Another "rare" AK-47 shooting

[MyrnaLoy]

This time it's outside of a bar proving drinking and shooting do mix.

"Randall A. Burke, 57, is accused of firing the weapon during an altercation at the Mountain Bay Bar shortly before midnight Saturday." http://www.shawanoleader.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=27&ArticleID=691

"Maintenance personnel investigating a leak in an apartment Wednesday discovered a marijuana growing operation and a cache of weapons, including an AK-47, police said." http://www.courant.com/community/middletown/hc-middletown-drug-bust-0909-20110908,0,451716.story

"Jones says a police supervisor approached the vehicle and saw one of two men inside was trying to grab the shoulder strap of the AK-47." http://www.wsbtv.com/news/29052123/detail.html

"n active-duty member of the Navy who police said was "disgruntled" was charged Monday with illegal possession of an assault weapon and sale or transportation of a prohibited assault weapon." http://www.theday.com/article/20110823/NWS01/308239923/1044

"Police searched the apartment and determined nobody was injured. In the bedroom closet, they found a black Century Arms AK47 semi-automatic rifle. " http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=82687

"Deputies Capture Shooting Suspect, Recover AK-47 Assault Rifle" http://www.nbcmontana.com/news/28926327/detail.html

"Police seized a total of 21 pounds of marijuana, 13 grams of cocaine and an AK-47 assault rifle — among other items — " http://www.cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2011/09/01/drug-bust-uncovers-pot-cocaine-ak-47-three-people-charged

And for you history buffs:

Five Children Killed As Gunman Attacks A California School
"She said she ran to her classroom window when she heard what she thought were firecrackers, and saw a man standing in the schoolyard, spraying gunfire from what turned out to be a Russian-designed AK-47 rifle. There were 400 to 500 pupils from the first to third grades playing at the noontime recess." http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/18/us/five-children-killed-as-gunman-attacks-a-california-school.html

"Officers had pulled over the men's rented car for speeding and recovered two AK-47 assault rifles, more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition, ski masks, bulletproof vests, two police scanners and several other weapons. Without releasing the men's names, Sgt. Rick Young of the Glendale Police Department said the two men killed Friday in North(North Hollywood) Hollywood were the same ones arrested in the traffic stop." http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/11168956.html?dids=11168956:11168956&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Mar+02%2C+1997&author=BETH+SHUSTER%3B+NICHOLAS+RICCARDI%3B+KEN+ELLINGWOOD&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=2+Robbers+Slain+After+Bank+Heist+Identified%3B+Crime%3A+Hundreds+gather+at+scene+to+relive+harrowing+event.+Gunmen+had+served+time+for+weapons+charges%2C+are+believed+to+be+%27AK-47+bandits%27+who+robbed+two+branches+in+May.&pqatl=google


Got tired of reading all these "RARE" events. To see for yourself just how "RARE" AK-47s are involved in criminal activity Go to Google, choose News and type in AK-47. I hope you have the day off because there seems to be a lot of these "RARE" news stories.

[baldguy]

1. "If you outlaw assault rifles, only criminals will have them."

Well, that's the whole point. Isn't it?

Guns are designed to kill. Handguns are designed to kill people. Assault weapons are designed to a lot of people quickly.

Why wouldn't any sane society not outlaw them?

[Tejas]

3. Hey, it worked in Mexico.

[Tejas]

4. "Assault weapons are designed to (?) a lot of people quickly"

Who has all of these "Assault weapons (that) are designed to (?) a lot of people quickly"?
And how do the "Assault weapons (that) are designed to (?) a lot of people quickly" do it any quicker than a Ruger 10-22?
Where can you buy one of these "Assault weapons (that) are designed to (?) a lot of people quickly"?

[Taitertots]

7. None of those were assault rifles

Which remain legal, but regulated.

Guns are designed to fire projectiles. Why would any sane society have reason to outlaw them?

[flamin lib]

10. That begs the question

How sane is a country that holds gun ownership on par with the world's great religions?

[Taitertots]

11. "world's great religions" How sane is a country that celebrates ancient mythology?

How can a country be both sane and unable to deal with modern firearms?

[iverglas]

41. wowsers ... you mean like yours?

Lot of religionizing going on down there, and plainly unable to deal with modern firearms.

Yup, I guess that was the USofA you wuz talking about.

[Taitertots]

44. We don't have any problems dealing with firearms

We have problems dealing with a variety of social issues that Canada hasn't had to deal with.

[iverglas]

45. you're so clever

We have problems dealing with a variety of social issues that Canada hasn't had to deal with.

Yes indeed, Canada did not have institutionalized slavery playing a large role in its history.

Are you seriously saying that this difference explains how firearms are so poorly dealt with in the US as compared to Canada?

Oh, and we do have lower levels of illegal immigration. But we have twice the foreign-born population, proportionately, that the US has.

Perhaps you had some other variety of social issues in mind that Canada has somehow been exempted from.

Care to share?

Is this those "root causes" of crime that some decry and call for tackling, while others (hell, sometimes the same ones) call 15-year-old offenders the scum of the earth?

I do get confused.

[Taitertots]

46. It is really obvious

"Is this those "root causes" of crime that some decry and call for tackling, while others (hell, sometimes the same ones) call 15-year-old offenders the scum of the earth?"
Yeah it is really obvious. Poverty, Income inequality, wealth inequality, and unemployment.

Now exacerbate all those problems by having significantly more poorer people all grouped together. The Largest Urban agglomeration in all Canada is Pathetically small compared to the NY agglomeration or the LA agglomeration. There are more poor people in the US than there are people in all of Canada.

