Why "high capacity" matters. (graphic)

[Atypical Liberal]

This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess
of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill. There was another incident where a subject
was shot inside of his vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to
fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head. In this same
incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never
penetrated through the seat. In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or
rear window. Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

(Warning: Link contains graphic images)

Firearms are only effective when they have ammunition. Thus the more ammunition it carries, the longer it can remain effective. The above presentation demonstrates why it is important to carry as many rounds as possible in a defensive weapon, and why the police do so.

[hedgehog]

1. and you keep the guns that can fire many rounds out of the hands of criminals, how?

Also - from your link - the conclusion is:

"Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
and always the key to stopping a threat
effectively."


which would seem to indicate it's better to properly place a few shots than to count on firing a hundred and hoping for the best.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. Well, it would be wholly more effective to work at keeping guns out of criminal hands altogether

rather than only trying to keep guns that can fire many rounds out of the hands of criminals.

Programs like NICS checks and actually enforcing/updating lists of people unqualified to own guns do alot to combat this. In the end, the number of rounds a gun can be fired by a criminal is irrelevent because they will either ignore the law (and use one of the billions of magazines already out there) or they will just become competent at reloading. It's a fruitless effort that just leads to more useless laws.

[gejohnston]

3. to answer your question

good question. UK and Europe can't seem to keep sub machine guns out of the hands of criminals, let alone pistols. Yes, they have fewer shootings but machine gun use is higher there than here.

"Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
and always the key to stopping a threat
effectively."

There is that school of thought. Although I never had the misfortune, I can picture it is easier said than done when add the extra adrenaline flow and a healthy amount of fear.
Of course, for the most part, cops carry what they are given and told too.

[iverglas]

8. my god this hobbyhorse is boring

I believe you came up with two instances of "machine guns" being used in crime in the UK.

One was something left over from WWII or some such, was it not?

The sort of thing that no self-respecting criminal in the US would consider using, but that criminals in the UK are left with.

[gejohnston]

19. no

Unlike some, I have better things to do than look for crime articles in newspapers. Uzis and Ingrams are not WWII vintage.
You mean this one and the drive by? The drive by was with an MAC-10.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23419742-i-bought-a-sub-machinegun-within-24-hours.do
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/04/16/britain-living-in-the-shadow-of-the-gun-can-we-learn-from-the-bronx-approach-115875-23064423/

[iverglas]

25. "I have better things to do than look for crime articles in newspapers"

Apparently, you not having done a very good job there.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF05.htm

There's one to bookmark.


2009-10
Firearms Offences
England and Wales

firearms homicides: 40 (steady decline from 97 in 2001-02)


present population of England and Wales: 53,390,300

You do realize that this means that if the US had had the same rate of firearms homicide it would have had something like 230 firearms homicides in 2009?

And you do know how many firearms homicides there actually were in the US in 2009, right?

So ... you're kidding with all this, right?

Big Brother is starting now.

[gejohnston]

28. I said specifically machine gun

since machine gun crimes are very rare to non existent in the US, you get the point.

If you can cite them, then I can cite GOA, same difference.

[Angus86]

4. Of course

Of course it's "better to properly place a few shots than to count on firing a hundred and hoping for the best."

The problem is, neither you, me or the police are the Lone Ranger, and likely won't be shooting any guns out of the bad guys hands. The sad fact is people often miss what they're aiming at, whether due to high stress, adrenaline, shooting at a moving target or any number of things that can and do go wrong when all heck breaks loose and you find your life in danger. No one is advocating firing "hundreds of rounds and hoping for the best," it's just that it's better to have bullets left over than to not have enough for those one or two "properly placed shots."

[Atypical Liberal]

52. You can't.

and you keep the guns that can fire many rounds out of the hands of criminals, how?

You can't.

Also - from your link - the conclusion is:

"Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
and always the key to stopping a threat
effectively."

which would seem to indicate it's better to properly place a few shots than to count on firing a hundred and hoping for the best.

Shot placement absolutely is the most important thing. But as the encounter shows, good shot placement is not always possible, resulting in over a hundred rounds being fired by the police before stopping the criminal.

