Man Dies 2 Days After Metro (Nashville) Police Use Tasers On Him

[NashVegas]

A young Nashville man whom police tried to subdue with Tasers died yesterday, prompting Metro police to launch two investigations into the circumstances surrounding his death.

Patrick Aaron Lee, 21, died yesterday afternoon at Vanderbilt University Medical Center. He was taken to the hospital after a confrontation with officers outside Mercy Lounge, a live music venue off Eighth Avenue South, shortly after 11:30 p.m. Thursday.

...

Lee's death yesterday shocked and outraged his friends and family, who believe Lee was struck with Tasers multiple times by as many as 11 police officers and that he was also beaten.

....



Police say:

"He was sweaty at this time and that made it difficult for the officers to control him," Aaron said. "Lee was hit by Taser probes four times and he was Tased multiple times." The total number of Taser shocks was eight, Aaron said.

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050925/NEWS01/509250416

[AlCzervik]

1. Since June 4 people in Sacramento have died after being tasered

from the age of 17 to the age of 45.

[Gregorian]

2. Just how many deaths does it take?

It's inhumane, people!

The morons manufacturing this Tazer have no idea what Purkinje fibers are. My guess is that these shocks are creating electrical pathways that should not be there. And cardiac arrhythmias are killing these people.

I had a friend who bumped his cherry picker into a high voltage line, and also died two days later.

Fuck Tazer, inc. They should be slapped with a grand jury or some such thing, for manslaughter.

[NashVegas]

4. Aw, Heck, Just Wait Til the Consumer Model Comes In

http://news.neilrogers.com/news/articles/2005021703.html

[Gregorian]

5. Do you know, I literally had a nightmare about that.

A couple of nights ago.

But then it would have come in handy for the asshole who couldn't find it in his heart to give me one fucking INCH, as he drove by me riding my bike today. Hmmm, a tazer in my backpack. Nope. I am adamantly opposed to it. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Fucking idiots. I want my own universe. Get me out of here! :)

[AX10]

7. I'd send in the FBI with GUNS DRAWN and...

those guns would be waved in the face of Taser Int. employees.

That will send a message.

What are "Perkinje fibers"?

[Gregorian]

9. Oops. That's Purkinje, with a U.

They are the electrical pathways that are located under the endocardium. The impulses that contract the heart muscle travel via those fibers. We're talking about millivolts. And some fucking dork builts a zapper that by the time the jolt gets to the heart muscle, is probably way way higher than it should be.
There's no way in hell they tested these. I would guess they used the studies from electrophysiology labs to extrapolate their specification. That, and maybe hearts from pigs.

I think there's no end to the stupidity of man. But I'd like to think that we are careful and not reckless. But obviously a lot of people aren't.

[AX10]

13. Look at my sig line, i.e :The New Terrorists"

Link 1 goes to Taser Int, and Link 2 goes to PNAC.

Both groups are terrorists, and should be treated as.

The blind taser supporters are pigs and they will not show up.

[Gregorian]

21. Oh, it's all about "safety". Funny, those people don't inspire me.

The bible even predicts a time when we will be hearing a lot of bullshit about "safety". I don't preach. I just find it really interesting that there are parts of that book that DUers can really identify with.

And the PNAC stuff is so Anglocentric and arrogant. I love their home page. The part about how the military is GOOD for America. It's great if you own an ammunitions company, or stock in Halliburton.

Puke. It's hard to stay sane.

I have to keep telling myself that there are many good people. You tend to hear about the rotten apples.

[AX10]

36. What does this mean:

Oh, it's all about "safety". Funny, those people don't inspire me

But I like you am sadened that so many on our side fall for this crap.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ridgerunner]

45. Another message brought to you by the proud

folks at Taser Int.

[AX10]

74. Thanks for the support.

:kick:

:hi:

[SammyBlue]

3. Water and Tasers

And you thought the Electric chair was cruel.

Bonus points to the cops if he was black.

But I am wrong for criticizing cops. Hell, my best friend was an officer for 10 years and now he understands where I come from, being part of that.

Badge = extention of penis!

Investigation? I smell whitewash.

:mad: :mad: :grr: :grr: :banghead: :banghead:

[AX10]

8. There's actually a cop that understands how we...

civilians feel?!?

