I can't imagine someone who isn't law enforcement carrying a gun on a daily basis

[RSillsbee]

I had a discussion w/ another DU member the other day and she said "I can't imagine someone who isn't law enforcement carrying a gun on a daily basis." I've been doing it for so long that it's common to me. I never give it much thought, I just put the gun on when I get dressed.

I'm curious who here outside of law enforcement carries daily

[Arctic Dave]

1. Not me. No reason whatsoever to carry everyday.

I carry when in the back country.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. Nor I. I think people that do, do it to feel strong, because they are scared nt

[RSillsbee]

3. I have been told I'm fairly strong as it is

and I'm not the fearful type

Care to try again?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

12. well since you know better than me how I feel

Perhaps you can tell me what I should do for a living

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. You're a nurse. nt

[RSillsbee]

51. But you know my mind better than I do

So, please enlighten me oh wise one; should I be a nurse or go do something else?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

59. You haven't told me if I'm correct or not. Go on. Are you a nurse? If not, what are you? nt

[RSillsbee]

62. I've stated several times that I'm a Nurse

what's your point?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

67. WHEN did you state that you were a nurse? After I guessed it? nt

[RSillsbee]

71. Have you lost your mind?

I started a thread in May about my dog dying and someone there commented that I had said I was Nurse prior. So, for sure 6 months ago.

I don't state my occupation in every post but it's not like I hide it either.

How is this relevant?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

85. And how am I supposed to know that? I'm not psychic, and I don't know who you are.

But you assumed I knew that. I merely guessed. Get off your horse, will ya?

And it's relevant because I thought it was extremely odd that I guessed correctly, particularly since you classify yourself as genderless.

[RSillsbee]

97. Apparently we a not communicating correctly

And for that I apologize.

I never asked you to guess what I do do for a living, I asked what you thought I should do for a living. The implication being that since, having never met me, you were able to discern that I carry a gun to feel strong and because I'm "afraid."

When you stated "You're a nurse" I didn't realize it was a guess I thought you had read it in another post.

I'm not psychic

Maybe you are.

particularly since you classify yourself as genderless.

That's kinda sexist. I'm male and male nurses are not as uncommon as you might think.

But anyway, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding here I wasn't trying to be a prick.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

122. I didn't read it in another post, which kinda scared me. Maybe it's a sign that I'm in

the wrong field (paralegal). Maybe psychic would be more like it. :)

By the way, I think male nurses are important to have, and I don't know why there aren't more. Any time there's a preponderance of one gender in a field, it's a bit disconcerting to me. Besides, every time my mom has been in hospital, she's preferred male nurses over female ones. She's an unabashed discriminator.

And I'm sorry I jumped out of my skin too. lol

[Fokker Trip]

22. No offence, but you seem a bit touchy. You did start the thread and solicit comments.

If you need to carry for a job then why not say so(or are you trying to bait people?), otherwise the conclusion that you live with some fear is reasonable IMO.

I can't imagine it myself. What scenario do you foresee that might require you to use it?

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Sarah did not respond with the answer to the question.

Poster responded with speculative bullshit in a negative tone.

[RSillsbee]

61. My problem w/ Sarah’s response

My problem w/ Sarah’s response is that it doesn’t appear to be any attempt at reasoned discussion, it’s an insult. “You carry a gun because it makes you feel strong and you’re afraid” that (IMO) is presumptuous (who are you to tell me how I feel) and insulting.
When I was in the seventh grade I got mugged. The guy beat the crap out of me and robbed me. In 1991 I was the victim of a road rage incident in Tacoma. The other driver was a meth head who decided I had cut him off (on an empty 5 lane interstate at 3 am) He tried to run me off the road , he tried to ram me and he chased me from downtown Tacoma all the way to Puyallup.
I pulled into a gas station to call the cops he followed me and as he got out of the car the attendant walked out of his booth w/ a baseball bat. The meth head took off, leaving his passenger behind. We called the cops and gave them the make, model, year and license plate of his car. They refused to follow up; they even refused to arrest the passenger.
I’m sure those two incidents shaped my world view. I know that we live in a violent society and I choose to be prepared to protect myself. I don’t see the fear there; I certainly don’t feel fear when I go out and I resent the idea that someone who doesn’t know anything about me (besides my occupation and that I engage in a behavior that she disapproves of) deciding how I feel.
Outside of a hospital I have never performed CPR in my life, not once. I still carry a barrier device w/ me everywhere I go. Is that fear?
I started carrying a gun regularly after I left the Army, Believe it or not I won the lottery again and someone tried to mug me right outside my home. I was able to deter the attack by drawing my weapon. No shots were fired, I wasn’t hurt and neither was the mugger. I want to be clear here that I was not “brandishing my weapon” I had every intention of firing but the mugger took off as I drew.
I hear people in this forum say all the time that the odds are against you ever actually needing a gun and they’re absolutely right. That said, no matter what the odds are you could be the one. I made a reasoned decision based on perceived risk to carry a gun. I made a second decision to carry everyday because I can’t predict when or even if I might win the lottery again. Please don’t assume that means I’m fearful.

[SteveM]

102. Perhaps because you "can't imagine it," you conclude the meme "living in fear..."

I think it is faulty logic to conclude that someone lives in fear because you can't "imagine" some thing or some situation.

The use of psychology as a cultural weapon under the guise of analysis and detachment strikes me as disingenuous.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. I'm also scared I might need various medical supplies at any given time.

So I carry a first aid kit, an airway, gloves, and a few key trauma items.


