Winnipeg gun store raid may be tied to AK-47s

[alp227]

A Winnipeg gun store was raided after staff learned that two replica AK-47s it had obtained without a problem turned out to be illegal, an employee told CBC News.

Moreguns Supply on Clarence Avenue was raided early Wednesday morning, with about 300 weapons and ammunition seized, according to the employee, who did not want to be named.

Winnipeg police would only confirm that a weapons-related search warrant was executed at an address in the 1400 block of Clarence Avenue.

Det.-Const. Rob Duttchen of the RCMP's National Weapons Enforcement Support Team (NWEST) said officers are in the early stages of an unsafe weapons storage investigation.

full: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2011/11/02/winnipeg-weapons-seizure.html

[mvccd1000]

1. Did I read that right?

The store purchased two BB GUNS that the Canada Border Services Agency had allowed into the country, they then recognized that these TOYS may somehow be illegal under Canadian law, so they called the authorities and turned in the offending TOYS, and the store was then raided as reward for their efforts?

Wow.

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. You did indeed read that right. From the link in the OP:

But when staff received a tip that the replicas may be illegal, they checked with RCMP to confirm that the items were not legal, the worker said...
...Moreguns staff immediately disassembled the replica guns and turned them over to the authorities two days before the raid took place, the employee said...

That's pretty messed up.

[petronius]

3. Reading between the lines a bit, it sounds as though the BB guns were not the actual issue

"Det.-Const. Rob Duttchen of the RCMP's National Weapons Enforcement Support Team (NWEST) said officers are in the early stages of an unsafe weapons storage investigation." That's just the funnier bit that the article writer keyed in on, I think.

The funniest bit to me though, is this: "brought in two BB guns that were replicas of AK-47 semi-automatic assault weapons." As awesomely accurate (aside for the meaningless "assault weapon" bit) as that phrase would be in referring to a semi-auto AK variant, the BB guns would probably best be described as replicas of AK-47 assault rifles... :rofl:

[Euromutt]

7. I wouldn't be too sure; "unsafe storage" seems to be the "catch-all" charge in Canada

That is, if you do something with a firearm in Canada that the cops think they ought to be able to run you in for, but there doesn't appear to be any statute you've broken by doing whatever it was you were doing, they charge you with "unsafe storage." The statute is extremely vague as to what storage methods satisfy legal requirements, nor are there any clear guidelines issued by a regulatory agency, so the cops can always claim they busted you (and confiscated all your firearms and ammunition pending trial) in good faith, and with luck, the charges may actually even stick.

[iverglas]

14. hey there, can ya gives us some examples of that?

I'm sure you have numerous in your card file.

[iverglas]

26. here's a good one for you

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/charges-laid-armed-standoff.html

A 62-year-old man is facing several charges stemming from an armed standoff in Spryfield on Wednesday.

It started just before 2 p.m. when police were called to a house on Old Sambro Road and discovered a man, who had access to a firearm, was inside the house.

The Halifax man walked out of the house just after 6 p.m. and was arrested without incident.

Police got a warrant, searched the house, and found a long-barrelled gun and marijuana plants.

The man is facing charges of uttering threats, unsafe storage of a firearm, breach of probation, and cultivating marijuana.

Snork. Not many statutes for what he was doing, all right.

Just for info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spryfield,_Nova_Scotia

As in most sub-urban areas in Canada these days, there are drug and gang problems in Spryfield. Marijuana and cocaine (especially in the form of crack cocaine) are the two most commonly used and sold drugs in the area, and disputes over gang "territories" sometimes generate violence. In particular, the Melvin and Marriot family-related gangs have been engaged since the mid 1990s in a struggle for dominance in the drug trade (cocaine being the most contentious matter) in Spryfield, and a string of shootings and fire-bombings have resulted in several deaths and injuries - not all of them in Spryfield itself, however. The latest fatality in this "turf war" has been Terry Marriott, who was shot in the Harrietsfield area in February, 2009. For a summary of this unfortunate feud, see Melvins vs Marriotts: A tale of two crime families.

Yeesh, all this in staid old Halifax.

