Another fucked up execution: Saudi Arabia beheads a man for "sorcery".

[backscatter712]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/saudi-arabia-executes-man-convicted-sorcery-2011-09-20

Saudi Arabia's government should establish an immediate moratorium on executions in the kingdom, Amnesty International said today after a Sudanese man convicted of "sorcery" was put to death.

Abdul Hamid bin Hussain bin Moustafa al-Fakki was beheaded in Madina on Monday. Saudi Arabia has now executed 44 people this year. Eleven were foreign nationals.

"Abdul Hamid's execution is appalling as is Saudi Arabia's continuing use of this most cruel and extreme penalty," said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International's Director for the Middle East and North Africa.

"That he should have been executed without having committed anything that would appear to constitute a crime is yet another deeply upsetting example of why the Saudi Arabian government should immediately cease executions and take steps to abolish the death penalty."

[hatrack]

1. Sorcery?!? WTF?!?

Oh, yeah, I forgot - it is 1432 over there.

:eyes:

[Enrique]

2. GOP debate audience responds

[deutsey]

5. +1 for the gallows humor laugh

[glinda]

6. +1

[teddy51]

3. One of our staunch Allies in the Middle East, and the Bush family friends. n/t

[hlthe2b]

4. Is there any other kind?

Human cruelty knows no bounds.

[cleanhippie]

7. Yet another example of the danger of religion.

[humblebum]

11. Yes. Imagine how many would have died in the USSR and China

had religion been involved. 130 or so million is bad enough without adding the horrors of religion.

BRAIN ALERT! Could it be that people and not religion is the problem?

OK, now you can start the criticism and denial.

[laconicsax]

12. Religion was involved, just not the way you meant.

Religion represented a threat to the State's total authority, and was dealt with accordingly.

[humblebum]

15. Scientific Atheism, League of Militant Atheists, Society of the Godless, etc. nt

[laconicsax]

16. Uh huh.

[darkstar3]

17. So by focusing on the atheism, and laying the blame for all deaths in the USSR at its feet,

you are saying that all atheists are Communists.

[humblebum]

18. There you go conflating the two again. nt

[darkstar3]

19. So are you now clearly stating that they are different things?

[humblebum]

20. There were many more atheists than Communists. nt

[darkstar3]

21. And the people who did the killing, were they Communists or not?

[humblebum]

23. I imagine some were and some were not.

[darkstar3]

54. You imagine?

You have admitted that Communism and atheism are separate things. If we have proof only that Communists were mass murderers, then what besides your own imagination allows you to say that it was atheism, and not Communism, that was responsible?

[humblebum]

25. I have never said anything to the contrary. Are all marxist-leninist

communists atheists? Yes. Are all atheists communists? No. Doesn't get much clearer than that.

[skepticscott]

31. That you truly believe

every single Marxist-Leninist communist who has ever lived was really an atheist (as opposed to simply acting like one in public and talking the party line when people were listening) is just further proof of how little you know or understand about...well, anything.

[darkstar3]

55. False. Many Communists retained their faith and paid only lipservice to the party line.

And if you clearly admit that they are different, then you clearly admit that Communism, and not atheism, is directly responsible for those mass murders. It's quite simple, because you have no proof whatsoever that non-Communist atheists committed mass murder.

[skepticscott]

22. And how many deaths

were they directly responsible for? 130 million? Horseshit. You wear that number like a badge and make all sorts of intellectually dishonest associations of it with atheism, but never provide one whit of evidence that those people were killed in the name of atheism. In fact you're well aware that most deaths in Stalinist Russia had nothing to do with atheism.

And you already provided us with the most cogent and accurate summary possible of the activities of the "League of Militant Atheists", from one of your supreme authorities, and no violence or repression was even mentioned.

[humblebum]

24. Sir, the only intellectual dishonesty here is yours. I have provided

mountains of evidence that you have chosen to ignore. Again, intellectual dishonesty. Nor have I claimed that 130 M were killed in the name of atheism. Again, intellectual dishonesty.

