Parental Notification: a narrative

[LiberalAndProud]

My daughter got knocked up when she was a senior in high school.

At that time, public schools in my state were required by law to provide students with instructions to obtain an abortion without parental consent. (That requirement has since been rescinded.)

My daughter made an appointment to get the abortion. In order to do so, as a minor, she had to assert to a judge that she feared abuse upon disclosing her condition to her parents.

For the record, neither my husband nor I would ever harm our daughter. Nevertheless, I did not know that she was pregnant and the appointment was made.

I am very happy to report that she had a change of heart and decided to give birth. I am so fortunate! I now have a beautiful granddaughter who started kindergarten in public school this year.

I was heartbroken to learn that my daughter would want to make this decision without first discussing it with me.

Can we discuss waiver of parental notification? A minor cannot seek any other medical care without a guardian's signature, to my knowledge. Why is this medical procedure exempt from this parental protection?

To make my position on Choice clear, I need to add that I had an abortion on my 35th birthday. I believe it was the right Choice for me and my family at that time. My daughter did not make that Choice, and I am glad.

[MercutioATC]

1. What about a girl that was raped by her father?

What about a girl that DID have reason to fear abuse if her parents knew?

I agree with the safeguard, especially if it's approved by a Judge.

I agree that parents have rights as far as their minor children are concerned, but I think there needs to be a mechanism to protect children from abusive parents, too.

[LiberalAndProud]

2. I have seen that girl.

When I first met her she was in foster care. She was unhappy in her foster situation and asked the state to be re-placed with her family.

The last time I saw her she was pregnant with her father's grandchild. She was 14. I don't know what happened to her after that.

CPS had already intervened with this family. There is a record of child abuse in this instance.

Should the law require more than testimonial evidence from a minor in granting a waiver?

[MercutioATC]

3. There's an argument to be made either way.

I'd tend to side with protecting the child. Sure, it'll be abused, but the alternative just isn't acceptable to me.

[Hippo_Tron]

5. That's my concern with parental notification...

If there's no evidence that a child would be abused by her parents, then parental notification should absolutely be required. But if that is the case, then there should be a way for a child to get around notifying her parents.

[Djinn]

6. Why

Unless a parent is going to force their daughter to give birth against their will I don't see the point in notification - what's the benefit.

LiberalandProud's daughter, having a decent relationship with her parents, decided to discuss this with them. If you don't want your parents to know why should they? unless the idea is to force them into being a mother I just don't see the point

[Hippo_Tron]

7. Because in MOST cases, parents can help the situation

They can help their child make the right choice. However, depending on the age and health of the child, I don't think that the parents should make the final decission.

[Djinn]

8. the right choice is one the individual makes

if you mean stop her getting an abortion then that's something different, you can't make that decision for anyone else.

[Hippo_Tron]

9. In most cases I think that the decission should be up to the child...

But I think that there should be a certain age. I'm not sure if a 12 year old is quite able to make that decission for herself, granted I think that a 12 year old giving birth under any circumstances is probably a bad idea for health reasons. In most cases, I agree that the final decission should be left up to the child.

[Djinn]

10. in that case why involve the parents

if you think the child should make the decision do you think telling their fundie parents is going to help them stick to their decision if they want an abortion.

At the end of the day people with good relationships WILL here this stuff from their kids people with bad relationships should maybe have thought of that at an earlier stage.

[One_Life_To_Give]

11. Not Necessarily

people with good relationships WILL here this stuff from their kids

Youth causes many errors in judgment. Teens that I have known would have gone to great lengths to keep from potentially disappointing a parent. Most parents just want to help their child. In the case of a abusive parent, the4 court should look at not just granting the child's request, but terminating parental custody.

[Jackie97]

14. And now you present another problem....

"In the case of a abusive parent, the4 court should look at not just granting the child's request, but terminating parental custody."

