Will gender be the last acceptable prejudice?

[Nikia]

People seem to defend gender roles as "natural" yet they punish people socially for not fitting these "natural" roles. This genderization seems to go on long before reproductive roles and major hormone differentation come into play, reinforced by teachers, parents, and peers. Even though we strive for equality in the workplace, women still make much less than men. Even though we strive for equality in marriages, women who work equal or greater hours than men outside of the home do much more housework on average. Psychological studies have shown that people judge men and women differently for the same behavior, which can make equality in the workplace or politically difficult.
In my opinion, group prejudice has no place in a society like the United States, which claims to support individual freedom. We claim to support the ideal of the right to be whoever we really are and want to be as opposed to some societies which focus on role obligations. By the same toke, we cannot legislate gender equality anymore than we have (or can we). It seems to me that men are most hostile to gender equality or people who step outside of their gender roles, but many women are also and seem to be jealous or resentful of women who succeed and don't want to date less gender traditional men. Will gender prejudice always exist? Is it natural? Will equality in the workplace and politically be impossible because of it? Despite the so called "naturalness " of it, some organizations and areas seem such less sexist and closer to gender equality and gender role deviant people than others. How does that happen? What can we learn from that?

[Lefty48197]

1. nah, sexual preference will be.

or discrimination against people based on their sexual preference that is.

[candy]

2. Wait until you get older----as an elderly woman -----

I find that I have become invisible to many people.

[China_cat]

7. I can top that

be an older woman in a wheel chair.

[candy]

10. Sadly,you are right. n/t

[Pithlet]

27. That's awful

The way the elderly are treated and viewed in our society is a huge shame. Aging is seen as a decline in value, and a thing to be ashamed of, and it is sad. And if you're a woman, it it is even worse.

[bobbieinok]

46. my mom visited Korea (where my bro was teaching) when she was

60+. She had a blast, because the culture reveres older people.

[miss_kitty]

3. i think 'gay' might give 'gender' a run for the money

on that score. Look at all the gay shit people say. "Gays shouldn't marry." "Gays should distance themselves from the Dem party." Substitute "People of different races" in the first example; then 'blacks' or 'women' in #2. Those sentences would not be uttered under those conditions...not now anyway. 50-100 years ago, sure it'd be ok-but then, you couldn't say 'homosexual' in public...

[Nikia]

11. I think that prejudice against gays might be gender related

Note: I strongly believe in gay and gender rights and the right for people to believe who they are. I am trying to explain the point of view that I see in people with sexuality and gender prejudice.
The natural difference between men and women are their reproductive parts and their physical roles during reproudction. Because of that, gay people could be seen as more gender deviant than heterosexual people who are employed in fields where the other gender dominates or take on other non traditional gender roles.
Boys seem to be conditioned to not want to be like girls. Think of how many comments that people have heard directed to little boys as in "you throw like a girl." Many men seem to have this deep seeded fear of men who sexually dominate other men like they do women. Men who are sexually receptive might be seen as "like a girl". As a result, some men are homophobic and encourage others to dislike homosexual men.
Lesbians are also seen as gender role deviant. Many misogynistic men seem to see all women in sexual terms. A woman married to a man is fullfilling her gender role. A woman not married to a man is suppose to be sexually available to men. A bisexual woman who chooses to be with a woman is seen as a big insult by some men.
Gay couples by definition cannot be fullfilling their proper gender roles. Not only are they not reproducing, at least one of them must be taking on a traditional male or female role, "against their nature". Many who are against gay marriage stress the difference of men and women, which they say extends beyond sex and reproduction. They also use this reasoning as to why gay couples should not adopt children or be given custody if a partner has a child from a heterosexual relationship. If one does not believe that there are big differences between men and women (at least on an individual basis as opposed to group trends and tendencies), marriage between same sexed individuals is not a big deal. If one believes that all women are supposed to be home taking care of the household and children and that all men are supposed to be the primary breadwinner and be the leader of the family, same sex marriage doesn't make sense.

