I don't think poverty causes crime.

[Kire]

Bill Maher, and many of his liberal fans, thought he caught Ann Coulter being a stupid hypocrite Friday night because she didn't agree with him that poverty caused crime. She didn't explain herself, so I'm not saying I agree with her reasons. I don't even know if she's not being stupid, or if she even has a reason. But, I want to do a little analysis of my own and share it here.

Poverty absolutely does not cause crime. I am reminded of an email I received from Sojourners (the Jim Wallis group of "Christians for Peace and Justice") just the other day, about the best way to combat poverty being voluntary poverty.

Choosing to live in poverty, like the nuns and the monks do, frees up the resources for the people who are driven to poverty by external circumstances - people who did not get the chance to choose poverty. People who are not ready for it.

Here's a link to the whole article about the concept of voluntary poverty (registration required):
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9507&article=950732c

Anyway, my theory is that poverty is related to crime but in exactly the opposite way. Crime causes poverty. All crime is about getting something stolen from you. Something necessary. If it's your name, your property, your innocence or your life, you are a victim of a crime and the consequence is poverty.

Now, how is it that poverty appears to cause crime? This is the insidious part. When you see poverty in an area, you know (if only sub=consciously) that crime has been there. Now, you have two choices. Choose to dwell in the poverty voluntarily, like the nuns and the monks, or choose to escape it.

I believe that all corporations are criminals. It's not hard to believe after seeing the documentary "The Corporation", taking a Sociology 101 course and hanging around liberal circles long enough. The corporate answer to escaping poverty is entrepeneurship. The Marxist option is revolution. Third, we have dwelling in poverty like the nuns and the monks. And last, to round out the dialectic, the fourth and last option is to write an analysis like this, raise as many questions as you answer, and toss it into the public realm.

I choose this one. It's making me very still.

Kire

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. You know, you are right

Nuns and monks hardly ever commit crimes. Therefore, poverty does not cause crime. Also, celebacy doesn't either.

Well, except those ...


okay, I won't go there.

[Kire]

2. Pedophiles? Key word is voluntary.

Voluntary Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia. It is the breaking of the vow that causes pedophilia.

[greekspeak]

3. The poverty of organized religion is different from secular versions

Monks and nuns live very simple lives of religious contemplation. They live in tiny cells, with no more than the basics of life. Unless fasting, they normally eat decent food. They have roofs over their heads. They have clothing to wear. They have basic health care. They have "job security" insofar as they have "jobs."

Impovershment of the type in the secular world is much different. It is a fight to KEEP a roof. To KEEP food on the table. To HAVE clothing to wear. To HAVE basic health care. To HAVE a job. It is a life of minimalist living versus a life of fighting just to have the basics of life. And who knows how many people have lost or are loosing these battles?

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

[Kire]

5. apples and apples

Like I said, the voluntary poverty I spoke about is poverty by choice. Plus, I said "like" nuns and monks. You don't have to be a monk or a nun, and be sanctioned by an organized religion, to live in voluntary poverty. It is a radical move, I admit, but nowhere did I say that the voluntary poverty advocated by sojourners was compared to lives of the victims of crime who are forced to "fight" as you say.

Apples and oranges are there, but no, I did not compare them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. I'm in a religious order

that offers none of the securities you mention. Of course, it is a lay order, and it is not Catholic. Since I became a member of my order, my income and net worth has gone way down, namely because my orientation towards life is different. So even though I have no health insurance, my house has plastic sheeting for walls, my husband lost his job over a year ago, I don't see either of us "fighting" for these things. It has to do with our attitudes.

[Kire]

24. thanks for sharing nt

[Joanne98]

47. Thankyou!

[Lancer]

4. The TYCO guys

just to name one example, certainly couldn't claim poverty for bilking millions out of thousands. Power, and the desire for more, can often drive people to commit bloodless crimes.

I think a lack of education—which does not always result in poverty—sometimes plays a part in violent crime, (which is what I think Bill Bennett was referring to in his opening play in last week's dust-up). But not always.

Murder among the wealthy is often motivated by jealous, rage or passion, or greed.

Dunno. Just musing… violent crime has many fathers, and poverty is only one of them. IMHO

[Kire]

6. I do not pretend to know what the cause of crime is.

In fact, I stipulate that the cause of crime is unknown. It is only in the darkness of the criminal's hearts where that is found. I am merely disputing that poverty is definitely known to cause it. I should add that if anybody says they can figure out "the cause of crime", they should be rewarded with the last Nobel Peace Prize, because there would be no use for any more.