[skepticscott]

29. You've claimed that 130 million people

were killed under atheist dictators, and done so many, many times. Out of all of the hundreds of qualities of those dictators that you could have mentioned, the only reason to focus solely on atheism is to attribute those deaths to atheism, for reasons everyone here knows very well. Be as dishonest and disingenuous as you like, but that won't change. I claim with at least as much justification that all of those people were killed by brown-haired dictators. Prove to anyone that your characterization of them is any more valuable than mine.

And you have NEVER provided ANY evidence of how many deaths the "League of Militant Atheists" was directly responsible for (if any). Not one shred, and you cannot and never will. What you have presented is not evidence of anything of the kind, so it has been dismissed as useless and irrelevant.

[humblebum]

30. "killed under atheist dictators" - absolute truth.

"the only reason to focus solely on atheism is to attribute those deaths to atheism" - What you make of this is totally up to you. But stop reading things into what I have said. You are only being dishonest.

"NEVER provided ANY evidence of how many deaths the "League of Militant Atheists" was directly responsible for" - We can only estimate. I never claimed anything else. They were not the only atheist group by any means. However, they were the primary group and largest group with a stated mission of harrassing and hunting down people engaged in religious activities. There were 96,000 local groups across the country.

Anyway, stop putting words in my mouth! Or prove what you say or your words are nothing more than blather.

[skepticscott]

32. You do realize that no one here swallows your crap?

My point stands unrefuted. You cannot offer any reason for characterizing these dictators as "atheist" and nothing else, except to imply that their atheism was the motivation for mass murder. Your disingenuous garbage about intending no such thing isn't convincing anyone.

As far as the LOMA, I estimate zero deaths caused directly by their activities. Prove me wrong. Here is the best and most accurate summary of their activities, provided by you:

The League of Militant Atheists comprised workers, peasants, students, and members of the intelligentsia. Organizations were founded at plants, factories, kolkhozes, and educational institutions. By early 1941, the league consisted of approximately 3.5 million working people of 100 nationalities. The number of groups reached 96,000. Guided by Leninist principles of antireligious propaganda and by the party’s decisions on these principles, the league dedicated itself to ideological struggle against all forms of religion and the development of a scientific world view among working people. It disseminated propaganda on the natural sciences and atheism, offered believers individual counseling, and trained propagandists and atheist agitators. It also published scientific and popular scientific works and a number of periodicals, founded museums and organized exhibitions, and conducted scientific research in the field of atheism and criticism of religion. Working under the motto “The struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism,” the league coordinated atheist propaganda with economic, political, and cultural tasks. The league maintained extensive international ties; it belonged to the International of Proletarian Freethinkers, and then to the World Union of Freethinkers. In 1947 the league turned over its tasks of disseminating scientific-atheist propaganda to Znanie (Knowledge), a newly created all-Union society.
REFERENCES
Konovalov, B. N. “Soiuz voinstvuiushchikh bezbozhnikov.” In the collection Voprosy nauchnogo ateizma, no. 4. Moscow, 1967.
Konovalov, B. N. K massovomu ateizmu. Moscow, 1974.

Funny, nothing in there about "harrassing" or "hunting down", let alone killing. Your evidence and arguments, as always, are crap.

And "killed under dark-haired dictators-absolute truth" is as meaningful as your title

[humblebum]

33. I have given published totals many times and many valid

publications as reference. And show me where I claimed the above info said anything that it did not.

I predicted your blather and you are definitely predictable.

