Can a person be "pro-choice" yet be for restrictions on access?

[uppityperson]

For instance parental or spousal notification? Or a waiting period? Or being made to watch an ultrasound?

If someone thinks these restrictions should be in place for all abortions, are they really "pro-choice"?

[Scout]

1. in my opinion, definitely NOT pro-choice

those are all bullshit moves to try to deter or outright prevent women from exercising their free choice.

[paulsby]

4. rubbish

for example, a 13 yr old IS NOT a WOMAN

so, if i oppose 13 yr old GIRLS being able to get an abortion w/.o parental notification, that does not make me anti-choice or "try to deter or outright prevent women from exercising their free choice"

note i would also oppose a law lowering the age of consent to 13

[uppityperson]

6. Yes, it does exactly that. Black is not white. You are anti-reproductive rights.

[paulsby]

9. that's as stupid as saying

i am anti-sexual freedom because i don't support the 'RIGHT' of a 13 yr old to consent to sexual relations

or that i am anti-right to keep and bear arms because i don't believe a 13 yr old should be able to possess a gun w/o adult supervision

sorry, but you are simply spouting rubbish

and 13 yr olds are not women

they are girls

[uppityperson]

11. Define "woman" please. What do you consider nec to be called a "woman"?

You keep saying 13, 14, 15 yr olds are not women, how do you define "woman"?

[Scout]

16. if she shot someone with a gun she didn't own legally, then he'd think she was an adult.

and want to hang her high.

[paulsby]

32. not really

but i wouldn't expect mind reading skills from you.

[paulsby]

33. depends on the case

in regards to firearms ownership - 18

sexual consent - 14

etc.

[uppityperson]

35. You define "woman" as being of a specific age, depending upon a specific activity.

Is this what you are saying? A female is a "woman" at different ages, depending upon what activity they are doing.

There is no other definition to make someone a "woman" other than an age while doing an activity. She would be called a "woman" if 15 yrs old having sex, but a "child" if handling a gun?

ed for typo

[paulsby]

36. i am using it analogously to minor v. adult

but i don't think a 13 yr old female is a woman - period

[uppityperson]

37. Then you should use "minor" vs "woman". First is legal term, typically defined by age, second is

sociological term, typically defined by action (what they do, who they are, etc, not just simply age).

So a female is a child one day and suddenly becomes A Woman the next day on her birthday. Huh.

[paulsby]

38. like many things, it can't be defined precisely

although the law HAS to draw bright lines.

i can state that NO 13 yr old girl is a woman

as for older girls, it becomes more individualized.

my point was that somebody claimed i was trying to usurp WOMEN's rights, and i was talking specifically about the case of a 13 yr old girl that imo should have parental notification

i certainly don't think these people would claim a 13 yr old was a "woman" if she was the victim of sexual predation by a 50 yr old male, for instance

[uppityperson]

39. The law draws age lines for "minor", not for "woman".

A 13 yr old might be defined as a "woman" as well as a "minor", since minor is legaleze and woman is sociological.

I don't think ("these"? meaning whom) many people would consider a 13 yr old not a minor if she was a victim of sexual predation by a 50 yr old man.

OK, so your point is the syntax "women's rights". How about "reproductive rights"? Do you support a pregnant female being able to have the choice to a legal, hygienic abortion without undue restrictions (such as parental notification, spousal notification, waiting period, having to view an ultrasound just in case she didn't know what she was getting into)?

[paulsby]

41. imo, age IS an issue

and in many states the law recognizes that, JUST as it recognizes it in regards to other rights, such as firearms, sexual consent, etc.

so, in brief, i do not think the law should apply equally to a pregnant 13 yr old female as it does to a pregnant 16 or 18 yr old female.

the law balances rights. and there are such things as "parental rights"

the law draws distinction as to age in many areas, including this area.

as another example, if a 18 yr old is raped, we don't contact her parents.

if a minor is raped, by law WE HAVE TO notify the parents (i am speaking LEO's)

[uppityperson]

42. Should "parental rights" trump a pregnant 13 yr old's right to an abortion?

If the parents say "no", then their "rights" trump hers. I see it more of parental responsibilities.

If you can get pregnant, you have the right to terminate that pregnancy without spousal, parental, or other notification or permission.

[PeaceNikki]

43. Exactly!

In the situation I described below, if the young woman was 13, 14, or 15, this guy thinks that she should have been bound to the religious zealotry and abuse that would force her to carry and deliver a baby and marry the father.

Fuck. That.