Please elaborate.

[AX10]

6. and the "TASERISTS" are no where to be found.

:eyes:

Just Bust up the Police Unions already. That will send a message.

This shit has to stop. :mad:

[Occulus]

10. They shut their faces a while ago

after it became plain that these things are indeed the CAUSE of death for every person who has died after they've been used on them.

It never ceases to amaze me, however, how some people can think that it's "safe" to jolt a living bag of water with electricity on the order that the taser uses. Cattle prods would be safer.

These things need to be banned. Outright, nobody in this country will make them anymore, stiff fines for posession, stiffer fines for importation, immediate termination if used in any employment context, BANNED. As in, against the law to have. As in, MORE dangerous than guns because too many people think tasers are "safe". Or "less-lethal" (a CHILLING term). Or whatever.

Nobody deserves to have or use these, period. There are other, safer ways. Oh, and Taser's assets should be liquidated and divided among the families of the people who have died. The company does not deserve to exist.

[AX10]

14. Long time no see kgfnally!

Good to see you here!

:hi:

[Occulus]

50. I read a lot more than I post lately

because my thought processes are all screwed up thanks to this nasty ass infected wisdom tooth I'm dealing with. I'm normally sleeping right now, but the pain woke me up :(

[HardWorkingDem]

47. What's your point about breaking up police unions?

Please explain.....

[HardWorkingDem]

11. Before people jump to conclusions...

why don't you wait until the final findings of the autopsy come in.

Blanket statements made before all the facts are in do no good.

[AX10]

15. Ban Tasers, and shut down Taser Int!

[Lerkfish]

24. someone is tasered 4 plus 11 times? and we should wait?

pffft!

[AX10]

35. Right on! The cop is a criminal!

Tasers are not proven safe.

[jayctravis]

12. Okay...WHY is he getting done with multiple tasers?

Tasers don't subdue a person, it shocks the fuck out of them by causing enough trauma to make any other action impossible to make them STOP what they are doing...drop a weapon, long enough for someone to escape. Using it to cause long term pain or multiple times is misuse of application.

Someone not holding a weapon should never be tasered. And never more than once. If you're not using it to rescue yourself from danger it's wrong.

[jody]

16. Article reports Lee was on drugs. Taser opponents can't claim

racial discrimination in this case because Lee was white.

QUOTE
Police said Lee told them he was acting that way because he had taken LSD or PCP. Although they knew he had "experimented" with drugs, Lee's family disputes the initial police findings.

"I just got the report back from the hospital and they told me all they found was a small amount of Valium and cannabis, or marijuana," Lee's father, Earl Bud Lee, said an hour after his son's death. Earl Bud Lee is a local songwriter who co-wrote Garth Brooks' 1991 megahit Friends in Low Places.
UNQUOTE

[AX10]

17. The Taser killed the man. This is not about race.

It's about justice.

Tasers should be banned. I do not trust or respect any cop with a taser.

The cop in question is a murderer, period.

[jody]

18. A murderer? We should wait for an investigation before preemptively

invading someone's life.

[AX10]

19. But it's ok whe the government invades our lives, isn't it?

:eyes:

Tasers kill, PERIOD! Tom Smith needs his ass hauled down to GITMO!

[jody]

22. Why rush to judgment? It's possible that Lee died of causes unrelated

to the Taser.

You shout "Tasers kill, PERIOD!" but that's not true. GAO reported in "Use of Tasers by Selected Law Enforcement Agencies"

QUOTE
Emerging domestic and international threats have generated a growing interest in the use of less-than-lethal weapons1 by government and law enforcement agencies and other entities such as commercial airlines. One such weapon—the Taser—is a hand-held weapon that delivers an electric shock via two stainless steel barbs, effectively incapacitating an individual.2 According to the manufacturer—Taser International, Incorporated (Taser International)—Tasers are currently used by over 7,000 of the 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the United States, with more than 140,000 Tasers in use by police officers in the field and an additional 100,000 Tasers owned by civilians world-wide. Taser International officials told us that Tasers have been used on over 100,000 volunteers, including individuals involved in training seminars and research experiments. They also told us that Tasers have been involved in over 70,000 actual field uses during police encounters.
UNQUOTE

That's 170,000 uses against perhaps 3 or 4 deaths confirmed as being caused by a taser. That's a lot less than your "Tasers kill, PERIOD!"