[humblebum]

34. Here, so you won't have to lay awake at nights.

"Lenin outlined that the entire issue of the church valuable campaign could be used as a pretext in the public eye to attack the church and kill clergy.
The sixth sector of the OGPU, led by Yevgeny Tuchkov, began aggressively arresting and executing bishops, priests, and devout worshipers, such as Metropolitan Veniamin in Petrograd in 1922 for refusing to accede to the demand to hand in church valuables (including sacred relics). Archbishop Andronik of Perm, who worked as a missionary in Japan, was buried alive. Bishop Germogen of Tobolsk, who voluntarily accompanied the czar into exile, was strapped to the paddle wheel of a steamboat and mangled by the rotating blades.
In 1922, the Solovki Camp of Special Purpose, the first Russian concentration camp and a former Orthodox monastery, was established in the Solovki Islands in the White Sea.Eight metropolitans, twenty archbishops, and forty-seven bishops of the Orthodox Church died there, along with tens of thousands of the laity. Of these, 95,000 were put to death, executed by firing squad. Father Pavel Florensky was one of the New-martyrs of this particular period.
In the first five years after the Bolshevik revolution, an English journalist estimated that 28 bishops and 1,215 priests were executed. Recently released evidence indicates over 8,000 were killed in 1922 during the conflict over church valuables. This included people like the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Fyodorovna who was at this point a monastic. Along with her murder was Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich Romanov; the Princes Ioann Konstantinovich, Konstantin Konstantinovich, Igor Konstantinovich and Vladimir Pavlovich Paley; Grand Duke Sergei's secretary, Fyodor Remez; and Varvara Yakovleva, a sister from the Grand Duchess Elizabeth's convent.
They were herded into the forest, pushed into an abandoned mineshaft and grenades were then hurled into the mineshaft. Her remains were buried in Jerusalem, in the Church of Maria Magdalene.
Specialized anti-religious publications began in 1922, including Yemelyan Yaroslavsky’s Bezbozhnik, which would later form the basis for the League of the Militant Godless.
With the conclusion of the campaign of seizing church valuables, the terror campaign against the church was called off for a while. The church closings ended for a period and abuses were investigated. The propaganda war continued, and public institutions worked to purge religious views from intellectuals and academia.

The League of the Militant Godless (LMG), under Emelian Yaroslavsky, was the main instrument of the anti-religious campaign and it was given special powers that allowed it to dictate to public institutions throughout the country what they needed to do for the campaign.
After 1929 and through the 1930s, the closing of churches, mass arrests of the clergy and religiously active laity, and persecution of people for attending church reached unprecedented proportions. The LMG employed terror tactics against believers in order to further the campaign, while employing the guise of protecting the state or prosecuting law-breakers. The clergy were attacked as foreign spies and trials of bishops were conducted with their clergy as well as lay adherents who were reported as 'subversive terroristic gangs' that had been unmasked. Official propaganda at the time called for the banishment of the very concept of God from the Soviet Union. These persecutions were meant to assist the ultimate socialist goal of eliminating religion. From 1932-1937 Joseph Stalin declared the 'five year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country. Many of these same methods and terror tactics were also imposed against others that the regime considered to be its ideological enemies."

- Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev. A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press, 2002.

[skepticscott]

35. When you get those totals up to

anything close to 130 million, do let us know. Of course members of the clergy died, along with tens of MILLIONS of others, for constituting all manner of real and perceived political threats. The clergy were a drop in the bucket, as your own figures prove.

And why do you not mention all of the atheists who were arrested and executed in the purges? Why would a militantly atheistic government, determined to promote atheism and eliminate religion at all causes, do that?

[humblebum]

36. So where did I ever say that there 130M religious and clergy killed.

You're just all about spin and dishonesty aren't you. And you also know that you've seen the documentation before. They were good propagandists and really played things down, just like you. Typical.

[skepticscott]

37. Of course there weren't

130 million religious and clergy killed. Not remotely. But you've consistently claimed a TOTAL of 130 million people killed by atheistic dictators. Thanks for finally admitting that the vast majority of those deaths were NOT of religious people, let alone for religious reasons.

And no comment, I notice, about all of the atheists killed in the purges. What a shock.

[humblebum]

38. I have never said otherwise. You are still doing it.

But that 130 million is only an estimate. Some put it much higher. OH. And yes they were atheists.

[skepticscott]

39. As you've just admitted twice

your number of 130 million has no connection whatsoever to religion or religious motivations, any more than it does to hair color. Thank you.

