Armed-mob home invasion; wave of the future?

[Remmah2]

"ABOUT 11 P.M. on Sept. 9, dozens of youths with bats and pipes descended on a tidy residential area of Port Richmond looking for white teens who allegedly had attacked an African-American kid at Stokely Playground a couple of hours earlier."

"They were standing on his steps. One shouted, " 'Something's going to happen now!' " LaVelle recalled in an interview Friday at his house. LaVelle got nervous and went back inside, locking his door with a deadbolt.

But the attackers pounded on his front windows and kicked his wooden door so hard, it flew open and some of them entered his house."

"He said that he was able to push the attackers out the door, but then a third man - who had a gun...."


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110927_Chased_home__Mob_attacks_man_in_his_house.html?cmpid=124488459

Armed with a firearm or pitchforks and bats, a mob is a mob, no German Shepherd or touchy feely talk is going to stop a mob from invading your home.

[Enrique]

1. this was staged by the promoters of "Straw Dogs"

how's that for a conspiracy theory? :tinfoilhat:

[hedgehog]

2. Some will present this as proof that everyone needs to be armed and

ready to defend themselves rather than relying on the police. I see it as a sample of what happens when people are armed and ready to defend themselves rather than relying on the police. The mob was engaged in street justice.

[Atypical Liberal]

3. Not rather than...

Some will present this as proof that everyone needs to be armed and ready to defend themselves rather than relying on the police.

I don't think anyone thinks that they should be armed and ready to defend themselves rather than relying on the police. Instead, you should be armed and ready to defend yourself in case you need to do so before the police are there to help you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Never mind that in this specific case an UNarmed man kept the mob

out of his house until the police DID show up.

[Atypical Liberal]

13. Never mind he was 5'10" and 220 pounds.

"LaVelle, 5 feet 10, 220 pounds, a well-known sports-league organizer and coach in the community"

Sounds like LaVelle was a pretty tough guy to take on. But I digress. I have no problem with people who feel that they can rely on their own physical strength to overcome violent criminals. More power to 'em.

It's not the choice that I would make, and I bet you that a trip to the gun store is in Mr. Lavelle's future.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. They'll be *lots* of trips to the gun store for Port Richmond residents.

And I daresay there will have been some already.

[spin]

4. Choosing to own firearms is an individual choice ...

and sometimes it proves to be a wise decision if you are willing to take the time to learn firearm safety, become proficient with your weapon and study the laws for self defense in your state.

[Maine_Nurse]

6. Some of us don't have police to depend on...

We have a 30-40 minute response time since we and the towns surrounding us have no police forces. In other places, the police are so busy that response times are high. Police don't generally get somewhere in time to protect, only investigate after the event.

[Atypical Liberal]

5. That guy needed a shotgun or an assault rifle.

That guy is lucky he made it out with just a black eye. He's lucky his whole family didn't end up dead, plus the two kids he was sheltering.

If this had been my house there would have been a stack of bodies at the door after they kicked it in, as I would have been filling the doorway with 7.62x39 from my evil assault rifle and high-capacity magazines.

[Dogtown]

10. Human wave.

Perhaps with a hardened pillbox, a clear-cut field of fire, and a 7.92 Spandau you *might* be able to dominate a mob, but it's still an iffy situation for a lone defender.


Frankly, you might have better luck with a Molotov.

Guns are fine, but a really stout door, high-quality multiple locks, and barred windows would have been a better, and cheaper, option.


Unless the mob starts tossing fire-bombs.

You can go to extremes worrying about "what-ifs", or you can get on with your life. If you happen to enjoy guns (as I do) they can be handy in some million-to-one situations.

It's seriously nuts to wrap your whole life around extremely rare possibilities, but if you're enjoying your hobby, go for it. &, it just might save someone's life someday.

[Atypical Liberal]

12. I doubt it.

Perhaps with a hardened pillbox, a clear-cut field of fire, and a 7.92 Spandau you *might* be able to dominate a mob, but it's still an iffy situation for a lone defender.

I doubt it. The mob fled at the sound of police sirens. I bet at the sound of gunfire they would have fled even faster. Especially as bodies started piling up in the doorway.

Guns are fine, but a really stout door, high-quality multiple locks, and barred windows would have been a better, and cheaper, option.

