Woman shoots naked intruder armed with bow and arrow.

[Atypical Liberal]

http://www.pnj.com/article/20111011/NEWS01/111011002/1006/news01

I'm sure we will be hearing from people who will say he was naked and thus harmless and the lady should not have shot him.

Castle Doctrine for the win.

[NBachers]

1. I'm sure we won't be hearing from people who will say he was naked and thus blap blap blap etc.

[htuttle]

2. A naked man with a bow and arrow trying to rob her?

Did Cupid go rogue, or something?

[SteveM]

22. This "cupid" didn't have a broad head. nt

[Pyrzqxgl]

3. It didn't say it was a man, it said it was an intruder

could have been a chimpanzee or maybe cupid.

[GKirk]

8. They must have updated the story...

...it indicates it was a 24 year old male.

[d_r]

4. I wouldn't say harmless

I'd say mental health. I once held a gun on a psychotic young man that had broken in to my house - in hindsight obviously schizophrenic - and I am thankful I got of it without killing him. A 24-year-old wondering through a neighbor's house with a bow and arrow who takes off his clothes outside when she goes out to get her gun was probably schizophrenic. Yeah, he could have hurt her or her kid, and honestly she had to make a decision that she felt was going to protect herself and her child. And, yeah, if she could get him outside, like she did, she probably didn't need to kill him. I'm glad it wasn't me in her situation to have to figure that out. But I see this as another story about why we need better mental health services.

[iverglas]

14. "she probably didn't need to kill him"

I think you win a prize for understatement.

Police said Nussbaumer removed a handgun from the truck, turned around, faced Harris, who was standing a few feet from her, and shot him as he walked toward her, police said.

I'm pretty willing to call this cold-blooded murder, at this point.

As Nussbaumer went out the front door, Harris followed and removed his clothes, police said.

And she had no opportunity to get back in the house and lock the door while he was doing that ...


A post here remarks that he must have known she was a cop. Well, if so, then she must have known something about him.

The Police Department's investigation into the shooting is continuing.

I will be interested in the outcome.


edit -- her home is in the "4200 block of Lyn Ora Drive", according to reports. There is a Nussbaumer household at 4206 Lyn Ora Drive, according to the white pages.

Harris lived at 4207 Lyn Ora Drive, according to the white pages.

Could she seriously not have known him or anything about him?

[TheWraith]

20. So an armed and obviously crazy intruder comes into her home...

And pursues her out to her vehicle while stripping naked.

Right, I'm sure he was completely harmless! She just wanted to murder the poor man! That's why she... um... lured him into her home. :eyes:

Your ongoing efforts to decry anyone who engages in self defense as bloodthirsty cannibal murderers is gone past funny into just sad.

[iverglas]

32. who said he was completely harmless?

Not me. Why don't you go yammer at someone who did?

[krispos42]

51. You're saying he wasn't harmful enough.

Yes?

[iverglas]

64. I'm saying what I said, thank you

What I said was not "he was completely harmless!"

What I said was not "he wasn't harmful enough".

Note that the two are unconnected in any event.

Someone who is harmless is someone who is not going to commit harm. I didn't say that Harris was not going to commit harm.

Someone who "isn't harmful enough" is someone who is harmful. Harris had in fact committed no harm.

There was some reason to believe Harris might commit harm if not stopped.

Stopping someone from committing harm does not always, or even all that often, call for killing them.

Frankly, I don't think there was much reason to believe that he would commit harm if not stopped, given that he was too obviously mentally ill and his behaviour was far more bizarre than it was threatening.

For fuck's sake, if she could get her gun from her truck, she could have got into the truck and locked the doors and leaned on the horn and screamed, or just leaned on the horn and screamed. Was she the only person home on her block??

(Some may recall that this is exactly what I did in the first instance myself, my problem being that I was at the bottom of an old quarry in a farming area, and nobody heard. When I was assaulted on the street in front of my home some years later, it's what I did again -- yell a lot and throw bottles at the assailant's feet to smash them, distract him and make a lot of noise. It worked that time.)

Harris had apparently formed an idea to get money. I find it genuinely hard to believe that if she had not handed him her purse and escorted him to the door, he would not have left, or that she would have been unable to assess the situation as calling for precisely that action. She had every opportunity while he was in the house to say "if I give you money, will you leave?" and pick up her purse. Doing that would not have delayed her exit from the house with him in any way. I find it very hard to believe that she did not immediately form the intent to shoot him, as her course of action was very deliberate: get out of the house to the truck to get her gun, turn around and shoot him.

I'm also having a hard time with this business about the kid not recognizing Harris. They lived across the street from each other. That's just weird.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. How barbaric! Automatically assuming the worst about a naked burglar armed with a bow and arrow

Obviously, she should have discerned his state of mind before shooting him. Or perhaps offered him a nice cup of Easy Now...

Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Union Scribe]

54. Now I'm worrying about my own safety

If you can get shot just innocently breaking into a house, armed and nude, then who among us is safe from these vigilantes??

[Starboard Tack]

77. How do you conclude he was a burglar?

The son told his mother there was a man waiting to talk to her at the bottom of the stairs, where he waited and happened to be holding a bow and arrow. There is no indication as to how he entered the home. Maybe the kid invited the neighbor in. She does not appear to have been a victim, based on available facts. He waited at the bottom of the stairs. She asked what he wanted and he asked for some money. No indication of how much or what for. Maybe she owed him. Maybe it was foe bus fare to the local archery contest. It's so easy to jump to conclusions and buy into keywords. That's why tabloids sell in supermarkets.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. "It's so easy to jump to conclusions and buy into keywords." Ahem:

I agree, it certainly is easy to jump to conclusions, isn't it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x468323#468743

"So it doesn't change the fact that it was murder. Period."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x468323#468819

"She told him to follow her off her property, which is what he was doing when she MURDERED him. No Castle Doctrine applies."

[Starboard Tack]

80. Sorry, but your point is what?

My conclusions are not prompted by keywords, but facts. Stay tuned.

[friendly_iconoclast]

85. Granted, the dead guy may *not* have been an actual burglar

He might simply have walked in an unlocked door at his neighbors' house with a bow and arrow because the little people that live in his toaster oven told him to.

