Greece bars boats leaving Greek ports for Gaza

[oberliner]

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece on Friday banned ships heading to the Gaza Strip from leaving Greek ports, and a vessel carrying several dozen Americans which left port without permission was asked to return.

A flotilla of nine Greek and foreign-flagged vessels and several hundred activists have said they want to break Israel's sea blockade and deliver aid to the Palestinian territory.

Greece's Civil Protection Ministry said coast guard authorities had been ordered to take "all appropriate measures" to implement the ban. It also said the "broader maritime area of the eastern Mediterranean will be continuously monitored by electronic means for tracking, where applicable, the movements of the ships allegedly participating" in the flotilla.

Witnesses said one of the boats, dubbed the Audacity of Freedom and carrying several dozen Americans, had left port Friday afternoon. Activists said on their Twitter feed that they had been intercepted by the Greek coast guard.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hB1FHRNbUR5RvxKDRmQBlah3xRaw?docId=c1e8d3e8f3ee47fda83102ef39418a1d

[Ice Number Nine]

1. How dare they try to take food and supplies to Israel's prisoners?

[oberliner]

2. The US boat isn't carrying any food or supplies

[Ice Number Nine]

3. what about the others???

I guess all prisons must restrict access. So why am I surprised?

[oberliner]

4. This is not a mission to deliver humanitarian aid

It is a mission to try to break the siege/blockade.

[tootrueleft]

9. The Irish boat is full of clothing. That not aid?

[oberliner]

11. There is no Irish boat full of clothing

There are nine vessels in the flotilla currently docked in Greece - none are from Ireland.

Incidentally, there are no restrictions by Israel on clothing entering Gaza.

Anyone who is interested in donating clothing to the people of Gaza is free to do so.

There was a deal on Groupon in fact not too long ago.

Check it out:

American Friends of UNRWA – Online Deal

Donate $6 to Help American Friends of UNRWA Provide Athletic Clothing to Children for a Summer Games Program in Gaza, With Matching Donations from an Anonymous Donor Up to $5,000

http://www.groupon.com/deals/american-friends-of-unrwa

No flotilla necessary.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tootrueleft]

19. Oh thats right, the irish ship is stuck in turkey after being sabotaged. Very clever. Well done.

[shira]

25. So sorry to burst your bubble but Turkey says Irish ship not sabotaged...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-turkey-probe-reveals-irish-ship-in-gaza-flotilla-not-sabotaged-1.370847

[tootrueleft]

37. Amazing how you suddenly believe muslims when they're telling you what you want to hear, isn't it?

[shira]

39. I don't think of Turkey automatically as "Muslims". Do you? n/t

[tootrueleft]

41. The 99% muslim nation of Turkey? No, I think of them as scientologist eskimos.

Can you give us an example of an instance where you were willing to post information from a such a predominantly muslim nation which criticised israeli criminality instead of disputing it.

Take your time....

[shira]

42. Do you have reason not to believe Turkey? Were they bought off by Zionists? n/t

[tootrueleft]

43. Why would denying an embarrassing security blunder involve being paid off?

[shira]

44. Can you be clear? What are you talking about? Turkey is covering up their own blunder? n/t

[tootrueleft]

45. No shira. Like every other nation, Turkey isn't covering up embarrassing balls ups.

As wikileaks proves everything happens just as reported in the media. Unless its favorable to the palestinians, in which case you'll rant about the reporters anti-israel bias.

[TomClash]

24. Yes, as usual, nothing to see here

Just move on. :eyes:

[shira]

13. X

[Lars77]

6. What are they carrying? nt

[oberliner]

8. Just the passengers themselves and letters of support

The only cargo is "3,000 letters from Americans to the people of Gaza."

That's what they say on their website.

[shira]

10. Obviously the Israelis hacked their website and put that stuff on there. n/t

[Lars77]

12. Cargo sounds fine by me.

What's the harm in letting them in?

[oberliner]

14. I don't see a problem with the cargo either

I was just pointing out that the US ship was not actually bringing any humanitarian aid.

[Lars77]

16. So how do you defend the Israeli decision to try and stop the ship? nt

[oberliner]

17. I don't recall doing that

I think the idea of the flotilla is stupid and I think Israel's efforts to stop it are also stupid.

[Lars77]

18. hehe well you're awfully active considering you think both sides are stupid nt

[JonScholar]

22. How is activism against an unjust and illegal blockade stupid?

[shira]

27. It's pro-Hamas bigoted activism against a legal and just blockade. n/t

[pelsar]

48. its called consequences....

if your asking such a question i assume you don't know what hamas is after and why breaking the blockade is the key....

[pelsar]

47. i'll explain all the efforts...

greece stopped them because countries do not want NGO's making and or effecting policy of various countries...it would cause chaos as they ignore the various rules and laws setup to between societies and countries to know what to expect from one another. NGO's tend to believe they have the moral right to do whatever their "morality is perceived to be" either not understanding what the real consequences are, or not caring....in fact they dont have any long term responsibilities so the consequences are not really relevant and can be blamed on others. Though initially they were innocent enough, that is no longer the case....

hamas and israel both understand the consequences and implications here. Its not the letters or the nice and "caring" people on the boats with their 3,000 letters...its the boats that come after that.

Hamas is a proxy of iran and hizballa and is in fact copying the hizballa methods. Whats missing are quantities of longer range missiles that can reach the larger israeli cities. Once the blockade is broken, and there is no longer any checking on what goes in to gaza, its pretty obvious that anti tank, anti aircraft and long range accurate military missiles will be imported.

for some that is no problem, but its pretty obvious the future scenario: hamas launches a few missiles, at ashkelon,/ashdod, preferable hitting a chemical storage tank....

and of course the nice people on the boats will be long gone, having done their business.

thats why the flotilla is dangerous, its not this single one, its what comes after (of course the irony is the nice people on the boat basically through their efforts supporting a fascist anti women, anti civil rights regime......(though i guess they imagine that they're not).
_______________

just for general knowledge, hamas still attacks israel via individuals near the border or an occasional mortar or kassam...meaning they still trying to murder israelis-the borders pretty tight so they're not very successful.

[hack89]

26. Political acts can be harmful

this is a political act - they want to break the blockade.

[Recursion]

29. That one is carrying letters. Ooh, the terror

They might papercut the good people of Sderot...

[oberliner]

30. How will the people of Gaza survive without these letters?

No doubt they are urgently needed.

[tootrueleft]

119. A letter of hope can nourish ur mind & soul enough to actually explain see an end to your suffering

[King_David]

5. That was a good call by Greece nt

[shira]

7. Aww, too bad. Maybe Free Gaza could take off from Syria next time. n/t

[King_David]

20. They probably would be killed from Syria.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x357174

[JonScholar]

21. They may be killed by Israel. Like what happened last time nt

[shira]

28. So they shouldn't provoke violence vs. a military blockade. n/t

[JonScholar]

32. Ah, the "they made us shoot them" argument. Classic. nt

[shira]

34. Yeah, they did as video proves. Notice no violence on any other ships last year? Why was that? n/t

[tootrueleft]

38. Ah yes the IDFs minute long footage while they confiscated all the hour long evidence.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Netanyahu's big fat Greek Wedding

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sometimes seems almost too arrogant and self assured for his own good. However, unlike in most instances, this weekend he actually has justification for his haughtiness.

Netanyahu’s personal investment in his relationship over the past year-and-a-half with Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou in which he increased diplomatic ties with the floundering European nation seems to have put the final nail in the Gaza flotilla’s coffin.

In his speech Thursday night for the Israeli Air Force Flight School graduation ceremony, Netanyahu discussed diplomatic efforts being made to prevent the Gaza flotilla from setting sail. The only leader that Netanyahu mentioned by name in his address was Greece’s George Papandreou.

Just a day earlier, the prime minister spoke with his Greek counterpart, imploring him to issue an order preventing ships from disembarking from Greece toward the Gaza Strip. Unlike in the past, Papandreou responded positively, and a top Israeli official involved in the talks between the Greek prime minister and Netanyahu said that Israel knew as early as Thursday afternoon that Greece was planning to block ships from leaving its ports toward the strip.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-s-big-fat-greek-wedding-1.370794

[King_David]

31. Good move by Netanyahu for a change. nt

[azurnoir]

33. Greece arrests captain of U.S. ship in Gaza flotilla

Authorities in Greece say they have arrested the captain of an American boat that was to be part of the Gaza flotilla.

The 60-year-old captain, whose name was not released by authorities, is being held at Piraeus police headquarters and will remain there until a court hearing Tuesday.

Greece's coast guard said Saturday the captain of the "Audacity of Hope" faces charges of trying to leave port without permission and of endangering the lives of the boat's passengers. The latter charge is a felony.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/greece-arrests-captain-of-u-s-ship-in-gaza-flotilla-1.370875

however despite that

Gaza flotilla aims to set sail from Greece next week

A pro-Palestinian flotilla hopes to leave Greece early next week to challenge Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip despite the arrest of the American captain of one of the vessels, organizers said on Saturday.