[paulsby]

44. that's your opinion not mine

imo, if you are 13 yr old, you do NOT have the right to terminate a pregnancy WITHOUT your parent's being notified.

i'm more libertarian than most in regards to stuff like this (pro prostitution legalization, pro drug legalization), but minors do not enjoy the full complement of rights that adults do in other areas, and imo this area is no different.

[uppityperson]

45. So then yes, you are saying "parental rights" trump a pregnant 13 yr old's right to an abort

You are saying that parents should have the right to allow or disallow a minor's abortion.

Why?

[paulsby]

47. i didn't say that

notification does not EQUAL authority to trump her wishes.

please try to read for content next time. hth

[uppityperson]

50. If she doesn't want to notify her parents, yes, they have forced her to bear

If parental notification is mandatory, and she does not want to notify them, then the parent's rights have trumped her right to an abortion.

[paulsby]

53. false

but nice try. i am 100% saying that notification should be necessary, with a 13 yr old

that is not the same thing as saying she cannot have an abortion w/o their permission

hth

[PeaceNikki]

56. Those laws are unnecessary for stable and supportive families, and they are ineffective and cruel

for unstable, troubled families. Such laws cannot transform abusive families into supportive ones, nor can they reduce the alarmingly high rate of teenage pregnancy. Instead, they only add to the crushing problems faced by pregnant teenagers: They create delays that increase the medical risks of abortion and effectively eliminate the option of abortion for many minors. Tragically, those minors in greatest need of confidential medical care are often the very ones whose access to care is delayed." ~ACLU

[paulsby]

59. you can quote the ACLU all ya want

appeals to authoritah are kind of boring, though.

the need for confidential medical care of a 13 yr old must be BALANCED with the rights of a parent of that 13 yr old

[PeaceNikki]

60. Again, the young women who aren't talking to their parents don't because they aren't SAFE to do it.

Why the fuck is it different if she's 13, 14, 15 or 16? If her parents are violent and/or abusive - FUCK their rights. It's her body.

[paulsby]

61. and that's not true in all cases

but you are using your broad brush

what about the 13 yr old who doesn't want her 22 yr old boyfriend prosecuted for RAPE if her parents (and thus, the authorities) fiND out he got her pregnant?

a 13 yr old who is pregnant has likely been RAPED.

she can't legally consent to sex.

hth

[PeaceNikki]

63. Lollipops and gumdrops. Unicorns and rainbows.

[paulsby]

64. facts and circumstances

ever investigate a case where a 13 yr old was raped?

i have

they happen

[PeaceNikki]

66. Ever have an unwanted pregnancy? Ever help an emotionally and physically abused teen find care

and ask for your help to usurp the stupid parental notification laws so she isn't abused and forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy?

I have.

So... there.

[paulsby]

68. exactly. facts and circumstances

rights are balanced.

[PeaceNikki]

69. I get it. You're a man and a cop to boot,

so you really feel morally obligated to protect "girls". But you're very wrong. The parental notification doesn't protect them, it just feeds into your fucking control fetish.

[paulsby]

72. i get it

this isn't just about protecting girls. and 13 yr olds are GIRLS. no quotes needed.

it's about balancing PARENTAL RIGHTS with the rights of children

here's a hint. children have less rights. they can be legally spanked without giving consent. under a certain age, they cannot consent to sex. they can't drink alcohol except when provided by a parent in the home, etc.

you may not LIKE it, but children do not have the same rights as adults

[PeaceNikki]

74. Ah... so FUCK protecting the young women, your parental control fetish takes precedence.

Noted.

[paulsby]

78. you may think minors should have all the rights of adults

neither i, nor the law, agree

your devolvement to profanity and histrionics doesn';t speak well for you

[PeaceNikki]

79. Histrionics? Funny coming from a guy who waltzed into the Choice forum to discuss how he restricts

it.

And, I don't think kids should have all the same rights as adults, I think young women who can become pregnant have a choice in whether they risk their health to carry a child to term.

[paulsby]

81. i don't restrict anything

the legislators do

i didn't realize the choice forum marched in lockstep in denying parental rights

[uppityperson]

82. a cop who complains about a forum "marching in lockstep" about a law. Funny guy.

[paulsby]

87. which law?

there is no law in WA state requiring notification

laws in many other states DO require notification.

i didn't realize the choice forum was limited to those who only agreed with WA law.

and i disagree with LOTS of laws. being a cop doesn't mean i can;t disagree with MJ being illegal, for instance.

i think it should be legal

i don't march in lockstep. didn't realize the choice forum did

[uppityperson]

90. The law about access to abortions. Duh.

[PeaceNikki]

84. You want to restrict the choice of young women of reproductive age.

This isn't the "parental rights" forum. If a young women can get pregnant at 14 she should decide what to do with her body.