[rl6214]

4. Rec for the idiocy of it all

:rofl: at the RCMP

[AtheistCrusader]

5. hahaha oh man, there HAS to be more behind this story

Fuckin' bb guns

[oneshooter]

8. From the article....

"But when staff received a tip that the replicas may be illegal, they checked with RCMP to confirm that the items were not legal, the worker said.

That is because the replicas are made with parts that come from real AK-47s, meaning they can be reconfigured into real firearms."

So they are afraid that they can be made into the real thing.

No comment on this as I am afraid I might laugh myself to death!


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[one-eyed fat man]

6. Airsoft?

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/02/28/airsoft-gun-seizure-apparently-toys-can-be-real-guns/

Is this similar to the story where Customs and ATF seized a bunch of Airsoft M4's saying they were machine guns?

They must see EBR's in their dreams!

[Remmah2]

9. ATF raids Toys-R-Us. (I can see tomorrows headlines.)

The ATF will not be outdone.

[oneshooter]

11. Too late, already done. n/t

[burf]

10. K & R

To quote some guys on ESPN...........C'mon Man!

[SteveM]

12. Canadian politics trying to be like U.S. politics?...

Especially in terms of lack of imagination: Nothing like copying prohibitionist gun politics as a way to stay in power!:rofl: :rofl: :silly: :crazy:

[iverglas]

13. oh dear, I forgot to get here first with the truth

I heard this little tale in proceedings in the House of Commons the other night and neglected to make note of it to tell the assembled masses here.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/19/bb-gun-rcmp.html

The Mounties launched raids and seizures last week on a number of gun stores in B.C., Ontario, and Quebec. Investigators believe the toys — assembled with authentic parts from the Chinese Type-56 version of the AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle — can be transformed into weapons with a simple switch of the gun's barrel and bolt.

The weapons were allowed into the country as BB guns after being inspected and approved by the Canada Border Services Agency.



Police would also not comment on whether they've seized any of the replica BB guns turned into prohibited AK-47-style weapons. However, two gun sellers visited by the RCMP said police told them they are alarmed because they found one of the replica guns at the scene of another investigation, raising the spectre criminals have figured out how to get cheap AK-47s through BB gun retailers.

... North Sylva and Messina <dealers> said they were shocked and mystified to learn that a BB gun approved by CBSA for import into Canada is now being seized as a potential prohibited weapon. "Very very scary," said Messina. "I mean I've got children too, and you know what — that's the last thing we want to see."

... An investigation by CBC News revealed Kaye has been selling the replica assault rifle for about a year for between $250 and $299, promoting it as: "Excellent, with an all metal and wood construction. This gun is more like a real AK-47 than it's like a BB gun."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/25/bb-gun-rcmp.html

A CBC News investigation determined the CBSA never inspected the shipment crates containing the replicas, and didn't flag the weapons as "prohibited" after relying only on the import declaration forms submitted by Toronto-based arms distributor North Sylva that the guns were simply toys.

The bulletin asks businesses and BB gun owners to surrender or destroy their AK-47 replicas because they are prohibited firearms manufactured with authentic frames and receivers from the Chinese Type-56 version of the AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20111024-77-eng.htm

BB Gun Determined to be Prohibited Firearm
Special Business Bulletin No. 77
October 24, 2011

Snapshot

The RCMP has recently become aware that certain BB guns, available in Canada, are in fact prohibited firearms.

Background

The Model FX18HB c.4.5. air rifle (full stock) and FX18IIHB c.4.5. air rifle (folding stock) were inspected and, based on criteria set out in the Criminal Code, determined to be prohibited firearms because they were manufactured with authentic frames and receivers from the Chinese Type-56 version of the AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle.

Implications

This is a public safety concern because these firearms are sold by businesses in Canada, and individuals and businesses may be in possession of unregistered prohibited firearms.

Businesses in possession of these firearms must either register them, provided they are licensed to do so, or surrender or dispose of them to either the local police or the Chief Firearms Officer. Individuals must either surrender or dispose of them.

I do trust it is all a little clearer in your minds now.

Googling those model numbers, I'm not noticing them for sale in the US. Anybody?

Anybody

[ileus]

15. none for sale in the US....I'd like to have one for my son if they did import them.