The convoy of cargo and passenger boats carrying volunteers from countries including the United States, Canada, France and Spain was due to depart at least a week ago but has been held up amid allegations of sabotage sponsored by Israel.

"Monday will be a day of action where we plan to continue sailing," Adam Shapiro, one of the organizers, told reporters in Athens.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-flotilla-aims-to-set-sail-from-greece-next-week-1.370909

[shira]

35. Good. Hope Greece arrests every last one of those hatemongers. n/t

[azurnoir]

36. so you are saying you wish to see your fellow Americans imprisoned in foreign countries?

Because you disagree with their political beliefs?

eta seems so here's what you said

Response to Reply #33
35. Good. Hope Greece arrests every last one of those hatemongers. n/t

[shira]

40. The same bigots who gladly hosted Gilad Atzmon and are working with Hamas? Hell yeah! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

46. So, are you claiming everyone involved in the flotilla is a hatemonger?

That's a mighty wide brush yr wielding there...

[shira]

49. Either that or the most willfully ignorant useful idiots. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

50. But you called all participants hatemongers...

I have a serious question for you. Do you even know who the participants are? I found a list and of the names, I only recognise maybe two or three, none of whom by any stretch of the imagination can be seen as hatemongers or 'ignorant useful idiots'. In fact, the ones I recognise on the list are all highly intelligent people and they're definately not hatemongers...

[shira]

51. The most willfully ignorant are most likely haters as well...

I mean the benefit of the doubt can be given at the beginning.

But once it's shown they're definitely in the presence of antisemites like Gilad Atzmon or working under and alongside Hamas - and they know what Hamas is all about - but they're indifferent and say it's still a "good cause regardless", it's hard not to assume the worst.

What if these same folks were working hand in hand with anti-Arab, anti-Black bigots under and alongside KKK members and once you make them aware of that fact they're still indifferent? They say it's still a good cause and they ignore/deflect the facts. How would you look at such people? Not that I expect you'll answer that but...

Also, who are some of the people you believe are definitely not hatemongers?

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Could you answer the question I asked you?

I asked you if you know who the participants are? It's just that you keep on making wild, sweeping statements about them, but I've yet to see you name any participants who yr slapping those labels on.

The participants aren't working with Hamas, nor as far as I'm aware, is Gilad Atzmon on any of the boats. And of course ending the blockade of Gaza is a good cause. Are you saying that because Hamas hold power in Gaza that we should support the Israeli blockade of Gaza? I'm not seeing how that same Guilt By Association card couldn't be played when it comes to the extreme RW govt of Netanyahu, and those who support the blockade are 'working under and alongside' the Likud/Shas/others coalition, and are 'useful idiots'...

I'll answer yr question. What would be the cause they'd be working with anti-Arab, anti-Black bigots and alongside KKK members for? I'd hope that anyone would disassociate themselves from the bigots, but if the cause is a good one, they should definately not turn their backs on the cause. I mean, there's some seriously anti-Arab bigots in the current Israeli government, so what would you want 'supporters' of Israel to do? It runs both ways...

[shira]

53. To answer you, here are some participants from last year singing death-to-Jews...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

I have yet to find anyone on the flotilla from last year or this year denounce such antisemitic crap. What you see in that video is just as bad as a bunch of Hebron settlers chanting death to Arabs by bringing up Deir Yassin.

Can we agree that the people in that video are antisemites?

======

Now about this flotilla.

The second flotilla is coordinated by this guy...
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2011/06/jcpa_resource_who_is_behind_th.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHhOPla-Unk&feature=player_embedded

The guys above singing death-to-Jews? They're this guy's boys. He's coordinating the 2nd flotilla.

See the problem yet?

[Violet_Crumble]

54. You didn't answer my question. I asked you if you know who the participants of this flotilla are...

If you don't know who they are, how can you find anything about what their views are? You labelled all the particpants of the flotilla as hatemongers, yet you don't appear to know who the individual participants are. Also, I'd be interested to get yr reaction to what I said in the post you replied to, as you don't appear to have addressed any of the points I made about playing the guilt by association card, and it's almost as though yr ignoring it.

I'll start off with two participants, and I'd like you to explain to me how you've come to the conclusion they're hatemongers, and it may be a good idea to do so without resorting to guilt by association, because as I pointed out in my previous post, that can cut more ways than one:

Amira Haas
Alice Walker
Heddy Epstein

[oberliner]

55. I am not sure that Amira Haas would consider herself to be a "participant"

I was under the impression that she was a journalist covering the event - is that not so?

[Violet_Crumble]

57. She was on the list of participants I saw

I guess it boils down to how you define participant. I'd have also included the crew of the ships, fwiw...

[oberliner]

68. Do you have a link to that list?

I know she has been filing regular reports on the flotilla at Ha'aretz which led to my assumption that she was covering the event as a journalist.

[Violet_Crumble]

76. I used the list at Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_participants_of_Freedom_Flotilla_II

[oberliner]

80. This is the source that Wikipedia uses with respect to Amira Hass

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-warns-foreign-journalists-joining-gaza-flotilla-is-illegal-1.369684

I think you are right - she is both a participant and a journalist.

[shira]

56. So the far rightwing extremists in #53 don't count? You're not aware of their views? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

58. You didn't mention anyone who's a participant in this flotilla...

So, no. They don't count seeing you were calling participants in THIS flotilla hatemongers. What I want to see from you is some evidence of why you think the current participants are hatemongers. I started you off with the names of a few individuals but you don't appear to have read my post or understood what you were being asked.

I could say a lot more about the whole Guilt By Six Degrees Of Association argument yr using, but assuming yr the Shira posting at Larry Derfners blog, then Larry has already explained to you much better than I could what the problems are with using that argument.

[shira]

59. You mean like the ISM?

Here's the scoop on the ISM...
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e149.pdf

They're mirror images of supporters of the most extreme greater Israel rightwing settler movement. Against 2 states, against Oslo, for the right of return, against the existence of Israel, for aiding Hamas and Islamic Jihad, claim suicide missions are 'noble', etc.

ISM leaders are in pictures with Hamas last year receiving medals of honor from Ismael Haniyeh here...
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbrabosh.com%2F2011%2F07%2F03%2Fpqpct-c3b%2F

They have a hard time condemning Hamas just as pro-settlers do condemning the most vile settlers.

The ISM are on the boats this year too.

[tootrueleft]

60. LOL! Nothing like some non-biased sources to prove your argument....

[shira]

61. What do you make of this pic of Mairead Maguire with the Hamas head receiving an award...

...with a map of Palestine replacing Israel?

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/83480258/AFP?language=en-US

The ISM is in the last post receiving medals of honor from Haniyeh.

Why?

What do you make of those photos?

[tootrueleft]

67. Did you not say previously there was no such place as palestine, or was that somebody else?

[shira]

72. Nope. Any thoughts on Mairead Maguire being honored by Hamas? n/t

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. No, like the individuals I listed. Are you going to explain why they're hatemongers?

Correcting that nonsense about the ISM can wait till you've explained to me exactly how the individuals I listed (Alice Walker, Amira Haas, and Heddi Epstein) are hatemongers. I really don't think you can, which is why the question has been repeatedly ignored...

[shira]

63. You asked for participants of the flotilla who are hatemongers. The ISM fits that bill perfectly.

I'd say that any fellow travelers with the IHH, Hamas, the ISM, etc... are themselves hatemongers every bit as much as fellow travelers of the most extreme rightwing, pro-settler, Arab hating movements - whom I suspect you'd never ever defend using non-guilt-by-association arguments. Derfner calls them moral cowards and describes the IHH, Hamas, etc... involved in both flotillas as his enemies (Jew haters deluxe).

BTW, Alice Walker recently compared the Jews of Israel to Nazis.

I feel that the Israel that many Jews dreamed of having – that one is gone. That’s demolished. I think it’s time for people to accept that. Because what you have now is something that is so frightening. Israel is as frightening to many of us as Germany used to be.

That's antisemitic.

Hedy Epstein has compared Israeli treatment of Palestinians with Nazi treatment of Jews.

Amira Hass is a big fan of the terrorist marxist group PFLP...
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-08-16/what-hamas-is-really-afraid-of/

[Violet_Crumble]

64. I asked you specifically about individuals. I even named some...

I didn't realise individuals participating in the flotilla automatically were travelling with IHH and Hamas. As for the ISM, what you posted about them was complete rubbish...

Have you got a link to what Alice Walker said so I can see what she said for myself? I'd prefer it be a link to what she's saying, rather than a link to yet another partisan 'pro-Israel' group who gives an interpretation of what she said...

I'd also like to see a link to what Heddi Epstein said...