Thankfully I have never lived anywhere where I needed bars on the windows, and in fact when we have shopped for houses the sight of bars on the windows is an instant tip-off that this is not the part of town where we would want to live.

My first thought was a non-breechable door, also, but in some places this is illegal.

You can go to extremes worrying about "what-ifs", or you can get on with your life. If you happen to enjoy guns (as I do) they can be handy in some million-to-one situations.

Who's worrying and not getting on with their life?

[Dogtown]

28. Collective "you".

Not meant as a personal attack. Sorry for my imprecision.

If they ran when they heard sirens, they didn't want to hurt the vic that bad anyway. No threat that a stout door wouldn't have contained; thus, a firearm would most likely have provoked return fire, a fusillade of rocks, or any number of unpredictable and unpleasant responses and would have served no useful purpose. Other than enriching the defense-attorney you *damn* well better hire after you've shot someone, self-defense or not.

A solid-wood door with police-locks is never illegal. Much better than the foam-core, mild steel that Home Depot foists on us.

Think about your statement about barred windows for a tick: if bars are not necessary, neither is your arsenal. We're discussing (despite the hyperbolic fear-mongering of the OP) an extremely rare situation anyway. Even in "tough" neighborhoods.

Fact is, if you're (the empiric "you") attacked by an armed mob, it's most likely to be five-oh taking down the wrong house.

*If* you feel it's necessary to be heavily armed for self-defense in a static position, it's somewhat foolish to neglect fortifying your abode, a much better defense than exposing yourself to a spray-and-pray situation.

Plan-prepare-execute. And run if you get the chance. Much better than standing your ground heroically and getting bashed, or impoverished by legal-fees for taking avoidable action.

That's not nearly as engaging or gratifying to the ego, but it's all fantasy anyway. As you stated, they ran.

[Atypical Liberal]

29. Laws against non-breachable doors.

If they ran when they heard sirens, they didn't want to hurt the vic that bad anyway.

Well, since one of the mob came with a firearm, I'd say it was a risky bet.

A solid-wood door with police-locks is never illegal. Much better than the foam-core, mild steel that Home Depot foists on us.

I remember reading about places where it is illegal to have a door that cannot be breached by the police. This probably has some fire-safety connotation along with it, I don't know. Anyway you may be limited on how strong a door you are allowed to have by law.

Think about your statement about barred windows for a tick: if bars are not necessary, neither is your arsenal. We're discussing (despite the hyperbolic fear-mongering of the OP) an extremely rare situation anyway. Even in "tough" neighborhoods.

This is correct. Likewise I have never had a house fire, so neither smoke detectors nor fire extinguishers are necessary, either. I've never had a flood, so neither is flood insurance. I like being prepared for rare emergencies, especially when it is trivial to be prepared.

Plan-prepare-execute. And run if you get the chance. Much better than standing your ground heroically and getting bashed, or impoverished by legal-fees for taking avoidable action.

I don't have a problem with those who decide that their best course of action is to flee or submit to their attackers. But we should admire, not admonish, those who choose to take a stand against injustice, even at grave personal risk to themselves.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

53. re: unbreachable doors

I like unbreachable doors a lot.
I'll be playing the megamillions today.

If I win: Adirondack Atlas F ;)

Failing that rely on punji sticks and foo gas.

:sarcasm:

[GreenStormCloud]

18. A pump 12 gauge with buckshot would have sufficed.

"I can't get all of you, but I can get a few. Who wants to be first?" If the guy in the mob with the gun tries to draw it then he goes first.

[Dogtown]

27. Works on TV, anyway.

Real life is actually quite different, though.

An intent mob, emotionally charged, will over-run the lone shotgunner before a 2nd shot is fired.
*Maybe* that 1st shot will avenge his death, but just as likely it will miss altogether, since it will be rushed.

Much difference between paper targets or even turkeys and a blood-thirsty mob intent on real violence against the shooter. Adrenaline & unaccustomed danger tend to be spoilers.



Real life:
Barricade yourself behind a stout door, and wait for professionals to engage them from behind. If they do break through, they'll be funneled by the door. Aim for the legs to increase the tangle.
Pray if you've a mind for that, cause you'll likely find out what's across the river...

