Oregon ballot measures

[Uncle Sinister]

1st, hope you all are planning on voting all the way down the ballot. Lots more at stake than President and Senator. Here's my take on the statewide ballot measures.

M56: YES, YES, YES! This will get rid of the hateful "double majority" clause that has allowed non-voters to kill a measure by NOT voting. Measure 56 simply allows other measures to be determined by the voters who actually vote. Hugely important. Vote YES then arm-twist your neighbor to vote YES.

M57: NO! Increases mandatory minimums for a wide range of crimes, reduces discretion of judges, and promises treatment for drug offenders with no provision for funding. NO!

M58: NO! NO! NO! In a nutshell, it kills the ESL programs in our schools that have been proven to help immigrant children learn English. Por que? Yo no conozco.

M59: NO! NO! NO! Another Bill Sizemore tax break for the wealthy. Would reduce state budget by about 2 billion$. Average break to richest 1%=$15,000. Average break to middle 50%=$1 that's right, one dollar break for most of us. Kill this bill.

M60: NO! We've killed this once, we need to kill it again. It's "performance pay" for teachers. Net effect will be that teachers in wealthy districts will be paid more than teachers in struggling districts. My mom was a teacher, she's spinning in her grave. It should be just the opposite.

M61: NO! NO! NO! NO!@#$%$&* way! One of the worst mandatory minimum bills I've EVER seen. This would explode the state budget, destroy the lives of relatively minor offenders, and has exactly zero provisions for drug treatment, mental health treatment, or education (all of which have been PROVEN to reduce both crime and recidivism). ps...it has no funding provisions, and could cost up to 2 billion per year. That does not include new prison construction that would be needeed.

M63: NO! Yet another loophole law for developers to circumvent environmental regulations.

M64: NO! NO! NO! This would hamper public employees or contractors ability to contribute to political campaigns, while doing nothing to control the huge influence of business PAC's. Yet one more attempt to stifle citizens at the expense of businesses.

So, in a nutshell, YES on 56, NO WAY IN HELL on every other statewide ballot measure.

That is all.
</rant>
Richard

[quakerboy]

1. I am really looking forward to my ballot arriving

so that I can vote no on everything with Sizemores name attached. And Manix's

on 63: Don't forget that it is just as much a way to circumvent safety regs. Who the fuck wants their house falling down on them next time it rains a little too heavy?


Talk to me about 57. all I know is what I glanced at quickly in the voters pamphlet that arrived yesterday. From a quick glanceover it looks intended to preempt measure 61(which seems good) and to increase drug treatment(which also seems good)

[here_is_to_hope]

4. If you are worried about your house falling down in a heavy rain, I suggest you dont

work on it yourself.
As for me and mine, I am fully capable of determining what is safe and what is not-its my house.
Fucking nanny staters here in Oregon, just too much.
Check out who opposes 63, no one but the very people who stand to lose money!

I dont care for Sizemore, never have but I have also felt firsthand the affects of so much regulation, its bullshit.

[quakerboy]

5. The short version

is that I have done some electrical and construction work, and I don't think that plumbing would be much harder. I could build an addition or alteration to my home and I would trust it more than the rest of the preexisting house, because I have a strong inclination to over engineer things. But most people hire a contractor who will do it as cheap as possible.



The longer version

There are 2 problems with this bill. Overconfident individuals, and contractors.

My father is a recently retired engineer and he went through this shit almost daily, contractors wanting him to sign off on substandard work. Now they want to make it so they don't even have to find a friendly engineer willing to take responsibility. This means we go from Bad to Worse.

And while you may feel yourself capable of determining what is safe and not for your house, most people know jack shit about making sure stuff is made safe and secure. Given how many people I run into daily who can't manage basic math and logic, why would I think they could manage basic engineering? And I don't want to be the poor sucker who gets the house after someone who thought they were smarter than they really were.

I am sorry you disagree, but this is an echo of the deregulation that lead to our current financial issues. I have absolutely no desire to have a similar result built into our physical homes, ready to implode in a decade or so to the detriment of all.

Plus, when it comes to cost... If this passes, it will cost you and me. It will drive homeowners insurance through the roof, because the insurance companies don't trust unregulated contractors and private individuals work any more than I do. And because they know it will cost them more, they will pass that on to All Oregonians.

[here_is_to_hope]

7. So because "most people" dont know jack shit

those that do know jack shit get to pay for it?

Why, that sounds like the few suffering for many.
No thanks.

I cant see any homeowner 'messing' with gas lines, can you?
Its alright to have to get a permit to move an electrical switch
in your own home?
Build a deck?

I have built houses in Montana and Oregon...
When we finished the Montana house, we had the city guy come out and have a look
at what we had built, strawbale, off the grid, solar, compost toilet, water catchment, gray water storage and filter.
"Simplicity at its finest" to quote him.
And zero permits.
Its still there after 14 years with ZERO issues.