Yes I am scared. I fear for human life. I fear that when a life is in danger, I might lack the basic tools to back up the skills I possess, that enable me to protect and preserve human life. I fear that I might fail, and because of that failure, a person might die. A person that, under different circumstances under my control (such as what I chose to carry that day), might have lived.

In this regard, I am a very fearful person, and I am not ashamed. Belittle all you want.

I fear all sorts of things that destroy human life. From lunatic murderers, to the death penalty.

[ObamaFTW2012]

87. What are you so scared of that you wouldn't be armed?

It's just a tool, not a zombie on a leash that could turn on you and kill you. It won't do anything but weigh down your hip, unless you choose to use it.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. If you don't carry, why don't you ask someone who does, instead of speculating?

[SteveM]

103. Precisely! I wonder why the gun-control folks don't stoop to do just that.

I rather suspect they have a belief system about folks who carry guns, and it will not be interrupted, contravened nor simply argued against. And it certainly won't be threatened by merely asking the folks who carry.

[DrDan]

49. +1

[SteveM]

104. Gosh, Dan, have you ever asked those who carry if they are scared? nt

[DrDan]

113. don't believe I have to - actions speak for themselves. nt

[We_Have_A_Problem]

119. So only your interpretation of an action matters?

All hail King DrDan! Please your majesty, tell me why I do {insert random action here}


That's a rather elitist and superior opinion you seem to have of yourself, and a damned low and condescending one you have of others.

[DrDan]

125. never said that, now did I - why do you insist on making up crap

[Simo 1939_1940]

121. "Actions speak for themselves."

No, sorry, actually they don't.

Two or more people can engage in the same action for entirely different reasons. It reflects the absolute zenith of arrogance to pretend to know what lies in the heart of your fellow man. Despicable attitude, yours.

[DrDan]

124. of course they do - and louder than words

[Simo 1939_1940]

126. I'm aware that your mind is closed, "Dr." - and that

it's impossible to reason with a person who hasn't arrived at their position through reason to begin with. For the benefit of others reading, however, I thought I'd provide a couple of examples of "fearful" gun owners.

Here's a youtube vid of a guy speaking on the subject of preparedness vs. paranoia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjD27SnUmes

And here's one of those "fearful" females discussed concealed carry options:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ogGBPVk5GQk

[rl6214]

135. do you ask your patients why they have come to see you or

do you just use your telepathic powers to get that information?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

92. Do you have anything to support that belief?

If not, it is merely projection. That may be why YOU would carry one, but not everyone has the same motivation.

I don't carry every day but I do most days. Why? Simple - I live in one of the biggest cities in the nation and I frequently have to go through questionable sections of town. The days when I don't carry are days when I have to travel out of town for business (by air) or days when I basically stay at home - or know I will be in and out of too many locations which do not allow firearms (the hospital at which my wife works, my daughter's school, etc)

[SteveM]

101. We hear so much about "fear," "paranoia," and "being scared"....

Yet, those who most accuse others of these conditions seem to be the ones most plagued by them. They fear people who carry-concealed (quite a feat, you would admit), not just those who carry open (few by any standard). They fear a "society" where people are carrying guns (less than 5%?), they fear shoot-outs, the wild, wild West, people toting in buildings, at demonstrations, etc.

Each year I pay my house insurance; not out of fear, but out of prudence. If you were serious about the notion of being "scared," you would ask those of us who carry-concealed or merely support 2A rights, "are you scared?" I think you will find folks here are not scared to bear arms, and more often than not, get a good night's sleep.:-)

[tularetom]

4. Define "carry"

I can barely remember to take my wallet, keys and knife when I leave the house, the last thing I need to think about is a gun.

Sometimes I have a handgun in the glove box of my car. Does that count?

BTW, I'm not in law enforcement but my son and my son in law are ex cops.

[RSillsbee]

52. You already don't qualify

Because you only "carry" sometimes

[NightWatcher]

5. Former PI, so I used to carry for work

I don't carry now with regularity, but I've always got one in my ride.

[teddy51]

6. Most Republicans probably don't agree with you, especially the ones from red neck

states. They obviously feel that it's there God given right to carry 24/7.

[era veteran]

42. Please identify redneck states*

It is your Constitutional Right, God has nothing to do with it.

* Let's have your definition of redneck states as you dehumanize lot of Americans. A common tactic of the right wing.

[Callisto32]

45. How amazingly condescending.

[SteveM]

105. Proof positive that the right-wing has not cornered the market on that substance. nt

[TexasTowelie]

7. No response...

...from the guy that shoots coyotes while jogging?

[AzWorker]

9. Daily carrier here

And unfortunatly I've had to use my daily carry firearm to defend myself and my family.

[demosincebirth]

10. Makes 'em feel big'un tough

[Oneka]

18. Umm,, not really

but thanks for the bigoted characterization.

[demosincebirth]

74. If that makes me a bigot, in your eyes, its ok with me.

[RSillsbee]

75. Do you have any basis for your stereotype

or are you just spewing?

[Oneka]

80. I just got the memo.

Seems that i have been wrong all these years. It's OK to spew bigoted shit at any time, in any way, as long as it's directed at those filthy gun carriers.













:sarcasm:

[SteveM]

106. You're "ok" with being a bigot? I appreciate your honesty.

:eyes:

[Simo 1939_1940]

118. Don Kates refers to the bigotry we witness in this forum as

"respectable bigotry". Some "progressives" wear their hatred of guns and gun owners as a badge of honor -- feeling in some deluded way that it enhances their liberal bona fides. Same is true of course with the RW on certain issues........but I'd like to think we take a higher ground than they do. Sadly, the evidence indicates that we DO NOT.