[SteveM]

35. Has your residence ever been attacked by a mob like this?

You have presented to many possibilities, is this from experience?

[Dogtown]

39. No.

Training and common sense.

As opposed to learning combat technique from TV westerns.

[SteveM]

40. "TV westerns." Who learns "combat techniques" from them? nt

[Dogtown]

43. I'm not going to argue with you

so don't bother trying to bait me.


The posters that I was discussing this matter with advocated attempting to face down a mob with a shotty.

They didn't learn that from any defense academy.

I'd admonish you to stick to the discussion topic rather than attacking me, but it's clear to me what your tactics and stance are.

I won't respond to any more posts from you. I consider this traffic to be a waste of time.


BTW, it's "too" many...

[SteveM]

44. I'd say you are too sensitive regarding this topic, but...

you really are too brittle and boorish.

[Dogtown]

48. Then why bother to continue?

BTW, "No" means "No".

[SteveM]

51. And yet you are here.

BTW, if you wish to cut off discussion -- your "no" -- you have already stopped following your own advice. No tricks here.

This forum is one of the most unique anywhere: A pro-2A site within a broader liberal/left organization. It's mere presence gives the lie to the rather recent culture of gun-control that has accreted to Democratic Party politics, and onto liberal politics in general. My purpose here is to convince fellow progressives that any true resurgence of progressive politics should be accomplished by ditching the wholly negative prohibitionist social policy of gun-control/prohibition. And part of this prohibitionism is the myth that pro-2A folks get their larnin' from T.V. westerns, an art form cited by gun-controllers almost exclusively.

I always welcome discussion with those with whom I disagree (I have never "canned" anyone), but I will often ask questions which go to things like "westerns," the "wild west," and any number of other negatives expressions seen in other threads. I think it is fair and reasonable to do so.

Please note that I have not insulted you in any way, though on occasion I have thumbed some others for their remarks. ;-)

[PavePusher]

46. Hoyt! n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. What training might that be?

Can you field strip a 1911 like the other self-proclaimed "expert" here?

[SteveM]

45. Uh, I think he's made up his mind -- musn't interfere. nt

[Dogtown]

47. I can clean a gun.

That doesn't make me an expert at anything other than cleaning a gun.


I *could* claim to be a Navy Seal, but that would be a lie. Thing is, if I mentioned my credentials in depth, you'd be absolutely correct to question them. Anyone can claim anything on the internet.

What special training have you excelled at? Seriously, your final post in this exchange should be crowing of your own expertise, so I'd know whether I should take you seriously.

:eyes:


How about sticking to the topic rather than attacking me? Feel free to rebut my tactical advice if you have better to offer. I realize that it wouldn't be as much fun as picking a fight, but then again, I suspect you don't really have anything of value to add to the discussion.

Like the contentious poster who began this sub-thread, I believe I'm finished with you. I'd rather discuss this with my four-five whilst field-stripping it. It's just as smart as you, and much less antagonistic.

[SteveM]

34. Concerning "hobbies"...

"It's seriously nuts to wrap your whole life around extremely rare possibilities, but if you're enjoying your hobby, go for it. &, it just might save someone's life someday."

For most any citizen, home invasion is a rare possibility. So is fire or gas explosion.

Perhaps you consider preparation for these eventualities a "hobby," but my home owner's insurance policy indicates it is an expensive one. BTW, you seem to concede there is a possibility of positive outcome for this hobby: "...it just might save someone's life someday."

[Dogtown]

49. False equivalency.

Fires are not rapacious mobs. They occur a bit more regularly.

Have you priced "Home Invasion by Pillaging Hordes" insurance lately?


Of course I feel that my hobby might have benefits other than the fun of plinking cans. What's your point? (Rhetorical question, I don't expect your response to be any clearer than the post I'm responding to.)

[SteveM]

52. Perhaps so, but in either case reasonable precautions are made...

I in no way meant the two phenomena to be equivalent, but each would behoove some kind of preparation.

Personally, if a mob came banging at my door I'd scream for them to stop, grab a phone in one hand and dial 9-1-1 (repeatedly giving my address), and grab my arm in the other. There are many good suggestions for remedying break-ins, and just as many which can be trumped by upping the ante to home invasion, or riot. And adding caveats like age, slowness, no place to run, etc. But try we must.

