It is my contention that neither religion nor the lack therof makes one better, moral or ethical

[Taverner]

If the world suddenly stopped believing, crime would still be here. Rape would still be here. Authoritarianism would still be here. Justin Bieber would still be here.

If everyone believed in Christianity/Islam/Bahai/etc. the exact same would be true. Crime would still be here. Rape would still be here. Authoritarianism would still be here. Justin Bieber would still be here.

I am an Atheist. Not a non-theist, an agnostic nor an anti-theist.

You cannot make yourself believe.

There have been many good and moral people who have been Atheists. There have been many good and moral people who have been Theists.

It really doesn't matter.

Just as many theists have invoked theism as their reason for doing good things as have invoked theism to do bad things.

The same goes for Atheism.

Hitler was a Christian. Stalin was an Atheist.

MLK Jr was a Christian. Peter Singer is an Atheist.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

[RKP5637]

1. Makes sense to me. What really drives me up the wall is I've had people tell

me what this country needs is more religion in government. Like that is some magical Nirvana. And with smugness, like they talk with god and have cardinal knowledge.

[safeinOhio]

2. I think

Cultural Humanist answer that.

[Kurmudgeon]

3. We agree! We have free will so we are responsible for what we believe and decide.

Theism is ok as an excuse, I suppose. However, if you won't even follow the tenets of whatever it is you ascribe to, then you're hardly representative of that viewpoint.
However, you can make yourself NOT believe too, no matter what it is.

[Taverner]

4. Ah we disagree there...

I tried to make myself believe. I really did. It didn't work.

So just as I couldn't make myself believe, I don't expect Theists to make themselves not believe...

You are what you is....

[LAGC]

15. If that were true, there'd never be religious converts.

Believers lose their faith and become atheists all the time.

Even some atheists later re-find faith, and "return to the fold" so to speak.

Belief (or dis-belief) isn't set in stone -- given the right conditions and experiences, people's beliefs can and do change.

Otherwise there would be no point debating religion, if people never changed their minds.

[Taverner]

19. Regarding conversions

Usually the typical convert doesn't join a religion because they think the theology is true. IN fact most converts don't really know much about the theology of their new church. That is not to say all converts are this way.

Usually someone joins a church because they like the people, like what the people do, like what they stand for or like the minister/priest/imam/abbot.

I used to be a Christian - several different flavors actually. Raised as a kid in Mainline Methodism, Converted to Evangelicalism out of fear of hell, then went back to the mainline church, stepped down to Unitarianism, and eventually stopped believing. During my Christian days I really tried to believe - I really did. Prayed for it, meditated on the scripture, all of the above. But in the end, I couldn't reconcile the fact that I simply didn't believe.

I think Douglas Adams summed up non-belief perfectly when he said "I am convinced there is no god."

[PETRUS]

5. I agree, and I'm 99.99% sure my (now deceased, career minister) dad would have too.

[AmericaIsGreat]

6. Of course. However...it DOES matter

I've always put it this way: "If religion went away, the world wouldn't suddenly become perfect, but it'd be a great, fucking start." And it would be a great, fucking start. Take away from people the ability to argue based on fictional stories from ancient, desert-dwellers and you inevitably force them to have to look at conflicts from a realistic viewpoint.

Take away from people the ability to claim special knowledge or status because the creator of the UNIVERSE is behind them and you greatly diminish the willingness of the gullible and less educated to believe the bullshit that these people spout and the damage they do.

Of course we would still fight over resources and other things but at least those things are not out of the realm of being resolved with math, science; REAL world evidence and techniques.

Religion is not subject to analysis from these perspectives, so it maintains its ability to be the basis for decisions without having to prove why it deserves that right or why the decisions that come out of it are valid.

It would be a HUGE relief for billions of people to stop living their lives based on mythology that tells them to hate and kill and criticize based on faith in a non-existent entity. A huge relief.

If the Israeli/Palestinian conflict didn't have religion behind it, it would have been solved a long time ago. Well, technically, I guess it probably would have never happened but you get my point.