[paulsby]

92. in your opinion

not in mine

i didn't realize the choice forum had to march in lockstep

i'm used to, for example, the gun forum, where different viewpoints are accepted.

if you think a 12 or 13 yr old should be able to get an abortion w.o notification, good for you.

i don't.

[uppityperson]

77. Good thing those parental rights don't outweigh a pregnant person's right to an abortion.

Yup, parents can spank their kids. Good thing they don't have a right to being the deciding factor in their kid's abortions (as happens where parental notification laws are).

I like this state. You may not like it, but parents do not have the same rights as their pregnant kids.

[paulsby]

93. i like this state too

but not all the laws

i think mj should be legal

i think the anti-online-poker law is disgusting nannystatism at its best.

i think the ridiculous anti-smoking laws for private businesses (like bars) and that require a 25 ft buffer around the entrance are ridiculous and wrong

i think the cyberstalking law is overbroad and unconstitutional

i like the sales tax vs. having an income tax

i think the constitution and laws that make WA an open carry and shall issue CCW states are good

i think the law that doesn't require notification regardless of age is wrong

etc.

[uppityperson]

70. Ever deal with a pregnant 13 yr old who was terrified parents would find out?

I have. It happens. Mandatory reporting would have made it very very very unlikely she would have gotten the abortion she wanted since her parents would have sent her to a "home" to give birth. Are you old enough to remember "unwed mother's homes"? I am. Had a friend sent there by her parent.

[uppityperson]

67. In which case the doctor reports to police and they take it over.

[paulsby]

71. except the doctor doesn't in many cases

and if the police ARE notified, then by definition, so are the parents

so, if a doctor DID notify, it would be de facto parental notification

[uppityperson]

73. Proof of that assertion is needed. Otherwise is simply an opinion.

[paulsby]

76. proof of WHAT assertion?

dr's are not required under the law in the state of WA to report a pregnant 13 yr old to the police.

i can't cite a law that doesn't exist. iow, there is no law that requires a dr in my state to notify parents if they are told by a 13 yr old girl that she is pregnant.

IF there was a law that REQUIRED notification, i could cite it

by definition, since it's NOT a law, i can't cite it.

hth

[uppityperson]

80. "except the doctor doesn't in many cases".

you: what about the 13 yr old who doesn't want her 22 yr old boyfriend prosecuted for RAPE if her parents (and thus, the authorities) fiND out he got her pregnant?

Me: In which case the doctor reports to police and they take it over.

You: except the doctor doesn't in many cases

Prove that, that "the doctor doesn't" report child abuse "in many cases".

Sure as shit there is no law that requires parental notification. Duh. There is a law of mandatory reporting of child and elder abuse. By legal definition, a minor can be abused as a "child" and need reporting by the doctor.

So, prove "except the doctor doesn't in many cases".

[paulsby]

85. a 13 yr old who is pregnant is not "child abuse" under the mandatory reporting laws

are you really THAT dense?

dr's don't ask 100 questions about "who got you pregnant" when a 13 yr old pregnant girl presents themself

if the kid has bruises, etc. the doctor will enquire into the origins.

if a kid is present, the dr. will not be required under law to determine the age of the impregnator nor report it to police

again, there is NO LAW requiring it, thus i cannot cite a non-existent law

hth

[uppityperson]

88. a 13 yr old who is pregnant by a 50 yr old is. My you are getting uncivil now.

"are you really THAT dense"

tsk tsk tsk

[paulsby]

89. i said in that case

she was pregnant by a 50 yr old

it doesn't therefore follow that she is going to tell her doctor that

[uppityperson]

91. But you think she should tell her parents she is pregnant because "they" will

get the Truth out of her?

Nope, not convincing.

I am done with you. You came, gave your opinion. I have better things to do than continue this with you as your mind is made up, as is mine. We work on different sides of this issue (me the health care provider, you the cop), we hold different opinions on parental rights, responsibilities, and the right to chose an legal, hygienic, accessible abortion if you are pregnant.

Bye.

[PeaceNikki]

46. But it's ok for a parent to force a 13 year-old to carry and deliver a baby?

Bullshit.

ick!!

[paulsby]

48. i didn't say that either

are you able to comphrehend what NOTIFICATION means?

apparently not

[PeaceNikki]

49. You live in an alternate universe. A land of lollipops and gumdrops.

You don't get the fact that notification in many case DOES mean just that?