[Lerkfish]

25. LOL! so you agree people should be tasered multiple times?

are you avocating that as a humane policy?

[jody]

26. What do you suggest police officers do - nothing, guns, batons, tasers? nt

[Lerkfish]

41. how about not tasering someone more than once?

your rejoinder is pointless btw.
Are the only choices tasering someone in excess of 10 times or doing nothing?

[jody]

43. Why don't you answer my question? You must want police to be unarmed.

You want to ban tasers even though coroners have concluded that tasers caused perhaps 3 or 4 deaths when used over 170,000 times.

I would not be surprised if batons have caused more deaths than tasers.

[Occulus]

52. Know what, Jody?

You're disrupting. Know why?

"You must want police to be unarmed."

Bullshit.

[HardWorkingDem]

65. Why don't you tell us?

kgfnally,

Yes, why don't you tell us what should be done?

[jody]

69. What do you suggest police officers do - nothing, guns, batons, tasers? nt

[NashVegas]

81. So Who's Paying off the Coroners?

Get real. Out of the hundred or so deaths in which tasers were involved, to say that only 3 or 4 were caused by the Taser is equal to saying those people would still be dead right now if a Taser had not been involved. Highly dubious - unless the Taser users in question had used guns instead.

[jody]

82. LOL, thanks for a joke so early in the morning. n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

20. Jody...

Are you going to apologize for this weapon too?

It's making cops into judges, juries and executioners, not to mention punishers, in situations that do not warrent deadly force. Period.

It must end.

[jody]

23. As I said in #22, GAO reported 170,000 uses of tasers. According to

media articles, perhaps 3 or 4 deaths have been caused by tasers.

What would you have directed the police officers to do in this case -- nothing, guns, batons, tasers?

[AX10]

27. I will remind you that MILLIONS of people gave their ONE LIFE...

so that we could live as free people. One person should NEVER be judge and jury.

Oh, and alot more than "3 or 4 deaths" occured with the usage of a Taser. 120+ people died after being 'tased'. That is a fact.

[jody]

29. I said "perhaps 3 or 4 deaths have been caused by tasers." Do you have

a source that proves more that number of deaths has been caused by a taser?

[AX10]

30. The reports say that the Taser was involved in the deaths of....

over 100 people! Several police departments have suspended them due to the safety question, including Fort Wayne Indiana.

[jody]

31. I guess my question was to difficult so I'll repeat it. "Do you have

a source that proves more that number of deaths (3 or 4) has been caused by a taser?"

[AX10]

32. Links:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/usa/document.do?id=1A01E91E134A327080256F190042408D

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-02-15-stun-guns_x.htm

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/07/18/report_taser_guns_linked_to_five_deaths/

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050401003109990004

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-01-taser-report_x.htm?csp=15

Shut taser down!

[jody]

33. None of those links prove that the number of deaths caused by tasers

is more than 3 or 4. They state that some number of deaths occurred some time after a taser was used.

I'll help you narrow your search. Find coroner's reports that conclude a taser caused a death.

For example, "An Illinois coroner became the first to determine that shocks from a Taser weapon were the primary cause of death of a human being, though the controversial devices have been implicated in scores of fatalities across the country." See Medical Examiner Confirms First Electrocution by Taser

Since the first coroner's report was in July 05, I doubt very much if you will find another 119+ since that time to bring the number up to the 120+ you gave in post #27.

[AX10]

34. No. You ask for links and I found them.

Additionally, the Air Force's report stopped short of saying that the Taser is 'safe'. There are in fact unknowns about the effects of a taser.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/09/eveningnews/main672709.shtml

Tom Smith should locked in GITMO.

[jody]

37. I accept your post #34 as admission that you are not able to find

sources that prove the number of deaths caused by tasers is more than the 3 or 4 I asserted.

I enjoyed our exchange.

Have a peaceful evening.

:hi:

[AX10]

38. This is the evidence.

Thank you. and have a nice evening too.

Break up the police unions and I'll be happy.

[HardWorkingDem]

46. What does breaking up police unions have to do with anything?

Please explain.....