If you wish, take a look downstream at my points regarding "race riots," perhaps a better description than "home invasion."

[geckosfeet]

8. unrecd cause the subject line is scare mongering bullshit

Run around pissing of gang members at your own risk. He tried to help out but for all he knew he was helping out someone who had just assaulted someone else. Doesn't mean armed home invasions are the wave of the future.

Thank god this guy and his family came out of it ok. Hopefully he will not be the target of future revenge attacks.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. Hard to ignore the racial overtones in this, particularly the epithets

Would this be considered a hate crime if the races were reversed?

" 'We got you, you white mother-------!' "

The events the next day are even more disturbing...

Police arrested Bergson Morin, 21, of Rosehill Street near Wyoming Avenue, Feltonville, as the man with the gun. They arrested Enrique Delgado, 32, of Rockland and C streets, Feltonville, as the man who hit LaVelle with the pipe. And they arrested a 17-year-old juvenile as the one who punched LaVelle in the face, giving him a black eye.

LaVelle said that the next day the mother of the juvenile came back with some other people, banging on his door, screaming. LaVelle, who was at a charity sports event, was called back to the house by one of his sons.

When he got home, LaVelle said, the mother yelled at him, " 'You white mother------, you got my kid locked up! You got my son locked up because he's black, you're white!' " The mother claimed that her son had been "a witness," not an attacker. To that, LaVelle said if that were true, it would come out in court.

Had LaVelle been armed or the cops less timely, this could well have been a real blood bath.

[krispos42]

11. "Another home-invasion robbery reported in Fairfield"

Another home-invasion robbery reported in Fairfield

Kirk Lang, Staff Writer
Updated 12:15 a.m., Tuesday, September 27, 2011

FAIRFIELD -- A home invasion on Lenox Road shortly before midnight Saturday is the second forced entry and robbery at an occupied home in town in less than a week.

Three men -- one indicating that he had a gun -- burst into the home after ringing the doorbell and demanded money from the resident and three guests.

Four days earlier, a group of three or four masked men broke into the home of an elderly Park Avenue couple and stole jewelry and cash.

However, police said Monday they do not believe the incidents are related because of different racial characteristics attributed to the intruders in the two cases. The men in Saturday's incident also were not wearing masks.

<more>

http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Another-home-invasion-robbery-reported-in-2189275.php

Elderly couple injured during Fairfield home invasion, say suspect fired gun

Staff reports
Updated 02:06 p.m., Wednesday, September 21, 2011

FAIRFIELD -- A group of gun-wielding men dressed entirely in black and Halloween masks covering their faces broke into a home on northern Park Avenue late Tuesday night, injuring the elderly couple who lives there, police said.

One of the victims told police that one of the assailants may have fired a shot while running from the house after jewelry and a small amount of cash were stolen.

Police were called to the home about 10:40 p.m. Tuesday after receiving a report of a home invasion from the residents, said Sgt. Suzanne Lussier, a police spokeswoman.

The men, possibly three or four, had already fled on foot when officers arrived on the scene and have not been found, Lussier said.

<more>

http://www.ctpost.com/policereports/article/Elderly-couple-injured-during-Fairfield-home-2181264.php

Hot times for an affluent New York suburb.


Fairfield had a drive-by shooting a week or so ago, too.

Man Charged in Fairfield Drive-by Shooting

by Greg Canuel 09/12/11

FAIRFIELD, Conn. – A Bridgeport man was arrested for his role in a drive-by shooting Saturday, police said. Elvis Santiago, 26, of Hancock Avenue was charged with shooting at a Barry Scott Drive home early Saturday morning. No one was injured in the shooting, police said.

Neighbors called police to report hearing gunshots at about 3:30 a.m. Saturday, but at the time officers found nothing suspicious in the area. The Barry Scott Drive resident called later that morning to report that the back window had been smashed on his car, which was parked in the driveway. When police arrived, they discovered a bullet hole in the back bumper of the vehicle, along with holes in the side of the house and spent bullets in one of the home’s bedrooms.

The Fairfield resident told police that he recently had an argument with Santiago, and he suspected him in the crime. Detectives took Santiago into police headquarters for questioning, where he confessed to shooting the home, according to Detective Steve Rilling.

