As a Michigander, I have a question:

[placton]

why is Indiana so right wing? This Daniels thing against collective bargaining, the election results, etc. You folks elect some Dems, but the tendency seems more like the Deep South than the Midwest. Wassup?

Wanted to add: Michigan has become Mich-issippi over the last 15 years, so we are not much better - but seem to still have some lucidity left.

[naryaquid]

1. Being from Illinois, I wondered that too...

[kcwayne]

2. Indiana IS deep South

in its thinking. It is much more similar to Kentucky and Tennessee than it is to Michigan, Illinois, or Ohio.

It was the headquarters of the modern Klan movement back in the 1920's, and that legacy still shows in some of the population.

If you were dropped without bearings or a map in Southern Indiana and asked someone a question, you might well conclude that you were in Georgia or Arkansas based on the accent alone. And when you hear the spewing of right wing talking points, you would be convinced you were in Alabama or Mississippi.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. Historically, it was primarily settled from the south, not from the east.

So the cultural ties are more aligned to Kentucky and Tennessee than to states east of it. Southern Illinois is much the same way. Lincoln's family migrated from Kentucky, I think it was, along with a great many others in the 1840s. IIRC, they briefly stopped in Indiana before moving on to Illinois.

Not sure of the reason for that migration pattern.

[LiberalFighter]

30. Try this for reason of migration pattern...

Think about where the first capitol was located in Indiana.

Consider the counties as they were formed.





Corydon located in Harrison county was the first capitol. Located along the southern border just 25 miles from Louisville KY. Near the Ohio River.

Indiana did not magically have all 92 counties when it was authorized by Congress. The counties were formed in the south and then worked northwest and finally west.


But that was in Indiana's early history. Possibly if the population was researched we might find that the southern part was more heavily populated until the early 1900's. The automotive industry possibly brought about the migration from the south from Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi and other southern states. Even now there is still migration from Kentucky to the northern part of the state.

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

4. Yep, we're backwards...

Like other states, Indiana is a mix of attitudes and backgrounds. Many of my family's ancestors arrived here from the South (Kentucky, Tennessee), where they were recruited by major auto manufacturers to come north and work in the factories in cities like New Castle (Chrysler) and Anderson (General Motors). I watched through my childhood as auto towns like Anderson went from boom to bust. When my Dad went to work for GM in Anderson in the early 1970's, there were over 13,000 UAW employees in Anderson. GM is gone now and the union hall was forced to sell the building and move into a pole barn on the outskirts of town. Those who could get other jobs (young, willing to move, etc.) left the state for better opportunities elsewhere. The remaining population base is aging and afraid. And we all know that scared folks will continue to repeat the same old patterns (like voting a straight Repub ticket, for example). The Dems here are "closet dems", many afraid to speak out because the backlash against us is so ingrained. We carried Marion County for the Dems, but it wasn't enough. We were out-marketed by well-run Repub campaigns who are great at getting their message out in force to the media, most of which is Repub. owned.

[HoosierClarkie]

6. Welcome to DU!

:)

[Voltaire]

7. That is the most perfect description

of Indiana politics I ever saw. I live in Indy, a transplant from Philadelphia 8 years now and I have never seen anything like it.

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

9. I've read you for a long time...

and always enjoyed your posts, Voltaire. Coming from you, that is a real compliment. I am humbled, sir - Thanks!

[HoosierClarkie]

5. Indiana

has great colleges, but people do not stay here. It seems to me that people get educated here and then leave. We have never progressed past the good old boy mentallity. Masked as "small town values" when actually it is nothing more than small mindedness. It is very disheartening, but die hard dems are still fighting the good fight here. I often wonder what it would be like to be a democrat and be in the majority. In Indiana there is no such life. Even Dems here seem to be fake dems. (Evan Bayh) :(

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

8. Thanks...

for the welcome, HoosierClarkie. I've lurked on DU for a long time, but never had the courage to post until we lost Kephra and I witnessed first-hand the "real family" of DUers.

