No tree for atheist group at courthouse

[rug]

Sunday, November 27, 2011
By JEREMY GERRARD

WEST CHESTER — The Freethought Society is calling for a Dec. 3 rally after its request to place a holiday Tree of Knowledge on the courthouse lawn has been denied for the second year in a row.

Chester County commissioners received a letter last month from Margaret Downey of Pocopson, the president and founder of the Freethought Society, requesting permission for the tree. She was notified last week that the display would not be allowed.

The letter Downey sent contained signatures from 350 people across Pennsylvania, the country and the world in support of the tree.

The Freethought Society, formerly the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia, is a group of atheists with the Freedom from Religion

http://dailylocal.com/articles/2011/11/27/news/srv0000015609256.txt

[NMMNG]

1. Obvious discrimination

The county display last year included Santa in a sleigh, a toy train, banners proclaiming "Peace on Earth" and "Seasons Greetings," and a wreath honoring military service members, as well as a traditional creche and a menorah.

If they're going to allow those things they have no basis for denying the Freethought Society's request, except for bigotry.



When it was first allowed, the Tree of Knowledge was vandalized, and Downey said she had received threats and letters about it.

Typical.

[rug]

2. Assuming the "Season" has achieved a secular meaning beyond religion

what does The Tree of Knowlede have to do with it?

[NMMNG]

3. It has meaning to the group

Not every holiday that occurs during the "season" is religious. Take Kwanzaa for example. If the city is going to allow multiple displays from different groups (which is a good thing) they have no legitimate reason to deny the Tree of Knowledge.

[MarkCharles]

4. Obvious discrimination based upon religious beliefs.

My favorite non-holiday is April Fools' Day, a day dedicated to the trickery and deceit of religious believers.

[trotsky]

7. Not to mention the original "reason for the season" in the first place:

The winter solstice. Don't let Christians think they invented the late December celebration.

[NMMNG]

8. Oh, but they do think they invented it

and that they own it. It's MERRY CHRISTMAS!1!1 Say it! Say it!1!1

[rug]

10. I don't think people's feelings are the criterion.

In terms of a secular tradition I'm afraid toy trains have a greater claim than the Tree of Knowledge.

[NMMNG]

11. In other words,

only things that are affiliated with Christmas, and the occasional nod to Hanukkah, are allowable in a "secular" holiday display. Everyone else might as well FOAD.

[rug]

12. No, I think my original words are very clear.

[NMMNG]

13. Indeed they were

Some people count, some people don't. That's crystal clear.

[rug]

14. Say whatever you want. Just put your name next to them, not mine.

Or maybe Cindy Lou Who.

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. What are their plans for Ramadan?

Seriously - can't everyone just leave everyone else's holidays alone?

Whatever.

[Goblinmonger]

9. Don't put it on public property

and they will leave it alone.

Allow it on public property and you have to let them all. You can't pick and choose which ones get to have a display.

How is that so hard for people to understand?

[trotsky]

18. Aw come on GM, it's just people's feelings.

It's not like it's a constitutional principle or anything.

[NMMNG]

19. Amazing how important feelings are

when they're the feelings of religious people. But as we've found time and time again, some people are more equal than others.

[trotsky]

20. Ain't that the (sad) truth. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

6. I know Margaret. She's spent her own money and spent a lot of time

with very few volunteers to put up the Tree of Knowledge.

I hope she goes to court to challenge this denial.

[NMMNG]

17. It's sad some people so ardently oppose knowledge

Then again, religious types have a long history of it. Seeking knowledge was the "original sin".

[ZombieHorde]

15. The symbol for the courthouse lawn should be gift wrapped, generic, white socks.

The socks would represent everyone's disappointment in each other.

Another idea is to have a giant, electronic billboard with the following smiley on it: :eyes:

[humblebum]

16. If other groups are allowed to put up displays, the Free Thought Society

should be allowed to put up a holiday display if its purpose is not ridicule other groups, but to convey a positive message.

[struggle4progress]

22. Meeting 18 November 2010, the commissioners of Chester county passed resolution 58-10

which apparently limits displays to those owned by the county. I haven't found the text

[struggle4progress]

21. As FREETHOUGHT v. CHESTER COUNTY (2003) is referenced in various blogs re this 'Tree of Knowledge'

perhaps the case is worth a quick look

The case was decided on appeal to the 3rd Circuit, which allowed Chester County to keep a ten commandments plaque on the courthouse -- a decision which rather perplexed and horrified me until I read the opinion:

... The plaque was affixed near what was then the entrance to the Courthouse. It has remained there for over eight decades, but during that time nothing has been done by the County to draw attention to, celebrate or even maintain the plaque. Until a few years ago, visitors to the Courthouse would walk past the plaque on their way in. However, that entrance was closed, so visitors now enter via the modern addition to the Courthouse, some seventy feet to the north. While the title of the plaque, “The Commandments,” is legible to a visitor walking along the sidewalk to or from the north wing main entrance, a visitor would have to climb the steps in front of the former entrance to read the rest of the text. The present lawsuit was brought by Plaintiff Sally Flynn, a Chester County resident who noticed the plaque as early as 1960 but was apparently not bothered enough by it to complain until 2001 ... So the question is, would a passerby (generally knowledgeable about the history of the plaque and Chester County) who walked up the steps to read the text of the Ten Commandments plaque reasonably believe that by declining to remove the 82-year-old plaque, the County was endorsing religion? ... The reasonable observer, knowing the age of the Ten Commandments plaque, would regard the decision to leave it in place as motivated, in significant part, by the desire to preserve a longstanding plaque ... For all the foregoing reasons we believe, in Justice Goldberg’s words, that the Ten Commandments plaque affixed to the Chester County Courthouse in 1920 is today not “real threat,” but “mere shadow” ... http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/021765.pdf

[trotsky]

23. It horrifies me even more after reading the opinion.

I guess anyone who doesn't think the 10 Cs should be posted on public property should just STFU, especially if they've been there long enough and no one else complained. What's a little intermingling of state & church between friends, huh?

[struggle4progress]

24. Apparently the courthouse was built with entrances on two opposite sides, so both

sides of town could feel equally important. But later, it seems, the good people of Chester county completely forgot about that particular issue, discovering (I suppose) newer opportunities for bloviating, better than the question of whether folk facing one aspect of the courthouse could feel slighted that the only entrance was on the opposite aspect. So, finally, one entrance was remodeled as windows rather than doorway, and the grand steps now lead to a wall, where said plaque from the 1920s still remains affixed, together with various younger signage, more municipal in character. Perhaps the privately-funded old plaque might actually have been regarded as constitutional, by the then-existing courts, had anyone challenged it during its early years. But it apparently excited almost no interest post-installation, and for many years subsequent the county seems to have engaged in neither promotion nor maintenance of it. One plaintiff in this case was aware of the plaque for forty years before suddenly taking offense

This instructive tale shows us folk in Chester county bloviating in the 1840s, in the 1920s, and in the 2000s and by induction we might conclude they will still be bloviating in the 2080s

[trotsky]

25. Sorry, I don't believe in a statute of limitations on constitutional issues.

Nor do I consider fighting the encroachment of church into state matters to be "bloviating."

YMMV I suppose, since it's your beliefs that are being promoted. Enjoy for now.

[struggle4progress]

26. Have a nice day

:hi:

[trotsky]

27. Yes, you have one as well!

Make the most of your majority privileges while they last!