[iverglas]

47. oh well, doomed to disappontment again

Here I thought maybe you actually knew something about what you were yammering about.

The largest urban agglomeration in Canada has fewer homicides in a year, for example, than cities half its size with hugely more homogeneous populations in the US.

There are more poor people in the US than there are people in all of Canada.

Um, you do know about things like rates, right?

Well, apparently not.

[Taitertots]

48. Um, you do know about things like scale, right?

California has more people in it than all of Canada. New York, New Jersey, and Philadelphia combine to more than the entire population of Canada. There are significantly more people in significantly larger agglomerations.

"Um, you do know about things like rates, right?"
Yeah, higher unemployment rates in general, and in many of the significantly larger agglomerations. Significantly higher income and wealth inequality in the US. Higher poverty rate. It is really obvious.

[iverglas]

49. yeah, and I know about things like population density and lots of stuff

You simply do not have a point.

Check out the urban agglomeration known as the Golden Horseshoe.

The "rates" I was talking about were the ones that consist of comparing A and B based on rates of things, not absolute numbers of things. You probably knew that.

Differences in income disparities, unemployment rates, blah blah blah ... and in access to firearms and in particular handguns. You don't actually get to pick your points of comparison single-handedly.

[Taitertots]

50. The US has a higher unemployment RATE, poverty RATE....

And significantly worse income and wealth disparity. The US is worse in every rate that matters. But you already knew that, because I told you already.

The Golden Horseshoe LOL. There are just as many people in just New York City alone. Canada just can't compare to America in terms of population, population density, and agglomeration size. Canada has the Golden horseshoe, while the US has the Northeast Megapolis. More than 5 times the people AND significantly higher population density.


"You don't actually get to pick your points of comparison single-handedly."
Neither do you. You want to pretend that Canada is just like it's neighbor to the south, but the facts prove they are significantly different. Higher unemployment rate, higher income and wealth inequality, more systemic racism, worse public services, and significantly high populations.

Why don't we throw Mexico into the mix and you can explain why they don't have access to firearms and have significantly worse crime? There is no correlation between gun laws and crime rates in North America. There is undeniable correlation between poverty, homelessness, unemployment, and crime.

[iverglas]

52. Gordon Bennett

I swan.

I forgot.

The USofA is exceptional.

It is, most importantly, exceptional in that the availability of firearms has NO EFFECT on the rates of violent crime and homicide it experiences. None.

Its higher unemployment rate and higher GINI index affect those things, but the availability of firearms just has no effect on them at all.

Right. I'll try to remember that.


Why don't we throw Mexico into the mix and you can explain why they don't have access to firearms and have significantly worse crime?

Uh, because I don't answer "questions" loaded with false premises?

There is no correlation between gun laws and crime rates in North America.

Who said there was?


There is undeniable correlation between poverty, homelessness, unemployment, and crime.

Oh, okay, maybe the US isn't the only exceptional one. The availability of firearms in Mexico has absolutely nothing to do with the widespread crime and violence there either. Right. Got it now.

[Taitertots]

55. The US isn't exceptional, the same applies everywhere in the entire world

"There is no correlation between gun laws and crime rates in North America.

Who said there was?"
I am saying it, because it proves that gun laws don't effect crime rates.

"Oh, okay, maybe the US isn't the only exceptional one. The availability of firearms in Mexico has absolutely nothing to do with the widespread crime and violence there either. Right. Got it now"
Mexican gun laws are stricter than Canadian gun laws. Guns are hard to obtain in Mexico. Gun laws have done nothing to stop widespread crime or violence.

"Its higher unemployment rate and higher GINI index affect those things, but the availability of firearms just has no effect on them at all."
The numbers don't lie. That is just the way it is.

[iverglas]

56. the word you want is "affect"

I am saying it, because it proves that gun laws don't effect crime rates.

I thought I'd given you enough warning that you wouldn't pile the straw higher.

Gun laws do nothing, just as speed limits do nothing.

Mexican gun laws are stricter than Canadian gun laws. Guns are hard to obtain in Mexico.

Really. That would be why there are so few of them there.

The fact that guns are hugely easy to traffic into Mexico, why, we'll just look away from that one.

You want to talk about "gun laws". Go find somebody who said something about gun laws.

I was and am talking about the availability of guns.

Its higher unemployment rate and higher GINI index affect those things, but the availability of firearms just has no effect on them at all.
The numbers don't lie. That is just the way it is.

Yeah. Funny thing. Britain's GINI index lies between Canada's and the US's. And yet it has a way lower homicide rate than the US, and a rate somewhat lower than Canada's. (It also has institutionalized poverty and exclusion, huge social disparities ...)

I wonder what other factors might be operating ... I wonder, I wonder ...

The numbers don't lie! That's just the way it is.

[Taitertots]

68. Guns are not easy to obtain in Mexico, they have to smuggle them in from other countries

The "availability of guns" is a meaningless term. How do you objectively quantify this term? We need to use terms that are actually quantifiable, not totally independent of concrete meaning. The border between the US and Canada is just as porous, Canadians can just as easily smuggle guns as Mexicans.

"Yeah. Funny thing. Britain's GINI index lies between Canada's and the US's. And yet it has a way lower homicide rate than the US, and a rate somewhat lower than Canada's. (It also has institutionalized poverty and exclusion, huge social disparities ...)"
There is no correlation between gun laws and crime. Britain only strengthens my case, because it doesn't show correlation. Why do you support policies when it is proven that they don't work? I never said those were the only factors.