[Lancer]

7. And I'm not disagreeing with you.

Just musing, as I said. You pose a good question.

[Kire]

8. I'm glad we don't disagree.

I was just musing as well.

Stimulating debate, eh?

[Alexodin]

13. The role of corrections

in causing crime should not be overlooked. The justice industry feeds on society and makes criminals out of people because it has a monetary incentive to do so. (See also: War On Drugs) Once a criminal you are trained in the prison system in the practice and when sufficiently angry released into society only to find that it is very difficult to get a job.

I'm not saying legalize crime but I am saying that our criminal justice system and legislatures make criminals out of many who would not otherwise be criminals. Our approach to corrections is antiquated and serves the interest of the corrections industry to the great detriment of criminals and the rest of society. We need to take the profit motive out of creating criminals.

I believe poverty IS a factor but certainly not the sole factor.

[Uppanotch]

33. Absolutely right on the money. Excellent analysis.

Laws should be thought of as a spyder web. There's plenty of room for some (the rich & connected) to slip thru, but the web does an excellent job of what is is DESIGNED to do: get more and more people into the criminal "justice" system.

[Geezus]

44. Your words remind me of a quote

"Laws are like cobwebs - strong enough to catch the weak, but insufficient to hold the strong." - Anacharis

[Uppanotch]

34. First things first. Do you mean anything illegal? Or acts which

cause physical injury to another sentient being and/or acts which result in the wrongful taking of another's property?

Most "crimes" shouldn't be. In that sense, it's LAWS that cause crime.

[unblock]

9. i think there are many causal factors to crime.

poverty is an imprecise causal factor.

closer to the mark would be income disparity. but in any event, other factors such as resource envy and a culture of greed and acquisition come into play as well.


as for voluntary poverty, the question arises as to whether this phrase is an oxymoron. they say that being rich is having everything you really want. in this sense, monks and nuns are presumably rich; at least, the small bank account isn't relevant to their wants.

my brother-in-law could be considered voluntarily impoverished in the sense that he maintains a very small bank balance and only works (construction) or sells his pieces (art) when he needs more money. he'd be the last person you'd figure to commit a crime of acquisition because he genuinely has no desire for much 'stuff'. of course, an autographed first edition chomsky, that he might kill for, ;)

[postulater]

10. Tell me more about the documentary "The Corporation"

I woke up thinking about corporatism this morning and the first google I did was on natural capitalism.

[Kire]

15. It's all right here:

http://www.thecorporation.com/

[rpannier]

11. I also found myself agreeing with her

Much to my dismay and horror. Poverty doesn't cause crime. If it did then the only criminals would be poor people. It doesn't explain why the rich commit crimes.
Greed and want are two underlying causes of crime. A man who steals food because he is starving is poverty causing crime. They guy who steals a car or a television set because he wants them is greed based crime. White collar crime is all greed based.
Buddha, Lao-tzu and Chuang-tze were all right...suffering comes from want and desire...this leads to much of the crime.

[Dogmudgeon]

12. The Right has been flogging that explanation for decades

"Poverty does not cause crime."

They claim that it's atheism, disobedience, lack of a Work Ethic, ad nauseam. Your own explanation is a welcome shift in blame.

No one knows what "causes" crime any more than they know what "causes" people to fall in love, although it's easy to find influences and things that help the process along.

The existence of a criminal social class making the rules is, of course, a key part of that.

--p!

[USA_1]

14. poverty doesn't cause crime ...

... you're right! The Bush crime family is far from being poor and look at their crimes: thousands dead and billions stolen.

IMPEACH BUSH!

[Kire]

16. Amen, Brother!

Amen.

[Joanne98]

48. Greed and lust for power!

[pecwae]

17. The members of my father's family

were born, lived and died in an Appalachian holler in eastern KY. This was their life until WWII when a few of the men went to war; they either died or came back knowing there was another way of life.

Some left the area, most stayed. I never heard any talk of crime from those days. I suppose one could say the crime was that they were born into that situation or that the ones who chose to stay chose voluntary poverty.

[mntleo2]

18. As Much Crime In Upper Incomes

They just are not as watched (by local police and other "officials"), blamed or imprisoned. In short, there are just as many criminals in gated communities proportionally as in poor communities, the elite are either not caught or they can afford expensive lawyers. Most low income people are scrupulously honest, and they are also much more generous with the few resources they have. Did you know the poorest state, Mississippi gives far more in donations than the richest state of New Hampshire? There are far more poor than rich, thus the greater numbers, this is why I used the word 'proportionally'.