[liontamer]

29. i agree n/t

[freeplessinseattle]

4. as long as there are insecure people there will be prejudice against

gender, and sexuality, and others, including overweight people, which seems to have only gotten worse (and I'm technically underweight, so feel blessed if only to avoid the unspoken jeers, but feel guilty sometimes for my lucky ticket in the genetic lottery)

[miss_kitty]

5. you know then

people assume you are anorexic. I have a terrifically slim friend and I can not believe the Bullshit strangers say to her. "I hate you because you are so skinny" I was there. I said to the moran that the weight should go back on as soon as the chemo stops. At work, a moribidly obese woman HATES her. because of her genetic make up. :eyes:

[Chovexani]

12. I get that all the time!

I am all for the size acceptance movement but sometimes I wish it applied to women of all sizes. I am naturally skinny, I was just born that way (my family's genetic makeup makes most of us look like beanpoles), and I can't tell you how many rude comments people have made to me about having eating disorders or whatnot.

I think that in the push for more respect for larger women, people sometimes go overboard and instead of uplifting women of size instead they end up trashing thin women. They don't realize that this whole "Skinny Bitches Are Evil" mentality is as hurtful and cruel as fat jokes and whatnot. And alienating people who are allies.

Sometimes women are our own worst enemy, I think. :(

[Djinn]

43. this used to be a huge pet hate with me

Until a couiple of years ago I was thin, and for a couple of years VERY thin, for reasons that were no-one's business but had nothing to do with an eating disorder.

Complete strangers (almost always women) felt it was perfectly OK to comment on my body, how much/what I ate, whether it was attractive or not. I remember once getting so pissed off at the not very subtle comments of a woman that I turned it back on her and asked her if she thought her wobbling arse and cellulite was attractive, she got MASSIVELY offended but strangely still thought there was nothing wrong going on and on about my "skin and bones" and making LOUD comments about my size to her equally rude (and equally chubby) friend.

Completely agree with SIZE acceptance, but promoting decent behaviour towards larger folk does not have to mean attacking skinny women - it's not OUR fault that you're larger.

[Pithlet]

21. Does that morbidly obese coworker of hers

really hate her because she is skinny? Did your friend tell you this, or did that obese co-worker tell you this? The reason I ask is because I think it's worth it to consider what someone who is morbidly obese experiences in life. I'm a skinny person, but I put on weight when I was pregnant. I was nowhere near obese, but I was shocked at how much differently I was treated anyway when I was no longer pregnant and just looked fat. It's highly likely that your friend's morbidly obese co-worker doesn't hate her because she is skinny, but hates herself because she is fat, and that is how you're openly made to feel about yourself when you're fat in our society.

In your post, you used "terrifically" to describe your friends weight, but "morbidly" to describe the co-worker. It's funny that you never hear "morbidly skinny". I'm sure there is such a thing, particularly with anorexics who are in danger of dying from induced starvation. But, you never hear it described that way. I know you did not intentionally mean anything by using those terms. But, people say stuff lie that a lot, and I think it's just one of those things that are so ingrained culturally that we don't even know we're doing them.

[spooky3]

30. I've been very thin, and slightly fat, and normal; I've found

that far more people offer compliments or express envy or find you attractive than say negative comments when you are very thin. If you are normal to slightly fat, as a woman, you disappear or are insulted particularly by men (particularly those who are far from physically perfect), since women still are valued primarily on their physical attributes and adherence to a thin ideal. I can't imagine how much worse it is when you are really heavy.

It's no one's business but yours.

[renaissanceguy]

56. Insecure and uninformed people

are the problem. As long as this country sees things as black and white, bigots will teach *gasp* bigotry to their children.

I agree it starts with the socialization of a child. Look at Barbie dolls. The girl dolls are made very skinny and subordinate to men. Then you have GI Joes teaching boys to be fighters and war hawks. Boys tend to dominate in youth sports, because their parents want them to be competitive and aggressive. Meanwhile, girls are expected to be disciplined in the arts.

While parents may mean well for their children, I must disagree that these black-and-white norms help our children. I notice that the most respectful, disciplined, and succressful adults were well-rounded as children.