So your point in citing that figure so many times on the Religion and Theology forum is....what?

And why was "militant atheist" Stalin killing all of those atheists? Enlighten us.

[humblebum]

40. Nor did I ever admit anything of the sort? You're wrong on all counts.

I sure hope you don't make that many on the job mistakes. I think it's time you did the enlightening since you deny every thing put before you.

BTW, I believe you characterized the League of Militant Atheists as a benevolent bunch of boy scouts. now how do you account for that?

[laconicsax]

41. One place you made the 130 million claim is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=253928&mesg_id=254512

A DU Google search for "humblebum 130 million" yields 1430 results, so don't pretend you never made the claim.

[humblebum]

42. Well since I just went over 1000 posts not too long ago, chances are

pretty slim that I have mentioned it more times than I have posted. Secondly, I never denied saying that and stand by it.

[humblebum]

43. Here's a few more to spin into "never happened"

China
"On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.

In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.

The Walker Report: between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000."



RUSSIA
"Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago, Page 178: citing Kurganov, 66 million lives lost between 1917 and 1959"

"Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine"

[laconicsax]

44. And some of the victims were atheists.

Not exactly what you'd expect if it were atheists killing in the name of atheism.

ETA: It is what you would expect, however, if it was totalitarians killing masses of people seen as a threat to state supremacy.

[humblebum]

45. Did I ever say there weren't? And

when did I ever say that everyone was killed in the name of atheism? Answer, NEVER.

You spun that one even faster than I expected.

[laconicsax]

51. Right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=230862&mesg_id=231152

I never said that everything was done in the name of atheism, but when atheists are ordered to persecute, harrass, report the religious and their activities, and when groups do the things they do with the name "atheist" clearly labled, and when millions of religious are killed, imprisoned, or both to advance the policies of Scientific Atheism- It was most certainly done in the name of atheism. It was NOT 'League of Militant Communists, but of 'Militant Atheists or Godless'. You are in denial.

Paraphrase, "I never said it was done in the name of atheism, but it was most certainly done in the name of atheism." You deny saying it, then turn right around and say it explicitly. When you say "but," it negates what precedes in favor of what follows. I can even shorten your words even further without changing the meaning: "Not A, A."

I eagerly await your next dodge.

[humblebum]

53. And the denial continues.The only one dodging and spinning here is you.

"I never said that everything was done in the name of atheism, but when atheists are ordered to persecute, harrass, report the religious and their activities, and when groups do the things they do with the name "atheist" clearly labled, and when millions of religious are killed, imprisoned, or both to advance the policies of Scientific Atheism- It was most certainly done in the name of atheism. It was NOT 'League of Militant Communists, but of 'Militant Atheists or Godless'. You are in denial."

Nowhere in there did I say that EVERYONE was killed in the name of atheism. Certainly many were. But not everyone, and I never said that. But, many were. It is not an "all or nothing" deal.

[darkstar3]

56. No they weren't. Your vaunted example of an atheist group

is not only a Communist group, it's also a false transliteration. The League of Militant Godless, which is what their name actually translates to, has a very different meaning. Hint: The "militantly Godless" part means that they will forcibly remove God, at the behest of their Communist leadership, and in contrast to people who simply live without belief in any gods.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

61. False.

Атеист is the Russian word for atheist. безбожник, as far as I can tell, is a Serbian-Croatian word for "The Godless one".

I stand by what I said. "Militant Godless", especially in Russian, has a very different meaning from "militant atheist", which would be even more of an oxymoron in that language than it is in ours.

[humblebum]

62. Then you better be telling the Russians that, because they have been

using them interchangably all along. 'Bezboznik' was also the name of the mass produced newspaper circulated by the Russians, not the Serbs. And there were even atheist groups whose members were referred to as 'Bezbozniki'. Again, NOT Serbs, but Russians. There may have been some other nick names or slang words. Russians actually use more of those than English speakers.

We have traveled this route more than once.