But then, there's that pesky bow and arrow. And the naked thing. And the fact that you have provided no evidence save for the
article quoted in the OP. Could it be your dislike of handguns has colored your perception of the event?

[Starboard Tack]

87. Maybe the kid invited the neighbor in.

Maybe the kid showed the neighbor his bow and arrow. Maybe the neighbor thought she was inviting him for a swim in her pool. Did you see the pool? And the driveway, which could hold a dozen vehicles, yet she parked on the street. Maybe her Police Cruiser was still parked in the driveway (check Google Earth).
Point is, she was in the shower when informed that he was waiting downstairs to talk to her. Presumably she exited shower and dressed before seeing him downstairs, at which point she noticed he was holding (not pointing or threatening with) a bow and arrow. No mention in any report of any kind of threat. Only inference is by the fact he was unknown to her 9 year old and was holding a bow and arrow. He asked for money. No demand. We don't know why he asked, because he's dead. Maybe she owed him. He undressed after leaving the house. Who knows why. He's dead.
On the surface, at least, there do not appear to have been any threats made, or offenses committed by Harris.
Nussbaumer is a trained police officer who broke all the rules, including a possible "Stand your ground" defense.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

101. And maybe....

...if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass when they walked.

We can play the "what if" and "maybe" game all day long and you can keep coming up with possible (albeit irrational) scenarios, but it doesn't change anything.

Based on the facts we have, there are few rational and logical conclusions, and none of them involve the behavior of the dead guy being what anyone would consider normal.

[Starboard Tack]

104. I'm a much better detective than you.

Tell me anything rational about this story. Do we just shoot guys who are not normal, even when they are naked in the street and doing what they're told to do? Did you see how huge the driveway is?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

106. Something rational?

Sure. Woman felt threatened and she rationally and logically ended the threat. She shot center mass. Intruder got dead.

That is perfectly rational.


And yes - someone naked, carrying a bow, and in my home uninvited when my kid is around is getting shot at the slightest provocation.

No - i don't give a rat's ass HOW large the driveway is. Being an armchair quarterback is fun and all, but at the moment when someone is in fear for their life or the life of their child, I defer to the perception of the victim.

As I said repeatedly, based upon the information in the story, the woman did nothing wrong from a moral, ethical or legal standpoint.

[Starboard Tack]

108. You sound so angry. Take a few deep breaths now.

Put the gun down. Relax. Everything is going to be just fine. A nice cup of tea should do the trick. I'm gonna have one right now. Mmm! You see clearer now, don't you? If not, repeat the above until the symptoms go away.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

109. Not angry at all.

Don't know where you got that from. The fact that I don't give into you does not mean I'm angry - it just means I believe in, and have facts to support, my position.

[Starboard Tack]

110. You have no more facts than I do. Your imagination is stunted by prejudice, however.

That's why I'm the better detective. Facts aren't things to believe in. That's called religion. Facts are the opposite. They are things we know. By definition, we believe things we don't know.
"I believe in, and have facts to support, my position." Don't you see the contradiction. Sorry, you fail. Go back to square one, do not collect $200.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

112. Odd....

You accuse me of having an imagination stunted by prejudice, yet every post you have made does nothing but offer facts not in evidence as arguments for why it is not as it seems - and you've gone so far as to accuse the victim of murder.

Now, if you need that sentence clarified for you let me break it down a little simpler.

I believe in my position. I have facts which support my position.

This does not mean I take my position on faith. It means the facts in front of me lead me to a conclusion which is very probable. As neither you nor I were there, we have to rely upon what we are able to find out.

I never claimed to be a detective by the way, and never questioned your ability in the matter. I do see though that you have, from the beginning, taken the position that this is nothing less than murder and you insist upon manufacturing possibility after possibility to support your original assumption.

[Starboard Tack]

113. I have called it a murder based on facts known to us.

The requirements for murder appear to exist. I could be wrong, because only very few facts are available at this time. Journalists write stories, based on facts, but designed to sell newspapers. So, when they use headlines containing words like "home invader", "armed", "robber", "Intruder on cocaine, acting like 'Hulk' before shooting", I take it all with a pinch of salt. I try to parse what the"victim" shooter said and ascertain what may have gone down.
Let me be clear, I have abundant sympathy for her. She has to live with this whether she is charged or not. She knows it could have been handled better and with a less tragic outcome. The latest tidbit released says that the young man's mother said he was acting strangely, maybe on drugs, acting like the "hulk" and she had called 911 before the shooting to alert on his behavior. Ten minutes after her call, he was dead.
Now, I ask the questions: Did he know his mother called the police? Did he know that a police officer lived across the street? (Probably, as she was in the habit of parking a cruiser in her driveway.) What prompted him to disrobe? Drug effect or the desire to show he was harmless (no concealed weapons). Harris told the EMTs he was high on cocaine.
And the autopsy is set for today.

[friendly_iconoclast]

114. In what way do you differ from Nancy Grace? You have based all your conclusions on media reports.

That's not detective work, it's rabble-rousing. And libel, BTW.

[Starboard Tack]

119. Sorry, but I have no idea who Nancy Grace is.

The discussion here is all based on media reports. It's just a conversation, not a trial. Everyone is probably wrong, including me. My comments are based solely on my parsing of the media reports and are intended to counter the comments of the cheering mob who, without any objective analysis, scream "bravo, another punk rapist, robber dies at the hands of desperate mother".
Trying to find some balance here.

[Euromutt]

126. Well, you certainly illustrate one thing clearly

Namely why democracies under the rule of law need independent judiciaries, rather than relying on the police and prosecution to make the determination whether someone's guilty of a criminal offense.

[Starboard Tack]

129. Thank you. I try to illustrate everything as clearly as possible.

[SteveM]

25. You call it "murder," I call it justifiable homicide, saving 2 people...

You will note that the true victim went outside to get -- ahem, ready for this? -- da punk out of the house (where the crime victim's child was still located). The crim kept on coming with archery equipment while butt-naked (sounds like he had a little somethin' else on his mind, no?) and she fired.

If the story describes what actually happened, the will be no-billed -- if it gets that far.

