(The Problems With) "Well, It Worked for Me!"

[HuckleB]

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/well-it-worked-for-me/

"Understanding the various aspects of the placebo effect is now a priority for proponents of science-based medicine. Now that for many modalities the evidence is in and is largely negative, proponents are exploiting the general lack of understanding of placebo effects to claim that their modality “works” as a placebo. Even skeptics may have a hard time understanding some of the counter-intuitive aspects of placebo effects.

...

This is a common question – if a treatment “works”, even though it is just a placebo effect, isn’t that still a worthwhile effect.

The answer is – it depends, but mostly no. The problem is in the assumption that because one is feeling better the treatment worked. This is the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. We do not know what the subject’s headaches would have been like had they not received acupuncture. It’s possible they were destined to improve in any case.

...

Placebo effects are largely an illusion of various well-known psychological factors and errors in perception, memory, and cognition – confirmation bias, regression to the mean, post-hoc fallacy, optimism bias, risk justification, suggestibility, expectation bias, and failure to account for multiple variables. There are also variable (depending on the symptoms being treated) and subjective effects from improved mood and outlook.

..."


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In case it's of interest to you...

:hi:

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

3. These were responses to a flawed article in Wired a couple years ago...

They do a good job of covering it at length, IMO.

What is the Placebo Effect, and is it getting stronger?
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/09/what_is_the_placebo_effect_and.php

Placebo is not what you think it is
http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2009/09/placebo_is_not_what_you_think.php

Despite centuries of investigation, scientists still have much to learn about the origins and meaning of the placebo effect
http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/overhyped_placebos_of_doom/

[HuckleB]

4. Also, I just noted that the initial response was deleted.

I'm quite confused as to what the problem with that post was. Something is very odd at DU, right now.

[xchrom]

2. recommend

[HuckleB]

5. Thanks.

It's a fair piece, IMO.

[CanSocDem]

6. The War on Placebo's.

It's taking its' toll on you, isn't it?

"Placebo effects are largely an illusion of various well-known psychological factors and errors in perception, memory, and cognition – confirmation bias, regression to the mean, post-hoc fallacy, optimism bias, risk justification, suggestibility, expectation bias, and failure to account for multiple variables. There are also variable (depending on the symptoms being treated) and subjective effects from improved mood and outlook."

Replace the word "Placebo" with 'Disease' and you will discover why placebo's work. Your pharmaceutical industry with its' fear mongering, advertising and medical industry support are the ones creating "illusions"...

Obviously, the industry has known this for decades. When it comes to public health, the only people objecting to 'placebo's' are those making money from pharmaceuticals. And "public health" is the last thing on their minds.

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[HuckleB]

7. That's one bizarre post you've offered up there.

I do love the drama of your post title, btw!

[CanSocDem]

8. Red herring

But then this whole discussion is over your head isn't it?

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[HuckleB]

9. You actually believe that, I'm sure.

Unfortunately, for you, the opposite is true.

Sorry, but surreal word replacement magic tricks, anger and yelling "Big Pharma!" doesn't replace knowledge and logic. (And I know you believe you have knowledge and logic on your side, but that means you continue to ignore the vast majority of the evidence before you, and, well, that's just a start.) Further, asking someone to waste their time on a response that you won't actually address (as your history has shown) is really disrespectful, to be kind.

[CanSocDem]

11. ???

"You actually believe that, I'm sure......Unfortunately, for you, the opposite is true."

I don't believe it.....??????

It's hard to respond to gibberish.

"Sorry, but surreal word replacement magic tricks, anger and yelling "Big Pharma!" doesn't replace knowledge and logic."

Harder yet to respond to outright fabrication.


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[HuckleB]

12. Oh, the irony.

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

14. "It's hard to respond to gibberish." Nice projection there!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CanSocDem]

15. Who IS punishing you...????

Is it me? MY beliefs affect you that deeply??? Your profanity notwithstanding, you liken me to a 'religious zealot' presumably, the antithesis to your world.

