What do you think of Evan Bayh?

[iwantmycountryback]

Is he a good moderate Democrat or is more like a DINO?

[AIJ Alom]

1. Good moderate Democrat, perfect for Indiana.

[salin]

5. er... unless you are in Indiana

please don't tell us that he is perfect for us.

He was very centrist as Governor, and during his first two years as senator.

However, he lurched to the right after Bush's election. We now hold our breath on each major GOP pushed bill... will he Zell on us (which he has done with much more frequency than other "moderates" in the senate)... or will he stand firm? He is very popular here, and has not needed to lurch right. Heck, his rhetoric on Iraq is to the right of our other senator, republican Lugar. Both are safe seats. Explain, why, in late spring/early summer he was telling us on television that even though WMDs hadn't been found (and David Kay had reported that they not only were not there, but had NOT been there before the war) he KNEW that they were there and it was only a matter of time before they were found. He didn't say that to "appease" Indiana - only those who are not Hoosiers tend to say such silliness which is easily countered in the more cautious approach of Senator Lugar.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

23. Look

He's left when you consider the opposition is composed of the likes of Dan Burton, John Hostetler, or Marvin Scott. We're not going to get Kucinich elected with all the bible country in the state. All of Bayh's responses are carefully tailored for an anticipated run at nationwide office. That's the fact of the matter and to be honest I don't mind the center right now in the face of Jerry Falwell and the gang with no brakes in the federal government.

[salin]

25. lol not a good argument

there is a whole lot of gray area between Kucinich and Bayh. LOL as if it is ony one or the other.

He has moved from the center to right of center in the past 4 years - he was NOT right of center as governor, nor in his first 2 years in the senate. You are right - he is moving past the center to the right due to his ego-driven national aspirations.

I never said that we would rather have senator burton (Which would NEVER happen - the business folks who RUN the state level gop NEVER support the rightwing loons - Coats was a fluke who got backing AFTER he was appointed to fill the seat... he KNEW he had no backing when Bayh was planning to run and so Coats "retired". Why? He lost the backing of the state money to Bayh.

Why did O'Bannon win a second term against McIntyre (?)? He wasn't particularly popular... but the rwing won in the primaries and the monied folks decided to back OBannon.

But back to the original question - is he a centrist or a DINO? I think he WAS a centrist and is now lining up to be our next Zell. I don't trust him. He moved farther to the right than he has ever been before - even though he had already won 6 straight state-wide elections (starting with sec of state.)

[VTHoosierPatriot]

27. Not a sound argument

You criticize my comparison then proceed to compare him to Zell Miller. My question is what the fuck is your strategy? Support the Republican candidtate and shit on the only Democrat that people in the state recognize? Where are you going with this?

[salin]

29. am responding to the original post of the thread... bayh centrist of dino

and gave the reasons I would have said centrist in 1999 but now say dino. The thread wasn't about strategy. I no longer trust bayh - and felt he was already going zell when in late spring early summer he was on tv saying that WMDs DID exist in Iraq and just had yet to be found... but with no other choice I voted for him. But that wasn't the question of the thread... it was just dino or centrist. I say former centrist... trending towards dino. Opinion.

But if you want a strategy? Let Bart Peterson continue to impress the political powers that be in the state... if he continues on his current path and the state-wide office of his choice will be his with little effort. He is a slightly left leaning centrist who is much more intelligent and politically savvy than bayh. Ever want to see a second dem senator... i'd put my money here... and he'd be a much better senator and represenative of indiana. He doesn't view indiana as a backwards state that needs to be pandered to - and folks - across the aisle - respond positively as a result.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

32. I agree Peterson's great.

The Zell comparison based on one issue just doesn't sell with me, and I think there's room in the state to support two Democrats.

[hippiechick]

58. Bart's better than Evan, BUT

... he's a shameless opportunist and something about him makes my skin crawl. Can't put a definition on it just yet, but I think Bart would be as much of an ass-kisser to both sides in DC as Evan is.


:hippie:

[VTHoosierPatriot]

62. No offense intended,

but I was curious as to who you do like?

[David Dunham]

2. We need Bayh and all the other Dem Senators we can get.

[Rowdyboy]

3. He's not the man his father was, but, on his worst day, he beats the

best Republican in the Senate. I'd vote for him.

[Hippo_Tron]

19. I don't think that he beats Lincoln Chafee

But yea I guess every other Repuke senator.

[LiberalFighter]

42. I vote for him for Senator but NOT campaign for him for president

In fact I would campaign HARD against him.