"Murder." It's always about da thug, isn't it?

[iverglas]

34. quite the special spectacles you have there

The crim kept on coming with archery equipment while butt-naked

Can you quote the part that says that?

What it does say was that he was a few feet away from her and walking toward her when she turned and fired. Odd way to try to shoot off an arrow at somebody, that.

(sounds like he had a little somethin' else on his mind, no?)

Oh, yes indeed. To some people, I suppose. Or so I suppose some people would claim.

Yes, someone intent on committing a sexual assault will very commonly agree to follow the intended victim out of her house into public view and then take off all his clothing. Yes, men who sexually assault women acquaintances do commonly prefer to do it in public view while wearing no clothing, after taking the time, while the intended victim is on the loose, to remove it all.

Good god, you people will grasp at anything with this RAPE! RAPE! RAPE! nonsense you think will serve that agenda of yours, won't you?

He allowed her to walk unimpeded out of the house. Before going any further now, ask google maps to show you 4206 Lyn Ora Drive, Pensacola, on satellite view. In fact, it will show you a picture of the hosue. It will also show you 4207. They are directly across the street from each other. Do we want to keep pretending that she did not know this individual or anything about him?

If the story describes what actually happened, the will be no-billed -- if it gets that far.

If that happens, she will have got away with murder.

"Murder." It's always about da thug, isn't it?

No, we all know it's always about how anybody who shoots anybody who has so much looked at them sideways has done no wrong. Ever.

Let me know when you find a thug in this scenario, will ya?

[ileus]

37. We know the neighbor across the street well, he comes over with a bow

and gets naked while my wife is home, he's going to be eating a dirt sandwich. Just because you know the neighbor doesn't mean there isn't a threat.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Ok, I detest the 'da thug' thing.

So I'll grant some hyperbole there, but come on. "so much looked at them sideways"? I can kill a 600lb elk with a bow and arrow. A human is a trivial thing to kill with such a weapon, so yes, deadly weapon present. And the dead guy appears to have actually exhibited behavior that would warrant alarm for one's safety, in any reasonable person.

If she wasn't a police officer, your point about locking the door, etc, might have credibility, but she was a cop. Cops will, even off duty, interdict a dangerous person. At least, they will in the US.

Off Duty Canadian police don't carry weapons home, do they? Possible culture difference here, in your evaluation?

[SteveM]

99. Specious, aren't we? da thug is dead. nt

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

57. Little to no threat?

Been bow hunting lately?

[Starboard Tack]

62. I must've missed the part that said he still had the bow after disrobing

There is no mention of anyone seeing a bow outside the house. This whole thing stinks. Let's keep an eye on it.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. Fair enough.

The article is pretty light on clear timeline and facts.

[beevul]

115. And I was thinking the rest of us missed the part where he put it down. N/T

[AtheistCrusader]

60. Please drop the inane 'da thug' thing.

This guy was pretty clearly some sort of mental derangement. Likely dangerous, but not a thug by any definition of the word. It's a silly caricature.

[rl6214]

28. You've got all the answers, right?

"she probably didn't need to kill him"
Posted by iverglas
I think you win a prize for understatement.

Right, just shoot to injure him. Every firearms training teaches you to shoot to stop the threat. A bow and arrow is a threat. This isn't Bonanza, you don't shoot to hit him in the hand or the arm, you shoot for center mass so you don't miss.



Police said Nussbaumer removed a handgun from the truck, turned around, faced Harris, who was standing a few feet from her, and shot him as he walked toward her, police said.

I'm pretty willing to call this cold-blooded murder, at this point.

You would be willing to but what basis makes this cold blooded murder? Motive, planning, actions? I would call a man with a weapon "who was standing a few feet from her" and walking towards her a pretty big threat.


As Nussbaumer went out the front door, Harris followed and removed his clothes, police said.

And she had no opportunity to get back in the house and lock the door while he was doing that ...


A post here remarks that he must have known she was a cop. Well, if so, then she must have known something about him.

Yup, maybe that he was a sexual predator?


The Police Department's investigation into the shooting is continuing.


I will be interested in the outcome.


edit -- her home is in the "4200 block of Lyn Ora Drive", according to reports. There is a Nussbaumer household at 4206 Lyn Ora Drive, according to the white pages.

Harris lived at 4207 Lyn Ora Drive, according to the white pages.

Could she seriously not have known him or anything about him?

[Atypical Liberal]

30. deleted

[iverglas]

35. oh, it's all about shooting with you, isn't it?

"she probably didn't need to kill him"
Posted by iverglas
I think you win a prize for understatement.

Right, just shoot to injure him.

Wrong.

[gravity556]

36. Really?

I'm pretty willing to call this cold-blooded murder, at this point.

Wow, you really hate anyone who defends themself, don't you? As to the bow and arrow, I am fairly certain that humans have killed humans with bows and pointy sticks and rocks for far longer than we've had firearms. Only an idiot would consider a bow and arrow to be anything less than a deadly weapon-in fact, a good bow and the right arrow would go through a ballistic vest like a t-shirt.

Who knows why the loon suddenly decided to strip outside. She was protecting herself and her daughter. I love how you presume she could have made it back inside and locked the door. Because risking further agitating of a mentally ill individual is a splendid plan. Besides, I'll bet he was much easier to outrun while he was on the ground with a gunshot wound.

[iverglas]

39. man, the agenda is blinding, isn't it?

She was protecting herself and her daughter.

What daughter was that?

Only an idiot would consider a bow and arrow to be anything less than a deadly weapon-in fact, ...

Only ... well, you fill in the blank ... would keep insisting that the individual was still holding the bow and arrow, let alone had an arrow strung and aimed, at that point in the incident.

I love how you presume she could have made it back inside and locked the door. Because risking further agitating of a mentally ill individual is a splendid plan.

Don't even odd people with bows and arrows take off their pants one leg at a time?

[rl6214]

40. So it was a son

"She was protecting herself and her daughter.

What daughter was that?"

and I'm sure you knew that but you would rather fake ignorance.

"Only an idiot would consider a bow and arrow to be anything less than a deadly weapon-in fact, ...