My two cents

Cat In Seattle <---tireless activist for low income people because they have more courage in their little fingers, than most wealthy have in their entire lifetimes!

[Silverhair]

19. Crime & poverty are in a self reinforcing spiral.

Poverty has few pleasures. Drugs & booze offer a temporary false relief of the pain. Becoming a street criminal offers a short cut to getting money. But the street criminal chases away the businesses, both large and small, that hire the people in the immediate area. Businesses that stay have to take extra precautions against street criminals, and that pushes up their prices. The people with better educations, regardless of skin color, leave for safer places. That pushes down the average level of ability of the residents. New business will not locate there due to the high cost of the safeguards against crime and the fact that the labor pool is less educated. The area has less opportunity, so the methods of escape, or of even meeting basic needs, for the average resident are reduced. Hope dies and turns to further hopelessness. The cycle repeats. Go to top of paragraph, start over, except you are now on the next lower spiral. And so on, and on, and on....

The question is not who is to blame. The blame game doesn't help. The question is how to break the cycle, and that is a damn difficult question. There doesn't seem to be any one answer.

[Kire]

21. I'm glad there is not any one answer.

That means there is more than one! Hope is born!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Attitudes cause crime

Ask any con man-their attitude towards life is that it is a game, most people are stupid, and they are smart enough to "win" by various scams.

Ask a person who is bent on obtaining the maximum in material possessions. They value themselves and others not by who they are but what they have.

Ask a mystic-and I know many, both in and out of "organzied religion"-and they will say they are wealthy, even if their material possessions are few (as is the case for many). The reason for their answer is their attitude-a complete trust in a higher source to provide, and a contentment with what they have. This is a sign of true wealth.

[Kire]

23. I like your sig line.

Sam Waterston rocks!

[havocmom]

25. Great lesson there

attitudes are the essential person. Many will 'be good' because they fear reaping the harvest of being bad: hell, prision, so on.

Those who are just basically good will be good because their attitude tells them it is the right way to behave, treat themselves and treat others.

There are rich and poor with good attitude. There are rich and poor with bad attitude.

And, yes, the attitude of trust in providence is a great wealth.

I hear you!

[jody]

26. If poverty causes crime, then why are Ken Lay, Cheney, Bush criminals?

IMO, crime is caused by greed for power and material things.

Some break the law and commit crimes while others make laws to legalize their crimes.

Society wouldn't miss either group if they died immediately.

[toadaway]

41. Poverty is only ONE factor that is usually consistent with criminality.

The crimes committed by the gentlemen of Enron & the WH are the result of no conscience, greed, and an unhealthy lust for unbridled power.

[WinkyDink]

27. Clearly, being rich is no impediment to criminality!

Must we name names?!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. Poverty does cause crime

Hi Kire -

Interesting topic, and thank you for bringing it up.

I’d just like to comment on the third option for discussion of poverty: that nuns and monks live in poverty and yet they don’t commit crime.

I order a lot of products from monasteries for the holidays. Monasteries are communes, like kibbutzim, based somewhat on a communist ideology that no one owns anything, and everyone contributes to the community’s well being as best they can. These communities are generally self-sustaining, in that they have a business. Some of them take advantage of the Internet and advertise their products. It takes very little effort to sell these products, as they are usually unique, handmade, organic, and, most importantly, made by people who spend their lives in prayer and not greed, which makes their products all the more desirable. Their community becomes their products’ trademark and best selling point.

These communities do not have the latest Hummer, they don’t buy designer clothing, and they don’t eat at the Blue Fin in NYC, but their joint business venture allows everyone in the community to be provided for. They don’t lack for food, for shelter, for clothing, for healthcare, for transportation, or anything. They also have no children. As we know, children are an added expense, and they are unable to contribute financially to the household.

Whenever one or more of their community are unable to work, due to physical or emotional illness, or what have you, the rest of the community take up the slack. The person does not go without clothes, does not go without food, does not go without shelter, does not go without healthcare, does not lack for anything whatsoever. His/her standard of life remains the same: shelter, food, healthcare, clothing, all continue to be provided. Add to that the fact that people outside of the religious communities will often also contribute to the monasteries, and you’ve got a very humble, prayerful, yet very secure financial lifestyle.