[AndyTiedye]

6. No. The RW is Bringing Back All The Old Predjudices

race, sexual orientation, and just plain xenophobia.
They just tell everyone that God shares their bigotry.

[hlthe2b]

8. Female gender, obesity, geographic region, homosexuality.....

these appear to be the socially acceptable prejudices! AND, ON DU, given the unfortunate expropriation of Christianity by the RW (and despite their bastardization of relgion beyond anything remotely recognizeable as such), RELIGION appears to be an acceptable bastion of prejudice. And, this last observation from someone so nearly agnostic as to be unaffected by the mean-spirited comments. Nonetheless, I find it appalling that so many otherwise progressive/liberal people can scapegoat TRUE religious beliefs because of the overt hypocrisy of the RW.

[BlueHandDuo]

9. There's an interesting book...

...called "Somebodies and Nobodies: Overcoming the Abuse of Rank" by Robert W. Fuller that addresses the issue of "Rankism -- Mother of Isms."

I've only just started reading it, so I can't vouch for how well the basic idea is developed, but I like the fact that Fuller is trying to get past the "trees" of specific prejudices to let us see the "forest" of discrimination.

The author comes from a math and physics background, in case anyone finds that significant.

[Book Lover]

13. I've read it!

I got it via bookcrossing.com as a giveaway. It is written well and clearly delineates its thesis; as you say the forest for the trees.

"We don't have a name for abuse and discrimination based on rank, but we need one. When discrimination and injustice are race-based, we call it racism; when they're gender-based, we cal it sexism. By analogy, rank-based abuse and exploitation can be called "rankism." Naming rankism, putting it in the spotlight, can be half the battle."

-- p.156

[politicat]

14. Atheism will give it a run for its money...

Atheism is the only prejudice that is purely intellectual and so atheist bashing will hang around a long time. Gender prejudice is behaviorally based, as is sexual orientation. (I.e. those who hate hate for the behaviors they see.) Racism is based in some visible, obvious difference and as such is going away, slowly.

But it's easy to continue to hate atheists. It's more acceptable to be a woman and to behave outside of gender roles than it is to say that there's no god.

Pcat

[Pithlet]

19. as a woman and an atheist

I would have to say that sexism has affected me more directly. The fact that I'm an atheist isn't readily apparent unless I tell someone. It's very hard to hide the fact that I'm a woman. Not to minimize what atheists face in any way, and not that I think discrimination against atheists is less of a bad thing. The discrimination atheists face will be around for a long time

[politicat]

47. Which is why I think that atheism will be the last one overcome.

Sexism is out front. It's visible. It can be seen and measured and weighed.

Because many atheists are closeted or are not obvious about their atheism, anti-atheist prejudice will last far longer.

Pcat

I get both, too, being female and atheist. The Sexism affects me more frequently and more directly, but the atheism is more insidious.

[Pithlet]

50. I agree

It is more insidious. And four more years of Bush isn't helping matters any.

[slappypan]

15. the left doesn't seem to have much concern for gender equality lately

Start a thread on any women's issue. Within a few posts, you will have some good liberal telling you too bad, that's just the way life is, or how men have it much worse than women. As I have said previously, many on the left seem to have a view of gender politics right out of John Norman's sci fi novels. Is it any wonder the right was able to peel off enough of the women's vote this year to defeat Kerry, when the message on all fronts seems to be "shut up and fall in line"? The last year that the Democrats had a strong message for women about equal pay, dignity in the workplace, and balancing work and family life was 1992.

[lukasahero]

17. Thanks

I was even beginning to think I wasn't in the "women's issues" forum anymore... ;)

[Pithlet]

20. Or get over it. Or, stop whining.

Sometimes people who are progressive on just about every other issue react irrationally when sexism is discussed. I think that is because sexism is so prevalent and ingrained in our society that many people just don't see it, and therefor when their own views are questioned, they see it as an attack on THEM. Milder versions are "I know women who would disagree with you, and they're feminists". Which apparently should automatically make ME wrong on that given issue. My absolute worst pet peeve in this category though, is the "whiny victims" accusation. :mad:

Then there are the assholes who are so put upon because they aren't allowed to make sexist cracks without someone calling them on it.

