Wisconsin nixes required training for conceal carry

[TheMightyFavog]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20111107/GPG0101/111107070/Wisconsin-concealed-carry-4-hour-training-rule-suspended

MADISON — Applicants to carry concealed weapons in Wisconsin will no longer have to complete four hours of training, after a Republican-controlled legislative committee voted Monday to do away with the requirement that had been assailed by the National Rifle Association as being too strict.

The rule mandating the successful completion of at least four hours of training was put in place by Republican Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen's Department of Justice in advance of the law taking effect last week.

(snip)

But Republicans who control the Joint Committee for Review of Administrative Rules ignored Van Hollen's concerns and voted to suspend the rule effective immediately. The committee also removed a requirement that applicants have a signed statement from the instructor verifying that the course had been successfully completed.

"There's no reason why we have to micromanage how people obtain their concealed carry permit," said Sen. Glenn Grothman, R-West Bend. Other states with no minimum training requirements haven't had any problems and "there's going to be no problem in the state of Wisconsin either," Grothman said.

[spanone]

1. i'm waiting for them to de-regulate pharmaceutical co's & the airlines

[MadMaddie]

4. I believe deregulation will destroy companies because

is this consumer environment if no one buys their products...ummmm

[MadMaddie]

2. 4 hrs...

the NRA is out of control. Some numnut is going to get a cop killed or an innocent person killed....only a matter of time.

[TheWraith]

12. Many states don't have any such training requirement.

Vermont doesn't even require you to have a permit, and is the only state that never has. They seem to avoid having any bloodbaths on account of it.

[madrchsod]

17. vermont is not wisconsin...well maybe northern wisconsin

[We_Have_A_Problem]

26. How much more time you think is needed?

After all, VT has not required training or licensing for over 300 years now....

[MadMaddie]

37. I think 4 hrs is enough to get folks aquainted to what the law is

and what their responsibilities are. It's a good thing for the community. I support people owning weapons...I think they need to understand the rules.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

40. The rules are out there for someone to learn

The people who would need the class are the ones least likely to benefit from it. In other words, if they're too stupid to learn before carrying a gun, sending them to class wont change anything.

[iverglas]

41. time to abolish

tests for getting a driver's licence.

If you're so much of a moron that you don't learn before driving a car ... well we may as well just let you drive one anyway.

Oh, I forgot. No tests for carting a gun around, right? Well that settles that.

[SteveM]

30. Remember: The gun control "movement" made the modern NRA.

When gun-controllers persist with meaningless efforts at restrictions/bans, you can expect the "other side" to eventually breach the city gates; there they will find there is little or no opposition.

Please note the violent crime rates in this country have been on a big, steady decline since the mid-1990s, during which time the number of firearms in civilian hands has gone from 190,000,000 to well over 300,000,000. Note also that the latest Gallup survey shows a significant increase in the number of Democrats who now have guns.

If you can find other trends to support "a cop killed or an innocent person killed" which falls from without the trends in gun crimes & accidents, please provide.

BTW, liberal Vermont (a state with low "gun crime" rates) doesn't even have a law governing lawful firearms owners from carrying concealed; in other words, Arizona, Wisc., etc. are late to the game.

[Starboard Tack]

43. As the pendulum swings..... Assigning cause is like trying to explain gravity.

Nothing wrong with Democrats having guns. I doubt there are many more Democrat abolitionists than Republican abolitionists. Abolitionists are as extreme as compulsive toters.
Interesting that you equate Vermont with Arizona. Kinda like Iceland and Guatemala.

[SteveM]

44. Who "equated?'' I merely pointed to similar laws, or lack thereof. nt

[Skittles]

3. OMG FOUR HOURS OF TRAINING

IT'S SO OVER THE TOP :rofl:

[SteveM]

31. FOUR MORE HOURS THAN VERMONT.

[ManiacJoe]

5. Is there something strange about folks from Wisconsin

that should require more restrictions on them than folks elsewhere?

[ThomWV]

6. I have a Concealed Carry Permit, but this has to be the stupidest statement ever made

"There's no reason why we have to micromanage how people obtain their concealed carry permit," said Sen. Glenn Grothman, R-West Bend.

Thathas to be the hands down stupidest thing I've ever seen attributed to a politician anywhere any time.