"Gun laws do nothing, just as speed limits do nothing."
Traffic data shows statistically significant correlation between traffic laws and motor vehicle accidents. Traffic laws work.

[iverglas]

70. and once they're in Mexico

they're easy to obtain. Just like guns imported anywhere by any means.

The "availability of guns" is a meaningless term.

Cute, but silly.

There is no correlation between gun laws and crime.

Hack, hack, hack. Are you not choking on the straw? I think I must already have said this, but: go tell it to someone who made the assertion you are flailing at.

Gun laws do nothing, just as speed limits do nothing.
Traffic data shows statistically significant correlation between traffic laws and motor vehicle accidents. Traffic laws work.

Nope.

Enforcement of traffic laws is effective in some situations: the certainty of apprehension is the real deterrent.

Other measures to reduce vehicle speeds, like visible police presence, cameras, and traffic lights/stop signs and other elements of road design and traffic management, work better in many other situations.

Want to acknowledge that you get it at all?

[Taitertots]

77. They are not easy to obtain, the people who smuggled them keep them

"Availability of guns" is total non-sense. By your standards, guns are just as easy to obtain in Canada as they are in Mexico. Use real terms with actual meaning or everything you are trying to say is non-sense. Quantify your variable so it can be compared to other variables. All you are doing is being intelectually dishonest and showing us all that you are not interested in a reasonable discussion about the topic.

"Hack, hack, hack. Are you not choking on the straw?"
There is no straw, I'M the one saying it because it proves my point. I've repeated that numerous times.

"Nope."
You are wrong. There is significant evidence that traffic laws have correlation to traffic safety.
"Other measures to reduce vehicle speeds, like visible police presence, cameras, and traffic lights/stop signs and other elements of road design and traffic management, work better in many other situations."
Other variables certainly have correlation to traffic safety. It doesn't change the fact that traffic laws are also one of them.

[aikoaiko]

15. It true that some of us protect civil liberties zealously while others are disregard them....

...in the pursuit of their own cult-like misguided obsessions.

[Atypical Liberal]

13. Because hardly anyone is killed with them.

Assault weapons are designed to a lot of people quickly.

Why wouldn't any sane society not outlaw them?

Well, a couple of reasons for starters:

Firstly, only about 300 people are killed every year with all rifles, let alone assault rifles. That is about half as many as are killed with hands and feet.

Secondly, the AR-15 civilian assault weapon platform is the most popular center-fire target rifle in America. Millions of people own them.

So, given that hardly anyone is killed with them compared to the number of them in circulation, why would any sane society outlaw them?

[aikoaiko]

14. Because victims of grave injury threats should be able to use guns to defend themselves.

[iverglas]

18. ... even if they are drug traffickers

who need protection against other drug traffickers ... and the police ...

[aikoaiko]

19. I would think under some circumstances possibly....

...for example if the drug trafficker were not actively committing a felony or if the police officer was about to kill you without cause.

Where I live killing someone while engaged in a felony is felony murder and its possible for police officers to act criminally and be a threat. I'm sure a drug trafficker's occupation and the police officer's status would muddy things up depending on the other circumstances.

There are always gray areas I suppose.

[iverglas]

20. reeeeeeaaaach

but try not to hurt yourself!

Anyhow, I'm the one who always questions why the rest of you guys want "felons" prohibited from possessing firearms.

Surely they are in at least as much need of the tools of self-defence as anybody else.

[aikoaiko]

25. Its a good point that you bring up.

There is a line of thinking out there among some pro-RKBA advocates that if a felon has paid for his crime (prison, probation, parole, etc) completely, then they should not be prohibited from possessing a firearm. As a corollary their voting rights should be restored as well. I'm sympathetic to this line of reasoning, but its not a high priority issue for me.

I forget the phrase you use for this -- extra judicial sanctions?

[iverglas]

26. "the phrase you use for this"

Civil death. It was eliminated in the civilized world decades if not centuries ago.

re voting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=226&topic_id=5604&mesg_id=5796

re firearms possession:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=243145&mesg_id=244061


To take Canada as an example, people convicted of criminal offences have never been prohibited from voting, and several years ago the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that it is unconstitutional to deny inmates of correctional institutions the vote.

There is also no blanket bar on people convicted of criminal offences being licensed to possess firearms; there are mandatory firearms prohibition orders when someone is convicted of particular offences, as part of the sentence for the offence, which are time-limited.

Oh, and there is also no blanket bar on people with certain manifestations of mental illness or incompetence possessing firearms; the application for a licence contains questions about mental health and requires references and signature by a cohabiting partner.

[aikoaiko]

27. Civil death. We could learn something from our northern neighbors, eh?

A few things I suspect.

I thought you used another phrase for when sanctions were given for convictions but they were outside the usual sentencing guidelines in criminal law.

[iverglas]

30. mmm, you may be thinking

of "extra-judicial killing", but that's a little extreme. ;)

Or someone else may have mentioned

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_punishment

That's not really the case for voting/guns though since there is "legal authority", i.e. statutes that provide for the prohibitions.

It's the legal prohibitions themselves that certainly don't pass muster in jurisdictions that provide for equal treatment under (not just before) the law, since the provisions discriminate on non-rational grounds.

The examination of voting rights in that SCC case is interesting and I recommend it for people concerned about "felong disinfranchisement" in the US -- the reasons why the court rejected the govt's rationale. Denying the vote to inmates (and in your case convicted persons who are not incarcerated) was actually considered to do more harm than good, by exacerbating the exclusion of the individuals from society and thus reducing their adherence to societal norms and negatively affecting reintegration.