Edited to add this link to the Kates article "Gun Control: A Realistic Assessment":

http://catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-control.html

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. I don't find it necessary. I feel safe enough without it. n/t

[Old Codger]

13. Carry....

Not worth posting in this forum just arguments usually so waste of time, nothing of any import can be discussed without getting tagged on by the whatever they are.

[ileus]

15. I may not always have my pistol on my side, but it's always somewhat handy.

I don't carry it every day at work, but it travels to and from my car with me, and walks around with me if I should make an out of vehicle detour along the way.

If I ride 20 miles on the bike she's there. Church there, Geocaching there, Thanksgiving dinner there....beside me now with my cell and a cup of water.

It's not different than carrying my wallet and cell. Wallet, Cell, Knife, Pistol it's part of being to me.

As I always say...safety first.

[Oneka]

16. I carry daily.

I have carried daily since may of 09, i don't carry while im at work, or when on trips to states that dont honor my permit.

Carrying everyday has had a positive effect on me, in a number of ways. training both before and after getting my permit,has made me realize
how completely oblivious i had been to dangerous situations, that i now have the tools to avoid, without a second thought.

I find myself to be more courtious and less confrontational with people than before i started carrying.

I am not now, nor have i ever been in law enforcement.

So far i have had nothing but good experiences with carrying, hopefully that will last throughout my lifetime. It is my hope, that i never have to use my pistol outside of training.

[Hoyt]

17. Do not carry daily, nor any day during year. Consider it deviant behavior, whether lawful or not.

[AzWorker]

25. Classic....

lulz

"Do not carry daily, nor any day during year. Consider it deviant behavior, whether lawful or not.
Posted by Hoyt"

[Simo 1939_1940]

31. self-delete - responded to wrong member

[ileus]

47. rude toter quote of the Holiday... :)

he has no idea what deviant behavior is if he considers upstanding citizens legally carrying safety devices to protect their lives and families deviant behavior.

I'm having a tough time figuring out what to carry today, my 9, 45 or 380... :)

[Hoyt]

53. You'll probably go with all three -- after all you might get attacked by a turkey today.

Plus, gives you something to talk about at family gatherings.

Have a good one anyway.

[ileus]

83. carried the 380 to dinner, then the 9 while hunting this evening.

We saw 11 deer this evening....got one of them lined up at about 60 yards but couldn't let my son take the shot because there were two deer grazing behind it. Waited and watched until dark but they never would spread out or come any closer. Hopefully tomorrow evening will pan out better for him.

We won't get to go out in the morning because the wife is heading out early for all those "deals"...LOL

[SteveM]

108. What? Are you on the prowl today?

;-)

[spin]

30. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it ...

At some times in our nation an individual might have been considered deviant it he carried a firearm on a regular basis as deviant behavior is defined as behavior that is a recognized violation of social norms.

Carrying firearms was not unusual during many periods of our history and once again it is accepted and legal behavior in many states most of which require the individual to be licensed. Interestingly enough many behaviors which were considered deviant throughout our nation's history are accepted today.

Many very religious people still consider some behaviors deviant today although times have changed and many activities that they disagree with are common and accepted today in our society.

Your dislike of people who carry regularly reminds me of those religious people who feel that being gay is deviant behavior. Oddly enough Jesus never said anything about homosexuality that was recorded in the Gospels.

[Hoyt]

54. I hope/believe that guns in public will never be considered perfectly OK by most civilized people.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. Already is widely accepted and considered OK in most states.

After all, if the public were truly against it so many states would not be shall-issue.

[Hoyt]

64. Lots of things are legal, but not considered "OK" in by most in a civilized society.

[GreenStormCloud]

76. But CC has become legal in so many states BECAUSE people demanded it.

They would not demand something that they didn't consider OK. Tough for you to be in such a minority.

[Hoyt]

77. Yea, the people who can't venture out of their house without their guns demanded it and paid for it

through NRA and similar right wing lobbying organizations.

[spin]

66. The state you live in allows concealed carry ...

If it is not accepted by "civilized people", how did it pass in your state and why is some form of concealed carry allowed in 49 states?

Are you possibly defining and limiting civilized people to those who dislike the practice of legally carrying a firearm concealed?

[Hoyt]

79. It is allowed because the 3 to 4% who can't leave home without a gun paid for it through lobbying

groups (right wing I might add0>

If people knew how the gun culture thinks and practices killing, they'd reconsider.

[friendly_iconoclast]

81. "(T)he gun culture" that *you* belong to, by dint of being a gun owner

Sinclair Lewis had guys like you pegged many years ago, as pointed out in Daniel Okrent's excellent Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition

From page 291:

...This view was not confined to the very rich, as Sinclair Lewis demonstrated so vividly in Babbit. During the "canonical rite" (Lewis's term) of cocktail hour at George Babbit's house, one of the solid burghers of Zenith insists that requiring drinkers to be licensed was a much better idea than Prohibition: "Then we could have taken care of the shiftless workman- kept him from drinking- and yet not've interfered with the rights...of fellows like ourselves." Another says, "You don't want to forget prohibition is a mighty good thing for the working-classes. Keeps 'em from wasting their money and lowering their productiveness."

and even more bluntly on page 206:

...and in the very first words of Lewis's celebrated portrayal of a moralistic hypocrite: "Elmer Gantry was drunk."

I'm going to start using the term "Elmers" to describe gun owners that insist the problem lies with "other people's guns",
in honor of both Elmer Fudd and Elmer Gantry...