Type the word "atheist" into Babylon Translator English to Russian, and guess what - "с.атеист, безбожник"

[darkstar3]

64. And WE use many foreign words in our own vocabulary,

but when we do, it is because they have a different and more complex meaning than what is available in English. N'est pas?

(Literally translated "it is not?", however it means much more than that. "Do you not agree?" "Is it not clear?" "Isn't that true?" All of these and more are different ways to interpret that phrase, and that's just a translation. A transliteration (involving an entirely different alphabet) is a hell of a lot harder.)

It does not surprise me that a paper put out by the Communists to further their agenda against the Russian Orthodox Church was called "The Godless One" using a borrowed term from a foreign language. But what you must realize is that the usage of that word clearly shows that there was something more there than could be expressed with the simple Атеист.

If even the Russians of the time didn't think that their word for "atheist" was strong enough to describe the idea that the Communists were pushing, what makes you think that you can use it now as a target of blame?

[humblebum]

65. You are blathering now. It is the same word. Lenin used it, Stalin used

it, Trotsky used it. Lenin and Marx both used the examples of the Paris Commune, which was popular in Russia long before the Bolsheviks took over. The concept was further formalized at the at the Vienna Circle. That's where the term and policy of "Scientific Atheism", not "Scientific Godlessness", came from.

[darkstar3]

67. Seriously? That's your defense of your point? That Communists used the word?

You have nothing whatsoever to say about the fact that it's clearly a different word than the actual Russian word for atheist? You have nothing to say about the fact that #59 is bullshit and Babylon Translator is notoriously wrong?*

*So wrong, and so often, that using it in foreign language classes is actually encouraged by teachers as an example of what not to do.

[humblebum]

68. You are grasping at straws now. It's not that the Communists used

used the word, it is that the Russians used it before Russians were Communists. You do not seem to understand that the Communists did not bring atheism to Russia. But they certainly capitalized on it. It was a growing movement long before their time. i also didn't use Babylon for my benefit, but for yours. I'm pretty sure I have a little more knowledge and experience in this particular area than you do. I say that simply out of what I have observed. And I also know that you have a habit of denouncing any sources that contradict you POV.

I know. Maybe the Russians took to speaking Serbian when the Communists took over. That would explain it. Yep. That's gotta be it.

[darkstar3]

71. You named people who founded the Party.

My point stands: Communists and atheists are very different groups, and everything you post here in an attempt to lay the mass murders of Communists at the feet of atheists is rooted in dishonesty. And when you undoubtedly continue to post this drivel, you should remember these things:

1. You've already admitted, clearly and without reservation, that atheism and Communism are different.
2. You've already admitted that you have zero proof that non-Communists committed mass-murder.
3. You've been shown that your favorite method of passing blame from Communists to atheists, the League of the Militant Godless, is an even more worthless red herring than you thought.
4. You have repeatedly demonstrated a clear bias against atheists with your statements about how atheist protests are unacceptable but religious protests are just fine.
5. You have been caught in multiple falsehoods regarding the history you so repeatedly refer to.
6. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you have absolutely no idea what the difference is between atheism and anti-theism.

[humblebum]

73. Give it up. Your a spin doctor. You pull so many things

out of thin air, it's gone beyond being ridiculous to disgusting. And as far as "clear bias against atheists" -you have zero room to talk, buddy. Everything you say above is nothing but spin and blather.

Where you get some of the ideas you have, I have no idea. If you say I admitted all these things, then show me the exact quotes for those, or button it. You do not have a clue about Russian history and you are purposely being dishonest and contemptuous. You are a spin doctor extraordinaire.

How do you say that last word in Serb? I think your star is getting darker all the time.

[darkstar3]

77. This seems apropos at this point.

http://www.treelobsters.com/2009/12/108-logical-fallacy-theater.html

[humblebum]

78. Very much so. That fact that they were atheists is so obvious,

and yet you dance around and obfuscate trying to cover up the fact.

[darkstar3]

79. You're the one invoking the ad hom. :)

[humblebum]

80. Also, Occam's razor. nt

[darkstar3]

81. .