Sauvé v. Canada (Chief Electoral Officer), <2002> 3 S.C.R. 519, 2002 SCC 68
http://csc.lexum.org/en/2002/2002scc68/2002scc68.html

The punitive approach, while sometimes satisfying to the onlooker, just doesn't always get the desired results. Imagine if inmates actually felt that they had a stake in society that society recognized by making arrangements for them to vote in elections. It's not going to turn them all into pillars of society overnight, but it could just open a door.


edit - I'll just stick the headnote from Sauvé here. The considerations are not the same for firearms -- public safety isn't an issue in voting -- but the concepts are still interesting. With my emphases.

Per McLachlin C.J. and Iacobucci, Binnie, Arbour and LeBel JJ.:

To justify the infringement of a Charter right under s. 1, the government must show that the infringement achieves a constitutionally valid purpose or objective, and that the chosen means are reasonable and demonstrably justified. The government’s argument that denying the right to vote to penitentiary inmates requires deference because it is a matter of social and political philosophy is rejected. While deference may be appropriate on a decision involving competing social and political policies, it is not appropriate on a decision to limit fundamental rights. The right to vote is fundamental to our democracy and the rule of law and cannot be lightly set aside. Limits on it require not deference, but careful examination. The framers of the Charter signaled the special importance of this right not only by its broad, untrammeled language, but by exempting it from legislative override under s. 33's notwithstanding clause. The argument that the philosophically‑based or symbolic nature of the objectives in itself commands deference is also rejected. Parliament cannot use lofty objectives to shield legislation from Charter scrutiny. Here, s. 51(e) is not justified under s. 1 of the Charter.

The government has failed to identify particular problems that require denying the right to vote, making it hard to conclude that the denial is directed at a pressing and substantial purpose. In the absence of a specific problem, the government asserts two broad objectives for s. 51(e): (1) to enhance civic responsibility and respect for the rule of law; and (2) to provide additional punishment or “enhance the general purposes of the criminal sanction”. Vague and symbolic objectives, however, make the justification analysis difficult. The first objective could be asserted of virtually every criminal law and many non‑criminal measures. Concerning the second objective, nothing in the record discloses precisely why Parliament felt that more punishment was required for this particular class of prisoner, or what additional objectives Parliament hoped to achieve by this punishment that were not accomplished by the sentences already imposed. Nevertheless, rather than dismissing the government’s objectives outright, prudence suggests that we proceed to the proportionality inquiry.

Section 51(e) does not meet the proportionality test. In particular, the government fails to establish a rational connection between s. 51(e)’s denial of the right to vote and its stated objectives. With respect to the first objective of promoting civic responsibility and respect for the law, denying penitentiary inmates the right to vote is more likely to send messages that undermine respect for the law and democracy than messages that enhance those values. The legitimacy of the law and the obligation to obey the law flow directly from the right of every citizen to vote. To deny prisoners the right to vote is to lose an important means of teaching them democratic values and social responsibility. The government’s novel political theory that would permit elected representatives to disenfranchise a segment of the population finds no place in a democracy built upon principles of inclusiveness, equality, and citizen participation. That not all self‑proclaimed democracies adhere to this conclusion says little about what the Canadian vision of democracy embodied in the Charter permits. Moreover, the argument that only those who respect the law should participate in the political process cannot be accepted. Denial of the right to vote on the basis of attributed moral unworthiness is inconsistent with the respect for the dignity of every person that lies at the heart of Canadian democracy and the Charter. It also runs counter to the plain words of s. 3 of the Charter, its exclusion from the s. 33 override, and the idea that laws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.

With respect to the second objective of imposing appropriate punishment, the government offered no credible theory about why it should be allowed to deny a fundamental democratic right as a form of state punishment. Denying the right to vote does not comply with the requirements for legitimate punishment — namely, that punishment must not be arbitrary and must serve a valid criminal law purpose. Absence of arbitrariness requires that punishment be tailored to the acts and circumstances of the individual offender. Section 51(e) qua punishment bears little relation to the offender’s particular crime. As to a legitimate penal purpose, neither the record nor common sense supports the claim that disenfranchisement deters crime or rehabilitates criminals. By imposing a blanket punishment on all penitentiary inmates regardless of the particular crimes they committed, the harm they caused, or the normative character of their conduct, s. 51(e) does not meet the requirements of denunciatory, retributive punishment, and is not rationally connected to the government’s stated goal.

The impugned provision does not minimally impair the right to vote. Section 51(e) is too broad, catching many people who, on the government’s own theory, should not be caught. Section 51(e) cannot be saved by the mere fact that it is less restrictive than a blanket exclusion of all inmates from the franchise.

Lastly, the negative effects of denying citizens the right to vote would greatly outweigh the tenuous benefits that might ensue. Denying prisoners the right to vote imposes negative costs on prisoners and on the penal system. It removes a route to social development and undermines correctional law and policy directed towards rehabilitation and integration. In light of the disproportionate number of Aboriginal people in penitentiaries, the negative effects of s. 51(e) upon prisoners have a disproportionate impact on Canada’s already disadvantaged Aboriginal population.

Since s. 51(e) unjustifiably infringes s. 3 of the Charter, it is unnecessary to consider the alternative argument that it infringes the equality guarantee of s. 15(1) of the Charter.