Some kids (even almost grown ones) love their parents so much, that there's no way they would risk being dragged out of the only home they've ever known. That would put the kid in a position of not wanting to tell their abusive parent that they're pregnant or tell a judge that they're abused. That could definately lead out to more desperate measures.

Not to mention, some kids might very well lie about their parents to obtain an abortion; not realizing it would lead to their being dragged out of the house.

[MichiganVote]

4. Is it really going to be possible to legislate that teen's talk to

their parents or significant others? If that is possible, then we have truly evolved. If we are going to legislate that teens talk to parents, then it seems to me that parents should also be required to spend time with their teen's and talk with them.

We have the opportunity to truly meet the concrete needs we do have as a society yet it is a laborious process. To try to meet the personal needs of families for these propositions is foolhardy, wastes energy and resources and forces everyone to monitor said legislation.

Sorry, if teens don't want to talk with their families, it is a family issue, not one that the government should become involved in.

[iverglas]

12. what seems to be the problem here?

I am so fortunate! I now have a beautiful granddaughter
who started kindergarten in public school this year.

I was heartbroken to learn that my daughter would want to make
this decision without first discussing it with me.


Ah ... it seems to be that you might not have got what you wanted.

You wanted a daughter who confided in you, you wanted a grandchild (at least when the opportunity presented itself).

Well, you got what you wanted. No problem here.

If your daughter had terminated the pregnancy, you would not have got what you wanted, it appears. And the problem there would be ...?

Sure enough, many parents have their children's best interests at heart, and some parents will even put their children's best interests above their own interests.

Let's make no mistake: a parent who would attempt in any way to force/persuade a teenager to continue a pregnancy she does not want and bear a child she does not want is not acting in the child's interests, s/he is acting out of self-interest. It may be a desire for a grandchild, it may be a desire to control the child's behaviour, it may be a desire for the warm self-righteous glow that saving little Feetie produces. Whatever; it's contrary to a parent's duty to protect the child's interests.

And no, it is not in the interests of a child who does not want to be pregnant and does not want to have a child to pressure or coerce her to do so.


My daughter did not make that Choice, and I am glad.

That's real nice, but what does it have to do with other people's daughters ... or, as we might say, other young women?

Your daughter made her own choice without interference from you. You're fortunate that it was a choice you approved and appreciated. But that really is beside the point. Why is your experience, or anything else one could think of, grounds for permitting -- actually, inciting -- interference in other young women's decisions?

[Jackie97]

13. Here's the problem.

First of all, parents are *not* and I repeat *not* going to get away with trying to deprive their kids of life saving surgery. Some parents would like to do that based on the grounds that medical service is against their religion. However, no court is going to allow parents to do that to their kids.

On that note, abortion can be life saving because it keeps kids from having illegal abortions and it keeps kids from secretly having a baby and dumping the kid in the dumpster.

If you think illegal abortions are a thing of the past, think again. Because of parental consent laws, we still have illegal abortion. This is one case.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0411/17/A01-7649.htm

Basically, the boyfriend beat her up until she terminated the pregnancy.

In reality, MOST kids WILL tell their parents if they're pregnant. Seriously, they will. That's because they know that in the longrun, they can tell their parents if they "screwed up". The rare kid who wants to keep their pregnancy a secret from their parents probably has a darn good reason. Some kids will have the daylights beaten out of them if they tell their parents. Some kids will be kicked out of the house. Some kids, believe it or not, will be coerced by their parents into having an abortion. For some kids, the father of the "baby" is their own father/stepfather/relative/friend of the family/etc. They're already too afraid to report the abuse. Forcing them to do it to obtain an abortion won't help things. It will only cause kids to look for another way out of trouble.

Not to mention, most of these laws have an exemptment for abuse cases. Suppose a parent gets falsely accused of sexual abuse so their kid can obtain an abortion?