:rofl:

[laconicsax]

58. "It was most certainly done in the name of atheism."

Your words.

"I never said everything was done in the name of atheism, but... It was most certainly done in the name of atheism."

Where I see contradiction, you see confirmation?

[humblebum]

60. And it most certainly was. But,

"I never said everything was done in the name of atheism"

It's no wonder you have such a difficult time with seemingly simple concepts. And you are right,"Where I see contradiction, you see confirmation? But I think you know better.

[laconicsax]

63. You realize that I'm quoting you, right?

You've now admitted that you falsely believe that those actions were done in the name of atheism, no more running away from that falsehood. You said it, you verified that you said it, you own it.

[humblebum]

66. I think your confusing yourself. Go read a Russian history book on the subject.

"You've now admitted that you falsely believe that those actions were done in the name of atheism" - where you got that I'll never know, but i'm done with you.

[laconicsax]

69. You can't figure out how I got "it most certainly was in the name of atheism" from you using those

exact words?

Well, that's a new one.

[humblebum]

70. "it most certainly was in the name of atheism" Yep. and it was, but

that statement doesn't say what "it" refers to.

[laconicsax]

72. You repeat it again. Do you still wonder where I get the idea that it's something you believe?

[humblebum]

75. You stopped making sense a long time ago. Out. nt

[skepticscott]

74. Sorry you don't realize what you admitted

but I can't help that. When you make shit up all the time, eventually you'll end up chasing your own tail.

And yet more dishonest bullshit. Where and when did I say that the League of Militant Atheists was a benevolent bunch of boy scouts? Nowhere and never. There's a word for knowing that something isn't true and saying it anyway. I quoted YOUR post about the LOMA, repeated here:

The League of Militant Atheists comprised workers, peasants, students, and members of the intelligentsia. Organizations were founded at plants, factories, kolkhozes, and educational institutions. By early 1941, the league consisted of approximately 3.5 million working people of 100 nationalities. The number of groups reached 96,000. Guided by Leninist principles of antireligious propaganda and by the party’s decisions on these principles, the league dedicated itself to ideological struggle against all forms of religion and the development of a scientific world view among working people. It disseminated propaganda on the natural sciences and atheism, offered believers individual counseling, and trained propagandists and atheist agitators. It also published scientific and popular scientific works and a number of periodicals, founded museums and organized exhibitions, and conducted scientific research in the field of atheism and criticism of religion. Working under the motto “The struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism,” the league coordinated atheist propaganda with economic, political, and cultural tasks. The league maintained extensive international ties; it belonged to the International of Proletarian Freethinkers, and then to the World Union of Freethinkers. In 1947 the league turned over its tasks of disseminating scientific-atheist propaganda to Znanie (Knowledge), a newly created all-Union society.
REFERENCES
Konovalov, B. N. “Soiuz voinstvuiushchikh bezbozhnikov.” In the collection Voprosy nauchnogo ateizma, no. 4. Moscow, 1967.
Konovalov, B. N. K massovomu ateizmu. Moscow, 1974.

That's the description YOU supplied, from a source YOU consider an authority: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=303025#303405
If now you want to claim that source doesn't know what he's talking about, go ahead. But the only one putting words in someone else's mouth here is you.

And notice that you're still ducking the question of why Stalin killed all those atheists in the purges. You might as well take your best shot, because that question isn't going away. Cope.

[humblebum]

76. Absolutely dishonest and deceitful. All you are doing is demonstrating

a total lack of knowledge or the pretense of.

"And notice that you're still ducking the question of why Stalin killed all those atheists in the purges" - I haven't ducked anything. Who ever said that it was only religious adherents that died? Or that religion was the sole reason people died? Honor among thieves? Animals eat their young? Take your pick. you have already admitted that they were indeed atheists, and that they did kill.

None of that diminishes the fact that the absolute destruction of religion and its adherents was a major goal and the establishment of state atheism was to be the replacement.