[shaman]

23. but there's "victims" here

I see a lot of whiny victim posts here (in this section). I know that irks you immensely but that's what I'm reading here. If you want to dive deeper into this issue you're going to have to face up to the victimhood. It's being put in you face so often because it needs to be seen and acknowledged. Yeah, you see it, but you don't receive it as being something you are creating.... it's THEM out there! It's their fault I'm this way!

Let go of the victimization and you will start seeing movement on equal pay and gender prejudice issues. Keep it on the back burner and you will keep getting the comments you're getting. No movement.

Why not start a thread about gender prejudice and make a rule that no one is allowed to post anything that makes a victim of themselves or others. That would be a start... and quite possibly a very short thread.

[Pithlet]

24. That's what you're reading.

You see discussing the issues as playing the victim. That is your hangup. No one is saying that their problems are anyone else's fault. Again, your interpretation. Of course you think it needs to be seen and acknowledged by us. So, I've seen it and acknowledged it. I thank you kindly for your contribution to this forum.

[shaman]

25. since we're just discussing

Great then... So if no one is victimized (no one's problems are anyone else's fault) then you are creating the situations in which you feel a form of prejudice. Yes? Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

And, I also thank you kindly for your contribution to this forum.

[Pithlet]

26. It isn't my fault

that there are people with sexist views. It isn't my fault that there are people who think that women are only on this earth for the pleasure of men. That they are more stupid, or weaker, or are only good for procreation. That women are paid less for the same work. That there are people who want to take our reproductive freedom away. That there are people who think that women in the workforce is what is behind the decline of our society. That last little gem has been expressed seriously even here at DU! And, it isn't my fault that there are plenty of people of both sexes who think these issues no longer exist, and that there is no work left to do. And I will certainly not shut up about any of that.

I'm not playing the victim in acknowledging that those prejudices do exist. You and I aren't getting anywhere on this subject. Your insistence that these problems are all in our heads, and we're only making this shit up for something to talk about doesn't make it so.

[spooky3]

31. Social psychologists have documented the "blaming the victim" tendency

so that people don't have to deal with the uncomfortable reality that they might be at fault and/or that bad things will happen to them. As you say, but as the other poster doesn't want to accept, putting a negative label on the ones who experience discrimination and speak up about it does not make discrimination any less a reality.

I also find it an indicator of sexism when men believe that they are in a better position than women to judge whether any given incident represents sexism. If a white person asserted that a black person were wrong when he or she pointed out that an incident of bad treatment could involve or did involve racism, wouldn't we object to that? What makes white people expert on racism? If a man has not spent any time as a woman, has not studied discrimination empirically and theoretically, nor otherwise has special expertise and training on it, how arrogant and sexist he is to believe he is in a better position than a woman, who may have done all of the above, to judge. This is particularly true when a woman has experienced a pattern of incidents. Each of them may have a cause that is not sexism, but when you put the entire set together, denying the common thread is worse than ignorance. But I run into this constantly.

[shaman]

36. Another POV

To your last paragraph, I'm not insisting that these problems are in your heads, you see these problems all around you, but there is a polarity here that I'm trying to make clear. Either you create the world you live in or you're the victim of the world you live in. One has the power to choose in it, the other does not. The victim-side has no power, and no choices associated with it. "Life is as it is and I'm stuck with what I got".

Now, reading quickly through one of the posts on money, it seems that some women have made more money than men in certain lines of work. These little examples are usually shot down immediately saying it does not represent the whole or something like that. What I see being pointed out here is *yes!* some women DO create a lot of money for themselves. But it is all but ignored and then everyone lapses back into their victimization and brings forth lots of data to backup, yes, they truly are victimized.

My point here, and i have no proof other than my own life experience, is that I bet these women (and men) who make the big bucks, don't run a story of victimization in their heads. They are taking the other side of the polarity and asserting their choice, their volition, instead of choosing to feel victimized around money.