[Euromutt]

131. That sounds familiar...

Specifically, it reminds me of the conclusion of a talk given professor Charles Whitebread to the California Judges' Association:

What is the iron law of Prohibitions? Prohibitions are always enacted by US, to govern the conduct of THEM. Do you have me? Take the alcohol prohibition. Every single person who has ever written about it agrees on why it collapsed. <...> Large numbers of people supported the idea of prohibition who were not themselves, opposed to drinking. Want to see it?

Let me give you an example, 1919. You are a Republican in upstate New York. Whether you drink, or you don't, you are for the alcohol prohibition because it will close the licensed saloons in the City of New York which you view to be the corrupt patronage and power base of the Democratic Party in New York. So almost every Republican in New York was in favor of national alcohol prohibition. And, as soon as it passed, what do you think they said? "Well, what do you know? Success. Let's have a drink." That's what they thought, "let's have a drink." "Let's drink to this." A great success, you see.

<...>

Let's try the gambling prohibition. You know when I came to Virginia, this was a very lively issue, the gambling prohibition. By the way, I think it's a lively issue in California. Are you ready for it?

Have you ever seen the rhetoric that goes around the gambling prohibition? You know what it is. Look, we have had a good time. We have been together yesterday, we have been together today, I have known a lot of you guys for ages. How about after the talk, we have a minute or two, let's go on up to your room and we will play a little nickel, dime, quarter poker. Want to play some poker this afternoon? Why not? It's a nice thing to do.

Would we be outraged if the California state police came barreling through the door and arrested us for violation of California's prohibition on gambling? Of course we would. Because, who is not supposed to gamble? Oh, you know who is not supposed to gamble -- them poor people, that's who. My God, they will spend the milk money. They don't know how to control it. They can't handle it. But us? We know what we are doing.

That's it. Every criminal prohibition has that same touch to it, doesn't it? It is enacted by US and it always regulates the conduct of THEM. And so, if you understand that is the name of the game, you don't have to ask me, or any of the other people which prohibitions will be abolished and which ones won't because you will always know. The iron law of prohibitions -- all of them -- is that they are passed by an identifiable US to control the conduct of an identifiable THEM.

And a prohibition is absolutely done for when it does what? Comes back and bothers US. If, at any time, in any way, that prohibition comes back and bothers us, we will get rid of it for sure, every doggone time. Look at the alcohol prohibition if you want a quick example. As long as it is only THEM --- you know, them criminals, them crazy people, them young people, them minority group members --- we are fine. But any prohibition that comes back and bothers US is done for.

Emphasis in bold mine.

[SteveM]

109. You really mean if people knew how YOU think about the "gun culture"...

You are making your case now, but I don't see a groundswell. Maybe it's because you have such an animosity towards people, to the extent that you consider them killers.

[rl6214]

137. Delusional

[Simo 1939_1940]

127. That attitude assisted W in beating Ann Richards for the

the Texas governor's race, and help him beat Al Gore for the presidential race.

If we ever meet, can I buy you a beer?

:eyes:

By the way.........your "hope" will never come to pass - as "civilized people" are seeing to it that gun laws are becoming increasingly liberalized every year. But hope away.

[rl6214]

136. Most of the "civilized people" here think it is perfectly OK

As do the "civilized people" I know. Maybe YOU are the one that is not civilized.

[Simo 1939_1940]

32. Deviant behavior like

gay people displaying affection in public? Like hippie dolts occupying Wall Street?

Thanks for aiding our cause (RKBA) by putting your hypocrisy on display for all to see! :toast:

[Hoyt]

55. Nope. Guns aren't comparable. But, thanks for the stupid analogy.

[Simo 1939_1940]

90. Not a stupid analogy at all. Bigotry is bigotry is bigotry.

But thanks for your stupid response.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Hmm.

Been a long time since I've been called a deviant. Usually a t-bagger doing it too.

Hmm.

[Hoyt]

56. Apparently we agree on TBaggers -- so why would you act like them with respect to guns in public?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

94. Just because some members of the Tea Party carry...

...does not mean one is "acting like them".

Tea Partiers breathe air Hoyt. Why would you want to act like them?

See how silly that is?

[AtheistCrusader]

128. I don't know any tea baggers that conceal carry.

The range is one place where our social circles might overlap. I don't know of any that have CPL's or indicate in any way they carry.

The only other person I see on the pistol line that draws from a concealed holster, has an Obama bumper sticker on his car.

[Callisto32]

46. LONG LIVE DEVIANCE!!!

[Oneka]

48. another item crossed off my bucket list

Be on the receiving end of a moral crusade.

x

[DrDan]

50. Certainly displays a lack of confidence

[Hoyt]

57. Yes, carrying guns in public does.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

95. Yep...

...being overly concerned about what other people do which has no effect on you most assuredly displays a lack of confidence.

You live your life and I'll live mine. Don't tell me what to do and I wont tell you to STFU. Deal?

[DrDan]

114. just seems quite obvious to many of us here - as you see

[We_Have_A_Problem]

115. If it were obvious...

..you wouldn't be advocating for gun control

[DrDan]

116. of course I would

[We_Have_A_Problem]

117. So even though it is obvious to you...

...that we should all go about our business and not try to force our views on others, you state that you still continue to advocate for forcing your views on others?

Do you understand the word "hypocrisy"?

[DrDan]

123. just trying to make everyone a bit safer - but you knew that

[We_Have_A_Problem]

134. No, i didn't know that.

I don't presume to know what others are thinking or their motivation for doing things.

You said it is obvious to you that we should just let others lead their own lives, and in the same thread say that you just want to make everyone a bit safer...hmm...

Has it occurred to you that "making" another safer is not your job and your opinion of what is or is not safe has no bearing on the choices another may make?

[PavePusher]

132. ...in the police to be by one's side 24 hours a day.