[Occulus]

55. Four words: Blue wall of silence.

It ought to be mandatory that, whenever a person not initially wanted for a crime dies at the hands of police, a citizens' review board NOT connected with the department in any way be convened and a trial by that board be held- a trial outside the purview of the courts, by the way.

This makes sense, given that police are acting more and more, every day, as judge, jury, and executioner- as happened in this case.

"Officer Christopher Brooks said when he arrived, Lee told him his name was "Blue" and approached the officer. Brooks told the young man to "keep his distance," according to a press release. Brooks said Lee was acting aggressively, removed his shirt and ran 40-50 yards. Brooks used pepper spray and ordered him to the ground. He said Lee then disrobed and ran naked through the parking lot."

THAT sounds like a drunken college stunt. It's not much diffeent from when five guys ran across the football field naked during homecoming when I was in college. Some here, such as Jody, would be comfortable with those guys getting killed at the hands of police for what they did.... but I am not.

We need to put police back under the public's thumb and start holding them accountable for their actions. They are becoming, daily, more and more, out of control. In spite of this, I'm willing to put a paycheck on these officers not losing their jobs because of this incident.

They should be fired and should lose the ability to ever be officers again, for the rest of their lives. This was not a "mistake"- this was an unconscionable act of torture and murder.

[HardWorkingDem]

61. DOES NOT sound like a "drunken college stunt".....

What you quoted does not sound like a "drunken college stunt" to me at all - but I was not there and nor were you.

For one, pepper spray did not work on this person. For another, the removing of one's shirt is a classic sign of a person getting ready to fight.

Clearly the portion highlighted indicates the person might have had mental issues or under some sort of substance.

"Officer Christopher Brooks said when he arrived, Lee told him his name was "Blue" and approached the officer. Brooks told the young man to "keep his distance," according to a press release. Brooks said Lee was acting aggressively, removed his shirt and ran 40-50 yards. Brooks used pepper spray and ordered him to the ground. He said Lee then disrobed and ran naked through the parking lot."

You still didn't answer the police union question.

Again, my point is that in these instances an entire thorough investigation needs to be completed before the word "murder" is tossed around so cavalier.

[HardWorkingDem]

64. Please explain the break up the "police unions"...

Interested about this part....

[AX10]

75. The police unions are infamous for blindly defending....

police when they are guilty of wrong doing. No suprise, the Fraternal Order of Police(nation's largest police union endorsed Bush, twice) has a history of defended the henous acts of cops.

The FOP is but a mere interest group in the business of defending their clients/interests.

I am interested in defending the Consitution and the America way of life.

-peace

[HardWorkingDem]

77. And what about other unions?

ALL unions protect their union members. For one thing they are bound by ethics, by-laws and laws. Police unions are no different from the UAW, Teamsters or any other union.

And as for the mythical "blue wall of silence" that is found in all occupations as well and when it comes to its impervious nature, that too is a myth.

For example, look at doctors. How many good doctors come forward and report bad ones? Or how about teachers? Every high school student at some point or another learns of some high school teacher that is having inappropriate relations with a student, so if a student knows, where are the teachers coming forward? This stuff goes on in all unions, not just police unions.

What is it with your bias against police?

[AX10]

79. Police are the government and have the power of the state behind...

them. The UAW most certainly does NOT have that same support from the government.

[HardWorkingDem]

80. Oh, please...

go talk to some cops and find out how much they think their employers give a crap about them. Then come back and try to add to the debate.

If anything, about the only reason a law enforcement employer (local, state or federal govt) would protect a rank and file law enforcement employee would be to cover their own ass in a time of crisis.

[Lerkfish]

42. none so blind as they who will not see.

what do you win if there are only 4 deaths? (there are more btw)

what are you trying to prove?

[jody]

44. Obviously you want to ban tasers but you are unable to show that tasers

are not an effective tool for law enforcement.

Police use guns in their duties and they kill a number of suspects every year.

What criteria are you going to use to ban tasers or guns for police, the number of deaths they cause?

If so then you should want to ban guns before tasers.