I agree we do lose too many grads to other states. And, yes, there are some "fake Dems" in the bunch. But there are also some really quality Dems here, too. I worked with the late Harrison Ullmann of NUVO Newsweekly, and he agreed that where we stand as Dems is often a lonely place. When you challenge people to really define their "values" by having them actually put them into words, they can't do it because they have never defined them for themselves. I moved away for a couple of years to the big city, and really noticed the small mindedness more upon my return. And I became less tolerant of it!

[izzybeans]

10. This story seems to be a common one in

Indiana. I know a bunch of Dems in the southern part of the state who would say the same thing. I think I'm going to point them to this board so they perhaps can find some local linkages to ease the pain a bit.

[Sadie5]

11. I live in Avon

just west of Indy and the number of new Dems would surprise you. When we moved out here years ago it was solid Repig, but in the past four years those numbers have changed what with job losses and foreclosures. It takes a few at a time but soon more will join us.

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

13. Wayne Township is active, too...

We've got a great club on the west side; the United Wayne Township Democrat Club has over 100 members and meets monthly. Being in a like-minded crowd can be a real lift to the spirit. Is there a similar club in Avon? Know you're always welcome in Wayne Township...
And hang in there - Avon IS changing

[LiberalFighter]

12. I didn't know that Harrison died...

I read NUVO a few times... but didn't he have a political report too?

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

14. Sadly we lost him...

Harrison passed just over three years ago. Worst diabetic I ever met, but that man knew how to tell a tale. And we had an old fashioned Irish wake for him at the Brew Pub as a send off. I kept expecting him to walk in and yell "Stop the Presses!" He loved to do that. NUVO has published a book of his writings, available on their web site. My favorite quote: "I don't give a damn if you're a Republican or a Democrat - if you're doing something to hurt this State, I'm gonna tell people about it!" Man, do I miss him; he would be roasting Mitch on a spit about now...
The political report you're thinking of may have been The Howey Report, written by another former NUVO staffer (there's a lot of us out there...) Brian Howey. He also worked with Harry. Howey still publishes his report, I hear.

[LiberalFighter]

15. I thought Howey wrote for the Journal Gazette previously

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

17. I believe his Dad

was also in newspaper publishing, too. I've lost touch with Brian since our NUVO days. We used to joke that working for a liberal newsweekly in Indiana was like painting a big target on yourself; NUVO staffers were regularly pulled over by IPD, we had our offices broken into and ransacked prior to printing an anti-Goldsmith expose, etc.

[Voltaire]

16. I miss Harrison as well

The best part of my week used to be running out to find a NUVO to see who Ullman was going to skewer this week. For an out-of-towner like I was at the time, it was a great education on how things really run around here. Still read NUVO but I sure miss him.

[thinkingwoman]

20. Isn't the "fake dem" Evan Bayh...

the person who gave those collective bargaining rights to state workers that Daniels just cancelled?

[salin]

21. The push from the right in the eighties to make Indiana a right to work

state - and attempt to break most (not just state) unions... is what pushed my quite socially conservative brother-in-law to avow to not ever vote republican again. Due to his strong social conservative tendencies - he has been more prone to vote third party (eg Pat Buchanon back in 2000) than democrat - but the GOP lost his very reliable vote. Personally, I believe that push, along with the moderate and attractive and name recognition is what first allowed Evan Bayh to transcend the gop lock at the state level. There has been decline in Union membership and in manufacturing jobs - so a strong push to pick up trying to deunionize the state might not have the same backlash that it had fifteen or so years ago... but then again- many hoosiers, even those prone to respond to scare tactics (eg the Hill race in the 8th) can be quite pragmatic from time to time so there just might be some payback that starts swelling...

[thinkingwoman]

23. I'm afraid you're right

about the backlash being smaller because the manufacturing base has been virtually destroyed.

It's a mixed bag down here re: unions. Some people are traditionally for them but still vote Republican...it's very odd.