[iverglas]

16. any idea why not, then?

One would think it was an excellent market.

[ileus]

18. Same reason our ATF seized air-soft guns

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/ATF-seizes-30-toy-guns-infuriating-local-business/vUVs2QUCAUuZWeRrqgIQaA.cspx

[iverglas]

20. ah, so it is not some bizarre Canadian fetish after all

The Martins said they buy their stock from Taiwan because the merchandise is less expensive. But the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives seized a shipment of 30 in October. That shipment is worth around $12,000 and the ATF is promising to destroy the entire shipment.

Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw said the toys can be easily retro-fitted into dangerous weapons.

"With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun," Crenshaw said.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. No we mocked the ATF for the same thing.

You ONLY have to replace every load-bearing (pressure as well as shock) part in the weapon to make it work at all.

Meaning, just about the whole damn thing. 'easily converted' my ass. No more 'easy' than getting the plans out of a book, going to a middle school metal shop and fabricating the whole damn commie tractor gun out of stock steel yourself.

[iverglas]

29. what would this one be made of?

http://www.koinlocal6.com/Photo.aspx?content_id=d96c45bd-0205-4b01-9959-e46baa021068&i=1

just idly curious. The ones being sold in Canada were "all metal and wood construction", with an AK-47 frame and receiver. Why would police say they had determined they "can be transformed into weapons with a simple switch of the gun's barrel and bolt" if that is not the case?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receiver_%28firearms%29

"In strictly legal terms, in the United States the receiver is the actual firearm itself,<2> and as such it is the controlled part (without which operation is impossible)."

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/faq/im-ex-eng.htm

"All imports are controlled by the Canada Border Services Agency. As a general rule, you may import a frame/receiver of a restricted or non-restricted firearm if you have a Possession and Acquisition Licence that is valid for that class of firearm. You need to register the frame/receiver before you bring it into Canada."


In strictly legal terms, the "toy" guns were restricted firearms in Canada, regardless of how easily or not easily they could be converted to anything else, I would say. Importing them as toys just isn't how it's done.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. A simple switch of the barrel/bolt assembly is most of the firearm.

I would argue that the lower is considered 'the firearm' in the US, because for MOST firearms, that's the component that can most easily be regulated to be in compliance with the requirements that the weapon not be convertible to a select-fire weapon with a replacement of readily available parts.

I would like to see the 'bb guns' for myself. The news reports have enough errors that I consider some of the statements made to be suspect. Could these be real AK-47 variant recievers? Maybe. It's a stamped piece of sheet metal. If someone was really trying to get these in-country, they could just make them in their garage with 50$ worth of tools and a few pieces of sheet metal from home depot, or whatever your equivalent in Canada. (People are not 'printing money' doing so, because this is literally the least valuable component of the gun.)

Out of curiousity, can you purchase a replacement barrel and all the innards without any questions asked? In the US, indeed, you could. I suspect that is not so in Canada.

Stamping out a piece of sheet metal by hand is one thing, producing a barrel and bolt that won't energetically dissassemble in your hands is another.

Edit: I would like to mention, I did say there has to be more to this story, upthread, and it seems maybe there is. If the toy manufacturer decided to use a couple real components (probably because they are stupid cheap, you wouldn't believe) then yes, they are afoul of the letter of the law, and have attracted the appropriate level of attention. However, I will continue to mock silliness like police officals talking about 'simple' replacement of barrel/bolt, etc. It's just nonsense for this particular type of firearm. For an AR platform, less nonsense, but the purpose is still questionable. You're talking about a 700$ firearm. Of which the lower only comprises about 250. Importing parts of a toy doesn't make a whole lot of sense, even if they can be re-used in a real firearm. To what purpose? (AR's are notoriously fickle, you WANT professional fit and finish, which you won't get doing this)

[gejohnston]

24. thank you for the calm

and civil clarification. I have not seen those here. Maybe ATF and US customs got the memo first. Honest question, is there a disconnect between Border Services and RCMP?