Only ... well, you fill in the blank ... would keep insisting that the individual was still holding the bow and arrow, let alone had an arrow strung and aimed, at that point in the incident."

"I love how you presume she could have made it back inside and locked the door. Because risking further agitating of a mentally ill individual is a splendid plan.

Don't even odd people with bows and arrows take off their pants one leg at a time?"

Well if they WERE still holding onto the bow and arrow they would probably just drop their pants and step out of them


And only...well, you fill in the blank...would insist that the individual was NOT still holding the bow and arrow, regardless of whether an arrow was strung and aimed or not

[iverglas]

43. snork

Well if they WERE still holding onto the bow and arrow they would probably just drop their pants and step out of them

I guess the pants just magically unzip/untie themselves. Or maybe they were rigged to drop off with some fancy hip swivelling.

The shirt, now, hard to hold an arrow strung to a bow, let alone aim/fire it, while extricating one's self from either a button-up or an over-the-head shirt, I'd say.

I'm sorry, but the image of this guy calmly and collectedly dropping his pants and stepping out of them, all in one smooth movement while holding a strung bow, so fast that the woman could not have got around him and back into her house ... nah, fantasy island there.

And only...well, you fill in the blank...would insist that the individual was NOT still holding the bow and arrow, regardless of whether an arrow was strung and aimed or not

Yeah, find somebody who insisted that and go yammer at them.

Me, I just find it exceedingly difficult even to imagine a scenario in which it was NECESSARY for this woman to kill this man.

[AtheistCrusader]

59. Ah, now I see where you are going with this.

She may have training, being a police officer, not to grapple with such an assailant. Which means, not entering grappling range. If he was blocking the door, no, she couldn't just dart around him, even if he put the bow down and fumbled with his pants.

[GreenStormCloud]

52. Pants can be removed both legs at the same time.

You just unbuckle, unsnap, unzip and drop them. Only takes a few seconds.

[AtheistCrusader]

58. Odd question.

I take off my pants both legs at once. You take off your pants one leg at a time? Really? That WOULD be odd.

[Union Scribe]

53. ...aaaaaand there it is. You just turned into a caricature. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

55. Even an off-duty officer may attempt to apprehend.

Nothing wrong with that.

So, it comes down to a defensive shooting by an officer. Depends on what he was doing with the bow and arrow. Nocked, and aimed, yeah, a cop is going to shoot you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. sounds like suicide by cop, to me.

He was her neighbor. He HAD to know she was a cop.

I also notice that the shooting happened outside, at the truck, not in the house - what kind of cop keeps a handgun in the truck, but does not have one in the house? Isn't that asking to have your handgun stolen?

It also says, as you pointed out, he was naked when she shot him. He was not naked when he entered her house.

It also does not say whether he was still holding the weapon when he approached her at the truck.

My take - he was suicidal, so he entered the cop's house armed, expecting to be shot. When she didn't shoot him then, he changed tactics to something more threatening, sexual assault, at which point he got his wish and she shot him.

Castle Doctrine does not apply if the intruder has left the house.

[one-eyed fat man]

12. Who knows?

what kind of cop keeps a handgun in the truck, but does not have one in the house?

Maybe a single mom cop? One who decided out on the truck was better than in the house where her kid could find it?

No doubt you'd find fault with her, no matter where she kept it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. No, I'd have no problem with her having it her house in a gun safe.

That's where it belongs.

[melm00se]

15. I don't have a gun safe in the house

but I do have a micro gun vault secured in my car and that is where i choose to keep my pistol.

[SteveM]

26. No sirree. A gunsafe when your weapon is "in service" does little good.

My revolver is kept in a locked box, and hidden away when not at home.

My revolver is kept within reach at bedside when I am home asleep.

If one does not believe in self-defense using deadly force, then I can see locking a gun in a safe where it does no good. But I am not of that mind.

I do agree that "castle doctrine" may not be in play here; depends on the text of the law. But self-defense DOES come into play.

[rl6214]

29. "Castle Doctrine does not apply if the intruder has left the house."

Not true, depends on the state and the law. In Texas the castle doctrine extends out onto your property.

[Ian David]

6. He could have been a robot from the future. n/t

[Glassunion]

10. Was the victim's name Sarah?

[chrisa]

18. TERMINATE! TERMINATE! Whirrrrr!

[GKirk]

7. It seems to me ...

...that the lady homeowner just jumped to the conclusion that her neighbor was up to no good.
All that she had to go on was that he entered her house without permission with a bow and arrow, demanded money and then got naked in front of her (and her child I presume).:sarcasm:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. Did the intruder happen to be a cherub?

[Glassunion]

11. .

[GreenStormCloud]

16. He was naked and she shot him in LOWER abdomen.

That's not center of mass. I wonder where she was aiming?

[Atypical Liberal]

17. Maybe it WAS the center of mass?

:)

[GKirk]

23. Oh looky a penis reference...

...in a thread about guns!

Actually it's quite ok, I mean he was naked for gawd's sake. :)

[ileus]

19. he was naked and thus harmless and the lady should not have shot him

I hate to see him go away, but such is life when you're stupid....er I meant such is death.

[GKirk]

21. Can I assume sarcasm?

Or did you miss the part about the invader having a bow and arrow?

[SteveM]

27. No, he didn't. I'll speak for him, however:

:+ :silly: :beer: ;-) ;-)

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. What makes you think he was still holding them?

Ever try to undress while holding a bow and arrow?

[rl6214]

41. Very easily could have undressed while her back was to him

walking to the car to retrieve her gun.

[Ready4Change]

48. Is it some how inhumanly possible to pick them back up?

Just because you're naked it doesn't mean you can't pick that bow and arrow back up. The article doesn't say he, when naked, was or wasn't armed. Claiming either is an assumption.

Also, nothing in this article says this man was clinically, mentally ill. He certainly did some things, as reported in the story, that may seem crazy. But I can game scenarios where his actions would make more sense. I'm sure the police can too. I suspect that's why this report is vague in some areas. Be interesting of there are more developments.