[Taverner]

7. Take away fictional stories from ancient, desert-dwellers...

And they will find a new way to tell such tales

It just happens

Look at Rome post-Christianity

The polytheists found a way to have their polytheism (the trinity)

The Manicheans found a way to have their dualism (good/evil)

The "Pagans" found a way to have their ritualistic society (see: Vestal Virgins/Catholic Nuns)

[provis99]

8. oddly enough, today my dying uncle just came out as an atheist.

Lives in the Cook Islands, and sent the extended family an email telling how he didn't believe in god, and that religion doesn't change your views on morality. Which I consider ironic, since he was the one who introduced the family to Seventh-Day Adventism in the first place.

[Kablooie]

9. Agreed and stamped with approval. People are people and will behave like people. Period.

[SoutherDem]

10. Without religion you have...

Good people doing good things, and bad people doing bad things, but it is only with religion they you have good people doing bad things.

[Taverner]

11. Stalin seemed to get a bunch of people doing bad things...

And there was no god involved

Yes, I understand it was the "god" of the Khmer Rouge, the "god" of Mao - but in the end, one does not need a god for a good man to do evil...

[Humanist_Activist]

12. I would contend that any unquestionable ideology can have good people do bad things...

whether its religion, nationalism, or political ideologies.

[LeftishBrit]

17. deleted (dupe)

.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Very true!

But strong ideologies can also make people who would otherwise be morally indifferent (rarely actively *bad*, I think) do very good things.

[Humanist_Activist]

28. True, but strong beliefs are different from unquestionable ones....

You should question all your beliefs and the beliefs of others, both internally and externally without fear of reprisal.

[Prophet 451]

13. Agreed with one quibble

I was given to understand that we actually aren't sure where Hitler stood on Christianity, whether he actually believed or used it to control the masses.

That aside, I would agree and I'm a believer (Luciferian Satanist).

[LARED]

14. No one knows for sure what Hitlers black heart believed but

the historical record is clear that Hilter and the SS used religion to further his agenda.

[Taverner]

20. He was a Catholic

Now, in his heart he may not have believed, but that is irrelevant. The Nazi party was very closely tied to the German Diocese. Hitler promoted Christianity, and Catholicism in general. It's all in his speeches, his writings, his policy.

At the same time, Stalin was an Atheist. He tore down historical Orthodox churches like there was no tomorrow. Irony of ironies: before he started a life of crime (he was a petty thief before the revolution) he was studying to be an Orthodox priest.

[provis99]

21. Stalin was not an atheist. He supported the Russian Orthodox Church.

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-birmingham/refuting-the-myth-that-hitler-stalin-and-pol-pot-were-atheists

[Taverner]

26. Revisionism at its best...

He mowed down more Russian Orthodox Churches than anyone...

Don't get me wrong - I am an atheist

Positive Atheist

But don't revise history...

[provis99]

29. name one instance where Stalin said he was an atheist.

You can't because he never said he was an atheist. He made great pains to point out that the state was atheist, and that this was different from individual atheism.

[Prophet 451]

25. Oh, absolutely n/t

[LeftishBrit]

16. I strongly agree...

Any religion or any strong non-religious ideology can be *used* for good or evil purposes.

[cleanhippie]

22. I agree. Religion, nor the lack of it, makes one "moral" at all. But religion CAN be used

asused as a tool of oppression, which it most commonly is.

[dmallind]

23. What is it with contrasting MLK and Singer?

I don't see the same tit for tat there as in the other example.

[Taverner]

27. Singer is a pioneer in ethics

MLK was a pioneer in ethics

[dmallind]

30. Hmmm. Pretty different methodologies and personalities etc, but ok. nt

[qazplm]

24. we all have means for sussing out

our moral lines, for some religion helps do this, others do it without religion. So you are correct, folks would come up with moral lines that work for them, and probably very similar moral lines, with or without religion, or regardless of the type of religion, although I think there is still some variability between various beliefs or non-belief.