Bush supporters on the bus in St Louis this morning.

[ikojo]

I get on the bus every day at 5AM to go to work. There are usually around ten other people on the bus. This morning I got into a discussion (shouting match) with a right-winger and another guy (a black guy) who support Bush....They gave the following as their reasons:

White guy: Middle aged kind of frumpy
-Kerry is rich (this guy said he's richer than Bush)
-The Democrats have no integrity: when pressed he couldn't really answer this)
-The Democrats claim to speak for the worker when they really don't care for working people at all. The Republicans! care more for working people than the Dems. When I remarked that Bush had taken overtime pay away from people he repeated Rush's talking points that only a few people were affected...not that it was WRONG to do so but that since it only affected a few people.
-Kerry was only in the reserves and not the regular military during Viet Nam and had only spent one day in the hospital.
-Democrats divide people into classes. We are one country and not all these classes. Democrats tell people they can't do whatever they want and achieve whatever they set their minds to (even though more and more studies show that the class one is born into is the class one dies in...the myth of class mobility is just that, a myth.)
-Bush is smarter than people give him credit for. After all he went to Yale.
-Kerry is an idiot

Black guy: Middle aged (over 50) wears a uniform to work.
-Kerry is rich
-The US is at war and his nephew is in the military. The American people will not want to change commanders in chief during a war.
-Kerry has pulled out of Missouri.
-It is no problem that Bush has had everything handed to him because the job this guy currently has was handed to him (he drives a truck!)
He had visited relatives in the south (Mississippi) and saw nothing but Bush/Cheney 04 signs in the yards of big farms.
-Edwards has spent too much time in small towns. He doesn't care about the small towns. Why isn't Edwards coming to large cities?
-Kerry is an idiot. He definitely is not Bill Clinton.

Oy vey! These people take PUBLIC transportation and are supporting Bush! I tried to outshout the right-wing white guy but it sure was difficult. He refused to listen to reality. I then started saying, "you are on a BUS and you are voting for Bush!, it makes no sense. Thanks for voting against your class interests." To which he replied he has no class interests because there is no such thing as class in the US.

Oy vey iz mir! These two guys are exactly the kind of people the Dems should be reaching out to but clearly have not connected with these two.

There is supposedly a Kerry meeting at the Starbucks in Clayton this evening. I will attend and state my concerns to the people there. I think Democratic outreach to working people has been lacking as is seen by these folks. I don't give credence to anything these two guys said but the fact that THEY believe these things should be of concern to people doing outreach for the Kerry campaign.

Thankfully there were some on the bus who agreed with me. There was a 21 year old woman who tried to "talk" to the white right-winger but he was having nothing of it. She had seen F 9/11 and said it was the most enlightening movie she had seen. She has an understanding of social class in this country that's for sure.

Mods: I am cross posting this in the Missouri forum as well. I hope to elicit some comments from people all over the US. Please do not delete.

[rfranklin]

1. These guys are not supporting Bush because of logic...

A black person supporting Bush. It's like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders. (I think Al Sharpton said that.)

But, seriously, it is frustrating because they are Bushbots because of EMOTIONAL reasons. White guys are usually sucked in by the bluster of Bush's "bring 'em on" approach to the world. And Bush and the Republicans covertly push the "white men are the bosses" who can dominate women and people of color. So, I understand the white guy going for Bush. I cannot, for the life of me understand the black guy--unless he thinks he's white.

[SheilaT]

2. I likewise have difficulty being articulate

and convincing when trying to persuade working class Bush supporters that they're opposing their own self-interests to vote for Bush or any other Republicans.

I think that when dealing with people like these you need to first hit them with the facts, and second simply drop such arguments as the social class one that these two guys simply didn't get.

You should have calmly stated that Kerry was NOT in the reserves, but in the regular army. He served TWO terms in Vietnam and came home after four months of the second one after being wounded three times. He VOLUNTEERED for Vietnam and further VOLUNTEERED for the swift boat service.

You could attempt to point out that not changing commanders in chief in wartime is perhaps ordinarily a good notion, but in this case we were misled into illegally attacking another country because of lies and forgeries on the part of this administration.

Listen, I'm going door to door because I'm running for office, and in my case I need to try to avoid just such confrontations. I get people telling me that health insurance is readily available and those who don't have it simply are deciding to spend their money on frivolous things instead of health care. I get people who think the tax cuts to the rich are perfectly okay, but that their own taxes are too high and simply do not see the connection. It goes on and on. I always stand my ground, which is sometimes pretty unnerving to these people, especially to middle aged men who do not expect a middle-aged woman to be this willing to stand up to them.

Possibly the most effective thing to say to these kinds would be to ask the "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?" And if they say yes, say, "Oh, really?"

Or talk about the fact that pay and benefits have been cut to the military. That too many of our soldiers in Iraq don't have body armor. That so far over 1000 (I should be keeping track on a daily basis, but I don't) soldiers have died in Iraq and at least 6,000 (I think it may actually be upwards of 7,000) soldiers have been wounded, with many of those missing limbs, permanently crippled.

Obviously your two bus-mates watch Fox news, probably to the exclusion of any other news sources, and as I'm sure you already know, those are the most ignorant, least informed people of all.

But thank you for trying to enlighten two people, even if you didn't succeed.

[raccoon]

6. Bravo to you, Sheila, hope you win the office

One thing you said regarding the general public REALLY hit a raw nerve with me. Many people are so ignorant, I mean, misinformed.

"I get people telling me that health insurance is readily available and those who don't have it simply are deciding to spend their money on frivolous things instead of health care"

Individual medical insurance costs an arm and a leg, doesn't cover a lot of things, and some people can't get it at any price.

See this thread about individual medical insurance:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x1242#1248

[Ganja Ninja]

3. It really is impossible to to get these people to face reality.

In a way they deserve what they will get if Bush wins 4 more years. Arguing with them is a waste of breath. It only seems to stiffen their resolve not to face facts. The country will probably have to suffer a repeated number of catastrophes both economic and militarily before they pull their heads out of their asses. Even then I'm not sure they won't find some twisted reasoning for blaming it all on liberals.

[demnan]

4. There will be a certain number of people

who can never be reached because they will not think for themselves. Right wing radio relieves them of this task so they vote greatfully for those who have done their thinking for them.

Remember the Star Trek with the planet where everyone said, "It's the will of Landreu?" That's what you're dealing with here.

[RazzleCat]

5. Brainwashed

Some persons are just brainwashed. They wear blinders and won't take them off. Stupid, Stupid, foolish people.

[usregimechange]

7. Don't yell, treat them with respect, plant seeds.