YOUR world requires pharmaceuticals. Mine doesn't, simple as that. I was sick. I got better....without pharmaceuticals.

This is a forum on "health".

If you think my message is about "positive thinking" then you haven't been paying attention. It's about taking control of your health. More like taking BACK control of your health. Sadly, industry and the nature of 'consumerism' has brought you to this point where a pill can make you happy.

So you see, the pharmaceutical industry is not a casual observer. If you represent their interests I already know that my beliefs are offensive to you. You've made it clear before. But, on the other hand, if you're here(DU) to discuss "health" you should have the manners not to describe opposing viewpoints as "ignorant horseshit". In my experience, it is un-becoming.

I also cut you a lot of slack because of your residency in a free market health care system. I understand their hold on you. You almost have no choice.

However, I'm not peddling 'holy water'. But if it works, I'm all for it. My interest is in WHY it works.

I don't deny that there are people out there who are deeply committed to the belief that their high priced pills are absolutely critical to their existence. There is a lot of cultural reinforcement for this idea. Like, and for all other people including the religious zealots, who have the right to believe what they want.I happen to believe that there are other things more 'critical to their existence' than the pills they take.

That shouldn't make you crazy.


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[Odin2005]

16. I get it, You create your own reality, just like the Neo-Cons.

:eyes:

There is no "my world" and "your world", there is ONE world that follows laws of nature that can be studies by science.

Just because Big Pharma can be unscrupulous does not mean the drugs are useless. And the "Alternative Health" industry is just as unscrupulous as Big Pharma. At least Big Pharma's stuff, like the Ritalin and Paxil I take, works, unlike "Alternative Health" woo.

[CanSocDem]

17. You still don't get it.

Your world is most definitely not my world. The people you know, the books you read, the day to day events that you experience and the conclusions you draw from these events, make up YOUR world. I'm sure it all makes sense to you. I know that you made an honest effort to understand the people, the books and your life experiences. If you're happy with what you've become, by all means carry on with what you're doing.

If you get to a point, like I did, where NO outside institution or school of thought can give you the answers you seek; no church, no doctor, no magic medicine.....you can make another personal choice.

Either you blame your condition on outside forces, against which you feel powerless or you continue looking for the answers to your questions. It eventually gets around to your personal perception of the world. That's where everything seems to begin. One hundred people will give you 100 reasons why things are the way they are. Are you going to dismiss them all?

I think modern science is being disingenuous to use the so-called Laws of Nature to prop up its' pronouncements. They're the ones busily writing the 'laws of nature' so of course they'll find lots of compatibility.

And just so you know, I'm not letting 'the church' off the hook. They are perhaps more guilty of dis-empowering the human spirit than even, modern medicine. But again, it's wherever you have been taught to look for the answer.


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[Odin2005]

18. There you go again with the "create your own reality" nonsense.

Things are either true or false. There is no such thing as "true for me" and "true for you" except in art and food preferences.

[CanSocDem]

19. OK...I'll play.

ModernMedicine and the church are dangerous to humans. Is that true or false?

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[Odin2005]

20. The first is false, the sencond is true.

5 of my grandfather's siblings died as infants because of infection diseases that are now PREVENTED BY VACCINES. My grandmother walked with a limp all her life because of Polio, which can be prevented now by a vaccination. They did not have antibiotics back then, either.

[CanSocDem]

21. Whatever....

..it was a rhetorical question. I already knew your answer.

And the anecdote about the tragedy in your grandfathers life is too far removed from MY life to have any effect. My ancestors were exuberantly building a new life out of raw nature, far from the nearest doctor or fancy, brand name amphetamine.

We both made it this far so it goes back to what I said earlier: you're taught where to go for the answers.

I like "exuberance"!


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[HuckleB]

10. That's a lot of unrecs.

I guess folks don't want to think that they might be getting fooled. It's odd.