[SteveM]

61. Some of my Dad's old firearms texts reveal concerns over shot placement...

when the debate over the power of the .38 Special round (already souped up from the old .38) was brought into question: it bounces of windshields at certain angles, it is diverted by car sheet metal, it has little stopping power, etc. Hence, the .357 magnum (also in demand as an early hunting handgun round).

It seems that the ratio of a "stop" to rounds fired by LEO may be little different than for "enemy neutralized" in wars.

[SteveM]

60. The debate of "shot placement" and firepower has been going on for 200+ years...

and underwrites both military training and the adoptation of arms types. One side says shot placement or accuracy is pre-eminent; the other says firepower is more important. Currently, the latter view is most dominant, since the technologies for full-auto fire and mass manufacture of ammunition have negated to a large degree the "shot placement" side's concerns over waste and more precise warfare. SEE: American Rifle -- A Biography, by Rose, the author of Washington's Spies.

I think in all this debate was the realization that armed forces, and even more limited local law enforcement, cannot rely on precise-aiming skills, but scared if brave everyday people. Perhaps the whole debate rests on our own American mythology of being accurate, long-range shooters -- a myth already in full effect by Concorde.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. A high capacity cannister of sleeping agent fired into the car might have ended it sooner. Not

too many people don breathing apparatus when going on a rampage.

[rrneck]

6. Put the remote down

and get outside for a while.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. No way, I'm not leaving this couch for nuthin.... another option would be to make projectiles

that carry a charge, that would probably get someone's attention real quick.

http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218392332


A nine millimeter bullet like this could be filled with piezoelectric material.
image: ABC News

[rrneck]

29. Very "high tech" and "cutting edge"!

http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/dn7557
"Details are sketchy but parent company the MDM Group in Santa Clara recently filed nternational patents for a "piezoelectric ncapacitation projectile" which are more telling."

You'll have more luck with this:



Set to stun of course.

:rofl:

[PavePusher]

38. My guess is that to be effective, this will still have the speed and density of a normal bullet...

and thus be just as lethal.

[SteveM]

62. "Exploding bullets" have been discussed at least as far back as l880s...

by Theodore S. Van Dyke, the author of the classic deer hunting book, The Still Hunter (1882?).

He didn't think much of them and didn't use them.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. How'd that work out at the moscow theater hostage situation?

Dosage is important.

If someone is firing a gun at you, lethal force in response is justified.

[iverglas]

13. was there a hostage in this situation?

Not that I noticed. Granted, the equipment wasn't likely to hand. Flash-bang might have worked nicely ... but if they had one, it was likely in the trunk ...

[AtheistCrusader]

17. No, just that it's a partially open air environment

that would give an anesthesiologist fits to calculate dosage. Too little, no effect. Too much, dead anyway.

Russia tried the same thing in the theater tragedy, and killed something like 1/4 of the hostages anyway.

[Maine_Nurse]

23. You have never experienced a flash bang I would assume...

He would have been just as dead but possibly less intact given the enclosed area. Why not just a frag grenade?

ETA: oops, my bad. It was the other incident mentioned that took place in a vehicle.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. Yes it's justified, other options may one day be created.

http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=art...


A nine millimeter bullet like this could be filled with piezoelectric material.
image: ABC News

[Atypical Liberal]

53. Yes, they may.

I hope some day that a weapon will be invented that is nonlethal yet has the range, accuracy, and capacity of firearms, and that they are allowed for civilian purchase. Such weapons could revolutionize self-defense, law-enforcement, and maybe even warfare.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

72. Thank you for your honest, non biased opinion on this matter. n/t

[oneshooter]

73. However, till that day comes about we are stuck using what we have to work with. n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

77. Buford Pusser had it going on.... not much range though. n/t

[oneshooter]

78. In the real world ol Buford would be dead 10 times over. n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

79. Mebbe so but his memory would live on in the hearts of those who went to bat for

him... lololololololol.

[PavePusher]

37. Right. Ummm... reading a little too much science fiction, maybe?

There are currently no such items that are sufficiently effective to advocate their general use to replace firearms.

[X_Digger]

71. 'Sleeping Agent'?!? Big Ian Fleming fan, are you? n/t

[iverglas]

7. and a member of the public needs to be shooting at someone inside a car

... why, now?

Like, that was the one and only reason offered in this thing for why lots of ammunition was needed.

The police are not using their firearms as "defensive weapons" and it's time for this deception to stop.

