With one-armed cross looming over town, Whiteville cross complaint is settled

[cleanhippie]

Citizens in Whiteville, Tennessee, claim that Christianity is under attack. That's because the Freedom From of Religion Foundation (FFRF) wrote a letter to the town's mayor informing him that a privately-funded cross on top of the town's publicly-funded water tower was unconstitutional. The town paid $4,000 to remove one of the horizontal beams of the cross and outraged townspeople are placing crosses in their yards to retaliate.

Roger Alston, a business owner in Whiteville, was so riled up that he started the movement, telling ABC News 24 that "Most people felt like, if they didn't want to look up and see one, then they'll see one everywhere they look." In an effort to saturate the town with crosses, Alston made 150 white crosses and has about 30 left.

"They don't like the cross? Don't look at it," complained Inna Houseman, a resident of Whiteville. "They don't like the cross? Move. That cross has been here for I don't know how many years."

Brannon Lewis, a worker in Whiteville, saw a sinister outcome, telling ABC News that removing the cross was like removing prayer from public schools, claiming that "what's happened to our schools, all the violence and all the gang-related activity that you have in the schools now" is a result of the ban on prayer.

--snip--

"We're looking a little cross-eyed at the mayor's strange action and, his vindictive and unprofessional statements, but we are satisfied, for now, that there is no longer a Latin cross on governmental property," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of FFRF."What is most flabbergasting is the decision by this intemperate mayor to waste nearly $4,000 in tax dollars to essentially mutilate a religious symbol, rather than remove it. A careful administrator would not have indulged in such folly. The town could even have made some money had it auctioned the cross to bidders. We would encourage the town council to investigate the mayor's action."

http://www.goddiscussion.com/83655/with-one-armed-cross-looming-over-town-whiteville-cross-complaint-is-settled/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why is keeping government from promoting a specific religion such a difficult concept to grasp? Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion. You cannot have one without the other. I guess like most conservatives (and some of our "liberal" christian friends as well) they are unable to see some topics in a larger context and will instead work against their own self-interests.

[Exultant Democracy]

1. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door

Why do Christians hate Jesus' teachings?

[rrneck]

2. It's Disaster Capotalism.

The Sunday school ladies were feeling bored and sanctimonious so they decide to put up a cross. They cabbage up some money from the wives of their businessman town father friends and one of them calls her brother in law/ cousin/ uncle/ son/ brother (who is a deacon in the church) to put it up. He pockets the money, the church gets advertising on public property, and the good Christian wives get a pat on the head.

Then somebody complains and the FFRF sends them a letter. The owner of the lumber yard/ hardware store/ farm store/ (another church deacon) makes little crosses in protest and scores advertising points with his God fearing customers. The mayor (another church deacon) gets pissy and pays the guy that put it up there four grand to half ass take it down. Cousin/brother in law/ uncle/ son/ brother Billy Bob pockets the money again and hizzonor the mayor strokes his culturally inbred constituency to get reelected.

And it's all paid for by the taxpayers. Its Carl Rove/ Grover Norquist privatize profit and socialize risk dirty politics 101.

[PreachersKid]

23. Whiteville Cross

Trust me, the mayor is ANYTHING but a church deacon. He does NOT attend church at all and no cross in his front yard, either. He is playing games and I wish people were smart enough to find a way to get him out of office for his total dereliction of his mayoral duties. If Satan were to exist, he would look tame compared to our Hitler loving mayor (that is not a lie, he has openly bragged about it at local parties).
Mayor has been pissing off people lately and this has been a bonus for him to try and get back a big bunch of people who were not planning to vote for him anymore.
There are stories here that makes even big city politics like Chicago pale in comparison. Just listen for those banjos playing... Just remember that some people here who consider themselves rednecks and spiritual are angry but are not of the right group, shall we say, therefore, no power. Sadly, I know why my parents never came back while alive and I made a mistake yet I am going to stay and fight for my family's ancestral place because it once was a decent place until east TN sent us this scumbag.