Without a doubt we all play with the victim role in life -- might not be with sexism or equal pay, but we all play the game. Step #1 would be to see when we're playing the game. When you read one of those posters who bring up examples that don't fit the status quo or who call others "whiny victims", maybe it's time to take a breath, feel that anger moving toward your fingertips, and STOP. Don't go into that reaction that justifies the victimization. Just say to yourself (or type it, what the hey) "maybe I'm forgetting I'm not in my power right now and I really feel like lashing out at this person for putting it in my face." I think if anyone (male/female)on this board practices disconnecting from their victimization, there will be noticeable changes in their lives.

So, Pithlet, this is all from my POV, you can agree or disagree with me. This post was written more to the general reader, so I'm not saying the above mirrors you to any great extent. It is what I noticed reading through this post and others.

[Pithlet]

37. No one chooses to be victimized.

That is something your argument ignores entirely. Another flaw in your argument is assuming that people who make a lot of money are in general less possessive of certain human traits and flaws. It's incredibly naive and sounds a lot like those of conservatives who demonize the poor.

I'm sorry. But, I honestly don't think my life, or anyone else's, is going to become magically glorious just because I decide to agree with you. And, disagreeing with you and people with your viewpoint isn't indicative of some harmful inward anger. In fact, that suggestion comes off as rather patronizing. Better not to work ourselves up into a tizzy, huh? That never got us anywhere, except, oh, maybe the right to vote? Reproductive freedom?

I sure am glad that suffragists didn't roll over and decide they weren't going to "play the victim". Or those who fought for reproductive rights. I'm certainly not going to take your advice if/when a pharmacist won't fill my birth control prescription. But, thanks.

[shaman]

38. The choice is unconscious.

It is horrifying.

Will people's lives become "magically glorious" if they actually take my advice to heart? If they take pause for just a moment, possibly. Tell me, if there are no new ideas presented to them and they continue doing what they're doing DO YOU THINK ANYTHING WILL CHANGE????? Fat chance.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Such is the case for humanity.

Good luck ladies,
-S

[spooky3]

40. Denying the true cause of the problem is the best way to perpetuate it.

The first step in solving any problem is understanding what is causing it. If you misplace responsibility or misattribute its causes, then you avoid attacking the real problem.

I don't see anyone arguing here that women AND MEN should not fight back when discrimination occurs. Better instead that all of society's residents face up to the probability of discrimination's occurrence *in advance* and take steps to prevent it.

Blaming the victim or making the victimization worse by acting as if she or he has created the problem and has no right to feel bad about it is not solving the problem. As another poster said, your posts rely a lot on faulty reasoning that is highly reminiscent of that of rightwingers who do not want to accept that their own behavior is what is most in need of change.

[shaman]

44. There is denial of denial...

spooky, I was not going to reply at all, but I will for some closure. I believe victimization has been "institutionalized" so deeply and for so long that no one can see it or their part in it. This I have no *proof* for, except my own life experience, but it seems everyone wants proof before they'll consider something different from their own understanding of the world's workings. So, I can see why you mention "faulty reasoning" as it is a hard jump to make.

I don't know much about rightwingers or conservatives, but I bet their behavior is in its own form of denial. I am not a "rightwinger" if you were asking.

Well, I'm gonna stop typing, since I've been getting resistance the whole way here. Thanks for your comments.

[Kipepeo]

60. I am so sick of people

telling those who speak out against inequality or injustice or sexism or racism or homophobia or a corrupt political system or a stolen election to just "get over it" and "stop playing the victim."

If you don't want change, fine. But excuse me while I step over you and your lazy justification for maintaining the status quo.


"Shove it." -THK

[shaman]

61. did you understand what I was saying?

I don't know if you're responding to me or just to the topic in general.

I'm not in the 'get over it' crowd. I will say stop playing the victim though... because that is status quo. And, to me, things take a very long time to change when I stay in a state of victimization.