I noticed that you have gone from a 'never happened' mentality, to an 'it didn't really happen that way' mentality, to a 'your sources aren't quite what we consider sources' mentality, to a 'you don't really understand the reason behing these events' mentality. Absolute obfuscation of the facts. You not only exposed yourself, but I am seeing more similarities between then and now all the time. Amazing and interesting.

No state religion has or had anything on these guys. Organized atheism is a religion without a god. Same mentality, same motivations, same actions.

[backscatter712]

27. In the Soviet Union, the state was the religion, and Stalin was god.

Sam Harris was right on this - the problem with the Soviet Union, Maoist China, et. al. wasn't that they lacked religion, but that they were too much like religion - full of dogma and authoritarianism.

You don't go wrong by having too much reason.

[humblebum]

28. The trouble is is that is flawed reasoning for the purpose of rationalization.

Scientific Atheism was the declared state "religion." And it was that fact that was inculcated at all levels of society, either by acceptance or by force. Harris either doesn't know or doesn't care to admit.

[Deep13]

47. The only reason Stalin and Mao promoted atheism...

...is because Marx was so disgusted by the abuses of religion, especially in theocratic states like China and Russia, that he singled it out as a special kind of evil--the kind that lets people suffer abuse while making them think they are not.

edit--fucking autocorrect

[onager]

13. Yeah, pre-Red Russia was a lot more religiously tolerant...

The New York Times described the First Kishinev pogrom of Easter, 1903:

"The anti-Jewish riots in Kishinev, Bessarabia , are worse than the censor will permit to publish. There was a well laid-out plan for the general massacre of Jews on the day following the Orthodox Easter.

The mob was led by priests, and the general cry, "Kill the Jews," was taken up all over the city...

The scenes of horror attending this massacre are beyond description. Babies were literally torn to pieces by the frenzied and bloodthirsty mob. The local police made no attempt to check the reign of terror. At sunset the streets were piled with corpses and wounded. Those who could make their escape fled in terror, and the city is now practically deserted of Jews."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire

[laconicsax]

14. Well it was more tolerant of Christians, and that's what really matters to some people.

Go figure.

[cleanhippie]

26. Oh yes, of course. You are so right.

[Deep13]

46. You really are a one-note song.

This is the R/T forum, not the communism forum. As you have repeatedly said, Stalin, Moa and their followers were not religious, so why do you keep bringing them up? They are irrelevant to the discussion on religion. It is simply an effort to change the subject by pointing at a different boogieman. By relying on this example, the very best you can say is that religion is only as bad as Stalin and Moa. Is that REALLY your benchmark?

[humblebum]

50. Um? Well. When i keep getting asked these questions, that

tends to make a person stay on topic. And atheism is just about as irrelevant too. Nonetheless, they are the majority it seems.

[darkstar3]

57. There was NO question in the post you responded to in order to create this subthread.

You take any opportunity you can to talk about Communism, and Communism is not relevant to the board.

[trotsky]

8. They are just following their deeply-held religious beliefs.

Who are we to tell them they're wrong?
:sarcasm:

[NMMNG]

9. Indeed

That would be bigotry.

[chill_wind]

10. The Demon Haunted World. If only we as a planetary species could finally get out

of the dark ages.

"I worry that, especially as the Millennium edges nearer, pseudo-science and superstition will seem year by year more tempting, the siren song of unreason more sonorous and attractive. Where have we heard it before? Whenever our ethnic and national prejudices are aroused, in times of scarcity, during challenges to national self-esteem or nerve, when we agonize about our diminished cosmic place and purpose, or when fanaticism is bubbling up around us—then, habits of thought familiar from ages past reach for the controls. The candle flame gutters. Its little pool of light trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir."

—Carl Sagan, 1996

[Deep13]

48. Sorcery, superstition, witchcraft = other people's religions nt

[Deep13]

49. So, are we still convinced that everyone's beliefs are equally valid? nt

[laconicsax]

52. Have you read Harris' Moral Landscape?

There's an amusing (and horrifying) anecdote about a bioethicist you might enjoy.