Baldacci proposes puffed-up cigarette tax, fewer superintendents

[Maine-ah]

http://knox.villagesoup.com/Government/story.cfm?storyID=84687

AUGUSTA (Jan 5): Gov. John Baldacci released his budget Friday calling for a reduction in the number of school districts and superintendents to 26 by July of 2008. He also proposes a $1 a pack hike in the cigarette tax – giving Maine the highest tobacco tax in the country.


Under the governor’s plan the local school boards currently involved in the management of the state’s 292 school districts would be either phased out all together or reduced to advisory capacity, replaced by 26 regional school boards. They would work with 26 regional superintendents, down from the current 152.

The plan also calls for increasing class size from the current average of 16 in the middle school and 15 at the high school to 17 for both. That would mean fewer teachers and help achieve the $250 million in savings over three years that Baldacci is promising in his school district consolidation plan.

[quispquake]

1. That's pretty...Intense...

After the near passage TWICE of the Property Tax laws the past couple of elections, he has to do something...the question is, will Maine settle for less services, for the decrease in Property Taxes? With a child in High School here, this is something to ponder...I agree something needs to be done, but am not sure if this is a bluster (here ya go...you want to save $$$ on property taxes, here's a way), or if it's his way of shutting up the property tax reduction proponents...

I saw him interviewed, and since with term limits he's in his last term, he said he's going to be VERY aggressive getting things passed the next four years...

[Maine-ah]

2. I'm not impressed with this plan...

cutting education is not the way to go, imho. not that I have a different answer, I wish he did though.

[high density]

3. I think the school district consolidation is good idea

This is a fairly small state population wise and we just don't need all of these administrative folk. Though I do say that as a person who doesn't have kids in the school system, of course... I don't know how do-able the class size/teacher idea is. It sounds like something that probably works on paper but doesn't work when you try to implement it. (Baldacci seems to like things like this.)

I'd actually like to see the laptop program end... I'm a computer geek and didn't see the value of a laptop when I was in college, let alone middle or high school.

[Deep Thinker]

4. WOW - this is bold

Governor Baldacci showed real leadership today with his budget proposal. He tackled some very tough issues and Maine people should support him. Even the Fox guy gave him a lot of credit today.

The school issue is going to be tough because people will be afraid that he will close schools. Cut administration and invest the money back into the classroom. If he can pass this budget, he will leave Maine in a lot better condition than when he took office.

Go Guv!

[Shorebound]

5. Some good ideas

I don't go along with the plan to increase class sizes -- that sounds like a bargaining point to me -- but slicing administration swounds like a great plan as long as it works as offered. It does no good to go from 292 school districts to 26 if the 26 superintendents' offices are packed with administrators who make as much or more than the superintendents they're replacing. I see the Maine Superintendents Assocation is already trotting out the fear tactics -- they're claiming consolidation will mean closing schools, busing children long distances, ending football programs (gracious me!). This should be about closing superintendents offices, not schools. That's where the savings will come from.

[207guy]

6. About time!

So much for the fiscally conservative Maine Republican Party. Still bowing to the (expensive) "Local Control" alter! Amazing, they're willing to support these bureacrats over educators, etc. The world is turning upside down!

[Deep Thinker]

13. I have heard Republican leadership supports this

Josh Tardy was on the Fox guy's show and said he thought this was a good idea. He said the details need to be flushed out, but on the surface, he liked it. I think he also called it "the republican idea for the last decade" or something like that where they could try to get credit.

The Fox guy praised the Governor over and over for this plan. He said republicans need to get on board or get run over. I was really surprised at that.

Governor Baldacci showed real leadership yesterday. I am proud of him and I am proud that I worked for his re-election. He proved yesterday that he is the right man with the right plan for Maine.

[luckyleftyme2]

7. JUST A REMINDER

FOR SOMEONE WHO SLAMS ME TRY SPELL CHECK =SOUNDS

[Maine-ah]

9. if you can't be civil, I'd rather you left.

Don't bring in crap from other threads. If you have a problem with another poster, talk to the mods. I would rather not have to alert on you. And please, can you stop yelling?

[Maine-ah]

8. average class size is 15/16 students right?

so what is it going to do to the schools that have average classes of 25-35 students when staff gets cut?

[Shorebound]

10. Cuts

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the proposal, but isn't the plan to cut administrative positions rather than front-line staff? If not, then I agree that something should be built in to protect schools that already have large student-teacher ratios.