I am sharing a POV from my life where if I empower myself, I am more able to make change in my life -- quickly. Yes, feeling victimized about your life will work to create change, all be it, VERY SLOWLY and more painful along the way.

You cannot change the world until you change yourself first. Change can come slowly or quickly. It is a choice.

[Kipepeo]

62. Well, You seem to be

advocating fighting institutionalized sexism with a little pop-psychology personal makeover.

I have nothing against feel-good "visualize world peace" personal emotional makeovers, but they'll not solve the problem of institutionalized sexism, alone.

No one is arguing with you that emotional health is important, but there is a difference between emotional health and flat out denial. It seems to me that you are arguing for personal denial as a solution to society's ills. Something along the lines of, 'If I don't see it, it doesn't exist.'

Finally, you may not be in the "get over it" crowd, but you're accusing others of "playing the victim" which makes me want to retch, seeing as how it's straight from the mouth of Limbaugh in his "feminazi" screeds. You surely know how often right wing men accuse feminist activists of "playing the victim" as a means of dismissing them?? It's become somewhat of a loaded phrase.
:shrug:

[Nikia]

39. But we'll continue to watch our sisters being victimized

I have been in few situations where I have seemed to been exempt from gender discrimination, like I had been given temporary male status or something. For example, there were 30 students in my high school chemistry class, half male and half female. The male teacher was rather misogynistic. For the first week or so of class, he only called on male students. After the first test, he called on myself and another girl besides all the boys because evidently we did well enough to get that honor. The situation was obvious and ridiculous. He's ask a question, a few boys or myself and the other privleged girl would answer wrong. Half the girls would have their hands up and he would say "Won't anyone else try to answer this question?" This happens in work and social situations too. Some women do somehow earn enough respect to be considered honorary men, but it doesn't really make us feel much better to hear "Oh I know that you aren't like that (a prostitute, bad at math, irrational and overly emotional, or whatever else), but most women are."
Do you think that it makes a black doctor in a predominately white community to hear negative comments about blacks with the preface "We know that you aren't like most blacks who..."? Do you think that he feels better that he was asked to join the local country club when other blacks are denied that? Do you think that he feels better when the local manager of a store comes to his rescue after a clerk is folowing him around and says "Sorry about that Dr. my clerk didn't recognize you." Unfortunately, this doctor isn't hypothetical. Neither are women who are treated as honorary men.
I do think that we women should do more to help each other. Those who have become successful or honorary men should not forget their sisters. There are things that we can do on an individual basis but I don't think that we can deny that society is how it is or that there are many misogynists.

[spooky3]

41. I wonder why shaman has not entered the Race forum to make the same

arguments s/he has proposed here?

[shaman]

45. See my reply #44. n/t

[Pithlet]

51. Post 44 doesn't answer her question n/t

[kalibex]

32. Very Droll.

"Great then... So if no one is victimized (no one's problems are anyone else's fault) then you are creating the situations in which you feel a form of prejudice. Yes? Good. Now we're getting somewhere.


*claps, slowly and deliberately*

Yet, even when you're paranoid...sometimes they are still 'out to get you.'

Imagine that.

Just because a way of behaving in this culture is still so deeply ingrained that few may be capable of 'seeing' or admitting it...doesn't mean that those doing it don't deserve to be called on it.

-B

[LisaLynne]

16. I'd like to reply to about 7 of these posts ...

so I'll just put this at the bottom of the thread. :)

The idea of "Rankism" is very interesting. I do think at the base of it all, there is something like that going on. I think we do need to look at all forms of prejudice coming from the same place. It's almost like there is an ideal of what we're all supposed to be (white, male, straight, rich, Christian, American, etc) and if we're not, then we're fair game at least in the area of our "deviance". Does it come down to a sort of xenophobia at the personal level? Maybe. I don't know.

HOWEVER, I do think that it is FAR more socially acceptable to be sexist in our current society than just about anything else. People can make any sort of joke about women that they want, it seems, even if in the same crowd a racially based or sexual orientation joke would be met with grim silence. My boss can tell me to my face that he hates women now that he's going through a divorce and that women are like children, but I can't see him getting away with similar comments if they are racially based.