[Occulus]

56. We have no problem with guns, Jody, because we know

guns are intended to be lethal. This is a known fact. However, we have been led to believe- and I use "we" as a member of the public- we have been led to believe that tasers are "less lethal" or even "less THAN lethal" (and there's a huge difference between the two concepts), when they quite clearly are not.

Tasers should be universally banned. They are not, not, not an effective tool for law enforcement. All too often, they are the reason suspects die. And it's way WAY more than three or four.

You have a relative who's an officer, don't you?

[HardWorkingDem]

62. Where do you get your "facts" from?

Where did you pull this out of?

"They are not, not, not an effective tool for law enforcement. All too often, they are the reason suspects die. And it's way WAY more than three or four."

You are sadly mistaken and I don't know where you get your information from but it is completely inaccurate.

Tasers are just like any other tool in law enforcement - they are dependent upon the user and every tool can be abused. And certainly, in the case of a death, the death must be examined and if abuse is discovered, then the appropriate punishment should be handed out.

[jody]

67. If you've been led to believe that tasers are "less lethal", then 3 or 4

deaths for 70,000 or more uses certainly lives up to your expectations.

[guruoo]

59. Really? I thought AX10 made their case quite well.

[jody]

68. Then you didn't read very closely. The issue is how many deaths have

coroners ruled were caused by tasers. The first was reported in July 05 and another a few weeks later. I used the number 3 or 4 deaths to include any others that might have occurred since that time.

AX10 ignores those facts and gave links that list deaths that occurred after a taser was used in spite of the fact that coroners did not rule that tasers caused those deaths. :shrug:

[Occulus]

54. Denial is more than an Egyptian river. n/t

[jody]

70. Truth is more than unsupported assertions. n/t

[HardWorkingDem]

66. Again, where is your source?

What is your 100 death sources? Also, the question must be asked - what is the source of a CAUSAL relationship?

And before you through in Amnesty International, I have been a member since 1989 and still question their reports at times.

As for several departments suspending the use of tasers, I would suggest a large part of the decision making was done out of political pressure more so than scientific causal evidence.

[Occulus]

53. I would suggest the number is MUCH higher than 3 or 4.

I would also suggest you get tased. I hear it tickles.

[HardWorkingDem]

63. And your source?

Where is your source of information?

I would not be surprised if there are more deaths but the question is, did the tasing have a CAUSAL factor in the death. And I would even bet a large sum of money that more people die in physical struggles with police than through tasing. But these deaths have been medically attributed to things like cocaine intoxication or existing health problems.

[jody]

71. The first taser death reported by a coroner was in July 05, another a few

weeks later. Please provide a source for any other deaths reported by a coroner since those.

[AX10]

28. Hi TS.

Long time no see for you! :hi:

[Occulus]

51. That no longer matters

and is nothing more than an easy-out excuse.

"On drugs"? I really, really, really hope you're not agreeing that this was justified because of "a small amount of Valium and cannabis".

Isn't Valium a prescription drug?

And we ALL know cannabis doesn't make one violent.

Are you trying to imply justification here? Because, you can't. Period.

21 years old. What a waste. What a shameful, criminal waste of life.

[AX10]

73. Bingo. Prescription drugs are common.

The taserists want you to believe that any substance in the human body will make that person unstable. :eyes:

Vallumn calms people down!

[HardWorkingDem]

78. Have you ever encountered a mentally unstable person?

I have to ask, have you ever encountered a mentally unstable person? Or one under the influence of drugs?

[BiggJawn]

40. Every time the TASER stings....

Bernie Kerik's cash register rings...


"Buy my Product?"

[HardWorkingDem]

48. Here is the thing.....

All tools can be abused - ALL. And that is the sad thing about American law enforcement.

With that though, almost every circumstance can't be covered with a blank statement. That is why impartial, complete and open investigations are needed. Go back and read the newspaper link to this post. There is almost nothing in there that describes the incident. There are too many variables left unsaid.

Next, the autopsy needs to be completed and a complete study done on the background of the person who died. Was there mental illness involved? Drugs? All of that.

Sadly, people die in encounter with police officers. People have even died from physical restraint because of other factors as well. (Obesity, health condition, drug consumption and on and on).

My point is that before people are accused of murder or opinions made, a through investigation must be completed.

Or is it that American police officers are not accorded the same rights as other Americans in this country just because they are police officers?