[rrneck]

25. Good to hear from someone back home.

I was speaking hypothetically of course. I haven't been back for years and I have no plans to return. Goodonya for staying in the trenches. It seems to me it's usually not about religion or culture or God at all, but about money.

[asjr]

3. Most of those citizens are trying

to out pious their fellow citizens. In fact each is trying to let the other notice they are more Christian than their neighbor.

[rug]

4. How is this "settled"?

"The town paid $4,000 to remove one of the horizontal beams of the cross and outraged townspeople are placing crosses in their yards to retaliate."

[cleanhippie]

5. I think they mean that the FFRF is satisfied and has dropped the lawsuit.

That was the course of action the mayor decided to take regarding the matter, and it satisfied the FFRF request. The matter is settled.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. The legal action is settled. There is no longer a cross on a public building

The rest of the townspeople are free to do as they please

[Deep13]

6. Don't like the 1st Amendment? Move. nt

[beam me up scottie]

7. That's cool.

They can dry hump crosses on their own property until they're raptured, I could care less.

[JohnnyRingo]

8. How is "putting crosses in their yards" retaliation.?

It means they miss the entire point by assuming these are atheist vampires who shrink from the very sight of a cross. Do what you want to your private property, it's the government participation that they oppose.

I'm not saying adherents are ignorant, but these people don't help their cause.

[cleanhippie]

11. Because they think it is about the cross, and nothing else.

They are unable to see the issue as anything BUT "anti-cross".

[LiberalFighter]

27. I wonder if they violate HOA's

[humblebum]

9. It may because not everyone has your narrow-minded view of the world.

Cannot make it any plainer than that.

[rrneck]

12. Do you think

that cross should have been on that water tower?

[humblebum]

14. I think that it should not even be an issue. But, the greater consequences

are not that the cross is partially gone, but that skeptic and atheistic groups are cultivating a much more negative attitude, among the public, toward themselves by the day. And, IMO, doing harm to the Democratic Party in the process. As much as you would like, history is not on your side. You still must contend with such things as The National Cathedral, religious carvings in the Capitol, and any number of issues that you think violate the Separation Clause. Good luck in the future. You will need it.

[rrneck]

16. If you don't push back you get run over.

That's how politics works.

Apathy leads to anomie.

[humblebum]

17. There is also smart politics. This is not it. nt

[rrneck]

18. The success of

conservatives began in no small part at the local level. In school boards, town councils, zoning committees and every other civic action people have been duped into supporting everything from blue laws to creationism by churches that are little more than franchise operations for theology producing corporations.

All it took was a letter from an attorney to make them cave, and I doubt the FFRF would have known about if one of the locals hadn't told them.

I was raised about thirty miles north of there. West Tennessee is the armpit of the nation because of people who put crosses on water towers and profit from it.

[humblebum]

19. You're are entitled to your opinion, but this is only one small part

of a much bigger story.

[rrneck]

20. What story is that? nt

[LAGC]

33. I think it has something to do with "other ways of knowing."

Ways that don't require any sort of evidence, of course. ;)

[rexcat]

29. So...

When did the Freedom From of Religion Foundation become part of the Democratic Party or for that matter any atheist or secular humanist group. We atheists to tend to lean toward the democratic party but that is not a given. The reality is there is bigotry against atheists on both sides of the fence. It is easy to see it with the republicans and it is just as easy to see with the democrats as well. Case in point.

Of course any one interested in maintaining, what Thomas Jefferson wrote so elegantly in 1809 to the Baptist, a separation of church and state would like to see no religious carvings, etc. on any government buildings but that is not the reality of the situation in our country at this time but when local, state or the federal government tries to cross that line today they should be called out and the offending religious icons removed.

By the way the National Cathedral is part of the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral Foundation and the Episcopal Church, not the United States Government. :rofl:

I must say, reading your posts brings up images of religious intolerance on your part!

