Maybe now the gay/lesbian marriage advocates will include women's rights in their efforts

[omega minimo]

and we can have an honest discussion of the challenge that blurring traditional gender roles presents to male authoritarian society.

:hi:

[midnight]

1. This is getting into an area I would love to hear more about.

[TomInTib]

2. Good point, but don't hold your breath.

The GLBT crowd cares mainly about GLBT issues.

If they could bring themselves to link with Women's Rights, they would be a steamroller.

[omega minimo]

5. I was open to their "steamroller" approach working without including women's rights

but it didn't. I wonder if there will be more discussion of how gay marriage DOES change society.

[femrap]

12. We were a unified front back in the late '70's and early '80's. The

enemy was the rich white male. Then AIDS and an entire generation of gay men died. It was heartbreaking..I don't know if I will ever get over the fact that I lost so many wonderful cool friends.

I miss them....and what makes it worse is that today's gay are so selfish in that all they want is to get married....an institution that isn't all that great. But we all have to learn.

I miss my dear friends.

[One_Life_To_Give]

14. Think Marriage is Symbolic

I don't think it is mearly "Marriage" to the GLBTQ community. It's the straw that broke the camels back.

What I read over on the GLBT board has alot more concerns than just marriage and the 1500 rights that entails.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

44. That's very easy to say...

when you are not of a group that is being denied a right.

[defendandprotect]

3. Where's the Dem platform on ERA now?......

Obama was basically agasinst gay marriage and gave no help--!!!

[mzteris]

4. as long as there is discrimination

against ANY group, there will be discrimination against all groups by some one.

You can't pick and choose who you want to be "equal". We must support each other's efforts to be recognized as equals because if we can't even accept EACH OTHER as equal, how the hell do we expect those who think they're "better" to accept any of us as their equal?

[omega minimo]

6. We're in agreement, although I'm not sure that's what you meant...

i'm not interested in competition but honest recognition by gay rights advocates of what they are up against and that is/ougttabe inclusive of women's rights and what they are up against.

[mzteris]

7. we are in agreement -

people cannot selectively choose "which group" gets to be equal. We must ALL be equal. Period.

[TellTheTruth82]

18. need to be careful here....

The US Goverments, state and local governments, and most businesses discriminate on a 24 hour a day basis. I'm not talking about affirmative action either. I'm talking about something as simple as restrooms. Separate restrooms for men and women is a legal form of discrimination. I would postulate that not many people would prefer to get rid of this form of discrimination, but that creates a slippery slope....

[iverglas]

19. good lord

[TellTheTruth82]

21. This is a serious issue

Restrooms in California are becoming a hot topic for transgenders. Some are calling for separate transgender restrooms, some are calling for using whichever one you feel like, and so on. So, are we separate, but equal?

[omega minimo]

29. I want restrooms for people whose favorite color is green

:bounce:

[One_Life_To_Give]

31. Not exactly

I havn't heard any of my sisters call for gender neutral bathrooms other than the Family restroom. The restrooms of Ally McBeil and Starship Troopers aren't likely for mass use anytime soon.

The core issue is that Trans people, both FtM and MtF, do not feel safe in the Mens Room. Seperate/Family style Restrooms avoids the problems that can arrise with using the Ladies Room. Especially if one's legal ID indicates other than Female, in which case you can be arrested.

I can't picture either Women or Trans people advocating a public facility where both men and women would be in such close proximity. It would be too threatening I think for both, to have the potential for encounters with men in such a location.

[TellTheTruth82]

32. Actually

One of the changes being proposed is labeling restrooms
Toilets with urinals
Toilets without urinals

I'm not sure about any requirements about who gets to use what, or whether it is entirely up to the person or what. But we go astray from the point of the slippery slope (and of course the combination of womens' rights with GLBT).