[Occulus]

57. Absolutely NOT.

We *must* jump to the conclusion in these cases because, if an "open and thorough investigation" is allowed, the police WILL GET OFF. Without punishment.

Did the police involved in this incident perform "an open and thorough investigation" into why this guy was acting the way he was? NO! They killed him first. NOW they're going to do an autopsy, which among other things will likely tell why he was acting the way he was.

These officers should be locked up in prison while an "open an thorough investigation" is performed, then they should be freed if they're found "innocent"- whatever that word means in this context.

In other words, to be consistent with their own behavior, these officers should be imprisoned and themselves tased several times before they are questioned, arraigned, or tried.

To complete this thought: these officers removed from this young man his right to due process and a jury trial; therefore, they deserve neither.

edited to add: police do not deserve their rights to due process when they deny those rights to a man they have in the end killed. Just as in the military, I thik we need to look at the idea of police officers being subject to a different set of laws, which deny them their Constitutional rights, if they are going to be killing unarmed men.

from the article:

"Aaron said he did not know if Lee was unconscious before the ambulance arrived; today, the department will interview the ambulance crew, he said."

Fox, meet henhouse. A reporter should interview that ambulance crew seperately; these officers cannot be trusted to uncover information which might paint them in a bad light. Anything said by that ambulance crew will very likely be sanitized to make those cops look good.

No, I do NOT trust them to get to the bottom of this, because they're the ones who killed the guy. An investigation independent of the police is required here- and that will not happen, thanks to too many people who trust police implicitly.

Police do not automatically deserve trust just because they are police. We ALL should assume, until it is proven otherwise, that police are themselves suspect.

Always, always always question the authority. IT is the onlt way to guarantee that they do their jobs correctly.

[HardWorkingDem]

60. It's obvious....

that your mind is made up all ready and there is no further need it trying to debate your conclusions.

I'm not saying culpable people should not be held accountable, but a complete examination must be conducted.

Don't know what your bias against police officers is, but the vast, vast majority of police officers are decent Americans.

[HardWorkingDem]

49. Here is the thing.....

All tools can be abused - ALL. And that is the sad thing about American law enforcement.

With that though, almost every circumstance can't be covered with a blank statement. That is why impartial, complete and open investigations are needed. Go back and read the newspaper link to this post. There is almost nothing in there that describes the incident. There are too many variables left unsaid.

Next, the autopsy needs to be completed and a complete study done on the background of the person who died. Was there mental illness involved? Drugs? All of that.

Sadly, people die in encounter with police officers. People have even died from physical restraint because of other factors as well. (Obesity, health condition, drug consumption and on and on).

My point is that before people are accused of murder or opinions made, a through investigation must be completed.

Or is it that American police officers are not accorded the same rights as other Americans in this country just because they are police officers?

[Occulus]

58. Your last line puts the lie to your post.

"Or is it that American police officers are not accorded the same rights as other Americans in this country just because they are police officers?"

How about members of the public being given their right to a fair trial by jury? How about the due process rights of the dead guy- you know, the one the police unceremoniously assassinated?

[AX10]

72. This line is BULL!

"Or is it that American police officers are not accorded the same rights as other Americans in this country just because they are police officers?"

Police can easily get away with murder under the guise of "the law".

Remember Armadu Diallo from New York. He was shot 41 times and the cops(pigs) got off without any jail time. I don't want to hear about 'police rights'. They have powers, not rights.

God already, just bust the police unions up, please!

[HardWorkingDem]

76. Were YOU there?

Were you there? Have you ever read an account of what happened at all? Have you ever been in a firefight?

Yes, that was a terribly sad incident. But this is what juries are for - to hear all sides of an incident.

Now, if you go and read an honest account of that incident with an open mind, you might find how that event occurred not to be a large surprise.

Also, pick up Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink and Steven Johnson's Mind Wide Open. These books go into how the human mind works and explains how things like this can happen.

I just love how people make such snap decisions from their arm chair without even considering all sides to the story or incident.

And what does police unions have to do with all of this?

[NashVegas]

83. More Info

I was told today that the kid weighed about 110 pounds. 8 jolts. 400k volts. Yum.

I miss the days when the police would have just beaten the shit out of the guy.