I personally do not call that “poverty.” I call that self-control. Nuns and monks make a pact not to live in the “material world” as Madonna calls it. However, that’s not poverty.

Poverty in the U.S. is very different from the communes that nuns and monks live in. Poverty in the U.S. means often not knowing where one’s next meal is coming from. It means having a broken car, no money to fix it, no money to pay for gas, no money to pay for public transport, or no public transport in the town or city where you live, which means you can’t get to work. If you are able to get to work, poverty means working for wages that don’t allow anything but homelessness, so one is always one step away from living under an overpass. Poverty in the U.S. means that you don’t get routine healthcare, so you go to your minimum wage job even with a cancer, or heart disease or whatever. It means having no future to offer your children. It means having no money to pay for child care to go to work at your minimum wage job, so you make a decision between: leaving your kids alone at home, or having no money to buy them food. Poverty in America means a million things, all of them ugly, all of them leading to desperation, hopelessness, stress, hunger, disease, despair, emotional illness, mental illness and insanity.

These things lead to crime.

I found a really good definition on the Internet of what poverty is:

Poverty: the lack of some fixed level of material goods necessary for survival and minimal well-being.

When one doesn't have, or cannot obtain, or is daily struggling to obtain those things necessary for survival, crime results.

[Kire]

30. Please see post #5

[Boojatta]

36. With modern methods, is abstinence still the only reliable birth control?

They also have no children. As we know, children are an added expense, and they are unable to contribute financially to the household.

(...)

I call that self-control. Nuns and monks make a pact not to live in the “material world” as Madonna calls it.

[toadaway]

40. Excellent overview of many of the factors that drive people to do things

which, by statutory definition, are considered to be crimes. Our country is rich enough to invest in most of the resources which could be used to alleviate the most common reasons for people feeling they have no recourse but to do something that puts them at risk of being locked up. BTW - isn't it curious that more than 2,000 years after Jesus Christ was here on Earth as a man, we still imprison people like they did in biblical times.

[mopinko]

29. fetal development and crime

research into the development of fetuses of mothers under stress shows that those children grow up more disposed to both violence and risk taking. they are also more likely to have problems with attention and impulse control, which predisposes them to failure in school.
the stress can come from any number of sources, but obviously a poor mother has more sources of stress, including the stress of inadequate nutrition.
this is a complicated cycle. many wealthy moms have problems, and many poor moms are well supported by their families. but the bottom line is that a stressed out mom is more likely to produce a damaged baby, damaged in a way that is likely to lead to life on the fringes, with few legit ways to survive.
evolutionary psychology suggests that this is not an aberration, but a logical fall back position for an individual born into a society where altruism can be a risky proposition.

[Thirtieschild]

31. Poverty causes a lot of crime,

but certainly not all of it, as some of the more reasonable replies here suggest. Greed, sex and hate cause virtually all crime, and there are many levels of it. If we expand the concept of greed to include somebody who is greedy for food or a few bucks to buy his next rock, then we come down to the punk who holds up the convenience store. He is poor. For whatever reason, he chooses to mug passersby or hold up convenience stores to sustain himself.

Ergo, if he wasn't poor he wouldn't be a mugger. He might be some other kind of criminal, but I cannot remember the last time I heard of a wealthy man leaping out of his car and snatching an old lady's purse.

Mr. Disorganized

[zonmoy]

32. I don't think poverty causes crime

it simply causes the criminal to be actually caught and punished when they commit a crime.

[LeahMira]

35. Poverty causes jail time... not crime

I don't think poverty causes crime either, because the majority of poor folks do not commit crimes. At the same time, though, the majority of folks in jail for crimes are poor.

Somehow people who are wealthy manage to avoid jail sentences. Certainly it's not because they are any more moral. They do have two things going for themselves, though: they get to write the laws (or have input with those who actually write the laws) and they get excellent lawyers.

Now exactly how much input into legislation do poor folks have? Or how good are the lawyers they can afford? Hmmm....?

[LeahMira]

37. Another reversal...

Poverty doesn't cause crime, but if you look at the people in jails for committing crimes you'll find that most of them are poor.

I agree with your take on corporations, but our laws punish crimes committed by the poor more harshly than crimes committed by the wealthy even though the very wealthy are basically doing the same thing. We seem to understand direct threats to our lives and property more easily than the less direct, but more harmful threats that originate with the folks that have the money.

Also, the folks that have the money are the ones that craft our laws... to their own advantage.