You really need to complete your thoughts. tsk, tsk....

[SteveM]

107. Moral condemnation worthy of a B-movie about religious intolerance. nt

[Remmah2]

19. No daily carry here.

Only twice in my life.

I know plenty of farmers who do cash business and carry daily. Very common to see a handgun under someone's Carharts at an auction or at the feed mills. Nobody gets excited except for the city folks.

[YllwFvr]

20. carried for several years before I became a LEO

its become second nature

[DissedByBush]

21. No carry here

It's not my thing.

But feel free to do it yourself.

The great thing about America, we all get to do our own thing.

[Fokker Trip]

23. Yeah that's good and all.

But is no one who carries really connecting the dots that they happen to live in the most murderous western nation and that the ability to freely brandish guns is mayyyyybe part of the problem?

Freedom is great but freedom doesn't require that one be armed, and the most liveable countries in the world don't allow the carrying of firearms in public.

Just sayin'.

(that said I do have a fascination for guns, they are heavy and metal and can be quite beautiful in a designy way. I do not own any however for the only reason a handgun exists is to kill or hurt other humans and I don't want to promote that)

[gejohnston]

24. not really

and here is why:
the laws were liberalized just before a crime drop {no, has nothing to do with it}.

[Straw Man]

26. All.

But is no one who carries really connecting the dots that they happen to live in the most murderous western nation and that the ability to freely brandish guns is mayyyyybe part of the problem?

What "ability to freely brandish guns"? Are you aware that "brandishing" is against the law even where carry (concealed or open) is legal? I have the ability to freely carry a gun. That's a very different thing.

Freedom is great but freedom doesn't require that one be armed, and the most liveable countries in the world don't allow the carrying of firearms in public.

Freedom doesn't "require" anything. If offers one the ability to choose. I'm curious as to which countries you consider to be "the most liveable."

(that said I do have a fascination for guns, they are heavy and metal and can be quite beautiful in a designy way. I do not own any however for the only reason a handgun exists is to kill or hurt other humans and I don't want to promote that)

Surely you've heard of target shooting? Handgun hunting? Furthermore, carrying a handgun for defensive purposes in no way "promotes" killing or hurting other humans. That may be the byproduct of a violent encounter, but the purpose for carrying the handgun is to avoid being hurt or killed oneself. If the presence of a defensive weapon can cause the encounter to come to an end with no one being hurt or killed, so much the better.

[Fokker Trip]

33. Intersting points Straw Man

I see your point about the word brandish, I do know that brandishing a gun is illegal and I'm not saying that you personally would do this. It seems to me that it's a fine line between having a gun on your person and being able to brandish it. By what you say it seems that you're basing your clarification on the idea that everyone who carries a gun has the same mental stability/level-headedness as those who carry guns and are on DU seem to possess. I don't believe that such stability is that wide spread in the general population as and the economy continues to deteriorate that mental stability will only decline.

Freedom in ones head is a choice. Freedom within society at large requires a civil structure that supports it. Those living in North Korea may be able to choose to be free in their minds but they cannot in any wqy choose to be free within society. Though of course every society exists on a coninuum of freedom, some more so some less and in different ways. I think feeling like one needs to carry a gun all the time means that society is less fee. The US does have the largest prison population in the world, more than China. What does that say about freedoms within the US?

I'm referring to the rankings of the most livable countries in the world by the UN.

Most and Least Livable Countries: UN Human Development Index, 2006

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778562.html

The US ranked 8th in 2006 and with the way the economy has gone might be lower now or the same ranking.

Yes I think target shooting is great but are you really asserting that the main purpose for a handgun is target shooting? They weren't developed to be used for target shooting(though I have done it and it is fun), they were developed to hurt or kill other humans. Ditto with hunting.

If you look at the firearm related death rates Globally. The US ranks first per a study by the CDC. Here is a quote:

"The United States leads the world's richest nations in gun deaths -- murders, suicides, and accidental deaths due to guns - according to a study published April 17, 1998 by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in the International Journal of Epidemiology.

The U.S. was first at 14.24 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Two other countries in the Americas came next. Brazil was second with 12.95, followed by Mexico with 12.69."

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6166

It would seem to me that being free to carry handguns and living in the country with the highest firearm death rates in the world are related. Mexico has fewer.

In my opinion carrying a gun is carrying a gun. Saying its for defensive purposes relies again on the mental stability of the carrier. That, to me, is not a reliable way of insuring that guns are used in a purely defensive manner

The last part of what you say seems like pretzel logic. If you are ready to shoot someone to defend yourself then you are promoting violence, because you are carrying a weapon designed to hurt or kill other humans. Whether its your intent to promote violence(and I'm sure that in your case it is not) is beside the point. Its a spiral that doesn't end as everyone needs ever more weaponry to defend themselves from an unknown future scenario.

[Straw Man]

70. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I strongly disagree, of course.

Yes I think target shooting is great but are you really asserting that the main purpose for a handgun is target shooting? They weren't developed to be used for target shooting(though I have done it and it is fun), they were developed to hurt or kill other humans. Ditto with hunting.

The main purpose of many handguns is indeed target shooting. I own some that are very good for this purpose and very bad for any other purpose. There are also handguns that are designed for defense. Large-caliber, large capacity handguns are much more effective for that purpose. (No handgun is intended as a primarily offensive weapon, since rifles are far more effective in that role.) Self-defense at close range is the original purpose of handguns as a class. If you think that this somehow attaches a moral taint to the object as a class, I would suggest that the same taint should attach to long guns, bows, knives, axes, and bats.

It would seem to me that being free to carry handguns and living in the country with the highest firearm death rates in the world are related. Mexico has fewer.