And to add to the bit on Amira Haas you posted while I was writing this post, I just read the article you linked to. Writing about a group does not make her a fan of the group...

btw, after seeing all the emotional energy yr pouring into making out that the flotilla = fans of Hamas and terrorism, I'm really curious to know if there's any form of non-violent protest against Israel you do support. If there is, what would yr suggestion be for forms of non-violent protest against the policies of the Israeli govt (btw, did you read the thread about Glenn Beck's upcoming visit of support to Israel? Seeing yr very interested in guilt by association, I thought that would catch yr interest, but it didn't seem to...

[shira]

65. Links for Hedy Epstein and Alice Walker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Epstein#2004_speaking_tour_and_controversy
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=9999&x_article=1932

As to the sources, if you don't trust them then maybe you can provide one example showing how disreputable they are.

If you cannot show they're dishonest and deliberately inaccurate, then there's no reason not to trust them.

=======

Also, what do you make of these photos of the ISM with Hamas receiving medals?
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbrabosh.com%2F2011%2F07%2F03%2Fpqpct-c3b%2F

Why would Leftist peace activists receive medals from Rightwing warmongers?

[Violet_Crumble]

66. The wiki link directly contradicts what you claimed about Heddy Epstein...

Yr claim: 'Hedy Epstein has compared Israeli treatment of Palestinians with Nazi treatment of Jews.'

From the wiki article you posted a link to: '..event organizers stated that no "direct comparison" was intended by the posters, or would be heard in Epstein's remarks. Epstein echoed these sentiments, avoided comparisons between Nazis and Israelis, and spent little time discussing her background in Nazi Germany, writes the Daily.'

As for doing exactly what I asked you not to do, and linking to a highly partisan 'pro-Israel' advocacy group who gave their interpretation of snippets of what had been said in an interview, I'll ask again. Do you have a link to the interview itself so I can read what she said in context?

And I guess you don't remember one very good reason not to trust CAMERA. It's got to do with the Wikipedia scandal. Oh, and let's not forget these are the twits who accused Ha'aretz of fuelling 'anti-Israel bias'...

on edit: you missed the question I asked you about non-violent protests. Could you go back and answer it? Also, I was replying when you went and added the bit about the ISM in. I'm sorry to sound blunt, but what am I supposed to make of it? I'm at a loss as to why you think it's so important or what it has to do with you labelling the participants of the flotilla hatemongers...

[shira]

69. You're at a loss as to why Hamas rightwing hatemongers would reward Leftwing peace activists?

Here it is again:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbrabosh.com%2F2011%2F07%2F03%2Fpqpct-c3b%2F

How is it possible for Leftwing peace activists to cozy up to an extreme rightwing warmongering hate group like Hamas, if they're not hateful warmongers themselves? Maybe they're just useful idiots?

I thought these Leftwing peaceniks opposed everything Hamas stands for.

What, in fact, is there in common between Hamas' politics/actions and those of Leftwing peaceniks? There's nothing in common between the 2 groups, right? Hamas represents everything that is wrong with extreme, rightwing warmongering bigots - right? So what's the link between the ISM and Hamas?

=====

Lastly, what makes the ISM peace activists? They're against 2 states, against Oslo, for Right of Return, for BDS, for demonizing Israel with Nazi and Apartheid comparisons....

They stink like the most extreme far rightwing hateful warmongers, like Hamas "non-violent" politicos who have the same views as the most militant Hamasniks.

[shira]

70. Violet, could you please point to at least one hateful warmonger on last year's flotilla?

You're asking me to point them out, so could you reciprocate?

[shira]

71. More Hedy Epstein and Amira Hass....any problems with this?

Hedy Epstein, an 80-year-old German native who escaped the Holocaust on the Kindertransport, had been expected to "detail how the situation on the ground in Palestine today very much resembles the situation in Nazi Germany," according to a flier billing her talk Tuesday evening, Oct. 19, at U.C. Berkeley.

Because she has participated in actions with the International Solidarity Movement — a pro-Palestinian organization that coordinates acts of civil disobedience against the Israeli army — her reputation in the Jewish community precedes her.

Epstein, who has traveled to the Middle East twice in the past two years, did indeed offer some harsh indictments of the Israeli military's behavior in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in her Berkeley talk. But the woman who lost her parents at Auschwitz made no such comparisons of life in the West Bank to what she experienced as a child in Nazi Germany.

The only time she came close was when she held up the red sticker that security agents put on her luggage at Ben-Gurion Airport when she was leaving the country. She was interrogated for five hours, she said, and had to submit to a full body search.

"The Nazis made the Jews wear a yellow star," she told the crowd of about 100, most of them students. "I was labeled with a bright red sticker and told them that's how I felt. They told me it was because I am a security threat."

....

"When I stood next to the wall the first time in (the West Bank city of) Kalkilya, it came to me how 'Never again' is used as a motto by Holocaust survivors," she said. "But that means only for Jews, and now it is happening by Jews."

In the question period, some Jewish students tried to get Epstein to condemn how her talk was billed. She dodged those questions.

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/24083/-never-again-br-kindertransport-survivor-mideast-activist-causes-a-stir-in-/



Amira Hass is a big fan of the PFLP Marxist terror group...
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-08-16/what-hamas-is-really-afraid-of/


Lastly, CAMERA's attempts to get more honesty and accuracy into Wikipedia is not evidence of how dishonest or disreputable they are. Can you find one lie from CAMERA in all their years of reporting?

[tootrueleft]

74. CAMERA!! Quality. I didn't know tuesdays were comedy night round here!!

[tootrueleft]

75. Ohh violet 3 posts after one another. You hit a nerve. Some questions won''t be answered I guess....

[Violet_Crumble]

78. I was wondering what brought on the multiple responses within a 20 min period..

No harm done. I've pulled it all back into one post and gone from there. I'm hoping the question I asked about non-violent protest will get answered as I'm genuinelly interested to get a feel for what sort of non-violent protest against Israeli policy towards the Palestinians Shira would support, if any...

[Violet_Crumble]

77. Rolling three posts into one reply...

I'm not sure why you did three replies to one post within a twenty minute period, but having read through them and noticing that you again appear to have ignored all that's been said to you about the folly of using the guilty by six degrees of association tactic, that you yet again haven't answered the question I asked you about yr views on non-violet protests, and that you've made the exact same false claim about Amira Haas again even though I'd read it the first time you posted it and told you that the article you posted doesn't show she's a fan at all, I doubt the debate tactics yr using are doing anything but preaching to the converted....

In order of post appearance:

Yr first post yet again plays the guilt by six degrees of association card, and you seem to have forgotten that this exchange is about you labelling the current flotilla participants as hatemongers, bigots, sleeping around with Hamas, blahblahblah. While that first post raises the question of why you don't apply the same standards to LW types who meet with RW politicians when those folk are 'supporters' of Israel, you seem to be focusing on the flotilla from last year. As for what you claimed was inconsistent with being peace activists, none of what you said, even if it were all true, would mean that they weren't peace activists. The ISM is a movement who's philosophy is of non-violent direct action. It does appear to me that you harbour more rage towards non-violent protests and organisations than you do towards ones that are violent...

Here's the link to the About ISM page from their site for you to acquaint yrself with what they do...

http://palsolidarity.org/about-ism/

Yr second post makes no sense at all. I've repeated more than a few times that I asked you about the current flotilla, yet you insist on acting as though the discussion is about last year's flotilla. Also, I never asked you to name participants from last year's one, so I don't know why you'd claim I asked you to do that....


Onto the third post. This is the claim you made about Heddy Epstein: 'Hedy Epstein has compared Israeli treatment of Palestinians with Nazi treatment of Jews.' And to prove yr point you posted a link that led to something that directly contradicted yr claim. Sorry, but the hate I'm feeling isn't coming from Heddy Epstein. Thanks to the links you've posted, she comes across as a very compassionate and caring woman who supports Israel's right to exist.

Amira Haas. You already posted that link and I'd already told you that I'd read it and found that the article shows nothing of the sort. Writing about something doesn't make someone a big fan...

Have you got a link to what Alice Walker said in the entirety or not? You seem to not realise that the purpose of debate is to convince others of yr position, and not to demand they accept highly partisan and unethical sources on yr side of the fence as a source of all truth, and to persuade you (something I know from past experience is impossible) that there's even one bit of inaccuracy or deceit in anything ever said anywhere. When it comes to the Wiki scandal, the behaviour was unethical, which is why there was secrecy involved, and why Wiki banned all involved. That sort of behaviour isn't something to praise or be supportive of...

Lastly, you've twice ignored the question I asked you about non-violent protest, even though I've pointed yr attention to it in the post you replied to three times, so I'l post it again in the hope that you may decide to answer it:

btw, after seeing all the emotional energy yr pouring into making out that the flotilla = fans of Hamas and terrorism, I'm really curious to know if there's any form of non-violent protest against Israel you do support. If there is, what would yr suggestion be for forms of non-violent protest against the policies of the Israeli govt (btw, did you read the thread about Glenn Beck's upcoming visit of support to Israel? Seeing yr very interested in guilt by association, I thought that would catch yr interest, but it didn't seem to...

[shira]

79. Violet, when you have no problem with last year's team Hamas on the flotilla, there's no point

...moving on.