(The bit about the Aboriginal population certainly applies mutatis mutandis to the African-American population in the US.)

[MyrnaLoy]

31. I was waiting for

the "more death by hands and feet" crowd. Those mass assaults by hand and feet scare the crap out of me. If only the NHFA (National Hand and Feet Association) would quit influencing lawmakers we could get some smart regulations against hands and feets. I actually blame ninjas for all the mass hand and feet massacre going on.

We didn't get the stupid hands and feet argument yet but we did get the "NONE of These are AKs" argument. Funny thing about that argument is That's how they are marketed! I have 3 gun shops locally and all 3 of them sell AKs! Says so on the tag. I've been to 3 gun shows recently and guess what? AKs for sale. It almost seems that they only want to call them AKs when they buy them. When they have to defend them they call them "semi auto sport rifles". I can see these guys with their buddies going all Rambo in the woods with their "semi-auto sporting rifles" in the woods hunting with 30 round clips. Wait, you can't use 30 round clips when you hunt.

Yup, when they buy them they are AKs, when they have to try and defend them they are "semi-auto sporting rifles". It's so easy here.

[oneshooter]

32. How would prevent a mass killing by a gunner 65yds away? Never answered that one. n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

33. well

didn't see the question but now that I did I'll answer with some questions. What separated the businesses? Parking lot maybe? What do you find in parking lots? I'm going to guess cars. Cars make good cover. Come on man, try harder. You've fantasized about these scenarios ever since you bought your fist gun. Quick draw in the mirror, combat rolls and all. See, I know you.

Also when I answered I was discussing the Arizona coward but ole Ralph next to the IHOP will also do. Both of them watched people died while they were armed.

[oneshooter]

34. So you admit that you really don't know shit, and you DAMN sure don't know me.

The photos I say showed damn few cars in the lot. Lots of open space. So you are going to get all Ninja Indian and "become one with the asphalt".

WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!!

A car is NOT "cover" it is,at the most concealment. a AK will pierce both sides of an automobile, and your dumb ass on the far side. Will you use your special ninja Indian powers to hide your self? Or maybe you will get down real low and combat crawl, using the lane marks to hide behind? Any way you look at it YOU DIE, and nobody will give a damn.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[gejohnston]

35. unless she gets to the front fender where the

engine would stop it. If she is really lucky, a 64 Cadillac will be there.

I found her wardrobe

http://egotvonline.com/2011/06/13/25-incredible-photos-of-urban-camouflage/

[MyrnaLoy]

36. you were there with

a camera taking pictures of cars when it happened? Cool, why didn't you shoot? Hahahahahaa You do realize you are making a fantastic point against owning assault rifles don't you? How it's hard to defend against them. When were you going to realize that genius? LMFAO!!!! On the internets we call that OWNED!

[gejohnston]

37. you are also talking about

a .30-30 lever action, a single shot .30-06, and a double barrel .600 Nitro Express. You realize that don't you?

[MyrnaLoy]

38. I have in the past but

right now we are talking about the AK. If we change it for you will it help your lame cause? Do you still want to tell us how hard it is to defend against the AK or now that it's been pointed out that you are actually realizing that is is a problem in society do you want to change the weapon? Which do you want?

[gejohnston]

39. I thought you were talking about rifle rounds

It is hard to defend against any rifle regardless of who designed it. The gun is not the problem, it is the mental health system. Was it really an AK variant? It is starting to look like the media labels all rifles as AKs or assault weapons. It reminds me of the every kid bitten by a dog was written up as being a pit bull. The problem was, most of the time when we asked animal control or the police, it was not a pit bull and they never gave the breed to the media. To say that I am cynical about local it bleeds-it-leads "news" outlets, you are correct. Am I skeptical of the quality of journalists these days? You betcha.

[oneshooter]

40. Still a non answer. You believe yourself to be humorous, but you are really pathetic and

pitiful. You can not answer a direct question and become a ass when asked to.
The question asked was not answered, and probably never will be because you are nothing more, and will never be more, than a pretender.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[gravity556]

67. The Arizona coward?

You mean the guy who was inside a store across the parking lot from where the shooting was that, once he realized he was hearing gunfire, ran toward the sound of the guns? That coward? What about the other folks who were at the speech that just stood and watched Loughner shooting people? Are they cowards?

As to the other guy you're referring to that had a pistol versus a rifle, why do you expect a man to commit suicide? Because that's what trying to close on a man with a rifle is when you've only got a pistol. Maybe, just maybe if he had been inside the location where the shooting was, he would have been able to kill the shooter, but it's pretty disingenuous to call either of them cowards. Dishonest as well, but you already knew that.

I and most of the folks I know that carry do so for SELF DEFENSE. We aren't cops, nor are we obliged to come to anyone's rescue.If you're unwilling to defend yourself, don't expect some CCWer to risk his or her life to do it for you. It's terrible that those shootings occurred, but the only way they could have been stopped would have been for someone in the crowd to have a gun.

[benEzra]

53. Most sporting rifles aren't used for hunting, because very few gun owners hunt.

I shot USPSA carbine matches for a few years with my AK (2002 model Romanian SAR-1, non-automatic like all civilian AK's) before switching to a Rock River .223 carbine. Did pretty well with the AK, considering that my rifle + optic cost less than some competitors' optics alone.



And yes, that's a Feinstein-ban-era AK, distinguished by the smooth muzzle and smooth gas block, and ban-era magazine. Contrary to Brady/MSM mythos, non-automatic civilian AK's and full-capacity AK magazines were never banned in this country, although marketing under a few red-herring names was banned between 1994 and 2004, and there was a brief spike rifle and magazine prices circa 1994-1996 until new imports caught up with demand.