[salin]

6. Are you a hoosier?

we still vote for the man due to lack of alternatives... but he often appears to hoosiers to be the next Zell Miller - watch him carefully - he has moved quite a bit to the right since Bush was elected. He is no longer the fiscal conservative/moderate democrat who was first elected to the office of Governor in 1988. The best thing about him - was he reinvigorated a long-term trend of ticket splitting that had begun to get rusty after his father was beaten by Dan Quayle in the Senate a few years before his first election. Like W, Evan is perceived by many hoosiers to be a pale comparison/follow-up to his father.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Only a non-Hoosier would say that "we need" Evan Bayh

That's one Democrat I won't be voting for this Election Day!

I wish we had someone like former Congressman Andy Jacobs in the Senate, now that's a Democrat with a capital "D"!

[luxpara]

12. I meet Andy Jacobs as a kid

My dad took us to DC and we had lunch with him in the congressional cafeteria. Cool guy!

[IndianaGreen]

14. Andy Jacobs is now teaching at IUPUI

He is a great guy! I last saw him a couple of semesters back when he came over and spoke to our poli-sci class.

[Metatron]

17. I took a class with him a few years ago

It was great!

[indypaul]

15. Totally different set of circumstances

Jacobs tenure was entirely with Democratic majority and
even then he had some difficulty with fellow Democrats.
Under present circumstances Bayh doing fine, don't agree
with him on his support of all "tax cuts" particularly
the estate tax position. How can they do anything with
it when they cannot even refer to it by its proper name?
If the estate tax can be nick-named the "death tax" then
we should all refer to the national debt as the "birth tax."

[Johnny 99]

16. Not a bad idea

"Birth tax," I like it.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. Disagree, any dem senator we can get in red states is truly worth it...

I'm in a similar situation (I live in Louisiana). Mary Landrieu is decent, and I guess that she is more liberal than Bayh, but not much. This year we had a choice between Chris John DINO or Republican David Vitter. Chris John is an ass and when Vitter ran ads about him being in the pockets of washington lobbyists, those were some of the few GOP ads that I agreed with. But Vitter is worse, he's a puppet of the national GOP and behind closed doors he's suppoasedly pretty racist and homphobic. Chris John wouldn't pull a Zell Miller because Louisiana still has a lot of dem voters who will vote for a moderate/conservative democrat and would be outraged if he went over to the GOP. In the end we got stuck with Vitter and one more senate seat for the GOP making them that much closer to getting their thugs on the SCOTUS. We need people like Evan Bayh, if for nothing else, to maintain fillibusters. If we kicked Bayh, Lieberman, etc. out of the party then the Republicans would have over 60 seats in the senate.

[IndianaGreen]

43. Then you take Bayh

We can do better than to vote for a watered down Republican just because he has a "D" after his/her name.

Nothing will change unless we change our voting habits!

[thinkingwoman]

21. wrong

lifelong hoosier here who supports evan bayh.

I respect your right to dislike him, but don't say only a non-Hooiser would support him. That's silly.

You would have preferred "Dr." Scottt? Or some other republican? Please.

[IndianaGreen]

44. I would have preferred a real progressive, Green or Red

to a GOP-clone!

[thinkingwoman]

46. yeah, well...

let me know when one runs against him.

Indiana Republicans don't put up anyone serious against him for one reason and one reason only--they know he is well liked and supported by a majority of his constituents.

[diamondsoul]

48. I'm with you, Salin, in a BIG way!

I lost all respect for Bayh recently. He's refused to meet face to face with the wife of a soldier to discuss depleted uranium and that is highly offensive to me.

I kept wishing some Dem would run against him even though I know they won't. I voted Libertarian against him because he's infuriated me so much. I knew he had it in the bag so I felt safe adding to the Libertarian numbers in that instance.

[thinkingwoman]

50. Do you have link or source for this?

I'd be very interested.

[diamondsoul]

51. I'm the spouse he refuses to meet with.

No media source, for now but there will be if I'm not satisfied with the response we get.

[thinkingwoman]

52. that works for me

Have you approached any Indiana newspapers? Would you mind telling me what part of the state you are in?

I own a weekly and may be able to put you in touch with a friendly reporter if you are near a paper that I'm familiar with.

[peacetalksforall]

4. Thumbs down...very poor defender of Democrats - friendly to repub

causes and agendas.

[IndianaGreen]

7. He is a puke!

I won't be voting for him! Bayh became a Republican when he moved to the Beltway. He is not his father!