In Oregon we had to have the County guy come out 11 times...
What should have taken us 2 months to build actually took 8 months, with waits up to 4 weeks for him to show up.
It not only raised the cost due to $16,000 in permit fee's, we lost materials to the weather because we could not stucco when we needed to-we were waiting for him to 'inspect' what we were going to live in.
He always found something, anything, and if we questioned him, he shut us down.
Never mind that he had never heard of strawbale construction nor living roofs.


One needs to look at who loses if it passes, the Counties and Cities, money, and lots of it.
Its like paying someone to beat you.

Fucking nanny staters..."I cant so you cant either!"

If you feel safer in 'permitted' structures, fine.
Make the permit system free and you will have me in your camp.
Till the, you renters get to pay more in rents.
And you homeowners get to pay more due to the people who dont know "jack shit'.

[quakerboy]

8. Yes, unfortunately

First of, hell yes I can see a homeowner messing with gas lines. When I was a kid, living in Colorado, we had to evacuate the neighborhood for exactly that reason. One of my friends dads was tinkering with shit in his basement, and messed up the gas line going to his furnace.

I am glad you are confidant in your own building skills. It sounds as though you are competent in what you do. But the issue of this particular measure is not whether there needs to be some reform and improvements in the permitting process. Nor is it whether you can move an electric switch. I also note that the measure refers to 35k, and given that you needed 16 in permit fees, I doubt your project would have been helped any by this legislation anyhow.

It has nothing to do with "I can't". Ive grown up around it. I Can. So could my dad. So could my uncle. But my drunken grandpa cant. And he is the one most likely to try(actually did, many years back, and now his house has a room that can only have one person a time, lest it fall into the creek), and he happens to be the one who is looking to sell his house now.

If you want to reform the permit process, I am with you. Start a petition for a smoother system, and I will sign it. Lets get it on the ballot. But this measure is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And the bathtub.

[sandnsea]

11. Oh for chrissake, we have to have housing regulations

Are you not paying attention to Wall Street???

:banghead:

You don't want to live with "nanny staters", go to Alabama where the revel in their "independence" and hurricanes and tornadoes blowing their homes away.

[here_is_to_hope]

15. Its not housing regulations, its the fees for permits

thats fucked up.
Wall Street has zero to do with this issue, zero.

Its a simple matter of permits to build what you want, where you want and how you want.

Not for developers but for us homeowners who like to improve our homes and have them fit our lifestyles.
We cant use rain water because 'they' say it will confuse the water treatment plant.
We cant move a light switch or bring in gravel for the driveway without a permit because 'they' say its for our own good.
We cant install solar without a 500.00 permit because 'they' dont know how to inspect it and have to bring in someone from Salem!


And as for telling any one to head to Alabama, this Cow Creek Umpqua Indian tells you to kiss his Native ass.

Nanny staters from California are screwing over Oregon.

[sandnsea]

16. Regulations have everything to do with it

Regulations are there for a reason. Whether it's banks or home construction. They're there to provide a certain level of assurance that the house is safely constructed when people buy a house. There has been housing codes in Oregon forever. This has got nothing to do with nanny staters. This has to do with assholes who don't give a shit about how their construction projects affects anybody except themselves. We just had one of your precious freedom lovers plow down the beach dunes in front of their home because they didn't care about the environmental laws, storm surges and his neighbors, or anything else. I don't give a crap what your ethnic heritage is, if you're too stupid to care about sound construction, then you can kiss my native of the world ass.

[here_is_to_hope]

17. Yeah, I started the tractor for him and told him where to push all of the

sand.
Dont lump me in with what you hate, its none of my business what goes on in Florence, the place was fucked years ago by the retiree's, every one knows that. Florence is infested with gated communities and HOA's, like the kind that just sent a man to jail in Florida because his lawn was brown-its no different up there in Lane County.

Like I said, I dont care about building to code, thats fine but what I do care about is the FACT that I have to pay hundred's in fee's for permits, having to wait for 'inspectors' that know very little.

Again, its not the codes and ordinances, its the fee's.

And if me moving a light switch affects my neighbor-well, he needs to get the fuck out of my house!

[LWolf]

14. Sizemore and Mannix make it easy to

decide, don't they? I have a question mark next to 57. While I'm leaning "no," I too want to hear some discussion about this one.

[here_is_to_hope]

2. I am with you on all of it but M63....

The permit process in Oregon is straight from hell and very expensive. It does nothing but create a hassle for the homeowner.
Where you get that it helps developers, I have no idea.
Care to show me cuz I cant find it.

My recent remodel has permit and inspection fee's of over 6000.00 dollars and delays of up to three weeks.
For a simple addition and a shop.
You should see what we went through to build a strawbale guest house!
We never did get permits for it!
Its our land, its our home, for us to jump through hoops for permission and inspections is stupid and expensive.

[OregonBlue]

3. Right on. Already voted since I will be out of town.

[Uncle Sinister]

6. RE: 57 & 63

57 does indeed "sound" more progressive than 61 (that's why I only gave it 1 NO! (instead of NO! NO! NO! AND FUCK NO!)