[lutefisk]

10. Not surprising, considering that our Wisconsin Republican legislators are pretty stupid.

They are bought and paid for, mean, and stupid. And they rule my state.

:hi:

[Morning Dew]

7. They should apply this to driver training as well

What could possibly go wrong?

[lutefisk]

11. Don't give the automobile industry lobbyists ideas.

The Wisconsin Republicans will do anything for a few bucks.

[one-eyed fat man]

33. Is there some reason

you think the people of Wisconsin are more stupid, more bloodthirsty, more likely to FINALLY fulfill the prediction that there will be "....shootouts over parking spots" "....like Tombstone and Dodge City!!" "....there will be blood in the streets!!!" than in any of the other 48 states that permit some form of concealed carry?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. What coud go wrong.

[cleanhippie]

14. Pretty much the same that goes wrong in States that also have no training requirement.

Which is nothing. Nothing at all. Very little goes wrong with CC permit holders.


But I think you knew that already.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Usually don't like to engage you

But you think that training is unimportant?

Carry on...

[cleanhippie]

25. I am unsure how you get that idea from my response to your baseless assertion.

You made a baseless claim that is contrary to available evidence, and I called you on it.



You then follow up with a non-sequitur, that does not even remotely represent my response to you.


And YOU don't like to engage ME? :rofl:


Carry on yourself...









Or we could discuss your baseless claim that is contrary to the available evidence, if you would like.

[hack89]

34. There is no evidence that lack of training poses a problem

there are plenty of states with no training requirements - there is no evidence that this poses a threat to the public.

[Euromutt]

21. I dunno, why don't you tell us?

Why don't you go out on a limb and commit to making some testable predictions? Then we'll see how well they hold up.

[SteveM]

32. If the objective of civilian concealed-carry was to engage in combat...

as any LEO might expect, then training would be of benefit. But the average person carrying concealed is worried about self-defense only, not law enforcement nor encountering on a regular basis criminals. I don't think extensive training with the use of firearms would be very applicable for those carrying for self-defense. What I think should be carried out is education in the laws governing concealed-carry, and enough range time to demonstrate safe use of a firearm. These are state matters, of course, and will vary from state-to-state.

I support some training not because it would lead somehow to safer encounters with criminals (I see nothing which supports this proposition), but because it would lead concealed-carry folks more conscious of how they must govern themselves.

[elfin]

9. Heinous

But I noticed today that the Milwaukee Public Museum has hastily made notices at the entrances that "no weapons (knives or guns) are permitted on premises", with X's over graphics of the weapons.

A partially owned Milwaukee County facility, but now directed by a business oriented, but it appears fairly moderate, Rethug.

I think and hope that the culture of leading a public educational institution is rubbing off on him.

If I had not seen that today, I would have embarked upon a scorched earth campaign.

There are way too many high school kids with peer problems that they want to "settle" outside of school at such places on field trips.

Not to mention extreme fundies who are agitated at the word "evolution" in our exhibits and tours.

At least, they have been warned. Hope an entrance sign helps. But now, as a volunteer, I am even more vigilant.

Hate it.

[rl6214]

13. what is to keep out a criminal carrying a gun?

A sign?

[elfin]

19. You are right - BUT

it may be a deterrent of sorts. Criminals may have always been there, but the policy could deter the crazies with other agendas than quietly exercising the 2nd amendment.

I do not want to depend on ANYONE armed to protect the kids if someone acts impulsively because they have a gun and a beef, no matter what it is.

I do not want ANYONE to carry any lethal weapon an educational institution.

I carry a cell phone with the security on rapid dial since this movement in our state.

It used to be that guns were for hunting season - not any more. Now I feel "hunting season" has expanded to random target humans for no real reason in public places.

[rl6214]

22. I don't think cell phones helped anyone at Virginia Tech or

Columbine or any of the other school shootings.