Yet Mexico has an overall homicide rate double that of the United States.

http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=699

Small comfort for the murder victims that their deaths were not caused by firearms.

The last part of what you say seems like pretzel logic. If you are ready to shoot someone to defend yourself then you are promoting violence, because you are carrying a weapon designed to hurt or kill other humans. Whether its your intent to promote violence(and I'm sure that in your case it is not) is beside the point. Its a spiral that doesn't end as everyone needs ever more weaponry to defend themselves from an unknown future scenario.

How can it be "promoting violence" if the weapon I am carrying is never utilized, or even shown, unless violence is already taking place? Furthermore, there is no need for "ever more weaponry" -- the standard for self-protection has been and continues to be a repeating handgun, whether revolver or semi-automatic. I'm not advocating that everyone arm himself or herself, but I believe that law-abiding individuals should be allowed the freedom and autonomy to decide when it is appropriate and prudent to do so.

You seem to be suggesting that crime victims should sacrifice themselves in the name of the greater good of non-violence. I admire that as a personal choice, but it is not one I am willing to make for myself or my loved ones. If that makes me selfish in some eyes, so be it. I believe that violence in self-defense is not immoral.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. " that the ability to freely brandish guns is mayyyyybe part of the problem"

Let me stop you right there.

Bullshit. Unlawful behavior described. Brandishing is a crime in every state I am aware of.

[PavePusher]

44. "...the ability to freely brandish guns..."

"...the only reason a handgun exists is to kill or hurt other humans..."


I think that part of the problem is you may be ignorant of the laws about firearms and the vast majority of their legal uses.

That is certainly what your post indicates.

[DissedByBush]

86. You're right, freedom doesn't require one to be armed

Freedom allows one to be armed if he so desires.

It wouldn't be freedom if being armed were required.

[SteveM]

110. You may wish to consider connecting dots over seas...

where Russia (not a "western" nation, but I fail to see the significance in that delineation) has a much higher rate of murders than the U.S., yet has strict gun-control. Perhaps other "killing" things are used.

True, "freedom doesn't require that one be armed," but freedom doesn't require that you do NOT be armed. It does allow one that option. As for "most livable countries," whatever you consider as "livable" is not clearly stated, but I'll take their guaranteed health care! You think that has more to do with "livable" than "carrying guns?"

I appreciate your "fascination," but I don't see the point about your "only reason." I have a revolver used by a former LEO, and it is designed for close-up self-defense (your "kill or hurt?"). That is a legitimate use, so I don't need to (nor do I) promote it.

[Kennah]

27. Daily carrier, not LE, and I wear a seat belt

[Tejas]

73. Same here, also have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.

:)

[spin]

28. I'm retired. I don't leave the house everyday but when I do ...

I carry just as I did before I retired.

I carry a .38 S&W Airweight snub nosed revolver in a pocket holster. On the way out the door I grab the weapon, place it in its holster and slide both into my front pants pocket. It's so light I can almost forget that I am carrying it.

The fact that I carry does not make me feel macho and I do not carry because I am afraid. I have enough training in the martial arts to realize that if I ever face an attacker armed with a handgun who is smart enough to stay out of my reach then I am at a serious disadvantage. Obviously if all he wants is my money, I'll just give it to him. I can replace my money, my driver’s license and my credit cards but I can't replace my life or my health. If I suspect that he intends to seriously hurt or kill me, then I have little to lose by attempting to defend myself with my own firearm.

I doubt that I will ever have to use my weapon for legitimate self defense and pray that I never do. I have absolutely no desire to ever injure or kill another person. Even if I was entirely within my rights I would still have to live with the psychological aftereffects. I currently sleep well at night and have no desire to have to suffer through nightmares.

But no matter where you live and no matter how alert you are, there is a chance that you might find yourself in a really bad situation. I know that many people journey life's path without ever encountering serious danger from an attacker. I also know many who have survived attacks and some who did so because they were armed. You only get to talk to the survivors. People who are six feet under don't get to tell you their tale. I'm self reliant and believe in being prepared as much as practical for any eventuality that I might encounter.

People differ. I have absolutely no problem with those who refuse to own a firearm. My own father was one. Many people have good reasons for not wanting to own a firearm. Some are wise enough to realize that they lack the characteristics that would allow them to own a deadly weapon. Some may have severe anger management problems. Some may often drink to excess. Many may have no background in handling firearms and little interest in learning how to. Some may have had tragic incidences occur in their lives that cause them to hate firearms. Some may be intelligent enough to realize that they lack the responsibility and the commonsense required to own a deadly weapon. Some may simply be non-violent and would never fight back no matter what situation they found themselves in. Many who do own firearms own them only for target shooting and hunting. Many who own a firearm for home defense would never consider carrying one in public.

Owning firearms and/or carrying one for self defense is an individual and serious decision for each person to make. You have to look in a mirror and ask yourself, "Could I actually pull the trigger knowing that I might seriously injure or kill another human being? If your answer is, "NO!" then owning a defensive firearm is not only useless but foolish. That in no way makes you inferior to a person who can reply in the affirmative. If fact it MAY make you a superior individual. Having the mindset that enables a person to kill if necessary is not truly all that common or anything to brag about.

But if you feel that you are so strong and tough that you can even walk down dark alleys with $100 bills hanging from your back pocket and take on any and all and therefore have absolutely no need for a firearm no matter what happens -- then I fear you are simply a fool. Hopefully you are a damn lucky fool. You may even have survived several life and death encounters on the street but that doesn't guarantee that you will live through the next one.