[msongs]

13. exactly, cross lovers narrow minded world view = torture/murder of billions of people nt

[humblebum]

15. they cannot even hold a candle to the murders and tortures under

atheistic dictators, by atheists, and in the name of some atheist group.

[skepticscott]

21. How many murders can you document

that were "in the name of some atheist group"?

Here is the best and most accurate summary of the activities of the most horrific atheist organization, the League of Militant Atheists, provided by you:

The League of Militant Atheists comprised workers, peasants, students, and members of the intelligentsia. Organizations were founded at plants, factories, kolkhozes, and educational institutions. By early 1941, the league consisted of approximately 3.5 million working people of 100 nationalities. The number of groups reached 96,000. Guided by Leninist principles of antireligious propaganda and by the party’s decisions on these principles, the league dedicated itself to ideological struggle against all forms of religion and the development of a scientific world view among working people. It disseminated propaganda on the natural sciences and atheism, offered believers individual counseling, and trained propagandists and atheist agitators. It also published scientific and popular scientific works and a number of periodicals, founded museums and organized exhibitions, and conducted scientific research in the field of atheism and criticism of religion. Working under the motto “The struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism,” the league coordinated atheist propaganda with economic, political, and cultural tasks. The league maintained extensive international ties; it belonged to the International of Proletarian Freethinkers, and then to the World Union of Freethinkers. In 1947 the league turned over its tasks of disseminating scientific-atheist propaganda to Znanie (Knowledge), a newly created all-Union society.

REFERENCES
Konovalov, B. N. “Soiuz voinstvuiushchikh bezbozhnikov.” In the collection Voprosy nauchnogo ateizma, no. 4. Moscow, 1967.
Konovalov, B. N. K massovomu ateizmu. Moscow, 1974.

NO mention of murder, torture, or anything remotely like it. Do you not get tired of being full of shit?

Far more people have died under leaders who were religious, and in the name of religion, as you well know.

[humblebum]

22. Now, show me where I ever claimed that was an accounting of

everything concerning atheism in the 20th century?

You know as well as I do that I have provided all kinds of evidence, but you are in denial regardless of whatever is put before as evidence.

"Far more people have died under leaders who were religious, and in the name of religion, as you well know." - I know that NOT to be the case.

[skepticscott]

28. Laughably pathetic

I ask you to provide documentation of even one murder committed in the name of atheism, and you can't do it.

And you yourself provided that authoritative summary of the important activities of a leading group of "militant atheists", a category that you have claimed over and over again is responsible for tens of millions of murders. And of all the many activities listed in your authoritative summary, NOT ONE is murder, torture, violence, or anything remotely like that. If murder and torture of tens of millions were such a prominent part of the activities of "militant atheists", you'd think those things might get just a teeny mention in there somewhere, wouldn't you? Or in some quote that you could document and not just invent out of thin air.

And please...add up all of the deaths that have occurred throughout history in countries ruled by leader who were religious. Then add up all the deaths that have occurred in the name of atheism. Try that little thought experiment and then report back to us. We both know how it will come out. The only evidence you've ever provided is that a lot of people died in communist countries. Duh. Under dictators who had dark hair.

[humblebum]

31. You seem to have the League of the Militant Atheists on the brain, when they were only a part

of a much greater campaign, although a major component. Your blathering ignorance does nothing to improve your image when it so easy to demonstrate same. There is a mammoth amount of information that has been presented more than once.

"The League of the Militant Godless (LMG), under Emelian Yaroslavsky, was the main instrument of the anti-religious campaign and it was given special powers that allowed it to dictate to public institutions throughout the country what they needed to do for the campaign <40>.
After 1929 and through the 30s, the closing of churches, mass arrests of the clergy and religiously active laity, and persecution of people for attending church reached unprecedented proportions.<62><65>. The LMG employed terror tactics against believers in order to further the campaign, while employing the guise of protecting the state or prosecuting law-breakers. The clergy were attacked as foreign spies and trials of bishops were conducted with their clergy as well as lay adherents who were reported as 'subversive terroristic gangs' that had been unmasked<66>. Official propaganda at the time called for the banishment of the very concept of God from the Soviet Union<67>. These persecutions were meant to assist the ultimate socialist goal of eliminating religion<68><67>. From 1932-1937 Stalin declared the 'five year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country<67>."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/40973100/Persecution-of-Christians-in-the-Soviet-Union-The-Anti-Religious-Campaigns

[rexcat]

30. Wrong again...

No "atheist" dictator ever murdered or tortured anyone in the name of some atheist group. Please name the atheists groups you are talking about. Could it be American Atheists, Inc.; Atheist Alliance International; Atheist Foundation of Australia; Italian Union of Rationalist Atheists and Agnostics; Humanist Association of Ireland; British Humanist Association; Secular Humanist League of Brazil; German Freethinkers League; Indian Rationalist Association; Indonesian Atheists; Atheist Ireland; Philippine Atheists and Agnostics Society; Swedish Humanist Association; etc., etc., etc.

All I can say is the Romans let the world down with the lack of hungry lions at the Colosseum.

[rrneck]

32. Those atheistic dictators

were atheists in the sense that they didn't believe in your or anyone else's God. They believed in themselves and conferred upon themselves, as much as they could, godlike attributes. More importantly, their followers who did all their killing for them responded to them and their ideology as if it were any other religion. Communism and Nazism were religions as much as any other.

[humblebum]

34. If Communism and Nazism were religions then

certainly Atheism was also, if museums were erected inits name.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/norfolkodyssey/376765112/

[rrneck]

35. Whats your point?

One characteristic of a cult is insularity. In a country with many faiths what better way to deny them and turn people's faith toward one's own ideology but to claim atheism.

Nobody was killing because they didn't believe in God. They killed for the triumph of the prolateriat or the thousand year Reich.

[humblebum]

36. deleted

[humblebum]

37. Excuse me, but countless numbers were killed because they

refused to renounce their religion, not because they refused to become communists.

[laconicsax]

38. You mean like what Christians did to other Christians, Jews, etc. for centuries?

:shrug:

[humblebum]

39. Yep. But, a lot more recently and in much larger numbers. nt

[darkstar3]

40. And why were they asked to renounce?

Could it be due to the fact that the dictator in power wanted all fealty, homage, and worship directed at him? Oh no, of course not, that would be historical, not some other way of knowing...

[humblebum]

41. Actually, you don't have a clue. Their reasons for pushing atheism are the same as that of

organized atheism today. The Soviets "promoted atheism in order to do away with religious prejudices and promote a scientific, materialist world view."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/40973100/Persecution-of-Christians-in-the-Soviet-Union-The-Anti-Religious-Campaigns

It is true, of course, that it is much easier to control people as atheists than as believers.

[rrneck]

47. Please.

"It is true, of course, that it is much easier to control people as atheists than as believers".

If that were the case we would have had thousands of years of chiefs, monarchs, and governments motivating people with atheism. Like I said, atheists are cultural anarchists with authority issues.

[humblebum]

49. "If that were the case ... motivating people with atheism." Atheism

or to be more precise, organized atheism, was very rare before the 18th century.

[rrneck]

50. It was rare

before the enlightenment because it's much easier to manipulate people who are believers. Cultures develop along an evolutionary model.

[humblebum]

52. It was rare period. nt

[rrneck]

53. So how do you explain

how people were manipulated with religion for thousands of years before the enlightenment?

[humblebum]

56. I would explain it by saying that,

"people were manipulated with religion for thousands of years before the enlightenment."

[rrneck]

57. Well,

Since you're in an explaining mood, care to take a stab at the question in post 43?

[rrneck]

42. Countless numbers were killed

for practicing the wrong religion. Apostasy has been a requirement on pain of death in many theocracies.o

[rrneck]

43. So tell me...

How do you get millions of people to kill millions of other people because they don't believe in something?

