Question for GLBT DUers re: the MHP article.

[MNBrewer]

All this kerfluffle over Melissa Harris-Perry's article about President Obama has me thinking.

IS it racist to expect him to be more sympathetic to the plight of GLBT people because he's black?
Is it racist to expect the black community as a whole to be more sympathetic?

I think that black people SHOULD be more sympathetic to the plight of GLBT people because both groups have a history of oppression. Is that racist?

Likewise, GLBT people SHOULD be more sympathetic to the people who experience the effects racism. Is that homophobic?

I'm wondering if this is a lose-lose conversation.

[racaulk]

1. You pose some thought provoking questions.

I don't have any good answers, but what you're asking is definitely food for thought.

However, I do know that I have known gay people who are racist and African Americans who are homophobic. Suffering one kind of oppression due to being a member of one minority does not automatically make you aware or sympathetic to the oppression suffered by other minorities. I wish that weren't true, but that seems to be a reality. I think the key in overcoming this is continued dialogue where all parties come to the table in the spirit of mutual respect and with a willingness to listen to one another. We have to all understand that the only winners in the "Oppression Olympics" are those in the majority.

K&R

[nashville_brook]

2. the novel definition MHP uses for racism is that Obama is being treated unfairly b/c

he's supposedly being held to a higher standard than a white president. that, asking this black president to work on issues of civil rights is oppressive. i doubt that if Harvey Milk were president, would he argue that expectations that he work for GLBT rights were oppressive.

i think it's fairly obvious that these are not workable definitions of oppression, and that the entire argument is a form of progressive shaming - providing the occasion to post photos of famous progressives with signs saying "I'm a racist." by this definition of racial oppression, no person of color should ever be expected to work for civil rights, and no GLBT person could be expected to work for civil rights is a form of gender preference oppression.

more mainstream definitions of racism look like this: holding pre-formed negative opinions or stereotypes about a group or category of people, or treating people badly or unfairly because of their group membership or social classification.

i would argue that expecting the President of the United States to uphold civil rights for all people is part of the job description of President, and that Democrats who are eager to jettison this expectation of Obama would be wholly outraged if a white president unilaterally decided that upholding civil rights no longer needed to be part of his/her job.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Having higher expectations of someone by virtue of their race is the opposite of racism. n/t

[dsc]

4. No it isn't

To take a well known example Archie Bunker was indeed anti semetic when he wanted a Jewish lawyer since they are all good lawyers.

[MNBrewer]

5. So my expectation that Barack Obama would be BETTER on GLBT issues

than he has been (because he was black) was anti-black?

[yardwork]

11. I agree with dsc that anytime anybody expects somebody to behave a certain way

based on the perception that they belong to a certain group - we're getting into prejudice and stereotyping.

It's racist to expect any black person to act a certain way or hold certain beliefs just because they are black.
It's homophobic to expect any gay person to act a certain way or hold certain beliefs just because they are gay.
It's bigoted to expect a southerner to act a certain way or hold certain beliefs just because they live in the south.
It's antisemitic to expect a Jewish person to act a certain way or hold certain beliefs just because they are Jewish.

Whether the expectations are positive or negative, it's still unreasonable to judge an individual based on their belonging to some group.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. I think we're confusing stereotyping with racism

Racism: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races

[nashville_brook]

9. to say that fighting for civil rights is a "higher expectation" of a POTUS of any race is absurd

[Behind the Aegis]

6. No, it is not racist. Short-sighted perhaps.

By the same logic one would expect those groups to be supportive of women's issues and rights, and vice versa, but that just ain't the way it is. Some cling to their "victimization" as a "specialty," and, in a sense, it really is. So, identifying with the "other" can be problematic, at best, and openly hostile, at worst.

[TheWraith]

7. Exactly what I was thinking. Not racist, but unrealistic.

Being a member of a "suspect class" does not automatically cause one to empathize with every other "suspect class." It's just not the way people work. Maybe it should be, but it's not.

[yardwork]

13. I think it's racist. See my arguments in this thread.

[Jamastiene]

8. It truly depends on who you are talking to.

I've noticed that some black people do really care about GLBT issues. Some do not care about GLBT issues. Some black people ARE GLBT. Then there are those who are in between. It all comes down to the individual.

I, however, would not expect ALL black people to support GLBT issues, because experience has taught me that some black people plain flat out hate GLBT people, simple as that. Same with some racist GLBT people I have met. There is no talking to the ones who hate, on either side, honestly.

The ones on the fence and the ones who already support each other are the ones to work with. It still comes down to the individual. I've met all types of black people and GLBT people. You never know what to expect until you get to know the individual.

You really cannot expect all of any group to feel a certain way though. You would be setting yourself up for disappointment if you let your expectations get that high. No group of people is monolithic.

[yardwork]

12. Well said. We can fight for equal rights for groups, but we have to treat individuals as individuals

It is racist to expect every black person to believe or act a certain way. Saying to a black person that they should be in favor of equal rights for other minorities just because they are black is racist. It just is.

We are on stronger ground when we say that we believe that EVERY person must fight for equal rights for all. Everybody has a stake in making sure that everybody else is treated equally.

When you think about it, putting all the expectations of fighting for equal rights on minorities lets the majority off the hook. Should a black person be MORE involved in fighting for equal rights than a person who has benefited from privilege all their lives? I would argue that the privileged person is the one with the moral burden to do more.

[MNBrewer]

15. So expecting GLBT people to vote a particular way, say for Democrats

is "GLBTism"?

[yardwork]

16. I think that everybody should be expected to vote Democratic.

[MNBrewer]

17. That kind begs the question though

Are we appalled by the LCRs and GOProuders? Is that Sexual Orientationist?

[yardwork]

18. I'm appalled by LCR and GOProud for lots of reasons.

I get your point. Do you see mine? It's kind of a fine line sometimes, but the line is clear. If we're expecting an individual to behave or believe a certain way just because of our perception that they belong to some group, then we're crossing the line.

[joeybee12]

14. I think any inority group should be more sympathetic to the situation/plight

of any other minority group...you would think this would be common sense...that people who have been oppressed themselves can recognize it in others more readily.

[Prism]

19. It's not merely his skin color that drives LGBT expectations.

My problem with him on the racial front, in a nutshell, is that his very existence is due to an interracial marriage that large parts of the country opposed and the Supreme Court ultimately had to strike down the last of those bans in Loving v. Virginia.

When your own parents' marriage was subject to hatred and bigotry, yeah, I do expect you to know better. I certainly do not expect you to invoke states' rights segregationist rhetoric.

Now, I think we know fairly well that he merely opposes gay marriage out of political calculation (which makes it actually somehow worse in its cynicism. "Sure, I'll add to your family's misery for my own career, no problem!").

But I don't think it's racist or privileged or unfair of me to look at his background, look where he came from, and think "You know better. Shame on you." Because I know he knows better.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. +1

That's my issue with him as well...

[nashville_brook]

21. +10000