BTW I've seen the proposal described in numerous news articles, but does someone have a link to the official version that lays out the details?

[MaineDem]

11. This is the budget website

http://www.maine.gov/budget/budget_information.htm

[Maine-ah]

12. .

"The plan also calls for increasing class size from the current average of 16 in the middle school and 15 at the high school to 17 for both. That would mean fewer teachers and help achieve the $250 million in savings over three years that Baldacci is promising in his school district consolidation plan."

[high density]

14. I'd say those schools are probably not going to face cuts??

It seems like there's going to have to be an amount of micromanagement in this part of the proposal... There's no way a broad slash of teachers would work.

[Maine-ah]

15. the other end of the stick

is how many people are going to lose their jobs?

[luckyleftyme2]

16. class size

perhaps it should be no greater than 20; 15,16 is way low.also many classes are now being taught via video!
there is no doubt the school system is top heavy with administration!
GO GOV.!

[Shorebound]

17. Attrition?

Given the number of teachers who are at and appproaching retirement age, perhaps those job losses can be covered by simple attrition rather than pink slips. The losses would be more obvious in district superintendent offices, I assume. But if the goal is to cut costs, some job losses are inevitable.

MaineDem: Thanks for the link.

[luckyleftyme2]

31. some

Many of those who will lose their jobs are doing duplicate work.(or little work)
I worked for a small company who had 2 peopLe doing the payroll.They subbed it out at half the cost and let two go.If it happens in real world shouldn't it happen in gov't.THIS IS PRACTICED BY MANY COMPANIES TO DAY IT CREATED AND EFFICIENT COTTAGE INDUSTRY.

[4bucksagallon]

18. Why go after the smokers again, they don't cause accidents on the highways

Drunks do, why don't they raise the hell out of the liquor and beer taxes and see if they can get some of these lousy drivers off the roads.

[Maine-ah]

19. I have to agree w/you on that.

[Dirtman 1]

20. Have to agree

While I agree smoking isn't the smartest thing to do, smokers are already taxed more than their fair share. Besides, I thought the Governor was talking about tax relief rather than adding more taxes.

I also have a concern about his property tax proposal - Freezing valuations of property does not necessarily mean "tax relief". Property taxes are determined by multiplying the property valuation by the mil rate. For a home valued at $100,000 and a mil rate of $18/$1000 valuation the taxes are $1,800. If the value is frozen at $100,000, but this mil rate increases to $20/$1000 valuation, the taxes will be $2,000 ($200 increase). If the mil rate stays the same, so do the taxes (ie: no relief).

The only time this could provide relief is when the municipality does a revaluation. Remember the ruckus last year in Auburn and later in Lewiston? The reason for all the upset folks in those Cities was the cities had delayed revaluations for a number of years and when it finally was to occur, the increase in property valuations were staggering. The proposed valuations were very likely correct, but the increases were so dramatic and the impact upon individual property tax bills was so significant the uproar was deafening. If valuations were frozen, then this would not occur as long as you owned your home, but this also means the guy who bought a home just like yours just down the street from you may have nearly the exact same property you have but he could be paying twice as much in taxes. Does this sound fair?

Perhaps a better way is to dramatically increase the homestead exemption. By doing that everybody owning a home would be treated the same. The business community wouldn't like it much as commercial and industrial properties would be paying more to make up the lost revenue from residential properties. But generally speaking, business owners are homeowners too.

Just some thoughts...

[Shorebound]

21. Property value freeze

I have to agree with the reasoning Dirtman offers. I understand completely where the governor is coming from with this idea. After all, how many times have we heard about the elderly widow who can no longer afford the taxes on the waterfront home she has lived in all her life because the value has risen so high? But there are some unintended consequences if you think it through. I've also seen comments that it would seriously harm home values when the time came to sell, as well as hurt the real estate industry. All in all, this needs some serious thought and vigorous debate before it becomes law. Perhaps increasing or revising the Homestead Exemption is a better answer -- rather than make it a flat figure, make it a percentage of value?

