!

[formercia]

21. That's what the US Customs told me

They were having a Drug War in Nuevo Laredo at the time, and most of the killed were shot with 5.56mm rounds. They searched my car and asked me if I was from Alabama and sent me on my way. They were pretty good about it. I would probably still be in a Mexican Jail if the Federales had stopped me.
I was just making sure I would be the last one to run out of ammo in case of a heated argument.

[TheWraith]

13. I would imagine that the ones that are smuggled in go either to small gangs, or citizens.

The large cartels have the means to buy military weapons in bulk, either from South America, overseas, or from the Mexican army. Those guns which do make it across the border are probably most likely going to small gangs or onto the black market for private citizens.

You are correct that anything above .38 is illegal, as is I believe anything in a caliber used by the military. So no 9mm.

[spin]

4. Makes damn good sense to me...

Garcia's program is not the first citizen-defense proposal in Nuevo Leon state involving weapons. State lawmakers are also studying a proposal that would relax weapons restrictions there.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/09/07/mexico.gun.training/

This may not solve the problems in the area but may offer citizens a means of self defense.

[Glassunion]

7. As an American need has nothing to do with it... But,

If any group of people ever "needed" "assault weapons", I would say that would be the law abiding Mexican citizens.

[spin]

8. I have a feeling that Mexican gun laws are about to change. (n/t)

[Xela]

14. Mexican firearm law legislation...

It has been stuck for decades in Congress.

If only there was a stronger gun lobby. I suggested to some key people that the NRA ought to give them advice/guidance like they did in Brazil.

Xela

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. And while it is Mexico, perhaps the notion of

"a well-regulated militia" isn't so quaint in the modern world after all.

[Xela]

15. Those state lawmakers in Mexico....

...would be out of their jurisdiction.

Firearm laws in Mexico are mainly federal. And the federal Congress is very jealous. I doubt they'll let the states mess with the law.

Xela

[SteveM]

24. Different countries, but I do not U.S. states increasingly thumbing noses at our feds...

over marijuana laws.

[Xela]

9. Defensive Firearm training...not new in Mexico, not by a long shot...

It has been steadily on the rise wayyy before this drug war got started.

There are ate least 3 Mexican firearm forums online. Two of which have dedicated sections on personal defense with a firearm.

http://www.enlamira.com.mx/foros/index.php

http://www.mexicoarmado.com/

There are even IDPA teams as well:
http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?pick=Mexico

(Up until a couple of years ago, Mexican teams also competed IPSC.)

Sample of IDPA Mexico videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK1psnF_798
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ani7UHSX_2w

Regards,

Xela

[Xela]

11. Also...

Some higher state representatives were also recently in the news giving an opposing view to this mayor's initiative.

They say he's within his rights, but at least one state representative believes the mayor is "promoting violence and vigilante justice."

In Spanish:
http://www.televisa.com/programas/tv-abierta-local/monterrey/noticias/locales/323501/no-apoyan-jaime-rodriguez


Xela

[iverglas]

17. top story at google news for Mexico kidnapping

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gSSZC_Xkg2UV5BF0VOMKIOJKJUVw?docId=CNG.849b504ef84f6851b45beac71ccde5d7.171

Mexico detains 80, seizes drug gang communications

(AFP) – 4 hours ago

VERACRUZ, Mexico — Mexican troops detained 80 suspected members of the Zetas drug gang, including six police officers, in eastern Veracruz and broke up their network of encrypted communications, the military said Thursday.

The raid meant that the Zetas had lost their lines of communication and control over the organization, said Jose Luis Vergara, spokesman for the navy, told a news conference at the Veracruz airbase.

The navy displayed seized weapons and high-tech communications equipment which they said allowed the heads of the Zetas to communicate with their hitmen, police who were protecting them and drug traffickers.

... Among those arrested in the most recent sweep were five suspected Zetas sought in the abduction and killing of four Mexican naval servicemen in the Veracruz region, as well as suspects in the kidnapping of Veracruz port administrator Francisco Serrano Aramoni, missing since July 1.

And someone is seriously suggesting that Jose and Maria Publico are going to be able to fend these people off with their very own gun.

Right.

Somebody's car was stolen? Yeah, let's have a pistol in every pot now ...

[gejohnston]

18. on a small scale, yes

would you rather them stand around and still be a victim?