I am also smart enough to know that my having a firearm on my person does not mean that I will not be injured or killed in a fight. It does allow me a far better chance against a younger and stronger opponent. I suffer from degenerative disk disease and am a candidate for a hip replacement. The fact that I walk with a bad limp and have a handicapped sticker on the rear view mirror of my car may make me a tempting target for a predator. Once again that doesn't mean that I live in fear. It just means that I understand reality.

[Fokker Trip]

34. See, what you're saying makes total sense.

I agree with everything you are saying. But people on this board seem to be very level headed. I don't think that this is true of the general population and that's what I have trouble with. There isn't much of a vetting process to own or carry a gun, one has to rely on the teaching of parent to child or some other responsible figure and that is missing for a great many people. I don't mean people who are obviously unstable, but those under great stress are everywhere and that cracks people every day. When they carry guns, I think that the danger posed is high. And I do think that a lot of people who carry guns are afraid, not all by any stretch, but plenty.

I don't think that people who choose to carry guns are better or worse than anyone else because of it. But I would say that a society where a lot of people feel threatened enough to feel that should carry a gun is a less functional than one where only the police are allowed to carry guns.

I think that you're the exception, Spin, not the rule.

[rrneck]

65. Yours is a valid concern

but just ask yourself: How many times in your daily travels do you run across someone going shit nuts without a gun? I mean, when you go to a restaurant do you more or less expect somebody to go nuts and start turning over tables?

[spin]

68. Thanks for feeling that I am the exception, however ...

I know a large number of people who have concealed weapon permits in Florida. Many are police or ex-police. A high percentage are ex-military some who have served in combat zones. Some have no military or police background but have studied the martial arts and are quite capable of handing themselves well in a confrontation as they have considerable experience in competing in tournament competition. A few are simply people who decided to get a carry permit and went through the training required.

I will admit that I influenced several people to obtain carry permits when they asked me about mine. I didn't even try to sell the permit as a good idea, if anything I tried to discourage them by asking some tough questions. When they expressed interest, I would ask them why they felt the need to carry and tell them that there was little chance that they would ever need the permit. I would ask them about their background in firearms and if they replied that they had little or none, I would point out that concealed carry requires great responsibility and one who does carry should not only know basic firearm safety but should be willing to spend enough time on the range to become proficient with their weapon and be willing to maintain that proficiency. I asked them if they could actually pull the trigger of their weapon in a bad situation where they were being attacked knowing that the results might injure or kill the attacker. I explained that not only would they face legal consequences if they actually used their firearm in legitimate self defense but they would also suffer psychological aftereffects. I asked them to look at themselves in a mirror and honestly think about their deficiencies which might make carrying a firearm in public a bad idea. I told them that if they had anger management problems, occasionally drank to excess, were forgetful and sometimes did irresponsible things -- then they should avoid carrying a firearm. I also mentioned that if they were in a volatile relationship with a significant other even owning a firearm was a poor idea. I asked them about the age of their children and discussed the necessity of safely storing firearms with young children in the home.

I discouraged probably as many people as those who ended up getting a carry permit after our conversation.

I have never encountered a person who seemed to be feel that they were living in fear and wanted to get a carry permit for that reason or one that carried primarily for that reason. The people I know who carry are much like me in that they are self reliant and wish to be prepared for any eventuality even unlikely or rare ones.

Only a few of the people I know who carry pack a truly powerful handgun. Most carry a small compact handgun in a caliber that might be considered marginal for self defense. I carry a .38 snub nosed revolver which only holds five rounds. If I were actually afraid of being attacked it would make more sense to carry a weapon that held far more rounds in a more lethal caliber such as .40 or .45. However, it is true that I live in Florida where concealing the larger and more powerful weapons is difficult during most of the year.

And I have known several people who were able to stop a bad situation because of their concealed weapon. None had to actually shoot another person. The fact that they were armed defused the event. I don't know a single person who had a carry permit and actually shot another person while carrying in public.

I suspect that most of the people who carry on a daily basis are people who could be described as gun enthusiasts and actually have owned and shot handguns for years. They are similar to those who always carry a knife. I also fit into the knife carrying category and have often been asked why I carry one. I've owned knives all my life. I collect knives. I know how to sharpen knives and mine are razor sharp. Of course I don't carry one as a weapon but as a tool. I carried one for 37 years while at work and there was a period of time where people who had talked to me aboout why I carried a knife went out and bought one. In fact it turned into a fad at work.

Knives are very useful tools to have with you and if you carry one you will be surprised at how many times it will prove handy during the day. I never have to go searching for a knife, scissors or wire cutters. If I am ever in an accident and need to cut a seat belt I have the tool with me.

But some people are concerned when they notice others at work have knives. Many companies forbid the practice of carrying a knife unless your job requires one or the rules limit the size of the knife. The management at my company never seemed concerned about my carrying a knife, but they did seem a little worried when it became a fad. No one was ever threatened to stabbed by a person carrying their personal knife while I worked there, but one person was stabbed in the back with an X-auto knife that was issued by the company as a tool.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

96. Most people are very level headed Fokker.

Why would you think the general population is not? If it weren't, we would be seeing far more of what the Brady Campaign and their ilk claimed would occur with the liberalization of concealed carry.

Yes, we are all under stress. Such is life. The vast majority of us handle it just fine.

Yes, there is a vetting process for those who wish to carry concealed in most states. Ownership requires none and it shouldn't. After all, it IS your right to own firearms.

The problem with believing that a society where only the police are ALLOWED to carry guns would be a better one is you're assuming those who already carry them for criminal intent would continue to do so. Besides, there's that whole 2nd Amendment thing. I don't need permission to be armed. The government needs permission to force me to be unarmed.

