Honor Killings: Islamic And Christian Misogyny At It’s Worst

[cleanhippie]

An “Honor Killing” is nothing more than a vicious, pre-meditated murder committed by a sick, twisted, demented and psychotic fundamental religionist. The victim is usually female and the perpetrator is usually male. The charge brought against the victim is bringing dishonor to the family. How is this dishonor wrought? Sometimes it is a violation of a dress code or refusing to marry a pre-arranged spouse, but the most common reasons surround sexual activity.

Of course, the sexual activity doesn’t have to be consensual. Rape victims are also guilty of bringing dishonor, and they can be killed as well. While records of honor killings date back thousands of years, the advancement of the collective human intelligence and worldwide recognition of basic human rights should have eradicated this doctrinal ritual long, long ago. However, fundamental religionists have a tendency to ignore things like human rights, preferring to remain locked in willful ignorance.

--snip--

Honor killings occur with shocking regularity in Middle Eastern and South Asian Muslim nations. Those who try to defend Islam often blame the widespread murder of innocent women on tribal or cultural practices, stating that Islam in of itself is not responsible for it. However, the honor killing within the Muslim community originate from the core value of family honor that is prevalent in Islamic societies. As was stated by Mr. Mirza, all it can take to spark an honor killing is speaking with a man or a rumor of the loss of virginity.

--snip--

There seems to be a divide on whether or not murder committed by Christians of those who have dishonored or disrespected the perpetrator. Many Christians would argue that the bible does not support this practice. They will tell you that modern Christianity does not condone the taking of a life for transgressions that result in dishonor or disrespect. However, I would be remiss if I did not address the the hypocritical finger-pointing that is routine among many Christians who condemn Islam for being barbaric in it’s support for this kind of violence. The Quran has not cornered the market on honor killings. Commands for honor killing can be found in the Bible, as well:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/alstefanelli/2011/10/19/honor-killings-islamic-and-christian-misogyny-at-its-worst/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

[Warpy]

1. The only thing a poor man has that's worth selling is his daughter's virgin pussy

It's a commodity, nothing more. If it gets ruined, you get rid of it because it becomes a liability. No one else wants it, so the father only thinks of feeding it and never of the person attached to it or the labor she is already doing.

The problems are the virginity fetish and the use of half the human race as a commodity to be traded by the other half.

[struggle4progress]

2. There's something strange about Stefanelli

... Stefanelli was ordained into the ministry by the Eternal Light Christian Fellowship in Raleigh, NC in 1992. He served as Pulpit Supply for the Southern Baptist Convention, attended Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary college and spent ten years as an Itinerant Preacher ...
http://wikibin.org/articles/al-stefanelli.html

... As well as Pastoring the Eternal Light Christian Fellowship, I filled in for vacationing pastors at larger churches ... http://alstefanelli.wordpress.com/tag/faith/

So Eternal Light Christian Fellowship must have ordained Stefanelli pretty quick to ordain him before the end of 1992, and the current agent name is interesting:

Corporate Filings For: Eternal Light Christian Fellowship, Inc.
... 11/16/1992 ... Creation Filing INC - Articles of Incorporation
http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Filings.aspx?PItemId=5047018

Date: 10/19/2011 ...
Agent Name: STEFANELLI II, ALFRED A
http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Corp.aspx?PitemId=5047018

[cleanhippie]

3. And?

[struggle4progress]

5. So what exactly is his background again?

[NMMNG]

4. Matt Slick of CARM

(Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) actually defends the practice. A woman's intact hymen was way more important than her life, especially since her father would be embarrassed and stuff. Matt tries to temper his support of the practice by saying "that's just how things were back then" but his situational ethics don't change the fact that he defends the indefensible just because it's in the Bible.

[struggle4progress]

6. "... we do not advocate any type of honor killing ..." is a defense of the practice?

[NMMNG]

7. All that babble before it was

He spends three paragraphs supporting it then throws in one line claiming that "of course we don't support that stuff". Pretty paltry disclaimer. Then he adds that situational ethics garbage about "that's how it was back then".

It's the same way anti-gay Christians say "I don't hate gay people, God does. I'm just following His Word." They're about as honest and believable as this guy.

[struggle4progress]

8. As far as I know, Christianity never taught "honor killing." In fact, the story of St Joseph --

discovering his wife-to-be was pregnant, though not by him, marrying her anyway, and raising the child as his own -- can very naturally be read as a parable against "honor killing"

I'd never heard of Matt Slick, though I see he has some views I consider unappealing. But nowadays, just about anybody can set up a website and spout garbage. I'm not much interested in wasting my time on all the vast wasteland of internet fruits and nuts, except when there's some reason to worry that the fruits and nuts have an organized following with some political potential. Do feel free to make the case, if you think there's good reason for us to follow Matt Slick's jabber

But this thread concerns claims by Stefanelli about honor-killing. It's a serious topic, and to do anything about the problem, one ought to begin by getting basic facts straight. Stefanelli, somehow, doesn't seem to be able to do so: for example, Judaism abandoned honor-killing long ago, and it's never been part of the Christian tradition. One might expect Stefanelli -- who claims to have been a pastor for over a decade -- to know that, but the superficiality, of his commentary above, suggests that he may actually just be spouting talking points from an iPod app

To support Stefanelli, you give us a link to a website, which you seem to think supports honor-killing: it's a nutjob site but (as I pointed out upthread) the site explicitly disavows honor-killing

Frankly, I don't find Stefanelli's views useful or informative; I don't find Slick's views useful or informative; and I don't find it useful or informative when someone misrepresents Slick's views in support of Stefanelli's misrepresentation of Christianity's attitude towards honor-killing

[trotsky]

12. "it's never been part of the Christian tradition"

What exactly do you mean by that? Christians have engaged in honor killings, particularly Palestinian Christians. Use your elite Google skills. Seems to be more of a cultural than religious phenomenon, however religion certainly seems to exacerbate the problem.