[kmla]

8. He's kinda lukewarm, in my book.

Yeah, he's a Democrat, but he tended to change his vote to reflect the popular political winds. Even if those winds were eminating from the ass of George W. Boosh.

He is NOT the man nor the Senator that his father was. Not even close.

Let's hope he gets his head on straight. I'll vote for him, but I will have to hold my nose while doing it. And that's a shame.

[Johnny 99]

9. He has a (D) next to his name

So he'll get my vote. I just wish he'd start taking a firmer stand on some issues. He could be a shining star, but he seems to be more interested in being all things to all people instead.

[IndianaGreen]

47. I think that's a "D" for dickhead behind Bayh's name!

To vote for a candidate solely because he has a "D" is as bad as what many Hoosiers do when they vote for a candidate just because he/she has an "R" after the name.

If we want politicians to fight for our issues, we better start voting for those that will fight for them no matter their party label.

Let's inject some real choices in our elections and break away from the bipolar partisan mold.

[BiggJawn]

10. Still strong on the Enviroment, a DINO on everything else...

Gets BIG bucks from the drug industry, so whatever Eli and Pfizer wants....

He ain't his father, that's for DAMN sure!
But I gotta vote for him...

[luxpara]

13. A little Indiana geography....

Anyone here around 31 years old that went to N. Central or Broad Ripple high school? I live here in CA, and I always run into Hoosiers out here.

[skooooo]

18. He's really a republican.

[Khephra]

22. There's only one Democrat that appears on Faux as much as Lieberman

Guess who?

He's another one of those Democrats who can't stop saying "I support the president!" and he means it.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

24. Outside of Gary and Indy,

you're in Fox country. Hoosiers like their guns and bibles and tend to vote with both of them. It is unfortunate that they tend to vote against their economic interests on the basis of these issues, and it's hard to discuss foreign policy with someone that thinks Sierra Leone is an actress and Qatar refers to someone in a cafeteria line (not to mention believing that the Taliban worked with Saddam and up is down). I vote for anyone I think will keep Ken Starr and Ashcroft from being a Supreme.

[salin]

26. says the hoosier in exile

you forgot Monroe County. Also in the 2003 local/city elections dems picked up council seats all over the state - in a few cases there were historic shifts from repub control to dem control. Things are not quite as simple, nor black and white as you suggest.

Are you sure that Evan would keep all these guys off the Court? I'm not. It would depend on his political calculus at the time and his fear of being tarred by the GOP as a "obstructionist"... Yes, Evan's lurch to the right has made me quite cynical.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

28. LOL Forgot Nothing

Kerry won by 4,000 votes in Monroe which is miserable considering it is home to the largest university in the state. Bayh wouldn't support the two fascists I mentioned even in the current bizarro world of the DNC. I'll be home in a few, sweetheart. I leave for a few months and look what happens...

[salin]

30. and yet.. he was pushing the lie of bushco in the early summer

after Kay came back and said different... that the weapons of mass destruction WERE in Iraq. He has done quite a bit of aiding and abetting to this administration - at times taking a stronger stand than Lugar. I believe it is all about his national aspirations and his calculations about what is most "sellable". Thus... if he thinks not being cast as a bush obstructionist is in his bigger political calculus favor... a vote for Ashcroft is not out of the realm of reality. I don't recall... how did he vote on Ashcroft's last nomination... I would guess that it was still early enough in the bush administration that he hadn't yet lurched right... but I could be wrong.. he might already have a track record on that front.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

31. Thanks for agreeing with my earlier observation.

He's planning for the executive run. I disagree that because he supports Iraq that he is now a right wing pawn. There are still major differences in his voting record as compared to republicans.
P.S. Bayh voted against Ashcroft's confirmation, but Russ Feingold voted for it. Has Russ Feingold ventured too far right as well?

[VTHoosierPatriot]

33. Hope to see you at the airport since you love checking for IN IDs

[salin]

35. er... you discussed it during the elections

and you have chosen a username that sorta implies it.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

36. Er..I'm talking about your other enlightened posts here.

"Er...unless you are in Indiana."
"Are you a hoosier?"
Say what you will about me, i just didn't like your attempts to stifle discussion through these comments.
But I'm sorry, your arguments definitely lead me to believe Bayh would vote to appoint Joseph Goebbels to the Supreme Court.

