Has hell frozen over?

[rug]

Tuesday, October 11, 2011
J. Peter Nixon

Church teaching has shifted away from damnation and now focuses on salvation. Is that a good thing?

To a young girl attending Catholic school in the 1940s, eternal damnation was no abstract concept. “The nuns really terrified us,” says Pat Conroy, who grew up in Maryland. The list of potential transgressions—from eating meat on Fridays to missing Mass on Sundays—was long. “It seemed like almost anything was enough to send you to hell. I became so scrupulous and worried about everything I did.”

“Hell was an important part of the religious landscape of my childhood,” recalls Peter Steinfels, who grew up in Chicago during the same period. “It was the hell of endless flames and eternal punishment; although even in second and third grade I recognized that there was something mythical about this.”

For Catholics like Conroy and Steinfels, who were raised on “fire and brimstone” images of hell, some of the changes associated with the Second Vatican Council brought spiritual and psychological relief. “There was much more emphasis on God’s love and how God really wants to save us. It was such a relief,” says Conroy, who now works to bring that message to the inmates of a county jail near her parish.

http://www.uscatholic.org/church/2011/09/has-hell-frozen-over

[Warpy]

1. Part of the church, the liberation part,, has always done so

while preaching that salvation occurs by making the world a better place for each other while we are here.

The other part has always realized people are easier to control and extort if they believe they can bribe their way out of hell by money first and lip service second.

I leave it to the religious to determine which group follows more of the instructions of Jesus Christ.

[rrneck]

2. Salvation is more marketable right now.

Especially in the consumerist United States.

[Silent3]

3. Hell is (for) other people

The purpose of Hell of late seems to be a fate for those who won't join in on a particular fundamentalism, not something True Believers themselves have to worry about, no matter how much they screw up. Accept Jesus, and all will be forgiven. Believe differently, and no matter how good you are, burn forever in the Lake of Fire.

[jwirr]

4. Well it depends on what church you are in - I am Lutheran and that

has been the emphasis since the beginning of the Lutheran church. Damnation enslaves us - salvation frees us.

I am not preaching just letting you know what the other side thinks.

[rug]

6. I think the church has always gone through periods of shifting emphases.

Hasn't the Catholic Church and Lutheran Church issued a joint statement of belief on faith and works?

[jwirr]

8. Yes, but believe me that does not mean a unity in all areas of belief.

I do not think we Lutherans are ready for celibate ministers. There have always been many areas of agreement between Catholics and Lutherans. But many differences remain. We just agree not to argue about them.

[msongs]

5. same message - if you are not a christian you ARE going to hell nt

[rug]

7. You should speak to someone about those shadows you're boxing.

[trotsky]

9. What's your church's official position on hell, rug? n/t

[rug]

10. I've told you many times.

Or you can read the complete article.

[trotsky]

11. I don't recall you ever stating it.

And the article is too boring to pick through.

Surely you know what it is and can just tell me, right?

[rug]

12. It was someone else then.

On the off chance you don't know and are asking a genuine question, it's in paragraphs 1033 through 1037 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.shtml Rather than repeat an old argument, note quottation marks.

On the more likely chance you're sidling into an argument, save yourself the trouble and don't bother.

[trotsky]

13. Ah, thanks for the link! I see the church that you support officially states that:

"The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, 'eternal fire."

According to your church, I will go to hell and burn for eternity.

Is that what you believe too, rug?

[rug]

14. Ah, sidle it is.

In your haste to promote another circle jerk you ignored my admonition about quatation marks. As well as the rest of the paragraph.

"The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."

Tell me, trotsky, do you ever tire of lurking here for the sole purpose of flinging bullshit.

However, to answer your question I'm indifferent. You can go to hell for all I care.

[laconicsax]

15. "You can go to hell for all I care."

So you do believe in the hell your church promotes.

[rug]

16. What hell is that?

If you read it, you'd know that hell is defined as separation from God, a state which has the utter and complete absence of God. And that it's an knowing, intelligent and voluntary decision to choose that state over an existence which has God in it.

Do you believe that?

[laconicsax]

17. "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity."

That hell.

And no, I don't believe in any place of eternal damnation.

[rug]

19. Correct. An eternity without God.

I would think you'd consider that heaven.

[laconicsax]

21. It's called reality.

[rug]

22. You're free to choose your own reality.

Just don't make the mistake of assuming it is.

[laconicsax]

23. Do you have any evidence for an afterlife?

Sorry, I'll take reality over your guesses any day of the week.

[trotsky]

18. Actually, the key term here is "mortal sin."

Your church believes there are many ways to voluntarily turn away from god, and thus commit a mortal sin.

So I asked you a question - and got a vicious smack in the face instead. But I'd still like an answer: Do you personally believe that I will burn in hell for eternity?

[rug]

20. Your questions are disingenuous.

[trotsky]

25. It's just a yes or no question, rug.

Do you think that when I die, my soul will burn in hell forever? Yes or no. I'm just curious. No traps, no games, nothing. You give me a yes or no answer and I won't even respond to the post giving it.

[darkstar3]

26. He doesn't take issue with the word hell, it's the word burn he doesn't agree with,

and he's so sophomoric that he refuses to say it flatly.