[4bucksagallon]

22. Why can't maine have a two tiered property tax.........

Those who come to our state just to have a "vacation home" would be taxed at a rate that they obviously can afford to pay, those of us that reside in the state year round would pay a lesser mill rate. Fair is fair and these flat landers that come here just to enjoy our state can stay home (wherever that is) as far as I am concerned if they will not pony up and pay pay pay. I am sick of seeing these million dollar homes come into our state by people from "away", it just raises everybody's property tax. I would rather have a maine that others look at with envy and "wish" they could live here than these damn outsiders like the ones on the fox channel morning show Ray and Ted (the sumo boys), who by the way look like they could afford to spend a little less on food, and more on other things like taxes. I have no problem with taxes just tax those that can afford to pay which would be the outsiders.

[Shorebound]

23. Two-tiered tax

I've heard that one of the Canadian provinces -- Prince Edward Island? -- taxes the property of year-round residents at a lower rate than part-time summer residents. Here in Maine I suspect we would run into Constitutional issues, perhaps the equal protection claus, but I'm no attorney. Any lawyers on the board who can comment?

[mile53]

29. Two-Tiered Tax Is Not Constitutional

A two-tiered tax plan has been discussed before and it is generally regarded as unconstitutional.

[Dirtman 1]

30. Change Constitution

I believe that is what the Governor has in mind.
To make his proposal work, I believe a state constitutional amendment would be required.

[luckyleftyme2]

27. SEARCH THIS OUT

In the past few years the business community has shifted over 80% of the tax burden to the populace!
Here in is one of the major reasons for the property tax dilemma

[primavera]

32. Smokers are easy targets

So they end up paying for everything from schools to roads to urban renewal projects; any project you can imagine but don't want to pay for can be financed by upping sin taxes. In Japan, they're at least honest about it: the government has a monopoly on the sale of cigarettes and they actually market them quite actively because it's a huge source of revenue. Here we cast smokers as war criminals and then proceed to balance the budget on their backs, it always seems a little hypocritical to me.

[Maine-ah]

24. .

http://knox.villagesoup.com/Education/story.cfm?storyID=84770


The 26 school districts essentially would mirror the regional vocational education schools already serving the state.

There would be administrative districts centered in Madawaska, Caribou, Presque Isle, Houlton, Calais, Machias, Ellsworth, Bangor, Lincoln, Dexter, Belfast, Rockland, Skowhegan, Waterville, Augusta, Bath, Brunswick, Lewiston, Farmington, Rumford, Oxford, Bridgton, Portland, Westbrook, Biddeford and Sanford.

Those district would include:

Region 7 in Ellsworth encompassing Prospect, Verona, Bucksport, Orland, Otis, Mariaville, Waltham, Eastbrook, Ellsworth, Franklin, Sullivan, Gouldsboro, Steuben, Winter Harbor, Hancock, Surry, Blue Hill, Trenton, Lamoine, Penobscot, Castine, Brooksville, Sedgwick, Brooklin, Deer Isle, Isle Au Haut, Stonington, Swans Island, Frenchboro, Tremont, Southwest Harbor, Mount Desert, Bar Harbor, Cranberry Isles.

Region 11 in Belfast encompassing Troy, Thorndike, Jackson, Monroe, Frankfort, Knox, Brooks, Freedom, Montville, Waldo, Searsport, Stockton Springs, Belfast, Swanville, Liberty, Morrill, Searsmont, Belmont, Northport and Unity.

Region 12 in Rockland encompassing Washington, Appleton, Hope, Lincolnville, Islesboro, Camden, North Haven, Vinalhaven, Waldoboro, Warren, Union, Rockport, Rockland, Cushing, Thomaston, Owls Head, Friendship, Saint George, Matinicus Isle Plantation, Criehaven Township, Monhegan Island Plantation and South Thomaston.

District 16 in Bath encompassing Dresden, Alna, Nobleboro, Damariscotta, Bremen, Bristol, Edgecomb, Wiscasset, Woolwich, South Bristol, Bath, West Bath, Arrowsic, Newcastle, Phippsburg, Georgetown, Boothbay, Boothbay Harbor, Southport, Westport and Monhegan Plantation.

Region 17 in Brunswick encompassing Bowdoin, Bowdoinham, Topsham, Brunswick, Freeport and Harpswell.

Region 18 in Lewiston encompassing Turner, Leeds, Litchfield, Minot, Auburn, Lewiston, Greene, Wales, Mechanic Falls, Poland, Durham, Sabattas and Lisbon.

Region 22 in Bridgton encompassing Stoneham, Stow, Lovell, Fryeburg, Sweden, Bridgton, Brownfield, Denmark, Porter, Hiram, Naples, Casco, Raymond, Baldwin, Parsonfield, Cornish and Sebago.

