'No foetal pain before 24 weeks' (BBC)

[eppur_se_muova]

By Branwen Jeffreys
Health correspondent, BBC News

There is no new evidence to show foetuses feel pain in the womb before 24 weeks, and so no reason to challenge the abortion limit, doctors say.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists' review said foetuses are "undeveloped and sedated".

Brain connections are not fully formed, and the environment of the womb creates a state of induced sleep, like unconsciousness, they add.

Anti-abortion campaigners are likely to challenge the reports.

The issue of whether a foetus of 24 weeks or below can feel pain had been raised in the debate over whether the current time limit for abortion should be reduced.
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more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10403496.stm

[Crunchy Frog]

1. As I posted on an earlier thread, I'm extremely skeptical about this claim.

I'm completely pro-choice on abortion, but I find these attempts to mark a cuttoff point at which a fetus doesn't feel pain to be arbitrary and unscientific.

I've seen all kinds of gestational ages posited for when they can feel pain, and it all claims to be scientifically based. I've seen 28 weeks cited many times in the literature, even though many preemies who are earlier than that are saved in NICUs, and pain control is now considered necessary for them. A nurse who posts on DU was confidently stating in some thread that they don't feel pain before 36 weeks, therefore denying that my own babies born at 33 weeks could feel pain in the NICU, even though they certainly acted like they felt pain.

Actually, for most of the last century, the medical consensus was that full term newborns couldn't feel pain, and they were routinely circumcised or even given major surgery with no pain control at all. There's even some "expert" out there who claims that babies can't feel pain prior to one year of age.

I'm just very, very skeptical. Something is not a scientific fact just because it is convenient for our political agenda.

[shaayecanaan]

3. I agree...

there seems to be disagreement on the particular issue of whether a foetus can feel pain. I am also in favour of abortion, but this is really a situation in which the cautionary principle should be followed. Even if they sever the spine of the foetus prior to a d&c, at least its something.

[Warpy]

8. The brain structures to receive pain signals and interpret them as pain

are simply not there. They might even remain undeveloped until after birth, since the birth process itself would be extremely painful and would send a fully pain receptive fetus into shock.

What is there is the spinal reflex loop, that mechanism that causes us to jerk a finger off a hot surface long before we feel the "ouch."

It's a reflex. But it's not pain. Get it?

[Jax]

9. Thank you Warpy

I doubt they want to "get it".

Thanks again! :thumbsup:

[uncommon]

10. That is a very good point - I think we would see more babies dying of sudden heart failure from

shock during birth if the ability to feel pain were fully functional at that point. A baby's brain is still developing after birth - it would make more evolutionary sense for the ability to feel pain to build gradually.

That said, I have seen babies in at least what appears to be pain. But not newborns.

[Crunchy Frog]

12. That's an attractive sounding theory, but

I have found no actual evidence to support it, and it is contrary to current medical consensus. http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;118/5/2231

I have seen newborns in pain. Of course I was hanging around a NICU for 3 weeks with my twins.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. Any references for that?

Because I've read quite a bit of recent medical literature on the subject and simply can't find anything similar to what you're claiming, at least not for fetuses any older than 27-28 weeks.

[uppityperson]

14. Do you mean the spinal reflex loop?

The neuro-impulses go to spine and back, not to the brain. The positive thing is if you do something like put your hand on a flame, the reflex (to spine and back) is much quicker than to brain and back.

They are completely involuntary actions and very interesting. Someone with a spinal injury may not feel (for example) their feet, but if something bad happens to a toe, the leg may very well jerk as a reflex. Or if, for example, a paraplegic gets his/her big toenails removed. This can be done without anesthesia because there is no sensory nerve to brain, but the foot keeps pulling away reflexively because the "OMG TOE" to spine and back to muscle nerves are still there.

How can infants survive being born without going into shock from the pain? Something I've wondered. And what about that drug some people (kids) get before surgery/tooth stuff (sorry I can't remember is called but remember about it) that makes them not remember the pain? If you don't remember, was it pain? If your spine is cut and you can't consciously feel it, is it pain? All interesting things to ponder.

[Crunchy Frog]

15. Yes, but are we really certain that normal birth is that painful?

Painful in the same sense that being cut with a knife is? Is screaming part of the spinal reflex loop? What about learning that the scent of alcohol precedes a needle jab and screaming at the scent?

There have been some pretty definitive studies done demonstrating the existence of pain in neonates, even premature ones. That's why it's no longer standard practice to do major surgery on such infants with no anesthesia.

And I'm not concerned about this issue as it relates to abortion. Almost no abortions are done at that stage in fetal development. I am very concerned about how babies are treated that have already been born. I am very glad that my premature babies were not treated as though they were insensate and that their pain was taken seriously while in the NICU.

I think this area of inquiry is a very interesting one. I'm planning on going for my RN in the near future and hope to be able to learn more about these issues and the latest research.

[Crunchy Frog]

2. I find Dr Derbyshire's views to be extremely dubious.

Basically he claims that the fetus, whatever its stage of development, due to the chemical cocktail in the womb, is essentially in a state of complete anesthesia and continuous sleep. First of all, if these chemicals in the womb are such an effective anesthetic, then why aren't they copying them and using them for adult surgical anesthesia? Second of all, if fetuses are continually asleep, then why do they have clear sleep-wake cycles, with brain waves to match? In any event, I would need more evidence then just his assertion.

I just don't think you can say something is true just because you want it to be and it fits your agenda.

[StarsInHerHair]

13. got any links for that brainwave claim?

nt

[Crunchy Frog]

16. How about this one?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090413185734.htm

[stray cat]

4. What did the fetus say when she or he was asked?

[uppityperson]

5. 24 week old fetuses can not talk.

[HockeyMom]

6. I have heard pro birthers say

that once the heart starts beating, around 5 weeks!!!!!, the EMBRYO can feel pain. These people must have flunked HS biology. Mammals don't feel pain, or anything, with their hearts but with their BRAINS. If there is no brain function, there can be no pain.

On this point I would go with SCIENCE and not RELIGION.

[Name removed]

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