[ileus]

38. He should have pawned his bow for a Hi-point before trying to rob or rape someone.

I suppose a bow didn't command enough respect, and getting naked didn't help either....he's taking a well deserved dirtnap now.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Ready4Change]

50. Provide a non-threatening reason for his getting naked.

I know! Skinny dipping! He was going invite her to go skinny dipping. Oh, and hunting while skinny dipping. (Explaining the bow and arrow.) Oh, and he wanted to go get a McGriddle first (explains the demand for money.) After all, who doesn't go skinny dipping/bow hunting, with a complete stranger, without taking along a McGriddle or two.

I should call the police with this. They will be so GLAD I have solved this conundrum.

[ileus]

65. You win: POTT award

Post of the Thread award....congrats.

[iverglas]

63. did a post of mine get mislaid?

He should have pawned his bow for a Hi-point before trying to rob or rape someone.

I'm sure I meant to say: RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!

That essential element of the agenda: the pretense of concern for women's well-being and the conjuring up of the spectre of sexual violence against women at every opportunity, loony or otherwise.

It is nothing short of loony to think that a woman was at risk of sexual violence. To claim or insinuate that she was calls for wilful disregard of the facts.

The woman's truck was parked in the street (see news reports). She was standing by her truck.

The man had removed all his clothing in full public view, and was walking toward a woman standing by a vehicle parked in the street in a very pleasant-looking residential neighbourhood (see google maps and photographs of 4206 and 4207 Lyn Ora Drive, directly across the street from each other).

Would-be sexual assailants really do not generally remove all their clothing in public and initiate a sexual assault in that state in full public view on a residential street. I would go so far as to say not ever.

There is a single rational explanation for this man's behaviour: he was experiencing some kind of break from reality. He was 24 years old. There is one very obvious possible explanation for his behaviour:


http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm

Individuals with schizophrenia do not commonly engage in unprovoked acts of violence. Their behaviour may be frightening to others, and undoubtedly in this instance Harris's behaviour was very unsettling. I can't believe it would have been possible not to grasp that he was suffering from a mental disturbance (especially to someone, like Nussbaumer, with years of police experience and, one would have to assume, training in recognizing and dealing with individuals with a mental illness). I can't believe that she could not, at the very least, have shouted at her son to lock the door as she left and then dealt with the situation in some way other than by killing a human being.

The investigation is ongoing.

Police and prosecution may well decide not to lay charges, if they decide that Nussbaumer's act was justified/excused in law -- or that they are prohibited from prosecuting by Florida's "castle law", or if they think there would be no hope of conviction if they did proceed.

This has nothing, nothing whatsoever, to do with whether what she did was justified in fact as being necessary to avert serious injury or death. Whether she reasonably believed it was ... well, that would be the question, and the benefit of the doubt may be required in court, but we're not in court.

[Starboard Tack]

45. " Castle Doctrine for the win."

WTF is that supposed to mean? Do you think this is a game of football? A man, probably a sick man, was murdered and you try to defend it. Do you have any moral foundation at all?

[rl6214]

49. Killed, not murdered

unless of course you have seen something that isn't being reported like

a motive

proof that this was a planned event

you know, the sort of things that the charge of murder would require.

[Starboard Tack]

61. Murder is premeditated homicide with malice aforethought.

She led the guy outside to her truck where she kept the murder weapon. She did this on the pretext of giving him money. The guy had just stripped naked in the street and was following her, as per her instructions. She stepped off her property to retrieve her weapon. She took the gun, turned and shot the man dead. When she shot him, as far as we know, he was following her instructions. We don't know a lot of things like, why was this neighbor asking her for money? How well did they know each other? Was he compos mentis? Were they lovers, friends, enemies or just neighbors? We would all love to know the answers to those questions. They might reveal motive or not. Motive isn't necessary, let alone proving it.
So it doesn't change the fact that it was murder. Period.

[Atypical Liberal]

69. Or put another way...

She led the guy outside to her truck where she kept the murder weapon. She did this on the pretext of giving him money.

Or you could say that she lured the armed intruder out of her home and away from her 9-year-old son alone inside their home.

The guy had just stripped naked...

Nothing alarming about that, eh?

...in the street and was following her, as per her instructions. She stepped off her property to retrieve her weapon. She took the gun, turned and shot the man dead. When she shot him, as far as we know, he was following her instructions. We don't know a lot of things like, why was this neighbor asking her for money? How well did they know each other? Was he compos mentis? Were they lovers, friends, enemies or just neighbors? We would all love to know the answers to those questions. They might reveal motive or not. Motive isn't necessary, let alone proving it.
So it doesn't change the fact that it was murder. Period.

If the facts are as presented, the guy got what he deserved. Period.

[Starboard Tack]

70. By your reasoning we can assume that you advocate public execution of the mentally ill

Nice one ATYPICAL! You're earning yourself quite a reputation as the last guy anyone would want as a neighbor.

[Atypical Liberal]

71. I'm all right with neighbors who don't walk around nude in my house at night with weapons.

By your reasoning we can assume that you advocate public execution of the mentally ill

I do not support capital punishment. I do not believe in giving the state the power to kill its citizens.

Nice one ATYPICAL! You're earning yourself quite a reputation as the last guy anyone would want as a neighbor.

As long as you aren't a neighbor that comes into my house at night with a bow and arrow and start taking your clothes off, you'll be fine.

[friendly_iconoclast]

72. How very intolerant. It's a privilege to have naked, armed, and reality-challenged neighbors.

And as has already been explained, they probably won't try to hurt you or your loved ones. Probably.

[Starboard Tack]

75. "If the facts are as presented, the guy got what he deserved. Period."

You don't support capital punishment, just private executions without due process. Wow!

Taking your clothes off is a capital offense in your house? Do you ever stop to think about situations, or do you always shoot from the hip?
Don't you think there is anything unusual about this story? Or is it just your run-of-the-mill shoot your local robber/rapist story to you?
The reports, so far, say he was a NEIGHBOR, from directly across the street. He ASKED for money, not demanded. He was holding a BOW AND ARROW, not pointing or threatening with it. He disrobed OUTSIDE her house (no bow mentioned outside the house). She told him to follow her off her property, which is what he was doing when she MURDERED him. No Castle Doctrine applies.

[Atypical Liberal]

76. I trust the individual, not the state.

You don't support capital punishment, just private executions without due process. Wow!