If a parent wants their kids to come to them in a time of pregnancy, the BEST way that they can do that is to always have open communication with their kids about sex and other issues. Let their kids know that they can always come to them no matter what. Don't judge your kids as "bad kids" when you discipline them for doing something wrong. That sends them the message that later on in life, they better not do any serious "screwing up". Be open and honest with them about all of the important subjects (including sex and pregnancy). My mother was that way with me. Guess what? I didn't get pregnant. If I had, I would have came to her *because I knew I could*.

I think it's time that parents stop trying to have legislature do what they need to be doing. I think it's the parents responsiblity to make it clear to their kids that they can come to them in a time of crisis, not the government.

I forgot to ask. Would you be in favor of allowing parents to force their kids to have an abortion in the name of parental rights since you appear to be for their being allowed to force kids to give birth?

Hey, parental rights. I notice there are no laws in favor of a parent's right to force an abortion.

[POTGNE]

15. Jackie 97, you make some excellent arguments!

I agreed with every point you made, but most especially the two dealing with sexual abuse. When a girl gets pregnant by her step-father, or biological father, she shouldn't have to get permission from the person who raped her....That's insane. Especially since she'll most likely be beaten or thrown out for outing that person. She's been through enough as it is! Also what happens when a child is so scared of disappointing a parent that they claim sexual abuse to get the abortion and don't consider that it's going to possibly put an innocent parent in jail? Kids are impulsive and sometimes don't consider consequences.....especially true of a kid who has gotten themselves pregnant.....So they may say that they fear abuse or that they were sexually molested without considering the full consequences that it will be investigated and an innocent parent possibly thrown in jail. Kids just don't think ahead like that so it's entirely possible that they will only consider that telling the lie will get them what they want (ie. the abortion) but not think about an investigation.

[Jackie97]

16. Thanks.

I like your sigline btw. I'll have to remember that one.

[politicat]

24. No kid "gets herself pregnant." Can we drop this horrid verbal mangle?

It's basic biology of sexual reproduction: it takes two. Please keep that in mind.

Pcat

[TaleWgnDg]

17. You cite erroneous law, a minor seeking a "judicial bypass"

does not have to assert to a judge that "she feared abuse upon disclosing her condition to her parents."

Instead, a minor must present that she does not want to "notify" her parent(s) and that she is mature enough to make her own decision through the court, or that an abortion is in her best interests to obtain . . . I don't know about your home state of Kansas, but here in Massachusetts, our state allows these pregnant minors a court-appointed attorney (free to her) that represent them in our courts in these judicial bypass proceedings.

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edited to add graphic


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[patomime]

18. You are pro-choice.....

that's within your rights. It was also within your daughter's rights at that time to make the decision she made, but -- as you said you were glad that she changed her mind. I know in your heart you are delighted with your grandchild, who wouldn't be.

In accordance with a waiver -- put yourself in the child's shoes. If you were abused, raped -- then I would want to see a woman's rights protected, period. It may be hard for you to take, but -- if the law requires the minor to go in front of a judge (like it does in most states) -- then she could also be protected by the court in other ways (capture of the abuser, rapist).

When we concentrate on these issues, there are case by case instances, of course. I would still always side with a person's right to choose, and would love to see safeguards for our children - so that if they are abused ----- they can be protected by the courts, even if the parents don't know.

[sariku]

19. I have three daughters

And my view on it is that I don't want the government to force my children to turn to me. I want my children to turn to me because they mean the world to me and I love them more than anything or anyone on this earth.

I think that when we run into a situation where our child did not turn to us, our natural tendency is to blame something else. In this case, it is the parental notification laws. But as with so many other aspects of American life, what we need to do is look at what is going on in the situation instead.

I'm not say that your daughter didn't want to turn to you because you're a bad mum. But I think you should examine why it is that she didn't feel comfortable turning to you. You see, you could get the government to force her to tell you, but there is still an underlying problem if she doesn't want to.