You'll just pretend no one on either flotilla is a fan of Hamas - or not a peace activist in any real sense of the word - and that doesn't make for an honest discussion.

When Hamas or fans of Hamas sponsor, coordinate, and participate in something like this then it is NOT a peaceful, humanitarian mission. Do you agree?

[shira]

81. Violet, here's video of ISM's Adam Shapiro explaining the flotilla - as one tactic to destroy Israel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okx5NwxAXVI&feature=player_embedded#at=145

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

[Violet_Crumble]

82. Again you've totally ignored every word I posted...

Telling you my question about individual participants was about the current flotilla, not past ones does not somehow translate into me saying I have no problem with last year's flotilla. It means that you made a lot of nasty comments about the current participants, so I was asking you about them. You didn't provide anything that supported the nasty accusations you've been flinging, and in fact I found the claim about Amira Haas based on what was linked to to be dishonest, so you should go back to whoever gave you that link and 'info' and tell them the truth...

Also, I really wish you'd taken the time to answer the question I asked you about yr views on non-violent protests.

[shira]

83. Adam Shapiro and his wife are both on the current flotilla, Violet. They are the ISM and FGM...

....so it's not as though they're marginal players in all this.

Amira Hass is extremely sympathetic and supportive of the PFLP. I'm not sure why you'd want to deny that.

And yes, that's me at Larry Derfner's blog. He just wrote an article for JPost based on our discussions together at his blog. Check it out:
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=228214
http://israelleft.com/2011/07/06/support-the-flotilla-with-all-its-faults/

[Violet_Crumble]

84. And? He opposes the occupation. That's not hatemongering or bigotry...

I watched the video and I didn't catch the bit where he says he wants to destroy Israel, and figure that much like the false claim you made about Amira Haas, that's because he didn't say anything about destroying Israel...

No, the link you posted twice trying to claim Amira Haas is a big fan of the PFLP doesn't show anything of the sort. Did you read the article before you posted the link to it? She writes about a friend who has friends who are members of the PFLP, and speaks about how while Hamas and the PFLP share some of the same views. Then she goes on to speak of how Hamas was crushing protests, so yr going to have to point out the bit to me that shows she's a big fan of the PFLP. Because I get the impression you think that if someone writes about a group being treated badly by Hamas, the writer must be a big fan of that group...

I'll ask again about yr views on non-violent protest. I'm really interested in seeing yr thoughts on what I've asked about....

After seeing all the emotional energy yr pouring into making out that the flotilla = fans of Hamas and terrorism, I'm really curious to know if there's any form of non-violent protest against Israel you do support. If there is, what would yr suggestion be for forms of non-violent protest against the policies of the Israeli govt

I can always go and sign up at Defner's blog if there's more chance you'll answer the question there ;)

[shira]

85. Well of course you don't see a problem with the speech from ISM's Adam Shapiro

In fact, here are his words from that video:

What we’ve been doing over the last ten years with the International Solidarity Movement, Free Gaza, and all the other outgrowth organisations and movements and groups is to ...work with Palestinian society to ramp up the resistance. This is all part of a Palestinian movement for Palestine...This is truly an international movement ... It’s only Palestine, this cause that has been going on for over 60 years, that generates this kind of activism, this kind of resistance...

1. Working with Palestinian society to ramp up the resistance means working with Hamas and IJ. That's Palestinian society. Not the moderates. That's why they're in photos receiving medals from Hamasniks. Hamas does the nasty killing stuff and his group does the non-resistant provocation. They work hand in hand.

2. What cause has been going on for 60 years with resistance if not the one that groups like Hamas, IJ, and other nasty warmongers have been waging vs. Israel since 1948 and beyond?

Watch that video again and you'll hear - as anyone else will if they listen too - that the goal of the flotilla isn't to provide humanitarian aid. It's one tactic of many to reverse 60 years of occupation and undermine Israel.

=====================

And here's another source for THIS year's flotilla being yet another stinky flotilla like LAST year's (which for some odd reason you still can't come to grips with as you have yet to identify even one member on EITHER flotilla who appears to be one of many fans of Hamas)....
http://www.jewlicious.com/2011/07/pro-palestinian-flotilla-activist-why-i-am-not-sailing-aboard-the-dutch-ship-afterall/

So when will you identify one stinky flotilla participant from years past? If you don't want to b/c you don't feel any are hating warmongers, just let me know. If you want to admit there WERE some really bad guys on past flotillas but you don't feel the need to identify them, that's fine too. Just let me know. Or, identify a few....

--------------------------

As to your question, I'm all for non-violent protest for the right reasons. If the ISM and FGM wanted to end the occupation and go for peace with 2 states and kumbaya, they could pretty much do whatever they want and work alongside PEACENOW and other genuine peace activists. I'll support and donate to them! The problem is fans of Hamas who have Hamas' goals in mind don't really get to pass themselves off as peaceniks looking to provoke violent situations that are tactics to defame and delegitimize Israel and its Jews.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. No, I'm honestly not seeing any problems with opposing the occupation...

After all, supporting Israel means working with totally bigoted politicians in the Israeli govt. That's Israeli society. Not the moderates.

I oppose the occupation. That doesn't mean I work with Hamas, any more than supporting the occupation means working with the extremist settlers who attack Palestinian civilians. Do you comprehend what I'm saying, Shira? Opposition of the occupation doesn't make someone a supporter of Hamas.


I've watched the vidoe a few times. Anyone claiming that Adam Shapiro is talking about his wish to destroy Israel is engaging in dishoensty. Wanting to end the occupation and not being fond of Israel and it's extreme RW govt is NOT wanting to destroy Israel...

I'm still waiting for you to show evidence that Amira Haas, Heddie Epstein, and Alice Walker are hatemongers. You've yet to show anything at all that shows them as being anything other than compassionate and caring people who want an end to the abuse of Palestinian civilians.

What are the right reasons for non-violent protest? See, there's plenty of people who want to end the occupation and want to protest peacefully, but I don't see you supporting them. So, what form of non-violent protest against the occupation do you find acceptable? It's just that you appear to accuse almost everyone who's opposed to the occupation as being fans of Hamas...

[shira]

87. How about opposing the 60 year occupation like the ISM? No problem with that?

Or working with Palestinian society (Hamas) and receiving medals of honor from Hamas for their "peace" efforts? :eyes:

Again, no problem?

What else could Shapiro possibly mean by bringing up 60 years of occupation and resistance, Violet?

OneVoice is a leftist genuine peace organization that the activists from ISM and the FGM oppose. They're for 2 states, genuine peace and cooperation b/w Jews and Arabs, but that's too much for Hamas, the ISM, and FGM. Here's an article where FGM and the ISM proudly boast of getting a OneVoice concert canceled:

http://electronicintifada.net/content/concert-cancellation-victory-against-normalization/782

No problem with that either? Then how about Adam Shapiro of ISM making this argument...

The Palestinian resistance must take on a variety of characteristics – both nonviolent and violent. But most importantly it must develop a strategy involving both aspects. No other successful nonviolent movement was able to achieve what it did without a concurrent violent movement…

You think those are the words of a genuine peace activist? Supporting violent resistance?

How about this from Shapiro?

Nonviolent resistance is no less noble than carrying out a suicide operation.

The ISM is for one state and full right of return, just like Hamas. They oppose normalization and cooperation between Palestinians and Israelis. So what exactly makes them a peaceful organization which you identify with?

--------

As to groups I support, I support organizations like One Voice, which the ISM and FGM opposes. Do you have a problem with One Voice? Are they not peaceful or Leftist enough for you since the ISM and FGM oppose their seemingly repugnant pro-settler views? Seth Freedman wrote about this here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/17/onevoice
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/31/onevoiceundeterred

I guess to the ISM and FGM, Seth Freedman is a pro-settler sellout. :eyes:

--------

Lastly, you didn't comment on this article about THIS year's flotilla with fans of Hamas involved in it:
http://www.jewlicious.com/2011/07/pro-palestinian-flotilla-activist-why-i-am-not-sailing-aboard-the-dutch-ship-afterall/

So you still don't see anyone you oppose affiliated with this flotilla?

[Violet_Crumble]

88. Palestinian society is not Hamas...

Hamas is the current government of Gaza. Saying that Hamas is the society is as ridiculous as saying the Republicans are the society of the US when they're in government. Society and government are not the same thing...

Meeting with Hamas or getting a medal from the leader of the govt does not make someone a hatemonger, bigot, or 'big fan' of Hamas at all. I'd criticise the judgement in doing so, and wish they were more discerning in future, but still be at a complete loss as to how them meeting Hamas makes it okay for you to fling wild accusations aimed at everyone who participated in this current flotilla.

Yr going off on a tangent again. I asked you what forms of non-violent protest you'd approve of. I didn't ask you what organisation you claim to support. Also, from what I've seen on their site, the ISM don't have an official position on support of a one or two state solution, and there's also nothing there that say they oppose normalisation between Israelis and Palestinians....