Wait, you can't use 30 round clips when you hunt.

In many states, yes, if you're talking about deer rather than, say, feral hogs. But that's why they make the little 5-round hunting magazines, for those who are into hunting. I bought one just in case I got the opportunity to take up deer hunting (7.62x39mm duplicates the lighter loadings of .30-30 Winchester, which is sufficient for fairly small deer and/or fairly close range) but never went hunting.



And I'd love for you to explain how a civilian AK is somehow different from this hunting rifle. Same caliber, same rate of fire, same range of magazine capacities, essentially the same manual of arms (the safety placement is the primary difference). The AK is probably more durable, though, and I like the ergonomics better.

[ileus]

2. You're right, I'd better buy one (or two one to sell) while I still can.

I don't really need one but I've been wanting one for several years.

The AK is a classic that should be in everyone's collection that's serious about firearm history. Of course buying a high quality on instead of a elcheapo clone will cost you.


I also recommend buying two so you'll have a spare to sell when they do finally get around to banning their import. Hopefully American copies will still be on the market.

I also recommend buying a shist load of magazines...You'll see at least 300% profit even though there's millions on the market.

[Remmah2]

5. Drugs and guns, guns and drugs.

[Taitertots]

6. You read poorly done reporting and intentional misinformation

The AK-47 rifle is fully automatic and as far as I can tell from the articles NONE of those are fully automatic. Therefore none of them are AK-47's. Further, none of them are even assault rifles.

Why would you continue to read news sources that are intentionally lying to you?

[SteveM]

21. Maybe she goes along with the news sources' intent. nt

[iverglas]

62. is this dealer confused?

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/brand.aspx?mid=47

Or are you being disingenuous?

Maybe there's another option ...

[Taitertots]

78. That dealer is lying, none of those guns are AK-47's

They are preying on the ignorant.

[Remmah2]

8. AK-74 shootings are even more rare.

Ammo is cheaper too.

[ileus]

24. almost as rare as Mosin Nagant shootings...

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. Stats show rifles of all types are used in ~3% of all guncrime... of whch AKs make only a fraction.

I could probably use google to find dozens of cases of harlequin ichthyosis (a birth defect)... which in no way means such a condition is not extremel rare. The fact that I can find numerous occurrence of truly rare events is due more to modern effiecient internet search databases and complete record keeping rather than high frequency of something mistakenly believed to be rare.

Rather than anectdotal google searches... why not look at real DOJ/FBI statistics and see just how often AKs are used to commit crimes. The typical semiauto AK rifles makes up much less than 1% of active shootings/homicides (and even then it's no more deadly than many other semiauto rifles). Real full-auto AKs would make up much much less.

[Atypical Liberal]

12. The plural of anecdote is not "data"

The simple fact is, according to the FBI, all rifles, let alone assault rifles, account for only about 300 homicides every year. That is half has many as attributed to hands and feet.

Do people commit crimes with civilian versions of the AK-47? Sure. Does it happen often? No.

[krispos42]

16. So you have to go back to 1989?

And you think you're proving your point... how?


AK-47-pattern rifles are fairly common. The fact that when police raid a home they find one is not particularly astonishing. Do a similar search, except try looking for a shotgun.

[iverglas]

17. I used to do a semi-regular feature

Actually I think there were only a couple of instalments before I wandered off.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=173134&mesg_id=173134

iverglas
Sat May-24-08 06:38 PM
Original message
AK-47(ish) guns in the news

It was modeled on the format used in the Guns forum back when: a single "guns in the news" thread for the week, to avoid the proliferation of such theads.


... I cound 12 posters total, 3 graves in that thread. About par for the course, I'd say.

[benEzra]

51. Ummm-hmmmm. It proved the "rifles are involved in a minuscule percentage of violence" point nicely.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=173134&mesg_id=173276

I still don't think you read those anecdotes very closely, as most of them were rather at odds with your thesis, weren't they? :)

[iverglas]

58. ah, if only everyone would play your game, eh?

I've never claimed that "violence" -- or homicide, your other hobbyhorse -- was the sole or even biggest problem associated with rifles in the possession of criminals.

I just kind of, you know, assume that every time someone involved in drug trafficking or other organized crime activities is busted with one of these rifle things, they hadn't bought it to adorn the walls of their rec room.

They bought it because they consider it to be an important tool of their trade.

Not a trade I prefer to facilitate, myself.

[benEzra]

75. And yet the government keeps track of how often *ALL* classes of weapons are misused,

including rifles, and that rifles come in last, behind *ALL* other classes of weapons, including knives (also tools of the criminal trade, and owned/used as such far more often than rifles are), clubs (ditto), bare hands (ditto), shoes (ditto), and shotguns (ditto).

How often are blades found in possession of drug dealers, compared to rifles? How about shotguns, compared to rifles? How about impact weapons, compared to rifles? I think the government stats on their use in criminal violence makes that pretty clear, and that's not even accounting for the inherent Von Restorff bias in the differential reporting of rifle presence at crime scenes vs. the presence of handguns, blades, and impact weapons.

But that's OK. Keep wasting considerable hours of your time lambasting the sheer moral perversity of a country you don't live in allowing its citizens to own objects you disapprove of. (You do have your precious rifle bans in your country, right?)