[HockeyMom]

20. REAL Reasons for Notification

I was watching Fox a while back and they had some woman on from some Christian Family Orgainization. She said in NO UNCERTAIN terms that their REAL reason for Parental Notification Laws was that they THOUGHT it would stop ABORTIONS. She ADMITTED they were wrong. "We could never imagine so many grandparents ABORTING THEIR OWN GRANDCHILDREN." I only wish MORE of Americans had heard that woman. Sorry, but as a mother with 20 and 25 year old daughters, THEIR right to be NOT be mother, TRUMPS my right to a grandmother. And my OWN mother said that MANY MANY times back in the 1950s and 1960s. SELFISH, SELFISH people.

[fortyfeetunder]

21. Not only selfish, but stupid

Especially in the case when it's the womans spouse who impregnates the child. That means the potential birth results in birthing the woman's step-child and a grandchild.

[Jackie97]

22. Agreed....

This issue of "Sniff. I wanted to be a grandmother" is really a self-interested cause.

[politicat]

23. I am against parental notification because a young woman is a young woman

first, then a daughter.

It's her body and her life. Not her parents' life. Parents don't own children. (I'm also opposed to withholding medical treatment from minors for religious reasons under the same rationale.) Children are not chattel. It is not appropriate for parents to make decisions for their adolescent children that will damage the child's ability to function. Besides, if she was old enough to get the information, make the phone call, schedule the appointment and seriously consider going through with it, then she's old enough and mature enough to be trusted to make a responsible decision. Seventeen isn't six, though you're acting like it is.

The difference that allows this medical procedure to be exempt from all other minor medical notification laws is that this is practically the only elective procedure that has life-long consequences for not one person but a current person and a potential person, and will endure beyond legal childhood. That takes it out of the realm of having a mole or wart removed. And I'm not entirely sure that your reasoning about medical care is true - my doctor never revealed anything to my parents about my medical conditions unless I agreed. I know that when I was 17, in college in California and needed my medical records sent from AZ to CA, my mother could not get access to them directly. She had to have them sent to the doctor in CA, rather than mailing them herself. Currently, I believe that all medical information for everyone falls under HIPPA.

Your daughter made a choice that worked, for good or ill, for her. I hope that she has managed to get an education and take control of her own life since making her choice. What she chose is very difficult.

However, I'm noting some rather interesting phrases you use, phrases that indicate that you don't or didn't see your daughter as an independent person. You refer to yourself far more than to her. You call yourself fortunate... but how fortunate is your daughter? What has she had to deal with that she would not have had to face had she chosen differently? And even if your daughter and her child lived with you - and may still be living with you for all I know - you're at best a part-timer. Your daughter is the full-time parent. Would she call herself lucky to herself? Not what she says to you - thoughts like that aren't the ones we share with anyone.

And by the way, your phrasing is rather contemptuous - knocked up... what is this, the 50s? You used a derogatory phrase when you used more neutral phrases elsewhere. Perhaps that indicates some ambivalence? Or just contempt?

Pcat

[TaleWgnDg]

25. Heh . . . the OP's assertions reek of incorrect law thus happenings

Heh . . . the OP's assertions reek of incorrect law thus incorrect actual events that occurred within the judicial system . . . as well as the outcome. See, e.g., my above post #17. Derogatory assertions as well as "misstating" legal requirements, what does this say? That the alleged event never occurred?

My guess is that none too many have ever taken the time nor energy to read Roe v. Wade as well as any of the follow-up cases about these issues that are raised. And it sounds like it too. Instead, most are gaming assumptions, conjecture, and other nonsense.

Another point to ponder: what the hell is Roe v. Wade doing in a DU forum entitled "Politics & Issues Forums, Choice & Reproductive Freedom?" At the very least it should, instead, be in a DU forum entitled "women's rights and/or issues" or "individual rights" or "privacy rights!"


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[bleedingheart]

26. If only we parents could get notification before they have sex

not after the resulting pregnancy. ( a bit of sarcasm there...

My daughter isn't old enough for me to worry now...but I have a neice, 16, who I have explained that I can be there for her should she want to get birth control or if something goes awry.

However personally I think that young women should have a safe and easy way of obtaining birth control and abortions without fearing for their safety.