[shira]

89. It is when Hamas has a stranglehold on all that happens in Gaza.

You can't compare Republicans in a free western society to Hamas in a closed, totalitarian society. They both suck, but they both do not have the same control over the populations they serve/rule.

I'm for all forms of non-violent protest that Peacenow and OneVoice have utilized over the years.

You once showed support for OneVoice here at DU. But the ISM and FGM oppose them. You cannot honestly say you support both simultaneously as the ISM and FGM oppose OneVoice.

1. Do you oppose Israel's 60 year occupation that the FGM and ISM have said they oppose?

2. Can you now say you have problems with the FGM this year, based on - for example - this article?

http://www.jewlicious.com/2011/07/pro-palestinian-flotilla-activist-why-i-am-not-sailing-aboard-the-dutch-ship-afterall/

If not, you'll note that the FGM and ISM would have been happy to proceed even with full IHH support this year. That doesn't bother you? Larry Derfner wrote that these guys are the enemy. You don't agree?

[Violet_Crumble]

92. No, Hamas is NOT Palestinian society...

To me that repeated claim is coming across as an excuse to paint all Palestinians in Gaza as Hamas, and therefore legitimate targets for attacks by Israel. There is a big difference between a government and the society of a country. While governments (and it doesn't matter what form that govt takes) can have varying effects on society and how it operates, and members of the government are part of society, they're NOT the society. The regime in North Korea is not the society of North Korea, nor are the ruling Mullahs in Iran the society of Iran.

I'm not aware that Peacenow and OneVoice have actually carried out any peaceful protests over the years. I thought they were into education via meetings and seminars for example. Could you point me to examples of the peaceful protests they've carried out, so I can get an idea of what sort of non-violent protest you do support?

I support many organisations that want the occupation ended, and I doubt that as I see eye to eye with any of them on absolutely everything, that it's reasonable to expect them all to be in 100% agreement with each other....

1. I totally oppose the occupation and have said so many times in this forum.

2. I agree with the writer that there should be more transparency, though I think it's unrealistic to expect that something like this would be organised with military precision with every aspect of it an absolute certainty.

There's quite a bit I disagree with Larry Derfner on, and some things I don't know enough about to form an opinion on. To label someone or something my enemy, I prefer to be fully armed with as much knowledge as I can gather, and there's so many lies and bullshit surrounding the flotilla, I'd be sceptical of much that I'd hear even if I were interested enough to go out searching for it...

So, not that I think the flotilla's as important as you do, but I support the aims of the flotilla, which was to bring supplies to Gaza and to get a shit-load of publicity (I think the second is clearly the obvious main aim). I think such things would be totally unnecessary if the US stepped up to the plate and exerted some real pressure on the Israeli government to behave.

[oberliner]

94. OneVoice Israel gets up close and personal with Likud

New York, July 1, 2011—Activists from OneVoice Israel (OVI) went to Likud headquarters in Tel Aviv June 30 to deliver the ruling party a message: we're still waiting.

The activists hung posters demanding Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his party fill in the missing parts of a future agreement with the Palestinians. Thursday night's activity was in tandem with the online segment of the same campaign OVI launched on Facebook.

"Likud needs to remember that we still want and hope for a proposal, and we'll be waiting for it," said Danny Shaket, OVI's coordinator of the Youth Leadership Program and leader of the event.

OVI Executive Director Tal Harris said, “only 10 weeks ahead of the vote on Palestinian statehood in the UN General Assembly, Netanyahu is still torn between his own personal and political ideology and the overwhelming consensus both nationally and internationally for the two-state solution.”

http://blog.onevoicemovement.org/one_voice/2011/07/onevoice-israel-gets-up-close-and-personal-with-likud.html

[Violet_Crumble]

95. That's one, but I wouldn't think they do much in the way of non-violent protest...

They just don't seem to be set up to do that sort of thing and their focus is on education rather than action. Not that I have a problem with that, as I think there's a need for groups to do what they do.

Almost forgot to ask. Did you see the link posted a few posts back to an article written by Amira Haas about the PFLP. Did you think that article showed her to be a big fan of the PFLP? I thought it showed she had a friend who's got friends who are members of the PFLP, and that her focus in the article was on Hamas suppressing protests...

[oberliner]

100. Peace Now does a lot more

Not sure if we are talking about the Israeli or American branch, but in Israel they are extremely active in non-violent protests. I'm sure you can Google it as well as I can! (that is not meant to be snarky)

As for the Amira Hass article, I would not say that it showed her to be a big fan of the PFLP, but it certainly wasn't at all critical of them. Seemed warm to neutral (she did mention having a friend who is connected to that group).

I know that she is willing to be critical of Hamas as it was Hamas who kicked her out of Gaza not too long ago if I am not mistaken.

[Violet_Crumble]

105. They're organising a protest against Glenn Beck...

I've looked and there doesn't seem to be a lot going on right now when it comes to protesting the occupation. The thing was I didn't ask what groups Shira supported, I asked what form of non-violent protest she would support, and the answer I got was she'd support non-violent protest made by those two groups. I take that to mean that Shira finds *who* is protesting of far more importance than *what* the protest is in aid of....


Yeah, the article most definately didn't show Amira Haas to be a big fan of the PFLP, which was what the claim that was made was. I don't know what her personal views on the PFLP are, fwiw...

[shira]

96. First things first, please. Shapiro of the ISM states he's against the 60 year long occupation

...meaning he is against the very existence of Israel.

Are you also against that very same 60 year long occupation (not 40 years) mentioned by Shapiro? Why/why not?

[Violet_Crumble]

99. The occupation hasn't lasted for 60 years...

The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza began in 1967, and I don't agree with anyone who claims otherwise, whether they be people who don't recognise the legitimacy of the creation of Israel or those who deny there's any occupation by Israel of any territory...

[shira]

102. Shapiro of the ISM and FGM opposes Israel's 60 year old occupation (Israel's very existance)

You don't believe that is an antisemitic position to hold?

After all, opposing Jews' equal rights to a homeland is the same as being against a Palestinian state, a position against Palestinian equal rights to a homeland.

[Violet_Crumble]

104. Saying the occupation is 60 years old is stupid and incorrect...

I think I've already pointed out I don't agree with it. I don't think it is by itself antisemitic, anymore than someone opposing a Palestinian state makes them an Arab-hater...

[shira]

106. But the ISM are not only against Israel's 60 year existence...

Shapiro's wife, Huwaida Arraf wrote the following:

When I "acknowledged" that the ISM "cooperates with Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine," I was offering concrete examples of the ways in which these groups were engaging in nonviolent resistance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/16/AR2006021602027_2.html

Here's another ISM organizer admitting the same...

In fact, Barclay said in an interview with the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, she knowingly worked with representatives from Hamas and Islamic Jihad -- terrorist groups that sponsor suicide bombings and exist, according to their charters, to demolish the Jewish state entirely.

Barclay acknowledged that in organizing a non-violent February march on an Israel-imposed gate that divided eastern and western Nablus, she worked with representatives from the two groups.

"We are open to working with any political party as long as they are interested in non-violent resistance," Barclay said. "It's almost irrelevant who is participating."

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Activist-s-death-focuses-spotlight-on-Mideast-1110154.php#ixzz1RZugE4Ep

Here's Shapiro's wife Huwaida Arraf again, claiming just a few months ago that fellow ISM member Vittorio Arrigoni had a beautiful soul and big heart despite the following evidence about Arrigoni...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=349347&mesg_id=349450

If Arrigoni was not an antisemitic supporter of Hamas, no one is.

So it's not just the "60 year occupation" statement by itself that is highly problematic, right? How can you still claim the ISM is a peaceful organization?

Do I need to also mention that the ISM has harbored known terrorists and been in photos receiving medals of honor from Hamas?

Come on Violet.

[Violet_Crumble]

107. No, the organisation doesn't take that stance....

The organisation's aim is to use non-violent direct action to oppose the occupation by Israel. If yr still confused as to what that means, please explain why the ISM don't operate in Israel itself, but only in the Occupied Territories. And I agree with that aim. You clearly don't.

http://palsolidarity.org/about-ism/

And of course groups like the ISM would have to have some contact with different groups, whether they're militant groups or settler groups in Gaza and the West Bank. To assume otherwise is incredibly silly, imo.

I'm not even sure now why yr going on about that Italian guy that got murdered in Gaza. What's he got to do with the flotilla??

btw, if you spent even a fraction of the time muckraking individuals of 'pro-Israel' groups and condemning them for associations and what friends of friends may have said, I'd have a bit more patience for the tactic yr using to smear opposition to the occupation and the flotilla, but right now I've got none at all...

[shira]

108. Of course they do...

I brought up Arrigoni to show what the ISM is all about. They are the main people behind the FGM so you can't claim the ISM has nothing to do with the flotillas. The ISM leadership thinks Arrigoni, who was also an ISM activist, was a beautiful human being despite being an outright antisemite and supporter of Hamas.