It's still bad law, bad idea, and will demand a huge amount of funding without any funding source (goodbye library hours and park maintenance and school field trips and Oregon Health Plan...crippled as it is)

63 I freely admit is the measure I know the least about. Also, in the spirit of full disclosure I am a renter rather than a property owner. My NO! is based on 2 things.

#1: it's sponsored by Bill Sizemore...that alone should be reason to kill. Has he EVER put forward anything that was good for the average Oregonian?

#2 Oregon League of Conservation Voters rec's strongly no.
http://olcvblog.typepad.com/olcvblog/2008/09/olcv-no-on-me-2.html
I don't always take OLCV at face value, but their argument is pretty cogent. I've yet to see a good counter-argument. I stand by my NO!

[quakerboy]

9. I am curious

what is the state of Oregon libraries?

Here in Portland, I think the Librarys are doing ok, but I know my sis, a way out from the city, said they are planning to close her library, and I have been told by others that theirs are closed or closing?

[sandnsea]

18. No more imprisonment

If we don't authorize it, then local officials will be forced to focus on the violent offenders and treat the petty criminals accordingly. I am so sick of this "tough on crime" bullshit. Again, we already have a state with a backwards justice system where they lock people up for traffic tickets. It's called Alabama. Go there. (not you, go there, that's a generic, go there)

[ScottytheRadical]

21. My friend who's working for a Dem campaign keeps telling me...

to vote YES on 57 because if it gets more votes then 61, it will become law and not 61, and, like you say, it's more progressive.

But this is assuming that both of them pass. Personally, I don't support either bill, and I voted no on both of them. We need to start treating drug addiction as a health matter and separate the actual "crime" of drug usage from other crimes, and these bills blend them together with higher sentences.

And I'm not a person who advocates lesser-evilism in voting :P.

[quakerboy]

10. You know what I would really like to have seen this year?

something regarding the metal recycling issue. The stuff that has been disappearing seems to have reached the ridiculous stage.

edited for spelling

[insanity]

12. Here's my take

Yes on 54,55,56

No on anything else.

[LWolf]

13. I just sat down with my voter info book yesterday;

it came in the mail last week. After going through it all, I came to the exact same conclusions you did. All the way down.

Local and state issues, and the opportunity to help evict Smith, are my reasons for voting this fall.

[Left Brain]

19. We don't even have our pamphlets yet.

Something about not going in the mail until after October 17?

[bhikkhu]

20. Agreed on all, except 56

and I hate to say...I have always been appreciative of the "absolute majority" law for spending measures, if only because it requires good popular support for any spending measure to pass. It is certainly a burden, but the alternative (I think) is worse.

[Greyhound]

22. Good to hear from you, it's been a long time.

I have to vote a straight NO this year on the measures.

For the advocates of the 63, I agree the permitting process here is cumbersome and expensive, but this is no solution. We already have this bizarre exception to many permits as long as the owner "does it themselves" and it is a nightmare. Both houses I've rented here are perfect examples of the loophole here, the first house was intended to be a flip and, while they claimed otherwise, the owner didn't do one thing to it himself and since he didn't have to live there we got every possible corner cut, they did new plumbing (with no permits of course) and used the new plastic tubing which is cool, but in order to squeeze a couple more pennies profit they used galvanized connectors and routers. They put on a new roof, but left the structure exposed ensuring it would rot away in a couple of years. They tiles all the counters in the kitchen but didn't seal the grout, same on the floors. There was no insulation and none of the interior doors would close.

My current rental is another dump that hurts everybody else's property values, once again owned by one of the "do it yourself" set. This father & son team fancy themselves "contractors" and just because they know nothing about structural integrity, carpentry, electrical, or plumbing, it never stops them from going ahead and screwing it up worse, as long as they don't have to spend any money. The back porch was self installed w/o any permits, the foundation is not tied to the house and has no footings, the support posts were just stuck in the corners while the concrete was wet and the roof is attached to the eaves with a piece of plywood nailed to a rafter, not one FHA strap in the whole mess. They cut a large entryway through a bearing wall, and installed a wood stove in the fireplace that is not even UL listed, let alone, within code.

I could go on all day about the deficiencies of this developers loophole, suffice it to say that this place is a series of disasters waiting to happen and thanks to the lax or absent standards here, there is nothing I can do about it except hope that we can move out before one of them happens.

[sandnsea]

23. Because when anything breaks

when you're the tenant - the immediate response is "what did you do" and they will then try to force you to pay to hire a contractor to fix their fuck-up. I've been in this house for 10 years and the only thing they've ever done is paint it and that's because the landlady's son is a painter. And he didn't even do that great of a job, there's still overspray on some of the windows. I'm pretty lucky that it was her personal home for many years, so it's good structurally. But it needs all new flooring, new cupboards, inside paint, etc. And they still want top 2004 dollar for it.