I do think if you were to shoot rifles much yourself, you would probably come to find (perhaps grudgingly) that an inline-bore, adjustable-stock, direct-impingement, pistol-gripped .223 is a far more pleasant gun to shoot than the old-fashioned, offset-bore, larger-caliber guns you tacitly defend. But your choices are yours, mine are mine, and (thankfully) they will stay that way.

I think our right in this country to own rifles with handgrips and magazines that stick out is pretty secure now; that horse left the barn a long time ago. Rifle bans are just about as dead as alcohol prohibition; I think in the future, you'll eventually see the U.S. gun control lobby come around to focusing on criminal possession/misuse rather than lawful use, just as the alcohol control lobby did after the 18th Amendment and the Volstead bait-and-switch were finally consigned to their rightful place.

In the last month or two, I've possibly spent more time actually shooting my little oh-so-evil carbine than defending my right to own it, which is a rather nice state of things, actually. I'll have to take a bit of a hiatus from shooting next month (my son has another surgery scheduled at Boston Children's) and I may be a bit more active around the 'net then, but overall it's nice to not have to worry about new bans. Live and let live, and all that.

:hi:

[iverglas]

60. for our further info

Recent hauls, via google news results for ak47 drugs -perth or substituting narcotics for drugs:

(there's a big bust in Australia causing interference in the results)



Drug Bust Uncovers Pot, Cocaine, AK-47; Three People Charged
‎Cornell University The Cornell Daily Sun - Michael Linhorst - 1 Sep 2011
Police seized a total of 21 pounds of marijuana, 13 grams of cocaine and an AK-47 assault rifle — among other items — from the locations, Ithaca Police ...
Tompkins County Drug Bust‎ WENY-TV
all 3 news articles »

Gaylords charged with gun, drug and gang crimes
‎Chicago Tribune - David Heinzmann - 23 Aug 2011
Nine alleged members of the gang were charged with federal gun crimes, including selling an AK-47 assault rifle, and six others were charged with state drug ...

Police nab marijuana, meth, ecstacy and an AK-47 in bust in Gobles
‎Kalamazoo Gazette - MLive.com - John Liberty - 2 Sep 2011
... including this AK-47, in a search of a home in Gobles. GOBLES — Two Gobles men were arrested Monday morning after police found stolen property, drugs ...

MCSO arrests 3, seizes drugs and assault weapons
‎ABC15.com (KNXV-TV) - Patrick Lancaster - 23 Aug 2011
Leyva-Lopez had previously been deported in 2009 for felony drug charges and ... Four AK-47 assault rifles and one AR-15 assault pistol were also discovered ...

Murder Suspect Arrested After Police Recover Cache of Weapons, $30 ...
‎Patch.com - 1 Sep 2011
Police then arrested Houston and recovered the weapons, including an AK-47 and a stash of drugs with a street value of approximately $30000. ...

18 indicted on charges tied to violent drug cartel
‎The Seattle Times - Sara Jean Green - 19 Aug 2011
How many lives were destroyed with these drugs? ... including an AK-47 rifle, from apartments in Lynnwood and Puyallup, according to the ...

Sheriff Joe Arpaio busts drug smuggling ring
<thug he may be, but he didn't invent the guns>
‎Examiner.com - 24 Aug 2011
On Monday, Maricopa County sheriff's deputies took down a drug smuggling ring in Avondale, AZ. Several AK-47 assault rifles as well as $200000 worth of ...

Another drug ring busted
‎Pueblo Chieftain - Mike Sweeney - 18 Aug 2011
The drugs were smuggled from Mexico into California and then to Pueblo, ... BMW, motorcycle, a money counter, a pair of AK-47 rifles, an SKS rifle, ...

Unknown White Powder Found In Accused Teenage Shooter's Car
‎NBC Montana - Will Wadley - 23 Aug 2011
Connelly is accused of opening fire with an AK-47 at deputy last Friday night. ... "There are a lot of new designer drugs on the market,” says Flathead ...

North Charleston police get an earful
‎Charleston Post Courier - Schuyler Kropf - 30 Aug 2011
... violence that had plagued the city for years, including through drugs and guns. ... three guns outside one bar recently, including an AK-47-type weapon. ...

Alleged gang leader arrested in Belleville for murder
‎NorthJersey.com - Maria Karidis - 2 Sep 2011
... as an AK-47, Henderson said. The apartment's tenant Christen Houston was arrested and charged with several drugs and weapons offenses, Henderson said. ...

Police uncover gun cache
‎Camarillo Acorn - 19 Aug 2011
... firearms as well as drugs at his apartment in the 600 block of N. Las Posas Road. ... including an AK-47 assault rifle with a large-capacity magazine, ...

Van Buren cops: 12 marijuana plants, 28 guns seized in raid
‎Herald Palladium (subscription) - 4 Sep 2011
... drugs and guns were found in a search of a house in Pine Grove Township, ... of drug trafficking, and 28 long guns, including an AK-47 assault rifle. ...

Two Women Arrested After Police Find Pot Factory, Assault Weapons ...
‎Patch.com - Cassandra Day - 5 days ago
... AK-47) a shopping bag with three handguns (Smith & Wesson .44 cal, ... There was a large amount of narcotic packaging materials including scales, bags, ...


Drug manufacturing/trafficking and rifles just go hand in hand, it seems.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

22. Did you happen to notice...

...how the bulk of those stories did NOT involve shootings?

Don't let facts get in the way again though. We all know how much you have a problem with them.

[iverglas]

23. so?

I keep wondering why we are so bent on focusing on murders or even shootings.