[salin]

25. But in the eighties they were not quite so reliable

for statewide and federal level (congress - NOT president - never seems to generalize up to that level) gop votes. My theory, based on my b-i-l is that was partly due to active threat against unions in the early eighties. As that threat grew more distant and less in memory... folks became more reliable again for the GOP at most levels. Over push from the state GOP again, and there is a chance of a back lash (done quietly and only behind the voting booth curtain) once again.

[HoosierClarkie]

38. My point was

that Bayh is liked by the Republicans in this state and that is kinda scary. :)

[shrike]

32. I know more than a few young people who would love to stay

But they simply can't find jobs that suit their educations.

Indiana is doing such a disservice by not trying to keep its young people.

BTW, I'm a transplant to NWI and like it very much.

[liberalpragmatist]

18. Indiana is a combo of Midwestern Conservatism and Southern Conservatism

The southern part of the state is like Kentucky. The Central and Northern parts of the state were always Republican b/c they were Midwestern Republican/Conservative, similar to much of Ohio, Southern Illinois, Michigan outside of Detroit and Eastern Wisconsin. The central/northern part of the state is Conservative but less evangelical and "Southern" - people tend to be Lutheran or Catholic quite conservative but not with the zeal of Southern Baptists.

Also Indianapolis isn't large enough to be a major Democratic area. Michigan and Illinois would be like Indiana were it not for the large urban areas. Indianapolis isn't big enough. It's a medium-sized, moderate city, but relatively conservative for a city and the city's elite is dominated by business leaders. Many are big business cronies although a lot are old-style Main Street Republicans. (There's a lot of Indiana old money) and the will support some moderate business-friendly Democrats like Evan Bayh and Indianapolis Mayor Bart Peterson. However, while Kernan was well-liked he was done in by Mitch's support by that business elite which despite liking Kernan wanted to go for one of their own.

[salin]

22. I agree with everything you write... but one thing

I think that if the economy had been more visibly strong (it is recovering - but was really hit hard pre 9-11 - in part by tax policies in DC, an escalation of outsourcing and then by the slowdown that followed 911) - I think the business elite in Indi would have backed Kernan. I also think they would have backed him had a more "radical" republican (like McIntosh - see how quickly he was talked out of running again?) had run. To the business elite, the didn't see Mitch as part of the radical bush admin - they saw him as one of their own... back to his Lilly days. Wonder if he follows the bushwing policies just how long they will be loyal to him...

[thinkingwoman]

24. good point salin

Indy biz does see Mitch as one of their own and that went a long way toward getting him elected.

Down here in the Mississippi part of Indiana something else happened too...the economy is not recovering at all down here. We've got counties with unemployment levels twice the federal level and higher and people are suffering.

Many people who would have traditionally voted Democrat voted Mitch out of desperation for a change, any change. I talked to people who expressed profound disappointment that Kernan offered no real plan to help them out of their hell and voted for Mitch simply because he was not the devil they knew.

[salin]

26. Like you,

I don't see Indiana politics as all that reliably red - we are complex and very pragmatic. Seems at times (all due to current context) folks are more or less receptive to outside influence of fear-mongering (eg the influence of politicized pulpits - which in some more rural parts of the state seems to be - at times - quite a strong influence). How it plays out in four or six years, in my mind, is really hard to predict.

Btw, while our final assessment of Bayh may very (I think we both look at him with a ledger of plusses and minuses where you may end with a slightly more positive bottom line than I - we seem to both recognize that he can be a bit of a mixed bag... with both positives and detractions existing... but heck - isn't that true of all politicians...?)... I always enjoy our exchanges. Thoughtful assessments with both an overall state view- and with very different local experiences/contexts to share which helps to understand this rather complicated political climate in Indiana (which is a lot more complex that the all red assessment so often described by nonhoosiers).

[thinkingwoman]

27. your posts are a delight

for me...it's wonderful to talk to a fellow Hoosier who really understands what this state is like (north, south, and central).