They carry and use firearms as LAW ENFORCEMENT weapons.

If their concern in this instance was self-preservation, it would seem to me they could simply have left the scene. (Yes, one officer was already wounded ... but give me a break, is there some chance in real life that a member of the public is going to be ambushed by someone with the firepower this person had, as those cops were?)

By the way, I'm not persuaded that in addition to being "graphic", the material in question is not illegally published on that website. I doubt that autopsy photographs are ordinarily disseminated to the public in this way.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Returning fire at a drive-by

Sometimes the shooters stop their vehicle. Sometimes they get out and pursue. Granted this tends to be more of a gang warfare or cartel warfare issue.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. re: police...

The police are not using their firearms as "defensive weapons" and it's time for this deception to stop.

5 (1) A member of a police force must not draw a firearm in the performance of his or her duty unless the member has reasonable grounds for believing it necessary for

(a) protecting his or her life or the life of another person, or

(b) apprehending or detaining a person whom the member believes to be dangerous.

<< http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/police/r203_98.htm >>

In your mind is "...protecting his or her life..." with a firearm, not using a firearm as a "defensive weapon"?

[iverglas]

27. over and over and over and over and over

Why is a cop in a position to need to protect their life?

Gosh. I wonder whether it could be because they are engaged in a public law enforcement duty ...

So like I said. They are using a firearm as a tool with which to perform that duty, in the course of which they may be required to risk death or injury.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

56. "Why...

"...is a cop in a position to need to protect their life?"

Your admission is noted and appreciated. Have a nice day. :)

[krispos42]

32. Or outside a car.

Bullets going out-to-in have the same effectiveness as bullets going in-to-out.

:shrug:

Guy tries to carjack me. I draw on him, he ducks down below my line of sight and starts shooting. I shoot back.


Same scenario for, say, confronting an intruder trying to get inside your house.


Shit happens. Every been in a bad car wreck?


I've had two cars wrecked around me. Both times it was somebody else's fault, luckily, but it doesn't change the fact that right afterwards you're thinking 'thank god I wasn't driving ____________ when that guy plowed into me.' I'm glad that in my most recent, I was driving an '05 Subaru instead of the '89 Olds I had prior. Now, in the specific way I was wrecked, it probably wouldn't have mattered. But if the guy had t-boned me on the driver's door rather than the passenger's, or if I had been carrying a passenger in the front seat, then yeah, it probably would have made a big difference. I walked away from that one without a scratch. Not necessarily true if I had been in the Olds.

Well, same thing with guns. After a situation where a person had to use a gun, people rarely complain that they had too much ammo loaded.

People shoot until the threat is ended, or until the gun runs out of ammo. Since the purpose of armed self-defense is to end the threat, it is clearly important to carry enough ammunition.


Don't get all cranky. The perennial top-five handgun in America is the classic 1911-model semi-auto... which comes with either a 7 or 8 round magazine. Which means that tons of people choose to deliberately limit themselves to 8 or 9 rounds in the gun. Lots of people love revolvers, which typically carry 5 or six rounds. And lots of people that are taking advantage of liberalized concealed-carry laws are doing so with pocket guns of 6 or 7 rounds capacity.

[Remmah2]

51. The solution is simple.

We ban cars.

[safeinOhio]

9. Police rounds, hollow points are known

to lack penetration. I know an officer that shot a pit bull in the chin. It bounced off. Detroit police have recorded problems with police rounds being stopped by heavy winter coats. It is a trade off. Penetration vs stopping power. Alternating rounds can solve some of this.

There are many, many cases of death by a single 22 cal round also.

As for personal self defense here are some stats.

• 55% of gunfights take place 0-5 feet.
• 20% of gunfights take place in 5-10 feet.
• 20% of gunfights take place in 10-21 feet.
• 95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI)
• The average man can cover 21 feet of ground in 1.5 seconds.
• The average man cannot draw a gun from concealment in under 2 seconds.
• Seek and use cover. Be aware of false cover. (ie bushes - that's concealment, not cover)
• The average gunfight is over in 3-5 seconds.
• 3 to 4 shots are usually fired.
• Most gunfights take place in low light conditions.
• On average, one shot in four strikes someone.

[spin]

15. Good post. ...

While I don't have the statistics at hand it is often true that a person can be shot once or more and continue to attack.