He came to Gaza on a boat with "humanitarian aid" to break the siege in 2008, but I suppose if he were on a flotilla you still wouldn't be able to decide whether he's antisemitic or not, right?

That photo of him laughing it up with the Hamas head of Gaza also does nothing to take away from his Leftist peacenik credentials either? Because as we all know Ismael Haniyeh's Hamas is a Leftist peaceful humanitarian organization.

[Violet_Crumble]

109. No, they don't. I posted a link to their site where they say what they're about...

I don't know why you think that personal views of members of a group are the set-in-stone aims of the group itself. I'm a member of a few groups and I'm sure there's some wankers belonging to them I disagree with. But their views aren't the views of the group, just the same as mine aren't. Also, I pointed out the very obvious fact that the ISM don't operate in Israel itself, and work in the West Bank, so it's clear they see the West Bank as occupied territory, but not Israel....

I'm not sure why you think any of what you've said means people should not support the flotilla. There's some revolting bigots in the Israeli govt who oppose the flotilla. By opposing it yrself, does that mean I can use yr logic and smear you using guilt by association? Also, as I said in another post, there's so much bullshit flying round about the flotilla, I'm sceptical of much that I read. Why do you think I should believe any claims you make considering you made a completely false claim about Amira Haas and refuse to acknowledge it was wrong?

[shira]

110. And these "peace activists" were rewarded medals of honor from Hamas for........?

These are supposed to be leftwing, liberal secular, anti-racist peaceniks AGAINST rightwing, ultraconservative theocratic, bigoted warmongers.

It's notable the ISM and FGM have yet to publicize the goings on at that event. What are they ashamed or afraid of, Violet? Not even full IHH participation in Flotilla 2 would have turned the FGM away, even though we all know IHH is for very direct VIOLENT protest, as they're MB affiliated and therefore very pro-Hamas and the antithesis of everything Leftwing/Liberal.

Until you have some reasonable answers, there's no point continuing with this.

You can't defend the indefensible, just admit it...

=======

Since you support these guys, would you have done the same? Cooperated and celebrated with Hamas, include yourself along with the IHH in a flotilla....?

=======

Lastly, I'm certain there's no one you can point to who I support who would do the same as the ISM/FGM crew, like openly celebrating with the most vulgar and violent Arab hating settlers, being rewarded by them in a big ceremony, condoning their violent as well as non-violent protests, etc....

I suspect you'd have ZERO problem playing guilt-by-association if any individual or group I supported was involved in all that...

[shira]

111. To summarize about the FGM and ISM involvement with the flotilla...

Among other things...

1. Hamas rewarded ISM and FGM members with medals of honor, believing these guys to be their allies.

2. The ISM and FGM are against peaceful groups like OneVoice because among other things they're against peaceful cooperation between the Jews and Arabs of the region.

3. The current flotilla apparently has some shady Hamas ties that the ISM/FGM fear publicizing. Working with the IHH this year would not have deterred them, despite what happened last year.

4. They don't even mind hosting blatant antisemites like Gilad Atzmon to fundraise for the cause. Gilad Atzmon is just as beautiful to them as their lost friend Vitorrio Arrigoni was. Both being vile antisemites embraced by the ISM/FGM.


Why don't any of these things bother you enough to question whether the movement is genuinely peaceful? It's not just that they're opposed to Israel's 60 year occupation (Israel's very existence).

Do you not WANT to learn more about them before you continue supporting them? Or do you just not care about all these nasty things, but like Larry Derfner you believe the cause is just and support it anyway?

[Violet_Crumble]

112. Rolling two replies into one...

I expect that despite saying that you've got nothing left to say (and here I am still waiting for you to explain what *form* of non-violent protest you actually support, rather than what groups you support), you'll be back to repeat exactly the same things you've already said. I should just start referring you back to my first responses to each in the hope that you might actually read and digest what I say...

I originally asked you to list the specific individuals participating in the flotilla and why you were calling them all hatemongers. All I got after a lot of prompting was some bizarre and totally untrue claim that an article Amira Haas had written about the PFLP showed she was a 'big fan', and some changing of the goalposts in accusations aimed at Heddy Epstein, and a whole lot of guilt by six degrees of association, something which I've noticed you never, ever apply when it comes to 'supporters' of Israel. I remember you totally ignoring the association of the founder of PMW with Pamela Geller....

I don't know how many times you need to be told this, as I've already said it before. I support the goals of the flotilla and protests against the occupation. What I strongly detest is clumsy attempts to smear just about all attempts to protest by flinging the 'hatemonger' card...

[shira]

113. Violet, if you're not convinced the pro-Hamas bigots in the ISM/FGM are haters given the evidence...

...then no one is an anti-Israel hater, which is why you cannot bring yourself to naming even one individual hater in either flotilla. That's pathetic as there are MANY to choose from WRT Flotilla 1.

As to PMW's Itamar Marcus and Pam Geller, you played the guilt-by-association card to perfection. Here are your words...

Sorry, but are you serious when you say you need some evidence that Itamar Marcus is a bigot? I'm pretty sure people in this forum have explained to you before how the film he was involved in is a bigoted film. I can explain it again if you've forgotten. Or you could email Pamela Geller and get her to authenticate a claim that he's not a bigot? After all, he and Pamela have hung out together and he moves in the same circles. Shall you be needing evidence that Pamela Geller's a bigot as well?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x342720#342831

Now THAT's guilt by association (and quite the double standard). Am I to understand that only YOU can play that card to prove pro-Israel people are bigots? When used against anti-Israel activists, not so much?

:shrug:

If that's all it takes to prove someone's a bigot, then why don't you accept that the ISM and FGM founders are bigots given their positions on all that is I/P are the same as those of Hamas?

Has Itamar Marcus said he's against 2 states, for the right to commit violence against innocent Palestinians and labeled the murder of innocent Palestinians as "noble? Is he against cooperation between Jews and Arabs? Has he gladly promoted nasty bigots or been the happy recipient of medals or awards by disgusting organizations?

Itamar Marcus is a saint in comparison to the leaders of ISM and FGM.

[Violet_Crumble]

114. I thought you said you were bailing out of this 'discussion'...

After reading that post, I'm convinced you don't understand anything. Read what I said about Marcus and Pamela Geller again. What I said wasn't based on just one photo, it was based on his friendship with that disgusting bigot. I also think the point I was making sailed a mile-high over yr head. The point is that you totally ignore associations when it comes to 'supporters' of Israel, yet act in a completely opposite way when it comes to support of the Palestinian cause...

I'll refer you back to the link I posted about the ISM. They do not hold the same positions on all that is I/P as Hamas, and claiming so is just as disingenous as posting a link to an article by Amira Haas and falsely claiming it showed she was a 'big fan' of the PFLP.

That you think Itamar Marcus is a saint speaks volumes of a massive double standard as far as I'm concerned...

One other thing related to photos being 'proof' of being pro-Hamas. My brother was in a photo a few years back where John Howard (former PM and war criminal) was thanking him and another two of his colleagues. Does that make him a pro-Iraq warmonger? Definately not. He wasn't friends with Howard, didn't support the government's policies either on Iraq or a great many other things, and posed for the photo out of politeness...

on edit: If yr going to continue this discussion, do you think you could muster up the energy to explain what *forms* of non-violent protest against Israel's occupation you do support? You answered with saying you support protests by two groups, but you didn't say what *form* of protest that involves, nor why it's only acceptable from those two specific groups. Also, shall you be disassociating yrself from anything that the Israeli govt supports, seeing as how the govt contains bigoted extremists? Or will you return with a 'but they're absolute saints compared to...' response? If you do, can I ask for the list you use to make yr ranking of sainthood, and where on that list you draw the line and where it becomes acceptable for you to associate with bigots?

[shira]

115. The double standard is astounding. Marcus is a bigot b/c Geller is a friend but Hass is okay

...despite being friends with someone involved in the pro-terror, antisemitic PFLP.

Amazing.

I'm not the one claiming Marcus is a pro-peace activist. All I know about Marcus is that he runs PMW and AFAIK that organization has a great reputation for honesty and accuracy in its reports. That's the only reason I quote from them. I could care less what Marcus believes but I suspect he's nowhere near the warmonger the leaders of ISM and FGM are based on the twisted views they have (against 2 states, against Jews/Arabs cooperating, for the right to "noble" violence vs. innocents, promoting antisemites and their disgusting views, etc..). Those positions are right in line with Hamas. And since Hamas sees fit to reward the ISM/FGM with medals of honor it's quite obvious Hamas sees the FGM/ISM as an organization that mostly agrees with Hamas' heinous position WRT Israel.

But back to the comparison b/w Marcus and Hass.

You have no problem with Hass having at least one friend involved in the antisemitic, pro-terror PFLP. Further, her reporting (unlike Marcus') has been discredited many times. Here's one incident in which she was busted for lying and caught on camera doing so:
http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=48199&Date=1/7/2009

Now THAT episode is a great example proving Hass' repulsive hatred of certain Jews. What other reason could there be for concocting such a vicious lie?