[Hoyt]

58. Why would you walk down "dark alleys with $100 bills hanging from your back pocket?"

I'd suggest a little more thought about where you go than apparently you put in when you grab your gun -- as if they were keys or something -- on your way out the door.

Truthfully, I don't think you are anymore a target than most people. And, maybe you don't understand "reality" if you think predators are targeting you. Plus, if you'd quit walking down dark alleys . . . . . .

Finally, believing you are a target and carrying a gun is dangerous to other people in public.

[spin]

69. If you read my post carefully ...

you will realize that I was using a little sarcasm for those who feel that they are so big and tough that they can beat anybody they ever encounter. I've seen a few who seem to believe that and expressed that in posts in this forum.

[Hoyt]

78. Yep, I have, because you don't have to "beat anyone" and you dang sure don't have to shoot them.

It is very dangerous for the public when someone packing a gun or two views themselves as prey.

[spin]

82. I hate to point this out to you ...

but you may well be considered prey by a predatory criminal. It's fact and happens numerous times every day all across our nation. You can pick up any city newspaper and read about such incidents and many are ignored as they are too many to cover.

That's why it's not a bad idea to be prepared in case you find yourself in a situation where your ability to respond will make the difference between your ending up in a hospital for a long time or six feet under. While the chances that you will find yourself in such are not all that large, it usually happens to those who believe it never will.

Note that I am not advising you to start carrying a handgun. That is your decision and would require a lot of careful thought on your part as I pointed out above.

[Hoyt]

88. As members of gun culture like to say with this type post, "got any facts or citations."

Sorry, I don't fell like "prey" and any of you who do should seek help somewhere. And please, no weapons in public.

[spin]

91. Our views on life differ ...

I am aware of the reality in life. You chose to ignore it.

The reality is that neither of us will likely ever be attacked by someone who intends to injure or kill us. However that possibility does exist. If you view yourself as potential prey you will be far more alert to your surroundings and may well be able to avoid a situation where an attack is possible.

When I am behind the wheel I practice defensive driving. I seriously view other drivers as potential hazards and fully expect the person who is stopped at an intersection will suddenly decide to pull out in front of me or the person I am passing will suddenly decide to pull into my lane for not reason. I don't tailgate other drivers as they may suddenly decide to slam on their breaks for no reason. I go out of my way to not irritate other drivers. It's amazing how many times that having my outlook on driving has enabled me to avoid an accident. That doesn't mean that I fear driving. I enjoy the hell out of it but I don't talk on a cell phone while driving and I keep my attention on the traffic around me. So far I have been driving for 50 years and have never been the cause of an accident. The only accidents that I have ever been in were when I was stopped at an intersection or in traffic and some fool ran into me from behind.

I have the same attitude while in public. I am alert to my surroundings. If my radar detects a suspicious person I go to a higher level of alert. That doesn't mean that I think of going for my concealed weapon. It merely means that just as when I see a car weaving erratically through traffic, I try to stay out of his way. I also don't walk down streets with a cell phone glued to my ear.

We differ on our attitude toward life. You consider me fearful and I consider you somewhat naive. You also seem to have a totally irrational fear of those who legally carry. I suspect that in fact you are far more afraid while in public because you fear that everybody that is near you might be carrying a firearm and might suddenly decide to shoot you or their firearm will drop out it a holster, hit the ground and shoot you.

Perhaps you should seek help. You definitely appear to be excessively paranoid.

[RSillsbee]

84. I don't consider myself prey

Prey isn't armed

[Hoyt]

89. So you are just armed prey? See recommendation in post above.

[RSillsbee]

98. Please re-read my post

I'm not prey on any level

I'm a porcupine docile, quiet, don't go out of my way to bother other animals, not a predator, but God help you if you try to grab me.

[X_Digger]

29. If I leave the house, I carry

Keys, cell phone, wallet, pocket knife, gun.

[S_B_Jackson]

35. I carry everyday, as does my wife...

It's a pain in the ass at first, but like you it becomes habit and you get accustomed to it. It's much the same as putting on a watch as you get dressed in the morning...

[AtheistCrusader]

41. I carry when I am out and about, but not at work.

My employer forbids it, and that is fine with me.

[era veteran]

43. At opening and closing I am armed.

A decision made with a lot of thought.

[GreenStormCloud]

60. I do. N/T

[ZombieHorde]

72. I feel more confortable knowing my neighbors have guns than I do knowing

law enforcement folks have guns.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

93. I do. Not a big deal, IMO. 90%+ of my aquinences don't know I'm carrying.

I don't think it's a big deal.

[michreject]

99. I do too

99% of my acquaintances carry as well.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

100. You know what I can't imagine?

People who think their limited imagination is a sound basis for public policy and the exercise of rights.

[RSillsbee]

111. To be fair

The other member didn't say any of that she just said that she hadn't ever considered that that there were people that weren't cops that carried on a daily basis.

Here is the quote Just never thought about anyone carrying a gun (outside law enforcement) on a daily basis.


And here is the thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5065451#5066136

[We_Have_A_Problem]

112. Fair enough...

...however, as we all know, the fact that someone cannot imagine why another would do that seems to be reason enough to be pro-gun control for many people...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

120. I carry daily at home due to my location

I might do it less if I lived elsewhere

[oneshooter]

129. I carry daily, as does my Loving Wife. Deal with it Hoyt. n/t

[Simo 1939_1940]

133. I suspect that he'll deal with it by screaming, kicking his

legs in his highchair, and hurling his whirled peas across the room.

[belcffub]

130. daily carrier as well

but not to work as it would be against the law there... but everywhere else I do...