[salin]

39. No, I don't think any of the issues that I used

to explain why I don't trust him quite as you do, have anything to do with Goebbels (I think I cited his work nearly stopping corporate governance /transparency reform, actions before the IWR vote, and inconsistency on fiscal/budgetary/tax cuts issues.) Those were used to explain why I think his larger aspirations have led to a type of political calculus - esp pushing past center/right at times that lead me to believe that he if he believes the "political calculus" suggests he should support bush on x or y issue (including some nominations) I think that he will follow that calculus - party be damned.

My concerns about him being "the next Zell" - were well in place, and expressed, prior to Zell's ridiculous performance at the republoican convention... thus I do not intent to imply that I think that Bayh would ever do that. Certainly he has more composure and self-respect than that. But instead I refer to Zell's increasingly predictable support for Bush policies over the dem line in the senate. I realized after posting that my comparisons between the two could be 'read' as refering to convention Zell. I never intended to do that. But instead to the Zell of the senate who became increasingly less likely to vote for the democrats. Though I think that Evan's reasoning for possibly doing so is very different than Zells.

My comments per Indiana refer to years on DU of people rationalizing Bayh's votes as necessary for being elected in Indiana. That isn't true - at least his lurch right hasn't been needed. Have been condescended to over that point by people from other regions so many times that I guess that I have developed a "quick trigger" response that is as dismissive as the argument I thought that I was reacting to. In fairness to you, with exception of the kucinich comment (and there are a heck of a lot of degrees between say a far right dem and a far left dem), you have not stated his actions were necessary for this reason, and agree with the bigger picture motives (attempts to position self for larger office).

You just appear to have more faith in Senator Bayh - in terms of how far he would concede to bush pushes - than I. Please know that I hope that your read is more accurate than mine.

Peace.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

40. I agree that some of his votes are unfortunate,

but at this point, as you realize, I'm desperate to see any shred of electability (I hate that word but with our media...). I don't feel that he has went with Bush on issues where he has acted as a tie-breaker or consensus builder but rather is taking advantage of opportune moments to jockey a position as a potential candidate. All of these votes that can be insignificant at the time always play a key role in making senate members unelectable for the Oval. I also just pray the current pandering to Fox is to steal some votes among those mouthbreathers, or I mean those who live and die by that GOP outlet.

The Goebbels comment was meant to reflect appointing fear-mongering propaganda artist such as Ken Starr and Ashcroft to prominent spots in the judiciary. I feel like we're on the fast track to economic collapse or at least pre-New Deal legislation and court rulings.

In conclusion, I'm just looking for a way to get out of the far right, and given our current situation I'll forfeit some of my beliefs rather than cling to all of them and lose. I just fear having another so-called "regular guy" who shouldn't have a job pumping gas terrorizing the "free" world and destroying our country.

[salin]

41. see... even when contentious... if we talk long enough

we come to understand the other view (and get less contentious) and hit on the ultimate agreement. I couldn't agree more with the last part of your post. We may just disagree on how to get there - and that's okay as long as we are both working towards that (not having another so-called "regular guy"....)

I'll be waiting for you back here.. we need you here. I have spent the last 20 years in and out of my homestate - and never regret the time away (in metro dc, detroit, and no cal) as I bring back more insight each time and see our state with greater and greater perspective - after I have reoriented myself (it has always taken me a little while, when I return, to readjust to being a hoosier.)

Again,

Peace.

[salin]

34. More than that... big reversal on fiscal conservative roots he had

as governor when he voted (repeatedly, I believe) for the tax cut packages that vastly inflated the deficits. He would not have done that as governor. There are smaller issues on which he moved right - and in my eyes has done so not because he needed to to hold onto support in Indiana, but because of aspirations. I just don't trust him anymore. The WMD talks was just the latest.

Remember he, along with Lieberman and Gephardt, were part of the Rose Garden announcement before the IWR vote that immediately collapsed all senate work to add amendments - work that Lugar and Hagel had been very active with. These would have added "strings" to the invasion making a higher bar required (like... letting the inspections go on longer). That action that was much stronger than simply voting for the resolution, along with his recent support for Bushjr's Deficit Increasement plan (aka More taxcuts), is what really called my attention to his lurch. Oh, and then after Enron there was his and Zell (the only two in the senate) obstruction to the corporate reform bills... wanted to give loopholes to allow corps to use the same company for auditing AND business advising (a big problem leading to Enron getting so bad)... he and Zell stopped the legislation - and were it not for the second round of implosions (ala world com) and the renewed push for action... he and Zell would have been successful.