Region 23 in Portland encompassing New Gloucester, Pownal, Gray, North Yarmouth, Cumberland, Falmouth, Portland, South Portland, Cape Elizabeth, Long Island, Yarmouth and Chebeague Island.

Region 24 in Westbrook encompassing Standish, Windham, Limington, Westbrook, Gorham, Buxton, Hollis, Scarborough and Frye Island.

Region 25 in Biddeford encompassing Saco, Old Orchard Beach, Dayton, Arundel, Biddeford, Kennebunk and Kennebunkport.

Region 26 in Sanford encompassing Newfield, Limerick, Waterboro, Acton, Shapleigh, Alfred, Lyman Lebanon, Sanford, Berwick, North Berwick, South Berwick, Wells, Ogunquit, York, Eliot and Kittery.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. My dad said they tried this back in the 40s/50s and started the SADS. It didn't

work then and it won't work now.

[207guy]

33. The good old days?

Can't imagine trying to afford an education system pre-Sinclair Act...all 495 municipalities having their own school system. Insane.
This is an idea whose time has come.
Can't say I agree with Baldacci much, but on this issue he's right on.

[Maine-ah]

34. welcome to DU!

:hi: nice to have another ME'R on board!

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. Any other teachers or teacher spouses int his forum?

[luckyleftyme2]

28. NEW TAXES TO CONSIDER

I think an increase on liquor would help ease the burden as well as stiffer fines on drug use. Its obvious jail time isn't the solution ;otherwise why is marijuana the largest money crop in the usa?
IF JOHN DOES SON OR DAUGHTER WAS FINED 500 BUCKS WHEN HE/SHE GOT CAUGHT WITH A JOINT AND
DAD REFUSED TO PAY THE FINE. THESE KIDS COULD PAY THE FINE AT MIN. WAGE WORKING IT OFF
ON SAT. AND SUN. DOING COMMUNITY LABOR.
There is always painting,sweeping ,cleaning that needs to be done in schools,town offices etc. and this would save the local and state gov.t. money.

[Maine-ah]

35. Two other school consolidation plans emerge

One calls for using the 26 districts referenced in Baldacci’s proposal — currently the state’s vocational/technical school regions — as planning districts, where locals can come together and propose what school administrative functions should be consolidated.

The other calls for collapsing the current 290 districts, with their 290 school committees and 152 superintendents, into slightly fewer than 65 districts, with 3,000 to 4,000 students each. Districts currently about that size would be left alone.

http://knox.villagesoup.com/Government/story.cfm?storyID=85192

[luckyleftyme2]

36. WOULDN'T IT BE WONDERFULL

Wouldn't it be wonderfull if the republicans entered this debate with a helping hand instead of the spoilers,bitchers and stallers they've been for the past 50 years. Especially since they have been squealing like stuck pigs about overhauling the school system.
Of course the standard reply from a republican is fine as long as it doesn't effect me.
LETS BE HONEST,if your 50 or older you had more than 15 kids in a class room. unless you went to a grade school where their was three rooms and 9 classes.
when I went to high school I was in the first class that didn't have a choice of which school administration to go to. You see a couple of repukes made a deal that saved the town some money by guarnteeing anothertown to recieve all their students. THIS GROUP STALLED A NEW HIGH SCHOOL IN MY TOWN FOR 20 YEARS MORE OR LESS.
NOT THAT IT MATTERS TO YOU, BUT IT GAVE ME GREAT JOY TO BE THE SURVEYOR THAT SURVEYED THE LOT THAT THE NEW SCHOOL SETS ON.
IT ALSO GAVE ME GREAT JOY OVER THE YEARS TO DONATE MY SERVICES TO HELP CONSTRUCT SEVERAL ATHLETIC FIELDS FOR KIDS IN THIS TOWN.AS WELL AS OTHER TOWNS.
It is possible to cut down on administration and not hurt the school systems product.which is to give our children(in my case grandchildren) the best education we can afford.
my advice is if you have a representaive who seems to be more of a hindrance than a help to change,(which is needed) get all over him/her. use the media if you have to. yes there should be discussion,but also positive input and we all can tell stall from go foward.

[high density]

37. "Locals propose what functions should be consolidated"

I don't think that's going to work... Especially in towns that neighbor places like Camden or Cape Elizabeth...