I trust the individual, with overview from law enforcement, to take correct action to insure his own safety and that of his family.

I do not trust the state with the power to kill its citizenry.

Taking your clothes off is a capital offense in your house?

No, and you are being deliberately obtuse.

This is not just someone taking their clothes off in my house.

This is an armed intruder taking his clothes off in my house while following me while thinking I am about to allow him to rob me.

Funny how the little details like that change the context a bit, isn't it?

Don't you think there is anything unusual about this story? Or is it just your run-of-the-mill shoot your local robber/rapist story to you?

Just going by the facts as currently presented. If the facts change, then I will of course change my opinion.

The reports, so far, say he was a NEIGHBOR, from directly across the street.

I don't care if he's Santa Clause.

He ASKED for money, not demanded. He was holding a BOW AND ARROW, not pointing or threatening with it.

Semantics. Armed robbery is armed robbery whether your assailant is just holding a weapon or pointing it at you. The obvious insinuation would be that the assailant has the weapon for a reason. And that reason is probably not to come play cowboys and indians with you.

He disrobed OUTSIDE her house (no bow mentioned outside the house).

While following her thinking he was about to hit the payday for his armed robbery. Taking his clothes off as he went.

She told him to follow her off her property, which is what he was doing when she MURDERED him. No Castle Doctrine applies.

I guess we'll see how it all plays out.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

86. Oh good lord...

"You don't support capital punishment, just private executions without due process. Wow!"

That was not a private execution. It was self defense. Private individuals are not under any moral legal or ethical obligation to ensure the state provides due process while they are defending themselves from a crime.

"Taking your clothes off is a capital offense in your house? "

If I didn't invite you in, while not a capital offense, is certainly grounds to shoot you. In fact, being fully clothed in my home when I have not invited you in (or you otherwise have legitimate legal reason to be there such as a warrant) is a good way to get shot.

"Do you ever stop to think about situations, or do you always shoot from the hip?"

In house, uninvited, naked, with obvious ill intent. What else need be considered?

"Don't you think there is anything unusual about this story?"

All KINDS of shit, but at the end of the day, the criminal is dead. Good story as far as I'm concerned.

"Or is it just your run-of-the-mill shoot your local robber/rapist story to you?"

No - its the run-of-the-mill shoot your local naked man in your living room story...

"The reports, so far, say he was a NEIGHBOR, from directly across the street. "

So?

"He ASKED for money, not demanded."

Kinda like how officer friendly ASKS for your license and registration when he pulls you over? It isn't really a request and the presence of a weapon indicates the guy wasn't politely asking to borrow $20 till payday.

I wasn't there so I will take the word of the person who was there rather than assume they are lying.

"He was holding a BOW AND ARROW"

You realize that's a deadly weapon right? If you don't, I'm sure you can find someone to give you a personal demonstration.

"No Castle Doctrine applies."

I don't know the specifics in that state. It may, or may not. Either way, it is a legitimate self defense shooting. Florida also has a "Stand your ground" law, and regardless, it occurred on her property.

[GreenStormCloud]

97. He DEMANDED money, not meekly asked for some.

http://www.pnj.com/article/20111014/NEWS01/110140330/Police-beat-Few-details-shooting-naked-man

Auxiliary Florida Highway Patrol Trooper Tabbatha Nussbaumer, 36, shot Sean Harris, 24, on Monday night after Harris came to her home with a bow and arrow, demanded money and took off his clothes.

Amazing how some people here always try to minimize the crime the criminals was committing.

I would be that if he had been a legal CCW holder and was "holding" a gun you would claim that he was using it as a threat.

Her truck was parked on the street, curbside. While she may not own the curb it doesn't really count as off the property in the sense you are trying to use it.

She didn't order him to follow her, she lured him outside to get him away from her son.

[Starboard Tack]

98. This is the first piece that uses the word "demanded"

There have been no quotes from Nussbaumer to that effect. There has been nothing on the bow and arrow except he was holding one. It could have been her kid's bow and arrow for all we know. There was no mention of a threat. All the other 25 reports say he "asked" for money.
She shot and killed an unarmed naked guy in the street. Sorry, but that is MURDER. She may well beat it, but it's still murder.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

100. So what?

Its also the first follow on piece. As far as the bow and arrow, there is no reason to logically conclude it was a kid's toy. Had it been, I'm positive that would have been stated.

It isn't murder except to you, but we all know you hate the idea of self defense with a firearm.

[Starboard Tack]

103. I guess you don't understand much about journalism if you think this is a follow up piece.

It's a keep them reading piece, with no follow-up at all, except that the FDLE continues to investigate. The word "demanded" was undoubtedly a journalist/editor slip. Not a quote from Nussbaumer.

"It isn't murder except to you, but we all know you hate the idea of self defense with a firearm."
Why do feel the need to make shit up? Do you think that strengthens your position somewhat?
Read Iverglas' comments on this murder. Better articulated than mine.
I have no problem with using a firearm for self defense and have said so many times. I am against the toting of handguns, because I believe that practice is more harmful than beneficial to society as a whole. People should be able to defend themselves by any means available to them and with reasonable and appropriate force.

So, now we all know you make shit up. Hopefully, you were making shit up about all those people you would shoot if they came in your house uninvited. Hope your sprinklers work well.

[beevul]

117. Based upon what evidence do you make the claim that...

Based upon what evidence do you make the claim that "The word "demanded" was undoubtedly a journalist/editor slip."

Did you think nobody would bother to ask?

[Starboard Tack]

118. Based on the evidence that only one out of close to 30 reports uses that word.

There is no attribution to Nussbaumer having said he "demanded" money. In fact, all the reports quote her as saying he "asked" for money.
I didn't think anyone would ask because I assumed everyone could read for themselves. Apparently, I was wrong.

[beevul]

120. Now how about those "close to thirty" links.

" In fact, all the reports quote her as saying he "asked" for money."

Obviously they ALL don't.

"Based on the evidence that only one out of close to 30 reports uses that word."

Its your claim. Back it up.

How about posting those "close to thirty" links.


Or is "close to thirty" kind of like "a few weeks ago" as holder used the phrase when asked when he learned about fast and furious?