[MysteryToMyself]

38. The criminal is one of life's mysteries, I suppose

My mother used to say to be careful what you say in front of your children because they will take it a step farther. Like if you are racist and hate a certain race, the next generation will hurt that race by words or act.

I think it is important what parents say and what their attitudes are. Dad was angry one time and he said, "He isn't worth the bullet it would take to kill him." That is true wisdom if you think about it. No one is worth the trouble you would be in for killing someone in a rage or whatever.

I tell my children & grandchildren that I will never murder because I want to go to heaven and I don't want to be at the mercy of people in jail.

I read an old philosophy book that said that the root of all sins and crime is wanting to have something without earning it. That is probably true for some of them.

Another thing is impulse control. My parents taught us self control at an early age. They were strict about wasting, spending and taking care of what you have. Mother would say things like "A steady drip will wear away great stones." when I felt overwhelmed with a job or debt. Meaning keep chipping away at the debt/work and you will pay it off or finish it. My daughter told me the other day that "You eat an elephant, one bite at a time." She had a million things she needed to do, so that was the way she was going to handle it. One bite at a time. Same tune different verse.

But it isn't all about wanting something without earning it, attitude or or even being taught impulse control. There are those who have been raised by decent parents, that know the right attitude, and have self control, but they do things, then feel guilty. Maybe the control inside of them isn't strong enough. There may be a criminal mind or one that acts impulsively.

There are psychopaths that don't have a conscience. They don't feel guilty about anything they do. They leave people in ruins in one way or another.

Google psychopath and sociopath, if you want some interesting reading. The descriptions fit Bush and Cheney.

[mikdalesh]

39. I definately like this thread...

I have been writing essays on this topic, and you have elucidated something that is very hard to grasp.

Emanuel Kant describes "ethical" as behavior in which one performs his duty without considering the effect it has on his happiness. This is also in the Bagavad Ghita where Krishna says to Arjuna, "perform your duty but renouce the fruits of your actions."

For common people the only real duty they have is to obey the law. But in America the consequences for crime is usually not death it is prison. So lets consider the prison for a minute.

The Prison was invented by the Quakers. They decided that when a person commits a sin they should be punished by being forced to "contemplate" their sin. The first prisons in America was a 3' by 5' steel box in which a person was locked up for a period of time in order to contemplate. That is basically the situation of the US penal system. It is a cellibate contemplative monastary. It is in a sense volountary poverty. SO! What then is duty in the sense of obeying the law. There is a lot of crime, but the majority of it is drugs. The rest of the really heinous crimes are either drug related or can be traced back to a really messed up scheme of motivation. We could talk about crime and duty for a while. You suggest that volountary poverty is the best way to fight poverty. How to make volountary poverty work?

There are obviously more prisons in America with greater prominence than the monastic orders, but why is that? We are not encouraged to choose poverty. People of high idealogy should work to promote the status quo and when they *descend* into the poor masses they become revolutionaries like Lenin or Mother Theresa. People like this are disruptive.

I'm going to stop there, but I want to get into refuting what you said about corporations. I believe that corporate law is balanced and proper. I saw The Corporation. I like Chomsky but I disagree with alot of what he thinks.
You would like the movie Iraq for sale. Go to www.Iraqforsale.org and if you buy the DVD it will blow your mind. I'm still thinking about Emmanuel Kant. I'll post again.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. I have seldom seen a more foolish claim than "all corporations are criminals".

Go away and think for a little while about what the word "criminal" actually means.

If you want to make the claim "all corporations are immoral" or "all corporations *should* be criminalised" then fair enough - I think both are clearly ludicrous claims, but one could at least theoretically make a case for them. But a criminal is someone who breaks a law, not just someone you don't like, and to claim that all corporations do that is simply untrue.

Corporations are what made the industrial revolution, and with it the attendant advances in medicine, science, agriculture etc possible. Blanket attacks on "corporations" are as clear a sign as one could wish for of someone who is completely ignorant of economics (and probably well-informed about pseudoeconomics, and unable to tell the difference).

I'm not even going to start on debunking the claim that poverty doesn't cause crime, because enough people have done it already. I'm surprised and disappointed to here a left-winger advancing it, though.

[orleans]

43. i would imagine that many of the kids growing up in the housing projects

in urban areas would, if given the option, not choose to live in poverty.

nuns taking a vow of poverty is one thing.

being born into poverty and seeing little hope of escaping it is quite another.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joanne98]

46. Monks and Nuns have a place to live.

A shelter HELPS!