It's frustrating here (and everywhere) sometimes because Indiana's negatives seem to get the most play and then the whole state is painted with that broad red brush.

I often think (dream, fantasize...) that Indiana could go blue in any given presidential election if the right Democrat came along.

This is not to say, of course, that there was anything wrong with the Democrats who ran for president over the decades when Indiana has gone reliably red. But, as you point out so eloquently, Indiana is a mixed bag and so is our population.

Things are coming to a head in this state that could lead to surprising election results in the next decade. As the manufacturing base falls off to nothing and the overall economy continues to shift, Hoosiers lose big time if all else remains equal. This state has to come to grips with the enormous challenges we are faced with.

Those challenges, and the fact that neither party is actually addressing them for us at the state or federal level, will wake up those pragmatic Hoosiers who tend to carry on with their lives and leave well enough alone. When they do wake up, things will move, or lurch, and it will be interesting to see what happens then.

As for Bayh...I think you and are closer than we sometimes sound to others, and even to ourselves. I think he represents the line between the ultimate pragmatist and the ultimate idealist in you and I and while we fall on opposite sides of that line with Bayh, we're actually standing right next to each other.

I also think Bayh is at his crossroads now. He has done, at the state level and now the federal level, what he has had to in order to get where he wants to go. Now he has to stand up and show us what he is made of. He wants to run for president. Whether he will run as a Democrat or a Repub-lite remains to be seen. He doesn't need to pander anymore (as all politicians do at one point or another in their careers) so we'll see the real Bayh when he begins to run. I think. I could always be wrong about that. ;-)

[salin]

29. Interesting assessment...

My biggest issue with him since going to Washington has been that he has moved a bit further right than he used to govern - and his popularity has been so strong at home that it seemed less due to his "needing to stay true to the red state" as much as political calculation which goes on with those who aspire to even higher office.

Personally, I think that his allegiance to Bush on budget (no longer the fiscal conservative) and the war (he was attesting on tv, long after david kay returned from iraq stating there likely were never wmds in Iraq, that indeed he (Bayh) still believed that wmds would be found) may have gone too far to pass muster in the future on the primary front - which would be ironic in that I also believe those very stands were taken and held due to political calculus to set him self up positively for that primary gauntlet. Will we see the real Bayh when he begins to run? That would be nice - as I had believed that the real Bayh was the sensible centrist (even if those weren't my exact politics) - but my cynical eye has come to suspect that the pandering is perahps the real guy - an opportunist. If my cynical self is right, than what I think we will see is how acute his political read has been and will continue to be (is his pandering, really in the direction that will be effective or will he go the way and fizzle of Lieberman last winter?) I do think that you are right - in that how he acts in this coming session will be very telling as to which way he will run. He did come through several times in the past year (foreign relations excluded, imo) - on medicare and energy issues. How will he go when things like "tax reform" and social security "reform" are thrown onto the table will be interesting. I will happily eat my words if he goes the party and "loyal opposition" route. Interesting times ahead, indeed...

[thinkingwoman]

31. I sometimes think

he has multiple personalities. I cannot, for the life of me, reconcile his positions on various causes, many of which you mentioned in your post.

I also agree with you that his shift right has nothing to do with needing to please constituents and everything to do with making convenient and opportunistic political calculations. It would be so nice if politicians would talk to real people more often and stay in touch with what we all think.

I fear, truly, that he may be on the Lieberman track, but I guess we'll see which Bayh is the real Bayh soon enough.

Oh, btw, on the WMD front...I continuously feel like I live in bizzarro world in this country but the latest WMD stuff takes the cake doesn't it? Bushco's people call of the search and a nation full of idiots still think they were there all along. It's truly mindnumbing. I can feel my brain cells melting as I try to process it all.