[paulsby]

54. i live in a world where there is rule of law,

competing interests and rights, etc.

and also where a 13 yr old pregnant girl is evidence of a (at least) b felony

hth

[uppityperson]

51. Mandatory notification means no right to an abortion without notifying

The parental right to be notified trumps the pregnant female's right to an abortion. That is exactly what you are saying.

[paulsby]

55. no, it's not

but if you want to twist my words to suit your agenda, apparently i can't stop you

[PeaceNikki]

52. An ACLU briefing paper states:

"...such laws are unnecessary for stable and supportive families, and they are ineffective and cruel for unstable, troubled families. Such laws cannot transform abusive families into supportive ones, nor can they reduce the alarmingly high rate of teenage pregnancy. Instead, they only add to the crushing problems faced by pregnant teenagers: They create delays that increase the medical risks of abortion and effectively eliminate the option of abortion for many minors. Tragically, those minors in greatest need of confidential medical care are often the very ones whose access to care is delayed."

A study conducted by Planned Parenthood found that 61 percent of minors who had abortions discussed their plans with at least one parent before undergoing the procedure. Of those minors who did not inform their parents of their abortions, 30 percent had histories of violence in their families, feared the occurrence of violence, or were afraid of being kicked out of their homes.

The American Association of University Women states:
"While the intent of such laws is to enhance family communication, the failure to guarantee confidentiality often deters young people from seeking timely services and care resulting in increased instances of sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancies, and late term abortions."

[paulsby]

57. thank you

i have read papers on both sides of the issue and i think those are valid points

i do not think they justify a "no notification" policy for 13 yr olds though

[PeaceNikki]

58. Yes they do.

100%.

http://www.aclu.org/reproductive-freedom/laws-restricting-teenagers-access-abortion

[paulsby]

62. that;s great

and your opinion

not mine

[PeaceNikki]

65. And most medical groups, and the ACLU and compassionate opinion.

Because these laws put teens' health and safety at risk and do not create better families, all of the major medical organizations, including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Society for Adolescent Medicine, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the American Public Health Association, oppose laws mandating parental involvement in minors' abortion decisions.

http://www.aclu.org/reproductive-freedom/laws-restricting-teenagers-access-abortion

[Scout]

12. if your daughter wants you to know, she will tell you. if she has to be FORCED

to tell you then you probably are the last one who should know.

[Hepburn]

14. +1,000...n/t

[paulsby]

20. that's irrelevant

my point is that school officials and medical personnel are "mandatory reporters" in many areas, and should be in this one too imo if she is getting an abortion

also note that a 13 yr old who is pregnant is strong indication that she is a felony victim

parents have the rights to be notified when their minor children are victims of felony crimes

hth

[PeaceNikki]

24. Your naivety would be cute if it weren't so harmful.

Boo!! If you need the law to force your kids to go to you with stuff like this, you're doing it ALL wrong.

[paulsby]

27. this is not about my kids

its about parental rights

here's a hint. i support laws that have NO effect on me.

i even support laws that might personally affect me NEGATIVELY if i think they are just and proper

hth

[uppityperson]

26. Yes, we are mandatory reporters for child and elder abuse.

If it appears this has happened, it gets reported. It is illegal to report an abortion to anyone without the patient's consent.

Abortions are different from abuse.

Still waiting on your "woman" definition

[paulsby]

29. for the purposes of abortion

i would use the 16 delineator.

iow, 16 or above, no notification necessary

this is simialr to sexual consent laws. where with 14 and 15 it is legal as long as the other party is within a certain # of years

and again, a 13 yr old CANNOT legally give consent in WA, so it absolutely should be a mandatory report

if there is a pregnancy in that case, there was a crime

i am ok with 18 as definition of woman, for the purposes of firearms possession. which is the law here

[uppityperson]

34. You define "woman" as being of a specific age, depending upon a specific activity.

Is this what you are saying? And a female is a "woman" at different ages, depending upon what activity they are doing.

I find if I am unsure and double check, it saves more time and energy than simply assuming I understand when I don't. Thank you.

[peacebird]

21. exactly.

[Hello_Kitty]

95. Most girls do tell a parent, and are often accompanied by one for the procedure.

The ones who keep it a secret probably have a damn good reason.

[uppityperson]

18. I am waiting for your definition of "woman". Funny your equating reproductive health care with

possessing a gun.

I'll give you a bit more since perhaps you are doing some serious thinking with your answer. It would be good to know what you feel defines a "woman", give me more of an idea where you are coming from.

[Scout]

7. and if her parent is the father of her fetus? you want to tell him then?

if she's "woman" enough to be pregnant, she needs to be able to make her own decision, not sent home to some asshole right-to-lifer parent and be forced to squeeze out a brat.