[Thats my opinion]

28. But there are people

who take delight in spending hours each week sorting through the most rotten garbage to find something terrible about religion, no matter how obscure. I know religious fundamentalists who do the same thing about either others' religion or those of no religion. They are both distressed fundamentalists, and my guess is we should not answer them because it just gives them a chance to dig deeper into whatever trash pit they can find.

[darkstar3]

29. I don't know about the rest of the people you're accusing, but I for one

don't have to look very hard at all. In fact, while reading local news websites I am often confronted with ridiculous stories involving religion. From Catholic charities shutting down in response to Washington DC's attempt to end bigotry against homosexuals, to bugfuck "pastors" predicting the end of the world, and those are just the high-profile front-page stories.

Religion pervades every aspect of American life, and there is a clear reason for that in the Evangelical movement and those who carry water for them, like you're doing here. As such, it will be a topic of criticism here, in a forum where it is possible and safe.

But don't let those facts stand in the way of feeding your own persecution complex.

[iris27]

9. The FLDS practice it. They call it "blood atonement" and generally prefer that the victim offer

themselves up willingly, but it's more of a "you can go willingly, or you can go at gunpoint" kind of thing.

The young woman whose case led to Jeffs' conviction for accessory to rape (though it was later overturned) finally got the strength to leave the community after she heard Jeffs saying that blood atonement might be necessary to punish her "adultery". She had fallen in love with and gotten pregnant by a young man from outside the community, who obviously was not the 1st cousin she'd been forcibly married to when she was 14 and he was 19.

Another ex-FLDS man later reported that Jeffs asked him if he could design a high-temp furnace capable of destroying DNA evidence, to be used in cleaning up after such atonements.

[struggle4progress]

10. Jeffs is obviously a creepy sicko, but do we actually know that his group killed anyone?

I understand that claims without evidence are considered bad form in this forum

Arizona, Texas, and Utah all still have the death penalty, and Jeffs' group wouldn't have wide popularity in any of those states, so an actual murder case involving his cult would likely land somebody on death row

[iris27]

13. It's enough for me that it's an accepted part of their doctrine.

I have no evidence of a confirmed case of it happening - in Elissa Wall's case, she was able to get out in time.

But then again, in places like Hildale where the FLDS *are* the town, the police force is made up 100% of members of that faith community - so they're not exactly going to be conducting investigations.

The sexual abuse cases that have come out against Jeffs have all come from wronged parties who were able to break free and then report what they suffered to external authorities. If you're using death to permanently silence your troublemakers, the likelihood of word about such a crime getting out drops even further.

[struggle4progress]

16. "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra

[darkstar3]

19. So it's OK that it's recognized dogma, because your Google-fu can't find people adhering to it?

Holy fuck. There's really nothing more to say.

[iris27]

22. Actually, two seconds on Google shows that many Mormons have killed and died in the past under this

doctrine. Not that distant of a past, either - we're talking late 1980's. I just don't know anything for certain about Jeffs' group. So, yeah. Nothing more to say.

[struggle4progress]

23. Maybe you could offer us some links? Around here, some of us like links

[darkstar3]

24. Maybe iris is waiting for you to do your own damn homework, Professor Googlus.

You are, after all, the poster with THE highest count of tangential links in the entire forum. I'm SURE you have the ability to search for this shit.

[iris27]

26. Sure.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=blood+atonement

[iris27]

21. Both the theory and the practice are worthy of outrage and contempt from every decent person. n/t

[struggle4progress]

25. Death threats and murder are criminal offenses in every venue in this country. I'm aware

of no significant move anywhere to decriminalize those offenses. But as far as I know, the offenses are not regarded as the same offense anywhere here, and I'm aware of no significant move anywhere to treat them as equivalent

[iris27]

27. I would avoid the company of, and hold in contempt, someone who did either. In that sense,

which is the only one I care about, they are equivalent. Public opinion does not require the same burden of proof as our legal system.

[struggle4progress]

11. I'm wondering: back when Stefanelli was a "pastor," did his "church" preach "honor killing"?

[laconicsax]

Why the scare quotes?

:shrug:

[struggle4progress]

15. Twould take a very odd "pastor" of a very odd "church" to think the gospel taught "honor killing,"

and the record, so far as I can make it out, does seem odd:

(1) Stefanelli apparently claims he was "ordained" by an organization that seems to have been incorporated only a few weeks before his "ordination";
(2) Stefanelli also apparently claims said organization then hired him as its "pastor" for some years;
(3) Stefanelli further apparently claims to have become an atheist about five years ago;
(4) Said organization, as of mid-October 2011, nevertheless still apparently lists Stefanelli as its agent;
(5) and Stefanelli is now claiming Christianity teaches "honor killing"

Item (5) suggests to me Stefanelli has a rather odd background in Christian thinking; and items (1-4) suggest to me the possibility that Stefanelli might have set up a shell-organization in the early 1990s to "ordain" him and then provide him credentials as the "pastor" of a "church." But let us assume, arguendo, that those suspicions regarding (1-4) are all baseless: then my earlier question naturally arises, Did Stefanelli teach "honor-killing" while "pastor" of that "church"?

[laconicsax]

17. And who decides whether they're "odd?" You?

I don't think mods have that authority.

[struggle4progress]

18. Do feel free to shed factual light on the various issues I've raised

[laconicsax]

20. Maybe if you feel like dropping your prejudices. n/t

[laconicsax]

14. Dupe. n/t