<more>

http://www.thedailyfairfield.com/news/man-charged-fairfield-drive-shooting

[AtheistCrusader]

14. That'll come to a screeching halt if they show up at my house.

[guardian]

16. Time to upgrade

[ileus]

17. If so a lot of AR's and AK's are going to be sold to homeowners.

[Hoyt]

19. Great excuse for gunners here to add another to their cache and strap another on when

they go out.

[ileus]

20. You of course meant to say.....great reason for

for cc or oc....go with a higher capacity sidearm, a bug is still optional.
For home use higher capacity and larger caliber...

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ileus]

22. Safety First

as I always say...

[GreenStormCloud]

23. He got lucky. If it happened to me I wouldn't be so lucky.

Since I am a senior citizen with a mild disability I wouldn't be able to fight a mob without a proper tools, meaning a proper gun. First one through the door after it is kicked in gets to be the example for the rest. Shotgun would be best for such a situation.

[Hoyt]

24. I think I'd wait until I were in real danger of being hurt. I think you'd be fine waiting another

second. But, if you do that -- you might not get to shoot someone.

This was a different situation, and in this case like Levelle, the police were there and the supposed mob ran off. But at least you could say, "I got one even if unnecessarily." Folks who know exactly what they are going to do if such and such happens, could just as easily shoot someone on the street before they assess the total situation.

[X_Digger]

25. Mob busting in your door isn't enough for you? What, they coming to return your fondue pot?

*snort*

[GreenStormCloud]

26. The police got there AFTER he was being beaten.

He was able to gain the upper hand after the attack. He appears to be in his 40s and is physically fit. I would not be able to do that. I am a senior with a disability, so I would have to have a tool. Amazing that you can't see a difference between a fit man in his 40s and a somewhat disabled man in his 60s.

Door being kicked in establishes a clear and present danger. I don't have to wait until I am being beaten on the head with a pipe. Although you are free to do that if you want to.

[oneshooter]

30. Of course he would stand his ground with two machetes and his best Errol Flynn moves.

[Hoyt]

32. Levelle handled it without a friggin gun -- something you guys couldn't even consider.

[gravity556]

33. Nope. I wouldn't consider handling an angry mob without a few tools.

Pepper spray, verbal warnings not to come any closer and that I am armed, cell phone on 911, and then if they pushed past the threshold knowing that I am armed, an AR15 and enough loaded mags to make a barricade of dead violent assholes.

[SteveM]

38. Considered, rejected. I'm too old, fat and slow. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. Dude, you're harshing his mellow with, like, reality.

Please remember to do so whenever you have the opportunity to...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

50. Pardon me...

- It's not enough to be part of a mob.
- It's not enough to have kicked in the front door.
- It's not enough to have drawn a pistol.
- It's not enough to being raising the pistol.

Oh I get it! You're waiting for the "bang".

This is the gun board. "...be fine waiting another second..."???
I'll be sure and let everyone who has incorporated the use of a stopwatch into their self-defense plans know to wait another second.

:wow:

[gravity556]

31. Nope. I have plenty of guns.

And here in Phoenix, drug smuggling and illegal alien depot of the southwest, there have been home invasions by groups wearing kevlar, kicking in doors, robbing people and even kidnapping them. Fortunately, M855 is a convenient cure for soft body armor.

[ileus]

41. another great reason to buy an AK pistol.

[SteveM]

37. This event has the characteristics of a race riot, not home invasion...

Race riots are usually characterized by members of one race "invading" the neighborhood or quarter of another race, most often after some event perceived as derogatory toward the "invading" race. In other words, an insult, a single attack, a violation of often racially-constructed custom is followed by the offended racial members invading and attacking anyone of the offending race, or his/her property. Using this definition, the last true race riot in the U.S. may have been in Jacksonville, Florida in 1960. There have been since that date numerous "civil insurrections" wherein members of a race have rioted, but mainly these have occurred in that race's own community, even if the spark for such insurrection is racial in nature, and even if an interloping member of another race is attacked. Heretofore, virtually all "race riots" have been perpetrated by whites on blacks; hence the term "ghetto;" hence the relationship to "pogroms" against Jews.

Of course, home invasion is included in these riots, but is far broader than such invasions in terms of intent, motivation and numbers involved. I hope this is not a trend.