[PeaceNikki]

8. Exactly!

Parental notification happens when there's a relationship with parents. A young woman who chooses NOT to notify her parents make this decision very wisely.

[paulsby]

10. no. and states that have laws that allow surrogate

guardian notification in such cases

a 13 yr old should not be able to make such a decision w/o notification any more than she should be legally allowed to consent to sex (hint": she can't) or possess a firearm

13yr olds are not women

hth

[uppityperson]

13. You may not think a 13 yr old "should" be able to make this decision, but they actually can and do.

[paulsby]

30. and in many states there is mandatory notification in such instances

and i agree with those laws. i disagree with WA's law.

[Scout]

15. and they aren't a vessel for some jerk's seed either n/t

[PeaceNikki]

19. No way.

Real life example of parental notification: a 16 year old (a month away from 17) approached me and asked for my help. She couldn't go to her parents because they are fundie nutbags. Bad people, abusive and insane. She knew that they would force her to keep it and how they'd treat her. How did she know? She was watching them do it to her sister. So I helped her. My choices were to lie about being a blood relative or take her across state lines where there is no parental notification, no ultrasound required by law (additional $100) and no consult and wait period. I did the latter.

Young women tell their parents if they know that they can be trusted to HELP. They don't tell them and need resources when they can't. Parental notification happens naturally when it's safe. Laws forcing it are dangerous and harmful to all.

[paulsby]

31. that;s your opinion

also, i support that there should not need be parental notification, for 16 and over as stated elsewhere

[PeaceNikki]

40. No, it's fucking reality.

[Hepburn]

2. Those kinds of restrictions?

No, IMO, NOT pro-choice.

[katandmoon]

3. No.

[David__77]

5. In those cases, they oppose reprodutive rights.

I think the term "pro-choice" is only helpful from a very high-level perspective. The key is that women should have control of their bodies. When that was brought front and center, many more said they favored NO restrictions as opposed to today. We were in comparatively better shape in about 1990, prior to the Clinton talk of "safe and rare" that left progressives ideologically disarmed and politically passive.

[Hepburn]

17. I just visited the Choice Topic Forum...

...:wow:

Talk about an invasion of the anti-choice forced birthers! So many threads seems to have a lot of granite pizzas!

[uppityperson]

22. yeah, there is a reason for

the pro-choice group.

[Hepburn]

25. Wow...

...please say that TWICE!!!

What a bunch of women-hating trolls invade that forum.

[radical noodle]

23. Of course it's not pro-choice

What's the point? That women aren't smart enough to make this decision without having someone try to talk them out of it? Having an abortion is a painful decision and doesn't need to be made worse.

[rocktivity]

28. If you want to wait, get permission, or watch an ultrasound, go right ahead

it's your choice.

But that doesn't mean it should be everyone else's.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[PeaceNikki]

75. No. I support removing ALL restrictions. Women and their doctors can be trusted.

[stray cat]

83. Who is to say what a person can believe? The arrogance to think for everyone else in the world

[uppityperson]

86. What? Asking for opinions is "think for everyone else in the world"?

[uppityperson]

94. If a person thinks abortions should be possible only with the Consent of someone else,

I don't think this is "pro-choice" either.

[Bradical79]

96. Honestly, I don't think either or those make much sense.

For a "waiting period", I don't see how waiting and allowing the fetus to develop more fully would help someone make a "better" decision. In my opinion, the sooner you get an abortion, the better.

As for parental notification, I don't know the statistics, but a 13 or 14 year old who got pregnant is probably more likely to come from a less than caring home. Not true for every case of course, but better safe than sorry, don't you think? Also, I would worry about young teen girls getting even more frightened and seeking out more unsafe methods of aborting. If you want your daughter to consult you first, I think the most realistic and least harmful method is to raise them in an atmosphere conductive to that kind of openness and hope for the best. Some parenting issues are just going to be difficult and you can't rely on government legislation to solve them for you.

I'm not entirely sure what side of the fence to land on in regards to abortion as a moral issue, as defining exactly when the fetus becomes a full fledged human being doesn't even seem clear to scientists and experts, much less people like me who received a pretty bad science education, but I don't see forcing a waiting period or parental consent as being particularly helpful to the majority of pregnant teens. Just seems like possibly sacrificing the health and well being of the daughter for satisfying an emotional need of the parents.

And I understand why a loving caring parent would want to know about their child's pregnancy and think parental notification is a good thing, but despite living in 21st century America, there's still a surprising number of cavemen out there perfectly willing to use pregnancy as means to basically enslave a girl/woman, and keep them from gaining education and any kind of meaningful career.

[Name removed]

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