[omega minimo]

28. yeah right

:tombstone:

[One_Life_To_Give]

8. I suggest Gendervision

Hosted by Women's Studies Professor Gordene MacKenzie (Merrimack College) and her partner and Trans Activist Nancy Nangeroni. For discussion about blurring gender roles.
gendervision.org

The merging of GLBT and Womens rights is an interesting concept. My gut tells me that GLBT would be more likley than average to support womens rights. But then again I might of said the same thing about women and GLBT rights. The exit polls on Prop H8 don't show a gender difference though.

[omega minimo]

9. Wonder how accurate the polls were in blaming brown people for Prop 8

:thumbsdown:

thanks for the reference

[omega minimo]

10. GD post on the concept

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4522316&mesg_id=4522316

[iverglas]

11. I added to that thread

a little late, but I find it interesting.

[omega minimo]

16. thanks very much iverglas

yer right, the response was underwhelming. it's amazing how misinterpreted, how invisible the concept is...

I will read your thoughtful post more thoroughly later. thread is "archived"

:hug:

[One_Life_To_Give]

13. Not a really convincing argument

While this may be perfectly clear to some in the Womens Rights movement. I don't think there is anything there to convince activists within the GLBTQ community that they should do some things different. And I am not really sure exactly what action the article was supposedly advocating.

But the phrase

That is why it will be worth incorporating womens rights into the discussion and strategy of successful, long term gender rights efforts.

Shouldn't that be GLBTQ Rights?

[omega minimo]

15. can't please anybody

"Shouldn't that be GLBTQ Rights?"

don't get the concept and then doing a politically correct litmus test?

:banghead: :eyes:

[One_Life_To_Give]

17. Who is the target audience?

Just trying to offer some constructive critisism.

Gender Rights? Isn't that just another way of saying Womens Rights?
So it reads adding womens rights to GLBTs womens rights fight. Which isn't the reason everyone is out marching in the streets.

1)Who is the Target Audience?

2)What action does the author want them to take?

3)What do they know?

4)What don't they know?

5)What are the audiences goals?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

20. GLBT will never be equal until women are.

That should answer all your questions.

[One_Life_To_Give]

22. That really encourages Partnership.

That really encourages Partnership.:eyes:

Sure to make all the Prop 8 protesters just run out and pick up Womens Rights issues. :sarcasm:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. Thank you for demonstrating your dismissive view of women's rights

I read you loud and clear.

[One_Life_To_Give]

24. I dismiss that Pay Equality

takes precedence over obtaining a Trans-Inclusive ENDA. Or the rights of my Sisters to not be brutally murdered for being who they are and not what some piece of paper says.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. Your sisters are brutally murdered just for being women too.

All over the world. Have you ever met a violent homophobic bigot who didn't also violently hate women? I know I haven't. Homophobia and misogyny go hand in hand, my friend. Hand in hand.

Neither ENDA nor the ERA needs to take precedence over the other. What a false dichotomy.

[One_Life_To_Give]

26. Try to avoid Violent Homophobic Bigots

So I have no idea if they beat their wives or not. Nationally I see that 1.57 /100,000 women are murdered annually by men in the US. My sisters are at 26-90/100,000 murdered annually.

At any rate we will have to agree to dis-agree over what the priorities should be. Both Feminists and GLBT's will each set their own priorities and pursue those goals. Hopefully we all emerge safe and sound on the other side.

Peace

[omega minimo]

27. the greatest hazard of online "discussions"

repeatedly is the tendency for "either/or."

Since my OP was so widely misinterpreted or misunderstood, I reread it.

I was either accused of "either/or" or subjected to that attitude in replies.

Yet nothing in the OP suggests "either/or" and in fact, it attempts to DO THE OPPOSITE.

Please read Iverglas's excellent reply in that thread. Iverglas has a clue and also has the background perspective that is missing from a lot of the "discussion" and the activism. That lack is what causes some of these unnecessary schisms and projected attitudes of "if you're not on my bandwagon you're AGAINST US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

The OP is a throwback to when ALL our rights were interconnected and a suggestion that time may relevant to now.

The OP could not be clearer about what it is suggesting. I'm not gonna quote it for you. I've already clarified and pulled quotes in the thread. If you're interested you can read it for yourself.