The best way to survive an attack is to not be there when it happens. That's why situational awareness is probably more important than carrying a firearm for self defense.

[safeinOhio]

16. I never carry a cannon with high cap mags.

If I did, I'd never carry in the summer. There are no holsters that hide a cannon well or are comfortable. I only have 5 rounds in my 32 pocket/belly pistol. With in firing a couple of rounds, I'll be well past that 21 feet as I run pretty good for an old fart.
In general, I only carry when traveling or out walking in the country. Dogs scare me more than crooks. I can out run most crooks.

[spin]

18. I also carry a revolver with only 5 rounds ...

an S&W Model 642 .38+P or a Model 60 .38/.357.

If I was a cop or if I had really good reason to feel I was a target, I would carry a firearm with higher capacity. Since I realize that my odds of being attacked are very slim, I have no problem carrying a handgun with far less capacity than say a Glock 17 with a standard magazine that holds 17 rounds.

I do carry a speedloader that gives me five more rounds if I have time to reload.

[PavePusher]

40. Cannon?

You are buying into Hoyt's schtick.

Fortunately I currently live in Arizona and can carry a 1911, or any other full-sized pistol, year-round. I am not required to tailor my self-defense to the irrational phobias of the ignorant.

[gravity556]

55. You should check out the Crossbreed Supertuck

Fantastic holster. Very stable, good retention and makes a G19 vanish even in AZ summer gear-meaning shorts and a t-shirt.

[PavePusher]

39. One correction: Hollow-points are not restricted to police, nor should they be.

"dumbed out bullets" being quite irrelevent...

[Kennah]

43. Jim Cirillo told of a guy taking 11 rounds of .38 Special to the face point blank ...

... and ten minutes later he walked on his own to the ambulance. Of course, NYPD were using standard pressure .38 Special RNL at the time, which is a suck round.

[DissedByBush]

20. Or fewer rounds, but BIG bullets!

Rock a .44 special or magnum instead of that puny .40 S&W.

:)

[gejohnston]

22. personally I would

pick the .44 special of the two. Recoil and no way I could hide a magnum under a tee shirt in Florida.

[SteveM]

63. Jeff Cooper said the .44 Spl was comparable to the .45 ACP, his favorite.

I don't know of anyone who uses the .44 magnum for law enforcement, but I'm sure there are some. IIRC, it was developed for purposes of hunting.

Looking past the .45, he not only liked the .44 Spl, but also the .455(?) Webley if one were choosing a revolver.

[Hoyt]

75. Oh, No. A discussion of the best caliber to shoot someone sitting in a car.

We go from best gun to shoot people fleeing a hurricane to someone in a car. What's Next -- best gun for shooting a sleeping homeless person?

[Hoyt]

24. How many gunners here plan on shooting a man inside a vehicle from outside?

That happens when police apprehend a suspect, not when someone is supposedly defending themselves.

[gejohnston]

26. from what I gather

some of us are police. To honestly answer your question, if some asshole is trying to run over you for one.

[Hoyt]

30. Unlike many gunners here, I'm all for police carrying guns. I doubt anyone here will need to shoot

shoot someone in a car. But, if you are conjuring up things to be prepared for -- as a private citizen -- I guess that's about as irrational as most of the other reasons folks on here carry.

Although recently I have come to appreciate how many gunners here make money from their bad habit -- makes it difficult to be objective and explains the promotion of more and more guns in public.

[rl6214]

31. WTF do you know?

"Unlike many gunners here, I'm all for police carrying guns"

You said it, you gotta cite it. Come on buddy boy, I'm sure you've got this one covered, right?

Got one more here, surely you've got something to back this gem up with as well:

"Although recently I have come to appreciate how many gunners here make money from their bad habit"

[gejohnston]

33. were you a scout?

shoot someone in a car. But, if you are conjuring up things to be prepared for -- as a private citizen -- I guess that's about as irrational as most of the other reasons folks on here carry.

for what? I don't carry and I thought of it off the top of my head. I doubt a lot of things will happen, but it always pays to

[gravity556]

34. Talk about a presumptive statement!

"Unlike many gunners here, I'm all for police carrying guns. "

So who, exactly, said that? I will admit that I find the overuse of SWAT teams to be an issue, as well as believing that the police, being a civilian organization, should have no access to any weapons not commonly available to a private citizen. If the dangerous criminal's neighbors can't have an MP5 to defend them from their drug gang neighbors-people who are notoriously lackadaisical about what laws they feel like following. They also don't let things like the fact that it's illegal to possess a firearm while you are in possession of drugs, or that prior drug convictions are also a disqualifier. Why would they give a flying fuck if it's illegal to convert a gun into a machine gun or if it's illegal to have a magazine larger than ten rounds?