[friendly_iconoclast]

23. The belief in word magic is surprisingly persistent, as you've seen. n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

35. Cell phones did one thing

They provided footage of the campus cops wandering around without purpose or a sense of urgency. You can listen to the shooting in the back ground, unhurried, methodical, punctuated by pauses where he reloaded. Cho had almost a half hour to wander the building expending 174 rounds, reloading 17 times using "ban legal" 10 round magazines before the REAL police showed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkrDYR-pd7I

This is about the last two minutes shot by a student with his cell phone. Note the stalwart campus cops milling about with no apparent sense of direction or urgency waiting for the "real" police and occasionally yelling at students to "Get away." Remember, this is after Cho came back on campus after mailing his manifesto to NBC news after having killed two people in a dorm room hours earlier. Dressed in "de rigueur" black trenchcoat and backpack, like he came from central casting, Cho walks past the campus constabulary unnoticed.

Listen to the shots. There are a couple spots where wind noise overpowers the audio, but close to the end you hear a blast where SWAT finally breaches the barricaded door. They rush in and almost immediately, in the face of an armed response, Cho kills himself.

Except for an 86 year old Holocaust survivor who tried to barricade a door no one took any action to thwart the shooter. I still wonder why someone did not break the "In case of emergency" glass on one of the fire axes in the hallway and try to find the opportunity to use it. Autopsy reports indicate a number of the victims simply cowered under their desks meekly waiting their turn to be shot.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

20. or he could be a

Rudy Giuliani kind of Republican that wanted to use New York's Sullivan Law as a model for the US. Of course, he changed his mind when he wanted to make the big time.
But at least he is not a RR type.

[SteveM]

36. There are other points of view...

There is no evidence to show that posting paper signs indicating a "gun/weapons-free zones" have worked except perhaps to reassure a mass-murder that there is no opposition, hence the sign is an attractant.

What kind of "scorched earth campaign" did you have in mind?

"There are way too many high school kids with peer problems that they want to "settle" outside of school at such places on field trips." You are aware that high school kids cannot legally purchase handguns? There are laws against that already.

If you have a "gun-free zone" sign posted where you live, you probably should be more vigilant, given the "extreme" who-evers who might take note before committing mayhem.

BTW, the NYT reported subsequent to the Columbine shootings:

"The other father (Klebold) prided himself on being his son's soul mate. They had just spent five days visiting the Arizona campus where the teen-ager planned to enroll in the fall, and recently discussed their shared opposition to a bill in the state legislature that would have made it easier to carry concealed weapons."

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/29/us/shattered-lives-special-report-caring-parents-no-answers-columbine-killers-pasts.html?src=pm

I rather suspect that Dylan Klebold -- the murderer -- and his father "shared opposition to a bill" for completely different reasons.

[PavePusher]

42. Why do you fear so much?

None of the actions you fear is any more legal now than it ever was, criminals are no more or less able to carry weapons for nefarious purposes, and crime rates are falling.

The sky, it does not fall.

[TheCowsCameHome]

15. This sounds like teabagger dream come true.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. As mentioned above, Vermont has never had *any* requirements whatsoever.

So your shopworn Freudianism fails the empirical evidence test..

[apocalypsehow]

28. As mentioned above, Missouri is the "show-me" state and you can get that slogan on license plates.

See there? Two can play the non sequitur game all week long, and into Sunday night.

[rl6214]

29. How old are you, 12

[digonswine]

38. It really does not seem to matter--

We've needed hunters' safety courses to hunt for some time--a class will not make dumbfucks with guns not be dumbfucks. Some people will be unsafe with guns no matter if they take a class or not. I've seen plenty of unsafe behaviors from those I KNOW have been through the class. People will sweep you with the barrel, not always act as if the gun is loaded, and be completely unaware of other hunters'(or peoples') positions in relation to themselves. Luckily, the fact that it is very unlikely to be shot by these yahoos makes hunting not too dangerous. When someone is careless--I am sure they are no longer in my party.

[Euromutt]

39. What a lot of people seem to have missed is that there IS still a training requirement

The state Attorney General said he set the four-hour requirement because, while the legislature mandated training, they didn't set any specifics as to what the training should cover. What the committee did here was not scrap the training requirement, because that's statutory law; what it did do was say "it doesn't necessarily have to be four hours."

Now, I do have to concede at this point that, in my opinion, what the committee should have done subsequently is set about establishing a curriculum covering what an applicant should be able to demonstrate he knows, because it's a bit stupid to have a training requirement without specifying what the trainee should be proficient in by the end of it. However, I do agree that simply setting a time limit is somewhat arbitrary. Some people can get this stuff in less time, some will need more time.