As to peaceful protest, here are some examples from PEACENOW...
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=169222
http://therayve.blogspot.com/2011/01/tel-aviv-peace-now-protest-thousands-of.html
http://peacenow.org/entries/archive4391

Note how no one gets hurt at these protest rallies? And no one has to say they're non-violent because they actually are?

Lastly, when the Israeli gov't advocates for nasty stuff or acts in a harmful, irrational way then I don't support it and am all for PEACENOW or ONEVOICE protests like the above examples. I don't see ISM or FGM protesting anything HAMAS does, and what HAMAS does is at least 100x worse than anything you could accuse the Israeli gov't of doing. So once again ISM/FGM are frauds as they do nothing but mollify and support Hamas extremism (notice the medals of honor once again) and therefore weaken Palestinian moderates suffering from such extremism.

[Violet_Crumble]

117. I really wish you'd take the time to read replies before hitting the post button...

So here it is again. This time read it and try to understand what I'm saying: 'Read what I said about Marcus and Pamela Geller again. What I said wasn't based on just one photo, it was based on his friendship with that disgusting bigot. I also think the point I was making sailed a mile-high over yr head. The point is that you totally ignore associations when it comes to 'supporters' of Israel, yet act in a completely opposite way when it comes to support of the Palestinian cause...' If you'd read what you copied and pasted of what I'd said, you'd have noticed that I listed a few things, not least his involvement in a bigoted Islamophobic film....

Yr the one claiming that individuals you know nothing about are hatemongers and bigots, yet you show an entirely different standard when it comes to anyone who's a 'supporter' of Israel. Yr just displaying it more and more every time you post in this thread. You say you couldn't care less what Marcus believes, but it's a whole different story when it comes to support of the Palestinian cause where you spend inordinate amounts of time caring what individuals believe.

As for yr false claims about the ISM, I've told you more than once to go read their About Us page. I've had friends who are members of the ISM, and for you to label those friends of mine as 'pro-Hamas' is entirely incorrect.



Is the ISM affiliated with any political party?

No. The ISM is not affiliated with any one political party. The movement is open to all individuals and groups who choose nonviolent direct-action and other forms of unarmed resistance as a method for confronting and challenging the Israeli occupation. We work with grassroots community organizations, town and village councils, NGOs and Palestinian political parties.

Does the ISM support suicide bombers and terrorists? You have a statement on your website that says that, don’t you?

The ISM does not support or condone any acts of terrorism – which is not legitimate armed struggle. The ISM does not associate, support, or have anything to do with armed or violent resistance to the occupation. The ISM does not assist or engage in any kind of armed resistance, no matter what form it may take.

The statement in question is taken from the ISM Mission Statement:

“As enshrined in international law and UN resolutions , we recognize the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle. However, we believe that nonviolence can be a powerful weapon in fighting oppression and we are committed to the principles of nonviolent resistance.”

This right to resist occupation applies not only to the Palestinian people, but to all peoples who are faced with a military occupation. The ISM regards all people as equals with equal rights under international law. We believe that nonviolent action is a powerful weapon in fighting oppression and are committed to the principles of nonviolent resistance.

The ISM is not funded by any Palestinian political party, nor by the Palestinian Authority. Funds are raised from private citizens in communities around the world, primarily in the US and Europe. If you want to support the work ISM does, please consider a financial donation.

http://palsolidarity.org/about-ism/faq/

No, I don't have a problem with one of Amira Haas's friends being involved in the PFLP. How does that make her a 'big fan' of the PFLP? And her writing's been 'discredited' by zealoted 'supporters' of Israel, which gets a big yawn from me, and has nothing to do with yr false claim that she's a 'big fan' of the PFLP. And I'm not sure what that link you posted was supposed to prove, unless you think extremist settlers in Hebron are the font of all truth. And more than anything, where on earth do you come up with 'irrational hatred' out of her reporting eyewitness accounts of an incident? That's just bizarre...


A question about the peacenow protests. Have you gone and checked through everyone there to ensure they weren't connected with anything you don't agree with. I'd kind of expect given what you've said in this forum in the past that you wouldn't be in agreement with any calls to end the occupation now. Bunch of hatemongers! ;)

I don't see ISM or FGM protesting much of anything HAMAS does,

If you'd bothered reading the link to the ISM About Us page that I've supplied to you quite a few times now, you'd know why. They're working to end the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, not to protest Palestinian leadership.

I'm not sure why you think yr personal ranking of what's worse than something else matters at all. It doesn't. It doesn't even make sense. I'll ask you the same question you didn't answer from my last post: 'Also, shall you be disassociating yrself from anything that the Israeli govt supports, seeing as how the govt contains bigoted extremists? Or will you return with a 'but they're absolute saints compared to...' response? If you do, can I ask for the list you use to make yr ranking of sainthood, and where on that list you draw the line and where it becomes acceptable for you to associate with bigots?'

[shira]

118. Wow. As I wrote previously, there really isn't any point continuing. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

120. Great, then. Don't let me make you think yr being forced to continue...

Whatever logic it is that you use when arguing is totally foreign to me, and you appear to place far more importance on minor issues and individuals than I would. I'd also suggest to you in future that if you want to convince anyone but yrself and fellow travellers of what yr saying, it would help to not use extremely partisan and one-sided 'pro-Israel' sources and demand that I prove to you what's wrong with them. Yr supposed to be convincing others, not the other way round. I'd also suggest you start reading what yr linking to carefully when claiming things you link to support yr argument. There's been a bit of foot-shooting in a few of the links you posted, which could have been avoided if you'd read them before posting them.

[shira]

121. Let's just focus on Hass vs. Marcus for now, if you don't mind...

Since it doesn't seem we're getting anywhere with the other stuff...

What evidence do you have Geller and Marcus are friends? Link please?

As to Hass, she was caught viciously libeling Hebron settlers due to evidence that existed on video camera. She made up some extremely vicious lies and was forced to pay a fine. I'm quite certain anyone who reported like this against Palestinians, no matter how extreme they are, you would label the reporting as bigoted and hateful. In addition Amira Hass REALLY has a friend in the PFLP, a terrorist organization dedicated to killing Jews. So using your logic WRT your perception of Geller/Marcus, there's no question Hass is easily as bigoted as Marcus. I don't know why you can't see the double standard you're employing here.

[Violet_Crumble]

122. Let's not, for the reasons I just posted directly above...

A few posts back you ignored the question you've been asked a few times and did a one-liner saying you weren't continuing. Now you are, here's the question again: 'Im not sure why you think yr personal ranking of what's worse than something else matters at all. It doesn't. It doesn't even make sense. I'll ask you the same question you didn't answer from my last post: 'Also, shall you be disassociating yrself from anything that the Israeli govt supports, seeing as how the govt contains bigoted extremists? Or will you return with a 'but they're absolute saints compared to...' response? If you do, can I ask for the list you use to make yr ranking of sainthood, and where on that list you draw the line and where it becomes acceptable for you to associate with bigots?'


I'll just copy and paste what I've already said, seeing you aren't reading any of it:

'No, I don't have a problem with one of Amira Haas's friends being involved in the PFLP. How does that make her a 'big fan' of the PFLP? And her writing's been 'discredited' by zealoted 'supporters' of Israel, which gets a big yawn from me, and has nothing to do with yr false claim that she's a 'big fan' of the PFLP. And I'm not sure what that link you posted was supposed to prove, unless you think extremist settlers in Hebron are the font of all truth. And more than anything, where on earth do you come up with 'irrational hatred' out of her reporting eyewitness accounts of an incident? That's just bizarre...'

and

'Whatever logic it is that you use when arguing is totally foreign to me, and you appear to place far more importance on minor issues and individuals than I would. I'd also suggest to you in future that if you want to convince anyone but yrself and fellow travellers of what yr saying, it would help to not use extremely partisan and one-sided 'pro-Israel' sources and demand that I prove to you what's wrong with them. Yr supposed to be convincing others, not the other way round. I'd also suggest you start reading what yr linking to carefully when claiming things you link to support yr argument. There's been a bit of foot-shooting in a few of the links you posted, which could have been avoided if you'd read them before posting them.'

I figure even though you've said several times now yr bailing out, you'll be back again, so I look forward to you finally answering the question I've placed at the top of the post in bold for you :)

[shira]

123. Answers to all your questions

Now you are, here's the question again: 'Im not sure why you think yr personal ranking of what's worse than something else matters at all. It doesn't. It doesn't even make sense. I'll ask you the same question you didn't answer from my last post: 'Also, shall you be disassociating yrself from anything that the Israeli govt supports, seeing as how the govt contains bigoted extremists? Or will you return with a 'but they're absolute saints compared to...' response? If you do, can I ask for the list you use to make yr ranking of sainthood, and where on that list you draw the line and where it becomes acceptable for you to associate with bigots?