[Starboard Tack]

121. Read them yourself. I assume you know how to use a browser.

From the latest report, supposedly part of the affidavit submitted to the judge in order to obtain a search warrant of Harris's home.
"When Nussbaumer came out of the shower, Harris was at the bottom of the stairs holding the bow and arrow, police said. Nussbaumer told police that Harris asked her for money.

In an effort to get Harris out of the house, Nussbaumer told him there was money in her truck. As Nussbaumer went out the front door, Harris followed and stripped, police said."
http://www.pnj.com/article/20111015/NEWS01/110150314/Affidavit-Naked-man-had-used-cocaine-before-he-fatally-shot?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

[beevul]

123. I can read just fine.

However...

YOU are the one that made the claim that "close to thirty links" didn't use the word "demanded".

Its your claim. Back it up. Otherwise its just another unsupported assertion.


Surely your deductive powers, over the course of reading here at DU, have led you to the fact that when one makes a claim, the onus is on them to support it. :rofl:

Or does that only apply to those you argue with?

[Starboard Tack]

127. Wrong, the onus is on you to disprove it.

It really is irrelevant, because the only paper covering it so far is the Pensacola News Journal. All the rest are copying them. Point is, I only found "demanded money" in one piece and it wasn't a quote from Nussbaumer. All quotes from her said "he asked for money". I doubt she didn't recognize her neighbor. They had both lived across the street from each other for some time. Cops are trained to be observant. The whole thing stinks.

[beevul]

131. I see. Now I understand your problem.

You think the onus is on others to disprove your claims, when no proof of those claims has been presented by you in the first place.


Your deductive powers have failed you in this.

[Starboard Tack]

133. The onus is on you if you CHALLENGE my claim. Go ahead, prove me wrong.

[beevul]

136. Asking you for proof of a claim, isn't the same a challenging it.

But then you knew that, didn't you.

[Starboard Tack]

138. I posted the link to the 30 links. I can't read them for you too. Ask your Mommy

Do you know how to do anything for yourself?

[beevul]

139. Uh, did someone say you hadn't after you did?

The dispute was over who the onus was on, when someone makes a claim, I believe, not about the original claim, anymore.

You'll have to learn to keep up with these things if you ever want to get to be any good at debate.

Note the word used there was "debate".

Thats what everyone else in this thread is doing, and you aren't. On the off chance, should you know the meaning of the word and how it applies, I apologize for being redundant.

[friendly_iconoclast]

132. So (theoretically) if I were to claim you use your home as a transshipment point for contraband...

...the onus would be on you to disprove it?

[Starboard Tack]

134. WTF are you smoking?

You equate a statement I made about 30 published press reports to accusing me of smuggling contraband?!?
I made a statement that about something that is public knowledge. Check it out Google - Nussbaumer shootings. You want me to read them to you too?

Pensacola News Journal - 2 days ago
As Nussbaumer went out the front door, Harris followed and stripped, police said. Police said Nussbaumer removed a gun from the truck and shot Harris in the ...
29 related articles
http://news.google.com/news/story?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=nussbaumer+shooting&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dlnR4RH9Mwk5TMM1H8xFv_uNsksTM&hl=en&ei=T4aaTprJPKTkiAL3qfWnDQ&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CC0QqgIwAA

Happy now?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

84. Uh - no, you cannot.

NOTHING in his reasoning indicated he was advocating for public execution of the mentally ill.

[Starboard Tack]

111. Why am I not surprised that you would support him?

Peas in a pod. Birds of a feather. You both approved of the execution of this apparently deranged, unarmed naked man in the street.
You also both approve of shooting window breakers. Oh boy. I get images of lynchings when I think about you guys.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

83. The dead guy was armed.

He was on her property. He was a threat to her and her child. She shot him. He died.

Looks like a net savings for the tax payers and justifiable homicide in self defense. I don't see anything even remotely close to murder.

[Starboard Tack]

91. He was not armed or on her property when she killed him.

I see no self defense here. There is no mention of any threat. Only that he was "holding" a bow and arrow. Not aiming, pointing, just holding. He "asked" for money, not demanded.

You, apparently, walk around armed. So, if you came to my house to sell me something, or borrow ten dollars and my kid let you in while I was in the shower, came running upstairs to tell me "there's a guy downstairs I don't recognize".
I come out of the shower and notice you at the bottom of the stairs. I also recognize you as that guy from across the street who always walks around with a gun. I notice the bulge under your jacket as you say "Hey, neighbor. I need ten bucks".
"I'll be right with you" I say as I reach for my trusty 12 gauge.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

93. Based upon the story....

You have no way to know if he was still armed when he was shot. Further, it is quite possible he fell or crawled into the street - a belly wound is not instantly fatal.

I can play the what-if game too.

[Starboard Tack]

95. Now you're being somewhat imaginative, which beats the knee jerk reaction.

Keep it up. You may be right. You see, I read a lot of mysteries and consider myself to be somewhat of a Sherlock Holmes, having been a detective in a past life. So, if your crawling thing is correct, there will probably be blood traces in the driveway, but I doubt it. Have you studied the layout? If he were a true threat, why didn't she follow protocol instead of a gut shot? I'm getting the impression that there was some kind of history between them and she decided to end it right there. The victim's house is definitely not in the same class as her house. I'm betting his parents live there and either he was visiting. Get ready for this, 'cause it's good. He's in junkie rehab visiting his folks and gets the itch. Finds his dad's old hunting bow and thinks "I'll just go over to that nice house across the street and try to sell this. Get me a fix." I could come up with a lot more possible scenarios, but then I'd be using up all my creative juices and you'd probably steal my ideas and become a rich Hollywood producer.