Now, with all that being said, I don't mean to diminish what GLBTs or African Americans or anyone else faces. It's all bad. It's all wrong. And we shouldn't be putting up with any of it. It just seems, as someone noted, that there is a tendency even among "liberals" to ignore gender issues right now.

[Chovexani]

28. Ignorance born of privilege hurts us all

And it doesn't matter how "liberal" someone thinks they are, ignorance is ignorance. Shit, you just need to look around this board to see how people who are supposed to know better still don't "get it". At least with freepers you know up front what you're getting.

Unfortunately for those of us in multiple "other" boxes, things are getting even worse. This latest election theft has emboldened those in power...the knuckledraggers are crawling out of the woodwork, out from crevices you never expected to find them in.

All us "others" need to stop playing into the divide and conquer strategies of those in power and come together to fight all these isms as one. If we don't hang together we will surely hang separately.

[atommom]

18. Very interesting thread. I think that sexism has gotten more blatant

lately. It's as if most people don't consider it an issue anymore.

For example, I cursed my TV through many of this season's episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher. In his effort to point out that Democrats need to be more aggressive, he kept making "jokes" that compared Dems to women or girls. Kerry was "wearing panties" ... the guys who unfortunately missed Ann Coulter with a cream pie were "throwing like girls" ... even Cheney was acting like "a little girl." For crying out loud, guys, the world does not revolve around your little wee-wees. :eyes:

OK, so I just made a sexist joke too. I kid the guys! They know that...

[Saffy]

42. Yep. It's as if the battle was won, so no one cares about the WAR.

I blame it on the low thresh-hold most Americans have for remaining interested or amused or angered or whatever...chronic attention deficit disorder on a mass scale.

As if, simply because the battle for women's rights has been in existance longer than:
a 13 episode sit-com season, or the average heyday of any given celebrity or the life span of a sensationalized "news" story or even a presidential term (or two), it's somehow lost its ability to be of interest to the majority.

Sad. Sick. Scary.

[Scout]

22. body size and gender....

fat women, beware!

[u4ic]

33. DISABLED fat women beware...

[really annoyed]

49. I Wouldn't Expect You To Understand

Get a clue and educate yourself.

I work in the medical profession - you have NO CLUE what disabled people have to go through. And being overweight on top of it makes it even harder.

Continue being an insensitive b*stard if that gives you satisfaction.
I prefer when people make their ignorance known.

[really annoyed]

48. You Don't Have To Tell Me

I'm living it.

But who gives a crap, eh? Fat women deserved to get picked on.

Thank you for proving my point. Thank you for contributing to the problem and cloaking yourself as a "liberal."

I just find it ASTOUNDING that you can get away with picking on overweight women and calling yourself a liberal.

Gee, how "tolerant" of you!

I've noticed any thread on overweight women gets some of the males all up in a huff here because you are OFFENDED by looking at a fat person - oh no wait, a fat WOMAN. It's OK if men are overweight.

You have NO CLUE what overweight people go through in society. I've been pushed into walls and spit upon because of my weight. I STILL have to deal with stupid teenage boys who like to make farting noises when I walk by. The only satisfaction I get is when their girlfriends roll their eyes at them or tell them to shut up.

All you can do is come up with some lame response about how it's my fault I'm fat and that I deserve to get made fun of because of it.

But HELL.... I'm NOT going to lose weight so men don't get offended when they look at me.

The funny thing? I've never had this problem with females. It's ALWAYS been men who have picked on me.

So PLEASE DO explain yourselves...

Just proves that we have a LONG way to go...

[Scout]

52. what the hell are you talking about?

I'm a fat woman and a liberal ... WTF?

[lukasahero]

53. I think "really annoyed" misunderstood

the sarcasm of the posts about size and gender. I think you are both (we are all) on the same side on this issue.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. Several years ago, a columnist in Portland pointed out the difference

between the world's attitude toward South Africa, which at that time had a whole social system overtly based on discrimination against dark-skinned people (Africans, East Indians, and mixed-race people), and Saudi Arabia, which had, and still does have, a social system based on discrimination against women.