He gave voice to being open to the Cheney inspired energy bill were it not for one provision... in the end he voted the right way, but he gave signals that he was open to corporate raiding in the name of bushco energy, and I look for him to support it in the next round. I could be wrong, and in the end he voted against Lilly and pharma on the medicare prescription drug bill... I gave him credit for that at the time and will continue to do so.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

37. ????

So the democratic line is now fiscal conservatism? I didn't know that. Well, he did vote against the Same Sex Marriage Amendment, against Unborn Victims of Violence, for stronger media ownership rules, against an increase of mandaory minimums, but I don't feel like having a vote by vote pissing contest with an in depth analysis of his bipartisan "signaling" accomplishes much here.

[Jokerman]

38. Fuck him and the donkey he rode in on.

I grew up with Evan Bayh. My parents were friends of Birch and Marvella and worked for Birch every chance they got.

Evan's support of the Bush regime and their murder of tens of thousands of people make it impossible for me to ever vote for him again. I scratched my ticket last time around and voted libertarian for senate.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hippiechick]

49. DINO

Think, Dan Quayle - pretty boy with an empty head and a stuffed shirt making a living off the family name.

Dances for the audience. I am summarily unimpressed by him.

Reminds me alot of Shrubby, actually - an image with no substance.


:hippie:

[Voltaire]

53. What do I think of Evan Bayh?????

I'm trying not to.

[Bzzzz]

54. Evan who???

Seriously though, where's he been? He's become too much of a fence sitter and I hoped for more from him.

[FtWayneBlue]

55. Ft Wayne Journal-Gazette reported he called for Rumsfeld's

resignation today. Now if we could get him to agree to challenge the Nov 2 presidential election results............ but I guess I'm dreaming on that one.

[IndianaGreen]

56. I'll take Russ Feingold over Bayh any day!

Unlike Bayh, whose record has the DLC stamp of approval, Feingold has a record that is worth noting. Feingold was the only Senator to vote against PATRIOT Act, and he broke ranks with his Democratic colleagues, including the 2004 Presidetntial Democratic nominee, by voting against the Iraq War Resolution.

I'll take Russ Feingold over Evan Bayh any day!

The following Commondreams article is a beaut:

Published on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
How to Vote for Peace, Against the Patriot Act, and Win Elections
by John Stauber

Only one U.S. Senator had the courage and the commitment to civil liberties to vote against the Patriot Act in the weeks after the terror attacks of 9/11. Pop quiz, quick, name that Senator! If you said the late Sen. Paul Wellstone, you'd be wrong. Even the feisty progressive from Minnesota failed to oppose John Ashcroft's attack on civil liberties sold as essential to fight Bush's war on terror.
The lone opponent of the Patriot Act was Sen. Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, Wellstone's colleague across the Mississippi River.

Fast forward to the fall of 2002 and the run-up to Bush's war on Iraq. Democratic senators, including Hillary Clinton, Tom Daschle, John Edwards and John Kerry all voted to give President Bush the authority to attack Saddam Hussein. Russ Feingold voted against the war. I spoke at the time with a Feingold staff member who worried that these two votes would doom Feingold in his 2004 race for re-election. "We'll be bashed viciously as weak on terror and anti-war, they'll trash us mercilessly and it will cost Russ his race."

Probably just what advisors to Kerry and Edwards were thinking. Indeed, Feingold's 2004 opponent Republican Tim Michels, a millionaire construction company owner and a former US Army Ranger, beat three Republicans to win his party's nomination. Michels dumped over a million dollars of his own money into an aggressive advertising campaign skewering Feingold as weak on terror and not supportive of the troops. However, when the polls closed at 8 PM on November 2nd, with no votes even counted yet, all the major media declared the race over and predicted Feingold's victory based on the exit polls alone.

John Kerry voted for the Patriot Act and the war, and was barely beating George Bush in Wisconsin. Russ Feingold proves that an anti-war, populist Democrat, a maverick campaigning to get big money out of politics, can win and win big. But given a choice between a real Republican and a Democrat such as John Kerry who voted for the war, many voters will choose the Republican.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1103-25.htm

[hippiechick]

57. Uh ... you know you have Feingold's pic on a 'Bayh' titled post ?

:shrug:


:hippie:

[Metatron]

59. I think its the signature picture now that we have sigs back.

But, I could be wrong!

[IndianaGreen]

60. I found the Feingold picture inspirational

a picture of Bayh would have triggered a major barf event.

[hippiechick]

61. True, but my brain cells shorted out there for a minute ...

:silly:


:hippie: