Ark. agency investigating whether legislator's state funds promote religion at his preschool

[rug]

BILL BOWDEN Associated Press
First Posted: November 05, 2011 - 2:54 pm
Last Updated: November 05, 2011 - 2:54 pm

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. — The Arkansas Department of Human Services is investigating whether a West Fork preschool operated by a state legislator is using state grant money to promote religion.

State Rep. Justin Harris, R West Fork, called the charge "baseless" and said he was surprised when a department inspector showed up Friday morning at Growing God's Kingdom, the West Fork preschool run by Harris and his wife, Marsha.

The inspector was there to count the number of Scriptures on the wall, among other things, Harris said. Three teachers had posted biblical passages on bulletin boards outside their classrooms, he said.

The inspection took place because a national organization that promotes separation of church and state requested an investigation of the preschool, which receives state grants, said Human Services Department spokesman Amy Webb.

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/504f02a8017d42a0b630b46a098d23e4/AR--Legislators-Preschool-Investigation/

[NMMNG]

1. "State Rep. Justin Harris, R West Fork, called the charge "baseless" "

He said that with a straight face?

[rug]

2. I don't know what's worse.

Having scriptural passages on the wall of a government funded preschool or having a government agent there to count them.

[NMMNG]

3. Then there's that whole

"Christian curriculum plan" thing, and the fact that the school is called "Growing God's Kingdom". I can't imagine how anybody would think it was promoting religion with the $1,000,000+ in taxpayer money it got. :sarcasm:

[edhopper]

6. And who should investigate

a breach in the separation of Church and State. Or do you side with the Tea Baggers about the "evil" Government.

[rug]

7. Do you really want government agents counting verses on kindergarten walls?

There is a thing called a proportionate response.

[edhopper]

8. There should be

no Biblical verses on a Public School Kindergarten wall.

[rug]

9. That wasn't the point of this little subthread.

[edhopper]

10. That's exactly the point.

"I don't know what's worse. Having scriptural passages on the wall of a government funded preschool or having a government agent there to count them."

Who else to protect us from the intrusion of religion into the public sector than the Government.

Having the scripture on the wall is far worse and the Government looking into it is fine.

What was your point?

[rug]

12. It's a rather absurd use of government resources to have agents counting passages on a pre-k wal

I disagree that it's far worse to have those passages than the counting agents.

For one thing, there are far more efficient ways to establish the misuse of government funds than scripture police. Between financial documents, curriculum and lesson plans, and testimony there are far less ludicrous means.

[edhopper]

19. Yeah sure.

Who cares about a violation of the Constitution. It's a Christian nation after all.

[MarkCharles]

11. Yes, no government funds to religious schools or church-sponsored

pre-schools.

You wanna put up Bible verses for 3 and 4 year olds? Don't ask for tax dollars, nor expect you won't have to refund them all, with interest, if you do it with our tax dollars.

You are free to have preschools and nursing homes and everything in between with verses on your walls! That's freedom of religion. Just don't expect taxpayer dollars to come anywhere near you, your preschool, your nursing home, your schools, hospitals, whatever. Those dollars don't EVER directly or indirectly support your religious expression

[rug]

15. Yes! Let's put TSA nude scanners at the doors so these verses can not be smuggled in.

The government has a duty.

[Silent3]

13. Why do I get the impression that your idea of "proportionate response"...

...is simply looking the other way and letting lots of government-funded programs and institutions get away with this shit?

[rug]

14. Probably the same place you got the idea the idea that religion is idiocy.

Rummage around some more. bound to be more impressions in there.

[Silent3]

18. You've only helped contribute to that impression...

...I didn't get it from you in the first place.

[rug]

20. As long as you acknowledge your impressions.

Overcoming denial is the first step.

[Silent3]

25. Why would I have any problem acknowledging my impressions?

What have I denied that I'd have to overcome denial of? You're not on some silly quest to equate having impressions with "other ways of knowing", are you?

[rug]

29. Your subjective impressions may embarass you when they are viewed objectively.

[Silent3]

30. It's a risk I'll take.

:)

[cleanhippie]

33. Well rug, you get what you give.

And you have certainly given plenty of evidence to support the idiocy of religion.

[NMMNG]

16. I don't want religous institutions using tax money to promote religion

I also don't have sympathy for those that break the law then whine when "government agents" show up to investigate. They never seem to whine when "government agents" hand over that money in the first place.

This school has received more than 1 million in tax dollars. You really think it's a disproportionate response for government agents to go in and investigate whether or not they're using the money to push religion (in violation of the law), and to collect evidence of it if they are?

[rug]

17. Me neither.

And I don't want the government agents poking around preschools.

Particularly when there are better ways of investigating.

[NMMNG]

21. Such as?

Obviously they can't rely on the honesty of the people running the place. How else are they going to determine what's going on there.

[rug]

23. As an example, see #12.

(The one replied to with "Yeah sure")

[NMMNG]

28. I've worked many non-profit agencies

The state holds us to certain standards. They don't just take our word for it nor do they just read our documentation. People from various state agencies visit numerous times a year to see the facilities and make sure we're adhering to the myriad rules, regulations and laws. This is just part of doing business when we're in such a business and taking (taxpayer) funds to do it.



So why is it you think religious institutions should be held to a lower standard than secular ones? Why do you think it's such a burden on them--when they're receiving so much taxpayer money--for them to have someone physically come in and check to see if they're following the law?

[rug]

31. I defer to your experience.

However, I did not state religious institutions should be held to a lowe standard. If you're saying these onsite inspections are common in this field, I accept it. Although in this instance, where the issue is religious use of state funds, I think they can make their case on the school's brochure and name alone.

[MarkCharles]

22. Did the preschool kids put the Bible quotes on those walls or did adults who are..

supposed to know the Constitution?

Government is not pulling down the diapers of preschoolers, they are looking on the walls for Biblical quotes put there by adults, getting paid with government funds. Children, adults, different issues, different set of facts.

I find looking at this issue in pre-school classrooms when it involves tax dollars, just as valid as looking at bank board rooms involving tax dollars. Both have supposed ADULTS IN CHARGE!

You seem to attach yourself to the fact that the children here were under five, but the words on the wall were not put there by children under 5. Your vision seems to turn away from the obvious sights, and want to look in kid's underwear.

Strange that you focus more on the age of these children than upon the flagrant infringement of separation of church and state by the adults getting paid here.

[rug]

24. "they are look[ing] on the walls for Biblical quotes"

Really. Don't you see how absurd that is? Talk about embracing a stereotype.

[MarkCharles]

26. No, I see people being paid with taxpayer dollars who have a religious mission. to...

ruin the minds of countless children with more fairy tales, reinforced with threats.

All on my tax dollars? NOPE, not supposed to happen, and should stop tomorrow, and all funds be refunded.

[MarkCharles]

27. I really think you missed the point of the article. You seem to think that

it's the pre-schoolers who run the preschool, and can't even read.

Obviously the stuff on the walls is for the adults who run the place, to be "inspired" to spread fairy tales as "TRUTH" to children.

You seem to miss those points.

[Ian David]

4. Who would suspect a school called "Growing god's Kingdom" was promoting religion?? n/t

[MarkCharles]

5. "ensure that your child feels the love of Jesus Christ while preparing them for kindergarten."

One cannot get into kindergarten without feeling "the love of Jesus"?

Got to get rid of those atheist babies!

[okasha]

32. The state granting agency itself

gets a lot of the blame here. "Growing God's Kingdom" should appear on or near the first line of the first page of the grant application--and its implications should be obvious to any reader who's half awake. Sending in the inspector to count Bible verses looks like CYA to me. The application should have been turned down when it was first made.

[rug]

34. You're right. Here's an update.

Posted on 07 November 2011 By John Lyon
Arkansas News Bureau

LITTLE ROCK — Arkansas preschools that receive state funding are not supposed to use the money for religious instruction, but the state has no procedure in place for making sure they comply, a state Department of Human Services spokeswoman acknowledged today.

Amy Webb said DHS intends to address the issue in the wake of a complaint regarding Growing God’s Kingdom, a preschool in West Fork owned by state Rep. Justin Harris, R-West Fork.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State sent a letter to DHS last week asking for an investigation of whether the school has been using funding it receives from the state’s pre-kindergarten program, Arkansas Better Chance, to fund the teaching of religion in violation of the constitutional separation of church and state.

DHS inspector Kim Chapman visited the site Friday and reported that religious elements are in ample evidence

http://arkansasnews.com/2011/11/07/dhs-not-monitoring-religious-instruction-at-state-funded-schools/

"the state has no procedure in place for making sure they comply"

And apparently norocedure in place to screen the application in the first place.