[humblebum]

45. I give up. You tell me. The one thing I do know is that it doesn't take religion

to cause such atrocities. Accomplished totally by declared atheists.

[rrneck]

46. This may come as a shock

but cruel heartless tyrants have been known to dissemble a bit.

It's generally understood that atheists don't believe in a supernatural deity. What precludes them from believing in anything else? Isn't religious practice a collective expression of belief?

[humblebum]

48. We are speaking in broad generalities here, but both the Soviet Union

and China chose state atheism to replace any state religion, IOW total control.

[rrneck]

51. They chose state atheism

to get rid of the competition.

Religion is the opiate of the masses and they didn't use atheism to stop people using the drug. They wanted to control the needle.

They declared "atheist governments" to get people to denounce their various religions then gave the natural and unstoppable impulse of belief in something an outlet that profited them. It's the same story, just different props and players.

[humblebum]

54. Do you have any idea what you are even talking about? nt

[rrneck]

55. Yes. Do you? nt

[humblebum]

58. When the first million are convinced that their beliefs are true

and that the second millions' beliefs are not only untrue but dangerous, anything can happen. And it did, entire villages destroyed, most churches and religious buildings destroyed or converted to other uses, all religious literature banned, millions executed on the spot, or sent to the gulags where most perished, and ....

[rrneck]

60. And what did the first million believe in? nt

[cleanhippie]

61. Would you like to borrow my brick wall?

You are gonna need it to bang your head against when you get frustrated with humblebum's obfuscating, intentional misrepresentations, and willful ignorance. You are NEVER gonna get him to admit that nothing was done because people didn't believe in a god (but did things in the name of a particular ideology which in this case was communism).

But I applaud your efforts. Let me know when you want to borrow my wall.

:banghead:

But I recommend that you use this instead, as it better represents his pontifications...

[rrneck]

62. LOL!

I'd borrow it but I can't promise to return it in usable condition.

It's like playing whack a mole with a tack hammer.

[humblebum]

63. The supremacy of Scientific Atheism over religious superstition. nt

[beam me up scottie]

64. The Supremacy of Scientific Atheism?

How is Scientific Atheism different from Null Hypotheses atheism?

[humblebum]

65. Scientific Atheism was the official name for state atheism in the USSR and later China.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/norfolkodyssey/376765112



Institute of Scientific Atheism, of the Academy of Social Sciences under the Central Committee of the CPSU; established in Moscow in 1964.

The institute coordinates the scientific work on atheism conducted by institutes of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR and institutions of higher education and of the Ministry of Culture of the USSR. It also carries out comprehensive research on topical problems of scientific atheism and religious history. The institute has a graduate school. Since 1966 it has been publishing the collection Voprosy nauchnogo ateizma (Problems of Scientific Atheism).

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd Edition (1970-1979).

[beam me up scottie]

66. So it was an ad campaign.

How many millions were killed by Scientific Atheists and why were they killed?

[humblebum]

67. An ad campaign? nt

[beam me up scottie]

68. How many millions were killed by Scientific Atheists and why were they killed? n/t

[rrneck]

69. So they believed in The supremacy of Scientific Atheism over religious superstition.

How are we to distinguish between belief in god and belief in a classless society or the genetic superiority of Nordic people?

[rrneck]

44. So tell me...

How do you get millions of people to kill millions of other people because they don't believe in something?

[PreachersKid]

24. Whiteville Cross Will Return

The mayor has struck a deal with a wireless company, most likely Verizon since they have a cell tower right next to it, so that they buy the water tower and the town will rent the space to store water and replace the cross in its full form. Kid you not, people. I have been with Verizon for 10 years but am planning to get out of plan.

[rrneck]

26. There y'go.

Disaster capitalism. Privatize public resources and profit from them.

Crooked fuckers.

[struggle4progress]

59. Annie Laurie Gaylor has really mastered the art of moronic soundbite!