Why shouldn't the people who have to live next to them have access to weapons as good as the police? Of course, maybe it would be good to limit SWAT to semi-autos only. At least until they demonstrate the ability to use a fucking GPS and kick in the door of the RIGHT FUCKING HOUSE every time. Then they can have their toys back. But disarm the cops? You pulled that out of your ass.

[Hoyt]

35. Just read through the threads, folks bash police on here all the time.

And more than a few think they are in a "private" police/judiciary, or some such junk.

[safeinOhio]

36. I bash the bad one and support the good ones.

Just like plumbers, you got good one and assholes.

[PavePusher]

41. Aren't we still waiting for some pictures from you?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cite

[Hoyt]

42. Here ya be.

[PavePusher]

44. Nifty, but a poor fit for both pistols.

Anyway, I prefer leather, if possible.

http://bellcharteroakholsters.com/pancakes.html

http://www.mernickleholsters.com/ps/ps10dgr2.html

[Kennah]

45. Is now a bad time to mention the color teal?

[PavePusher]

47. I prefer chartreuse.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

57. We were...

...considering chartreuse for the powder room. It's a stomach flu friendly color. ;)

[SteveM]

67. Leather. Kinky. nt

[SteveM]

66. Ah, the infamous "gun or two...."

;-)

[Hoyt]

69. Actual holster marketed to those who need a little extra support.

[rl6214]

70. That looks more like a jock strap.

:rofl:

[Hoyt]

74. But it's real and apparently popular among some of you guys. There's even a video for you.

But I ain't looking. Talking about ROTFLMAO -- some of the crap you gunners wear and buy is way out there.

http://www.e-junkie.com/shop/product/63350.php

Enjoy and let us know how you like if you buy one -- assuming you don't already have one or two.

[gejohnston]

76. I am guessing that

not very many of us if it was not recognized. I don't picture it at a sporting goods store near you any time soon.

[gravity556]

46. And?

Criticizing police misbehavior isn't saying cops should be disarmed. So you're saying you pulled that comment out of your ass in an effort to smear pro-rights advocates.

[rl6214]

48. "just read through the threads"?

You are the one that made the claim and bashing police is not the same as your very specific accusation.

Your specific accusation:

"Unlike many gunners here, I'm all for police carrying guns."

YOU provide the specific quotes from many gunners here that say police should not be carrying guns.

I'll wait.

[oneshooter]

49. I only know of one. And he advocates for British laws. n/t

[SteveM]

65. Some police need "bashing," but that does not equate to disarming them. nt

[oneshooter]

68. You need to change your diet. Seems like the same old shit keep coming out. n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

58. I guess it's a selfish pursuit.

A quote comes to mind:
"You know who's going to inherit the Earth? Arms dealers; because everyone else is too busy killing each other."

;)

[SteveM]

64. What do you think about the continued prohibition of now-illegal drugs?...

I note: "...I have come to appreciate how many gunners here make money from their bad habit."

[Remmah2]

50. Stopping several armed home invaders at my front door.

Especially if the individuals were chemically impaired. Another valid reason for factory design standard OEM magazines.

[Atypical Liberal]

54. That's not really the point.

The point here is that in a gunfight many rounds don't hit, and even ones that do may not stop the threat.

But suppose someone was stealing my car with my child strapped into his car seat in the back?

Suppose someone was trying to get into my car to carjack me?

[NYC_SKP]

59. Tattoo around the perpetrator:

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger".

Okie dokie.

Hmmm. I was just having a lunch discussion with a really great guy who served just one tour in Iraq about misunderstandings about guns, based mostly on movies.

I pointed out and he agreed that most people think one or two shots from a handgun or rifle instantly kills a person.

Far from it, I said, and went on to make the case for high capacity mags or shotguns as a preferred stopper.