[friendly_iconoclast]

102. I can certainly see why you are no longer a detective n/t

[Starboard Tack]

107. Oh, but I am. I just don't do it for a living anymore.

I admit we have very little evidence to go on at this point. What we do have, though, appears to be from the shooter herself, and that is very telling. The fact that she was in the shower while the "dangerous" neighbor waited at the bottom of the stairs. Kinda rules out the whole "rape" angle. Presumably she was not naked when she went to get her gun. Time to dry and dress. No urgency. She said he asked for money. No mention of threat. She said he was holding a bow and arrow, not pointing or threatening with it. What kind of bow was it? We don't know. She suggested they go to her truck, which was parked on the street. He complied. For whatever bizarre reason, he disrobed between the house and truck. If it wasn't because she instructed him to, then I think we can assume, at this point, that he was mentally deranged. She lured him there, under a false pretense and there she shot him. Why? We don't know. Was it because he was naked and like our friend We_Have_A_Problem, she shoots naked people, or others that come to her house uninvited?

I have seen the words RAPE, ROBBER, THUG, PUNK, CRIM used to describe Harris. None of those descriptions is supported by what we know. They are nothing more than innuendo based on conjecture.

[beevul]

116. Cite please.

"He was not armed or on her property when she killed him."

Cite please.

And no, the nearest dark orifice doesnt count.

"Only that he was "holding" a bow and arrow. Not aiming, pointing, just holding."

For joy.

I'll enjoy seeing in the future, if you apply that same descriptive standard, and the same implication of intent, to someone "holding" a gun.

Bookmarked. =D

[Atypical Liberal]

66. When good people triump over bad people, most people consider this a "win".

" Castle Doctrine for the win." WTF is that supposed to mean? Do you think this is a game of football? A man, probably a sick man, was murdered and you try to defend it. Do you have any moral foundation at all?

I know there is often the dissenting opinion around here, but usually when good people triumph over bad people it is considered a "win".

An armed intruder was killed by the homeowner, who, by the way, was a police officer. Win.

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. and in your world, police officers can do no wrong.

We get it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

79. and in your world, gun owners can do nothing right.

We get it.

[Atypical Liberal]

81. What?

The news is full every day of police officers who have done wrong.

Shit, right now the front page story on DU is police officers who framed people for drug charges.

We've got the Justice department knee-deep in a scandal of arming drug cartels in Mexico.

How would you derive that "in your world, police officers can do no wrong."???

I was only pointing out that this person was a police officer since so many anti-gun folks think only the police should own guns.

[PavePusher]

82. Holy Cow....

have you ever not been paying attention here....

[Starboard Tack]

88. "An armed intruder was killed by the homeowner, who, by the way, was a police officer. Win"

Who said he was an intruder? Not the police. They said it was unclear how he entered the house. The only one to say he was armed was Nussbaumer, who said he was "holding" a bow and arrow at the bottom of the stairs. No mention of any threat. He "asked" for money. We don't know why, but I'm sure that if he had menaced her and demanded money, she would have mentioned that. She didn't. She said he asked and she offered to get some from her truck. They both left the house for the street. There is no mention of him still having a bow and arrow at that point. There is no mention of the kid being anywhere near. Presumably the child was still in the house, which is probably why she shot the guy in the gut, to avoid hitting the house, which was then behind him. Bottom line is, she screwed up, for whatever reason.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

89. If you are in a person's house....

...uninvited, you are, by definition, an intruder. End of discussion.

Sorry you do not understand this basic stuff, but that is your problem.

[Starboard Tack]

90. How do you know he was uninvited?

Neighbor knocks on door. Mom's in the shower. Kid answers door.
"Hi, I need to talk to your Mom"
"OK come in. She's in the shower. I'll let her know you're here."
"Mom, there's a guy downstairs who wants to talk to you."
"Who is it?"
"I don't know him"
"OK, I'll be out in a minute"

What basic stuff am I missing? Do your kids know all your friends and neighbors? Invitations to enter from kids don't count? Just let 'em in son and I'll shoot them if I don't like them.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

92. Yes, it COULD have happened that way

But based on the information in the story, it didnt.

You left out the part about how he was nude and armed.

Incidentally, yes, my kid knows all my friends and neighbors, and no, my kid would NEVER invite an adult she did not know into the home.

[Starboard Tack]

94. "You left out the part about how he was nude and armed."

Must have missed that part. What I read was "he was holding a bow and arrow" at the bottom of the stairs. No mention of who it belonged to (maybe the kid, who knows) and no reference to any threat. Then he took all his clothes off outside the house (no mention of still carrying a bow and arrow). So, where did you get the info on him being both nude and armed at the same time. I'm glad your kid knows all her neighbors. Apparently young master Nussbaumer didn't know the guy who lived directly across the street. So, how do you think Harris gained access to the house? I find no suggestion in any reports that he did so illegally. It was early evening. My guess is he walked across the street and knocked on the door, the kid opened it and let him in, or the door was open. Let's all stay tuned.

[GreenStormCloud]

124. So you make stuff up and use that to clear the criminal. N/T

[Cronus Protagonist]

46. Betcha there's more to this story

Maybe it will come out later. Ima wait and see.

[ileus]

68. One shot drop....wonder what caliber handgun it was.

[Glassunion]

73. .

oops

[Kennah]

96. Seems that his quiver could not contain his broadhead

[Remmah2]

105. Cupid?

Probably not.

[Starboard Tack]

122. Here is one link you toters will love. Enjoy.

Very deep, thoughtful, sensitive comments.
http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/home-invader-finds-justice/

[GreenStormCloud]

125. Armed self-defense stories always have lots of those kind of comments. N/T

[Starboard Tack]

128. Yep. Nice crowd to hang with.

[spin]

130. People on both sides of the gun ownership issue often make stupid comments ...

The last thing that I would ever want to do is to find myself in a situation where I had to use deadly force. Even if an individual is entirely justified there are often legal consequences and it's not unusual to suffer from psychological problems after the event.

I currently sleep well at night with peaceful dreams. I would prefer to continue to do so.

[Starboard Tack]

135. And you, sir, represent IMO the saner members of your persuasion

Were they all like you, I doubt we would need these conversations. Unfortunately, as you can see from reactions of some of our "brethren", something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

[spin]

137. Thanks for the comment ...

At another time and at another place I made such comments, but I was much younger.

Perhaps age does bring a little wisdom.

[Francis Marion]

140. Store the firearm in a truck?

Would be better to have the firearm properly secured in the house if its purpose is to protect the home and family when not on duty.

Mental health or drug problems may explain the behavior of the man.