She listed all the indignities that women in Saudi Arabia suffer and asked (I'm paraphrasing), "What would the world say about a country that treated black people that way, requiring them to wear shapeless robes and cover their faces in public, not letting them work at certain occupations, not letting them drive, applying a separate set of laws to them, not letting them out of the house without permission, etc.? Such a country would be boycotted and condemned as South Africa is...But when women are treated like that, it's 'just culture.' The problem is that both South Africa and the American South speak of racism as 'defending our culture.'"

This disregard for women's rights can be seen with the world's reaction to the Taliban. Sure, there were articles tut-tutting about the Taliban's restrictions on women, but there was no international outcry until the Taliban blew up some Buddhist sculptures.

Even earlier, the U.S. had no trouble supporting the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan, out of which the Taliban grew, even though a great deal of their motivation for fighting the Soviets was their anger at the Communist government's attempts to institute compulsory education for girls.

The current issue of the New Yorker has an article about the headscarf controversy in France. It seems that ten years ago, very few French Muslim women wore scarves, but the militants have been recruiting among the unemployed and undereducated Arab youths and men in France, and among that group, one of the signs of being "a true Muslim" is forcing the women and girls in one's family to wear headscarves and long dresses, even if their particular ethnic group has no such tradition. Meanwhile, the men continue to wear Western clothing.

My previous attitude about this controversy was to live and let live so that the furor would die down by itself, but if this headscarf business is being imposed women and girls who formerly wore Western dress, that's a different story.

But why worry?--it's all "just culture." :grr:

[Maat]

55. I so agree with you.

When this 46-year-old mom took community property in law school - I was profoundly shocked to discover that husbands managed 'community property' in California until 1975. No wonder my grandmother kept her property in her name. That way she made the decisions with respect to what she had paid for.

I remember vividly being referred to as 'Honey' when working as an accountant in the early 80's.

I remember fighting with my mother about whether or not it was 'a man's world' in the late 70's. And I remember women dying as a result of back alley abortions until Roe took effect.

Young women today have no idea what they could return to, and it is just around the corner with the Religious Right Extremists calling the shots in so many places.

[Scout]

35. not sure if she is the originator of this quote

but Yoko Ono (supposedly) said that

"woman is the nigger of the world"


that pretty well sums it up if you ask me.

[TaleWgnDg]

54. Gender discrimination will always be at issue . . .

until and unless the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) is made a part of our federal constitution. PERIOD!

Woman do not enjoy an equal status in law in America, despite what you believe. Equality for woman should be cemented into the constitution in express words:

"Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex." -- proposed wording of the 28th Amendment.

http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/era.htm
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/supportorgs.htm




.

[RazzleCat]

57. Sexism exists, but we pretend we fixed it

I think that the left ignores sexism. Mostly because their is a belief that a woman can always "marry" or partner up with someone to better her positron. Or possibly the discrimination is less visible, it's easy to see no people of color at a work site, harder to see that women are earning less, or getting fewer opportunities to rise with in a company. The second reason it is ignored is that society has accepted that women want to earn less, and or join the "mommy track". I also hear all the time about how their are laws to avoid women being paid less, and or how we get ahead due to special grants given to business for hiring women.

[Kipepeo]

58. I agree with this

We definitely pretend we fixed it. I also think sexism is harder to define in some ways than racism is because of heterosexuality. You have sex and all the issues that come out of it (marriage, prostitution, porn, housework, etc) existing routinely between the "majority" group and "minority" group.

I think that's why it's hard, even at DU, to discuss things like lookism or objectification and figure out how to define them and where the line is, etc. because some straight liberal men find such discussion (resulting from a woman saying she's offended, for example) as a prudish attack on their sex drive. It's tricky to discuss those things without people getting pissed on all sides, that's for sure.

[Samurai_Writer]

59. No, discriminating fat people will be...

gender will run a close third, after sexual orientation.