[iverglas]

25. disconnect between Border Services and RCMP

Yeah, I think there is. In this case, though, it does sound more like CBSA simply read the declaration and passed the shipment through. Apparently this wasn't the first time, given the reference to them having been sold for some time. Interesting advertising blurb that was, too.

CBSA is not a police agency, although I recall that officers are "peace officers" under the Criminal Code and so have powers of arrest and so on. Big hoo hah a couple of years ago about them getting guns, which the union was demanding. They did, but I think the training may be questionable.

CBSA and its predecessor Customs & Excise have rather a reputation for questionable decisions, for instance in cases involving lesbian erotica and such. They've been known to exclude things that are not illegal under the Criminal Code. And then of course the Immigration side has been known to exclude people who are not inadmissible under anything but the current government's right-wing interpretation of what a terrorist sympathizer sort of thing is.

(I had fun many years ago when I was one of the organizers of the first in the world counter-summit to what was then the G7 summit. I was on overnight duty at the HQ the night before it started, with a particular view to watching out for trouble with a batch of USers crossing the border. They couldn't do it at Buffalo in rush hour, no, they had to do it at 2 a.m. Nothing like livening up a border officer's night. So first they weren't going to let them in, then they were going to let them in but not the trunk full of literature they had, then they were going to let it in but charge duty on it ... after lengthy chats between me and the officer, and me dropping some names of my immigration officer buds in their locale, they just let the whole kit and kaboodle of them come on in. The officer went back to getting paid for being bored, I think I had to wait up for the crew to arrive so I could billet them somewhere ...)

On the replica gun thing, apart from the question of conversion in this particular case, I posted a link to the CBC's show about the whole issue, and particularly the test they put cops to, of having to distinguish between replica and real in simulated situations. Lemme find it ...

Directions here:

http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=443706&mesg_id=444108

There's also a link in one of my posts there to the Pellet Gun Bill debacle, still my all-time favourite DU thread.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. O. Canada.

O_o

[iverglas]

19. I'm betting

you read one sentence of the OP and didn't bother with anything else, like the facts I posted ...

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. I accept your apology

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=476029&mesg_id=476425

please note time stamps

[slackmaster]

27. Heh

Canada.

[iverglas]

30. oh look, it's another one

Let's pretend.

[rl6214]

31. Terrible isn't it. Kinda like someone that regularly posts

USAmerica or USofAmerica

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

34. Blah, blah, blah...

Did you say something?

A whole lot of noise and nothing actually said except a personal attack.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

36. well here we go again

And my hugest apologies to whoever it is who thinks I should not be allowed to answer posts on this board, but I'm just going to do it. And if somebody somewhere doesn't like it, they can tell me why.

Kinda like someone that regularly posts
USAmerica or USofAmerica

Actually, I post neither. I use the adjective/noun "USAmerican" to refer to, for example, the policies of the USA or a citizen of the USA. Try googling it. I did make it up for myself one time, but I wasn't original. You might also google the terms "étatsunien(ne)" and "estadounidense". The point, if you're missing it, is that there are millions of people who live in the Americas who are as American as anyone who lives in the US.

Now the question is: what does this have to do with anything? I commented on a post consisting of one word: "Canada". Is there some reason I would object to the word "Canada" as you seem to object to the (non-word) "USAmerica"?

Not that I can think of. My point was that there is an entire thread here, including several posts by myself in which the actual facts of this case are explained, the opening post not having given a full and accurate account of those facts.

A one-word reply very clearly implying that the sort of silly nonsense that the opening post suggested had occurred was what was to be expected from Canada reflected a strange, to me, willingness to believe something plainly silly because it was allegedly committed by the authorities of a particular country, without so much as investigating the information available right in this thread. (Including the fact that the items in question would be regarded as firearms, not toys, in the US).

Now, maybe there is another explanation for that one-word post. Maybe the poster wasn't thinking or saying anything at all. Maybe he just saw a thread, looked at the opening post, and thought "Canada", so he clicked on the reply link and typed the word. Who knows?

I am replying to YOU and explaining that your post is just completely pointless, and trying to help you understand what my reply to the post in question was about. I hope I have been of service.

This post has been carefully reviewed for violations of any rules, spoken or unspoken, and passed scrutiny.


two typos in one word ...