What's really laughable is that he does believe in hell, and he does believe that people will be sent there, and he does believe that they will be sent there for deeds committed in this short life, but he vehemently fights with anyone who describes it as burning or torture. Something tells me cognitive dissonance is involved.

[trotsky]

30. Which would,of course, mean that he's going there too.

Because disagreeing with the perfect and revealed truth that his church teaches is willfully turning away from god, and... wait for it... a mortal sin, which condemns you to hell.

[rug]

33. Pssst, I'm over here.

This isn't a pm or an echo chamber group.

[trotsky]

48. See you in hell, rug.

:hi:

[rug]

49. Afraid not.

Either I'm right and neither of us is capable of getting into hell or you're right and it doesn't exist.

We just have to enjoy our own little hell right here.

[trotsky]

51. Or, your church is right.

And we'll be frolicking in the flames.

[darkstar3]

50. Along with every mofo who's ever lived on the planet.

http://www.pinetree.net/humor/thermodynamics.html

An oldie, but apropos.

[rug]

31. If you think something is laughable it's less sleazy to say it to the person you're laughing at.

If you could momentarily shake your passive aggression.

And there are at least four false statements in your post.

[darkstar3]

34. I did, a long time ago. Now I'm just saying it where you can read it.

[rug]

36. Then you should paraphrase accurately.

Reeling out prefab bullshit is intellectually lazy.

[laconicsax]

37. You mean like falling back on the CCC?

You're right, that is lazy.

[rug]

42. Considering that was the answer to his question, it's not.

The question was lazy though. He could have looked it up himself.

Since you're here, I'll lend you a hand. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lazy

[laconicsax]

52. So, it isn't lazy when you do it. Got it. n/t

[darkstar3]

38. I did.

[rug]

43. No you didn't.

Review the threads in your stalker file.

[darkstar3]

45. Oh no! You think I'm your stalker??

Will you ever move past "shut up, I don't like what you're saying!"?

:boring:

[rug]

32. Considering the unfounded assumptions in your question the answer must be no.

[AndyTiedye]

24. Maybe I'll Fix the Air Conditioning There

[darkstar3]

27. The funny thing is that this proves the church realizes, on some level,

that we don't really need saving.

Even the Catholic Church recognizes, after centuries, that it is contradictory to the core to claim that a loving God would send people to the hell they originally described. That's one step closer to recognizing that hell is a ridiculous concept, and one step closer to recognizing that man needs no salvation.

I wonder what their doctrine will look like in 2500 or so.

[Odin2005]

28. Telling kids that they are going to hell is child abuse.

[NMMNG]

29. So there's less focus on hell

And more on how god loves you and wants to save you from hell (which he created to punish you if you don't live up to his conditions).


What's changed, exactly?

[rug]

35. For one thing, it's explicit that no one is sent to hell.

It's a choice.

BTW, it's worth noting that, while the Catholic Church has a canonization process for declaring a person is in heaven, it has never claimed, stated or identified anyone who is in hell. In fact, to eliminate all the mitigating factors that prevent a person from forming a clear, willful intention, knowing there is a God, to then reject that God, it appears extremely difficult to get into hell.

[NMMNG]

39. More blame the victim garbage

God doesn't send you to hell, you choose to go to hell. It's all your fault if you suffer.

RRRWers love that meme. That's how they can ignore poor people (if they weren't so lazy they'd have jobs and be rich), the homeless (same thing), cry for bans on abortion even if the woman's life is in danger (slut made her "choice" when she spread her legs), deny rights to gay people (even if they were "born gay" they choose to engage in gay behavior) etc.


What a nice, wholesome set of beliefs you have there.

[darkstar3]

41. +1

[rug]

44. How can you be a victim of a nonexistent thing?

I understand there's currency in playing the victim but you're overplaying your hand.

Your litany of the poor, homeless, pregnant, and gay doesn't flow from the topic at hand.

What a nice, wholesome loosening of associations you have there.

[NMMNG]

53. We're talking about your religion here

And in your religion "god" exists.

[darkstar3]

40. Sure, and I guess no one is sent to jail, either.

Wow.

[rug]

46. Why of course we're talking about the criminal justice system.

Wow.

Wow.

[darkstar3]

47. It's called an analogy.

Problem?

[ButterflyBlood]

56. Well if you're a universality (which the Catholic Church obviously isn't but throwing something out)

then it makes more sense. For example one universalist theory is that while Jesus was dead he did go to Hell and then sealed it so that no people would ever go to there. So Jesus did save us so we should still be grateful.

[ButterflyBlood]

54. Even my charismatic and nominally evangelical church doesn't talk about Hell

Note that I didn't say "often". I literally have never heard it mentioned. Even heaven isn't mentioned a lot either, the messages are mostly about how God and Jesus can help you in this life.

[David Sky]

55. Hell simply doesn't SELL anymore to the rational minded. and..

with children in western nations becoming more educated, more rational, more skeptical of empty threats and fearful images at earlier and earlier ages, it's time for Christian religions to go light on the fear factor as a selling tool.

I find it amazing how the true believers pussyfoot around about their convictions as to whether the OTHER guy is going to Hell, but simultaneously have no question whatsoever that their religious beliefs are the only "true" belief system, all without a scintilla of factual, verifiable, measurable concrete evidence.