I oppose anything the Israeli gov't does that I feel is not in the interest of peace or good for all Israelis and I trust genuine peace organizations like PeaceNow and OneVoice to hold the Israeli gov't responsible for its decisions and actions. I don't pretend that bigots within the Israeli gov't are peaceniks when evidence proves they're not. There are degrees of nastiness, however, so I don't see any problem making comparisons between vulgar Israeli officials and Hamas officials who by word and deed are magnitudes worse. Not all bigots are equally disgusting as I'm sure you'd agree Nazi bigots are worse than bigots who are too ignorant or stupid to know better but generally mean well nonetheless. I don't find it acceptable to associate with known bigots who are deliberate in their words and actions (when ignorance and stupidity cannot be used as an excuse for them).


I'll just copy and paste what I've already said, seeing you aren't reading any of it:

'No, I don't have a problem with one of Amira Haas's friends being involved in the PFLP. How does that make her a 'big fan' of the PFLP? And her writing's been 'discredited' by zealoted 'supporters' of Israel, which gets a big yawn from me, and has nothing to do with yr false claim that she's a 'big fan' of the PFLP. And I'm not sure what that link you posted was supposed to prove, unless you think extremist settlers in Hebron are the font of all truth. And more than anything, where on earth do you come up with 'irrational hatred' out of her reporting eyewitness accounts of an incident? That's just bizarre...'

But you believe Itamar Marcus is a nasty bigot based on his alleged friendship with Pamela Geller (which you're reluctant to prove and I suspect you have no evidence of friendship b/w the two whatsoever). Based on that logic, Hass must be a hateful bigot too b/c she has a friend involved in an organization dedicated to killing Jews based on nazi-like hatred. You're applying a hypocritical double standard. Prove somehow that Marcus and Gellar are friends and then you'll have something we can discuss further.

Further, Hass was busted on tape. No matter how nasty Hebron settlers may be, she lied about them in a big way, was busted, and then fined. The case was open and shut based on video that proved her allegations to be completely bogus. Her defenders couldn't even help her out as the proof was so overwhelmingly against her. This proves her hatred every bit as much as any journalist who would do the same to make up nasty shit about Hamas. Hamas is about as nasty as it gets but making up disgusting crap about them proves without any question that hatred is the motivation. I suspect if I lied and made up ridiculous shit about Hamas you'd label me a bigot for doing so. Am I right?


and

'Whatever logic it is that you use when arguing is totally foreign to me,

I use facts and you just dismiss them, as you did the Dutch Journalists' accounts of a boat backed by Hamas, or flotilla activists who promote and support genuine antisemites.

I show you how you employ hypocritical double standards and in response you just ignore and move on to other (usually silly) side issues.


and you appear to place far more importance on minor issues and individuals than I would. I'd also suggest to you in future that if you want to convince anyone but yrself and fellow travellers of what yr saying, it would help to not use extremely partisan and one-sided 'pro-Israel' sources

We both use partisan and biased sources. I don't see a problem either way.

The issue is honesty and accuracy. Your sources lack that and I've asked you multiple times to show how the sources I use are not honest and accurate. You have failed to do so.


and demand that I prove to you what's wrong with them. Yr supposed to be convincing others, not the other way round.

No, the way to show my sources are bullshit is to provide evidence or proof of such. That's what I do with your sources. I don't ask that when you use a source you prove that they're reliable and credible. But that's what you want me to do and that's just silly.

I'd also suggest you start reading what yr linking to carefully when claiming things you link to support yr argument. There's been a bit of foot-shooting in a few of the links you posted, which could have been avoided if you'd read them before posting them.'

Thanks for the tip!

I figure even though you've said several times now yr bailing out, you'll be back again, so I look forward to you finally answering the question I've placed at the top of the post in bold for you

I just find this fascinating and that's why I'm continuing.

Let me know if I've answered everything...

[Violet_Crumble]

124. No, you didn't answer my question at all...

I asked you one question. All you did was return with a 'they're absolute saints compared to...' response. My question was: 'If you do, can I ask for the list you use to make yr ranking of sainthood, and where on that list you draw the line and where it becomes acceptable for you to associate with bigots?'

What did you not understand when I said 'let's not'? in the other post? Because you appear to have totally ignored it. While it's quite a feat for you to copy and paste what I said, you totally ignore what I said when you reply as though I hadn't said it. I told you that 'if you want to convince anyone but yrself and fellow travellers of what yr saying, it would help to not use extremely partisan and one-sided 'pro-Israel' sources and demand that I prove to you what's wrong with them. Yr supposed to be convincing others, not the other way round.' So what do you respond to those words with? 'No, the way to show my sources are bullshit is to provide evidence or proof of such.' and 'I've asked you multiple times to show how the sources I use are not honest and accurate.'. Clearly you didn't understand any of what I said to you...

[shira]

125. I'll try again...

I asked you one question. All you did was return with a 'they're absolute saints compared to...' response. My question was: 'If you do, can I ask for the list you use to make yr ranking of sainthood, and where on that list you draw the line and where it becomes acceptable for you to associate with bigots?'

It's difficult answering that question when we're unable to agree on what a bigot is, wouldn't you agree? I mean, you don't believe the FGM/ISM people are bigots for promoting Gilad Atzmon or sanitizing Victorio Arrigoni, both vicious antisemites they're not at all ashamed to associate with. I don't have any list for ranking to answer your question. All I can do is compare bigots like those people to others who just say bigoted things but are either too ignorant or stupid to know any better. Then there are the ones who are bigots but wouldn't go so far as the two bigots mentioned because unlike those perverts there are others who are really against Hamas' "right" to violence against innocent Jews or against senseless Israeli violence against innocent Palestinians. I'm assuming you believe all bigots are the same and so long as someone has a negative view of someone else (like 95-98% of all Palestinians having negative views of Jews) then those people are just as bad as Nazis. I don't see it that way. I can't honestly say all people who have negative views of Jews are just as bigoted and nasty as Nazis. I can say Nazis are much worse and that truly non-violent bigots (not the ones who just say they're for non-violence) are saints in comparison.

Now do you believe all bigots are the same or do you have some list where you rank them?

What did you not understand when I said 'let's not'? in the other post? Because you appear to have totally ignored it. While it's quite a feat for you to copy and paste what I said, you totally ignore what I said when you reply as though I hadn't said it. I told you that 'if you want to convince anyone but yrself and fellow travellers of what yr saying, it would help to not use extremely partisan and one-sided 'pro-Israel' sources and demand that I prove to you what's wrong with them. Yr supposed to be convincing others, not the other way round.' So what do you respond to those words with? 'No, the way to show my sources are bullshit is to provide evidence or proof of such.' and 'I've asked you multiple times to show how the sources I use are not honest and accurate.'. Clearly you didn't understand any of what I said to you...

I think I understand that you believe that neither of us should ever use partisan or biased sources to prove anything, is that right? The problem is you use partisan/biased sources every bit as much as you accuse me of doing. But like I said previously, I don't have a problem with that as much as the integrity and credibility of the source. I don't believe partisanship/bias is a bad thing but that willful or blatant dishonesty definitely is. So we disagree, right?

It appears we just disagree on these things, but it's not as if I'm not answering your questions...

[King_David]

90. Majority . yes

[shira]

91. Well it appears she doesn't think there's even one. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

93. Yr failing on the mind-reading again....

Or yr not comprehending what the exchange is about. You made blanket accusations involving all the participants in the flotilla despite knowing nothing about most of them. Questioning you on that does not mean that in doing so I'm 'appearing' to believe no-one's a 'hatemonger'. Like you, I know nothing about most of the participants, but unlike you, I don't make sweeping judgment calls without having the knowledge to back up what I say. And after seeing you go on to specifically claim that Amira Haas is a hatemonger because she wrote an article about the PFLP that was about the way Hamas was abusing its members, I doubt very much that many people at all would agree with you on how you define that someone is a hatemonger...

[shira]

97. Do you have any problems with anyone in particular on either flotilla the past 2 years? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

98. Of course I would n/t

[shira]

101. Can you please identify at least one individual on either flotilla you believe is problematic...

...and state exactly what is problematic about that person?

Thanks.

[Violet_Crumble]

103. No, I can't. I've already told you I know nothing about many of them...

I'm assuming there's bound to be some I'd have problems with.

[aranthus]

116. Good.

Let's review some basic concepts.

1. Hamas is at war with Israel.
2. Hamas either fires weapons at Israeli towns or allows those within its control to do it.
3. Israel has a right to defend itself, including trying to prevent Hamas from acquiring weapons by blockading Gaza.
4. The current set of blockade runners have been organized in part by Hamas, as a propaganda stunt.
5. So the blockade runners are working for a party to the war.
6. If you actively take sides in war, you're subject to the possibility of violence.
7. By preventing the sailing of the flotilla, the blockade runners have been stopped without violence.

That's good. Please stop pretending this was all about "humanitarian aid." Sending supplies was merely a cover for the political operation. Israel had every right to stop it before it got started, and if the Greeks want to co-operate with Israel instead of Hamas, that's great.