"Maintenance personnel investigating a leak in an apartment Wednesday discovered a marijuana growing operation and a cache of weapons, including an AK-47, police said."

Firearms are used by criminals to facilitate crimes.

Perhaps most famously, they use firearms to facilitate robberies -- but it a street mugging, a residential robbery or a bank robbery.

These particular weapons are obviously favoured by organized crime / criminal gangs to facilitate their criminal enterprises.

Drug traffickers with AK-47s ... that they hang over their fireplaces for decoration, I've always assumed.


edit, lest I be subject to attacks of diversionary grooming

Everybody knows that the "AK-47s" involved in all these incidents are the clones legally available in the USA.

[chibajoe]

28. Apartments are used to facilitate crimes

also, apparently. Obviously, the solution is to outlaw apartments to make it harder for criminals to do criminal like things.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

29. Of course....

After all, the criminal never would have committed his criminal act were it not for the empowerment he gained from having an apartment and a gun...

[AtheistCrusader]

42. The assertion is commonly that fully-auto weapons are RARE, but moreso,

murders committed with long guns of all types are also a tiny percentage of all homicides.

So you pretty much fail, no matter how you look at it.

[Jenoch]

43. Many times news stories

give the AK-47 credit as being the weapon involved in a crime when actually it was not an AK-47. It is amazing but many law enforcement people know very little about firearms. Often, if a gun is scarey looking like an 'assault weapon' the cop puts AK-47 into the police report whether it is actually an AK-47 ot not. I read one of the links to the story and it described a semi-automatic AK-47 as an assault rifle. By definition an assault rifle is capable of fully automatic fire. A semi-automatic AK-47 operates the same as a semi-automatic Browning, Ruger, Remington, etc. 'deer rifle'.

[benEzra]

54. "Our organization...does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns."

"(O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. Rifles and shotguns are not the problem; they are not concealable."

That was written by Nelson T. "Pete" Shields, former head of what is now the Brady Campaign, writing in Guns Don't Die--People Do (Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48, emphasis added).

And rifle homicide is even less common now than it was then.

It wasn't until 1988 that the gun control lobby started agitating to ban modern-looking civilian rifles in hopes of building momentum for a ban on handguns. That was the real goal of going after "assault weapons"---handgun bans---since rifles are the least misused of all firearms. But you knew that, I suspect.

[Remmah2]

57. +1

Looks like they created a crisis to extend the life expectancy of the organization.

[Katya Mullethov]

59. A common and reoccurring theme

[iverglas]

61. ah, 1981; the good old days, eh?

Hell, nothing could have changed since then.

Rifles are the tools of the trade for drug manufacturers/traffickers ... quick! look over there! hardly any rifle homicides at all!

:eyes:

[Remmah2]

63. "Rifles are the tools of the trade for drug manufacturers"

When did Bayer Aspirin make rifles?

I don't think pain killers qualify.

[iverglas]

64. that's pretty sad

Can't even get the dumb remarks straight.

"Rifles are the tools of the trade for drug manufacturers"
When did Bayer Aspirin make rifles?

:eyes:

[friendly_iconoclast]

65. Well, "Heroin" was Bayer's trade name for diacetylmorphine, and they marketed it OTC for a while.

Needless to say, they don't publicize that much these days...

[iverglas]

66. still sad

I said that rifles are the tools of the trade for drug manufacturers/traffickers.

I did not say that drug manufacturers manufacture rifles.

In someone's eagerness to play the disingenuous tool about "drug manufacturers", they made themself look very silly.

[benEzra]

76. And that brings up an interesting collision between pharmacology and law/culture in the USA.

(Caution: sidetrack follows...)

To the body, diamorphine *is* morphine, being converted to morphine after crossing the blood-brain barrier; it just takes a less concentrated solution of diamorphine than morphine to produce the same effective dose in the brain. In the UK and much of Europe, diamorphine is used in trauma care, surgery, and palliative care the same way U.S. surgeons/critical care units use morphine and newer synthetic opioids.

In the United States, though, medical diamorphine is taboo, whereas versus medical morphine is not, yet the dangers of misused diamorphine are exactly the dangers of misused morphine, no more and no less. In palliative care, its enhanced fat solubility vs. morphine actually has some benefit in reducing dose peaks and valleys, allowing the same pain relief with a lower effective dose.

It's an interesting disconnect; the Harrison Narcotics Act of 1919 originally treated morphine and diamorphine the same, but Congress banned the latter in 1924. The legislative history of the 1924 law would be an interesting study, I think.

I think Bayer's mistake was in promoting diamorphine as less addictive than morphine if misused, since (as we now know) they are the same thing to the brain. So the diamorphine taboo may have originated as something of a backlash against those mistaken claims, I don't know.

[Remmah2]

69. I guess I'm officially owned.

You are the master of dumb remarks.

[Uncle Omar]

71. Ban Assault guns

No one needs guns used in wars to kill people. The have bullet clips that holds many bullets that can kill many people. They should be ban.

[gravity556]

72. Your eloquence is unmatched.

[oneshooter]

73. So get them banned, take them up. How are you going to pay for them? n/t

[benEzra]

74. By all means, restrict assault guns. You might want to look up the term "assault gun", though. :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_gun

An "assault gun" is a howitzer or field gun mounted on a tank chassis.


Sturmgeschütz III Ausf G Assault Gun

Those are already very tightly controlled by U.S. Federal law. Although not as tightly controlled as actual military AK-47 and M16/M4 assault rifles are, contrary to popular belief.


BTW, how do you feel about these weapons of war?