[suziedemocrat]

34. Kerry wrote off Indiana completely.

Didn't have any staff at all here as far as I know. Wasn't worth his time - in his opinion. I think Indiana is red almost by default - democrats are no-shows. Bayh is more middle of the road than some horrible Zell Miller or something. I've heard both Bayh and Lugar criticize the Bush administration when I didn't really expect them too. Sure - I'd prefer Boxer to Bayh - but I like Lugar better than Lott. Indiana is not all that bad in my opinion. I've lived all over this country and even in two countries in Europe. There are much worse places than Indiana. Better places to be sure - but also worse places. And this is from an astrology-reading, vegetarian-eating, peace-core-joining, hippie wannabe. The thing that sets Indiana apart is the extreme self-hatred!

[izzybeans]

35. good point on the self-hatred thing

[shrike]

36. Try Rhode Island

I lived in Rhode Island and now live outside Chicago, in Indiana. A lot of Hoosiers are self-hating, but RI takes the cake. I used to get the third-degree from RI residents as to why I, an outsider, would move there. A few even suggested I needed psychiatric help.
Funny thing is, RI has a lot to offer. Nice beaches, great architectures, top-shelf colleges (Brown, RISD), some good restaurants, Newport, and Providence has even spiffed itself up in the last few years.
I like Indiana. There are more interesting places to live, but my COL is low enough that I can travel when I need to get away. Nice people, enough things to do (Chicago's so close). I've had fun in Indianapolis, too.

[shrike]

33. NWI has enough Chicago influence

to be Dem. More people crossing the border to live here every day, bringing good and bad things with them.

[BiggJawn]

19. Because...

We got stuck with all the hillbillies and rednecks whose cars and trucks wouldn't make it to Detroit where the auto industry jobs were.

And I miss Ullman, too. Dan Carpenter WISHES he had the freedom Harrison did.

"The World's Worst legislature". He sure nailed 'em with that one!

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

28. House of Bubbas...

Harrison loved to call them the "House of Bubbas!"
Yep, Dan has that first amendment envy, thanks to the Star's out-of-town owners, Gannett. Saw Gannett ride into Richmond, IN's Pal-Item newspaper, telling the city "we're your white knight, here to save the local daily." What a crock! They managed to drive the weekly into the ground, then tripled the ad rates once the weekly died. Thank God NUVO's local owner is keeping the liberal press alive. Glad NUVO's managed to hang in there, despite the Star attempt to kill them with "Intake" magazine.

[suneel112]

37. not all Indiana is like that

In my town (West Lafayette, IN), there were lots of Kerry/Edwards bumper stickers, and most of the smart people in my school were Kerry supporters. Purdue helps us a lot (diverse professors who know how to think), but it also hurts (dumb $h!*s from central indiana going to get "Enjuneerin'" degrees from Purdue). I know this because I am on a FIRST robotics team, where high school students cooperate with college student "advisors" to build a robot. I can say that most of the HS students are liberal (and supported Kerry), and that the advisors are split 50/50 (a friendly guess). One such advisor wanted to stop Social Security (I was going to tell him "Don't throw away your future income.").

I did, however, have one incident with a neighbor when I put up my Kerry/Edwards yardsign. She was against abortion (after having four children) and for the Iraq War, and said how bush helps people like her. I tried convincing her of the state of the economy, of foreign relations, etc... but she was so blockheaded. She was the kind of person you need a louisville slugger to put any sense into. I realized that day that there is no way in heck the state of Indiana will be blue, but it is not totally red either.

[salin]

39. welcome to DU, suneel112

I grew up in the "rival college town" that always had a more liberal reputation than your current digs. Would agree with much of your assessment, though I have to admit that I wouldn't go so far as the Louisville slugger urge - would rather go for periodic conversations about a range of topics.... planting seeds - and additional frames of refernce for her has the news keeps flowing out of Washington that doesn't always support her world view....

Have a relative at your school, he too described a liberal presence on campus, and he didn't feel isolated supporting the Kerry/Edwards ticket. That is a good sign - glad to hear it repeated by you here.

Again, welcome to DU!