[One_Life_To_Give]

30. True Enough

The article raises good points. Although I think it's clarity depends upon ones background. Terms such as "Male Authoritarian Power Structure" are perhaps a bit difficult to present to current Gay/Bi male activists, without adding some context or explanation.

If the intent of the article is that;
The common foe of Women's and GLBT Rights is the Male Authoritarian Power Structure.
(Which I think is the case?)

Then I think it needs to better define what is the Male Authoritarian Power Structure. And to describe just how this entity is blocking equality, etc. Perhaps this could be done by showing in the definition how the groups who bankrolled Prop 8 are all integrally involved in the Power Structure. Could be contrasted to Liberal Churches (UCC), which I am guesssing are not part of the Male Authoritarian Power Structure?

Alternatively Gender Roles was mentioned. And I think we could have long discussions about how Rigid Gender Roles have negative effects on equality.

[omega minimo]

42. Here's the problem!!

"Terms such as "Male Authoritarian Power Structure" are perhaps a bit difficult to present to current Gay/Bi male activists, without adding some context or explanation."

Again I hope you read Iverglas comments and picked up on the presence of context, history, etc. concepts the lack of which produces zackly what you described which seems either

:cry: or :rofl:

[iverglas]

36. er, what?

My sisters are at 26-90/100,000 murdered annually.

Can you give us a raw number for these homicides, and thus an idea of the population size you are talking about, or vice versa, or something?

That's a pretty broad range too, obviously: 26 to 90.

If you're talking about a population of a million (to pull a number out of a hat), the upper figure translates into 900 murders p.a.

There are about 15,000 homicides a year in the US.

Perhaps you would clarify.

[One_Life_To_Give]

37. Lets see

The real problem is no one really knows what the prevalence of transgenderism is.
Prof. Lynn Conway estimates prevalence of MtF Transexuals at 1 in 500 to 1 in 2500. For a US total of between 300 thousand and 60 thousand. Walinder estimated prevalence at 1 in 37,000 for a net 4,054
Transgenderdor.org is showing around 12-14 average murders per year.
13/300,000 or 4.33 per 100,000
13/60,000 or 21.67 per 100,000
13/4,054 or 320.6 per 100,000
For reference FBI reports a national rate for all persons of 5.9 per 100,000
21.4% of Murder Victims are Female for about 1.5 per 100,000
And for males about 9 per 100,000

[iverglas]

38. sorry

I find it all quite ludicrous.

I suspect that the population, i.e. the population of transgendered individuals who are murdered, is being overcounted in the case of the homicides as compared to the counting of the total population, regardless of the size of the total population of transgendered individuals. That is -- how many of the homicide victims in question would have been included in the estimates of total population of transgendered individuals? Easy to identify members of that population once they are dead, I suppose, but without an accurate count of the total population in question any attempts to produce rates are simply meaningless at best and misleading at worst.

If the total population estimate of 300,000 is the most accurate, the homicide rate for the group would be about 4.3/100,000, well below the US total rate.

Your original claim was:

My sisters are at 26-90/100,000 murdered annually.

Still don't know what that is based on.

A homicide rate of 90/100,000, added to deaths from other causes, would certainly call for a high replacement rate in order for the population to remain stable. Any population with a death rate like that is not going to last long otherwise. That would be equivalent to 270,000 homicides a year (rather than 15,000) in the US as a whole; you'd lose a million people every four years to homicide.

How do you account for this allegedly high murder rate, btw? What are the circumstances in which the murders occur?

Homicide rates are high for various groups. Prostitutes are one. One might ask whether it is their status that is the causal factor in the high homicide rate, or their activities.

[One_Life_To_Give]

39. Death Rate all causes 820/100,000

An increase in the death rate of 10% would not cause the population to die out. We have several countries around the world that loose over 2% of their population annually.

The publicisized cases are variants of thr "Gay Panic Defence". Where some guy finds himself attracted to her until he finds out she wasn't classed female at birth and therefor must kill her.

Since transphobia means a number of them can only put food in their mouths by working the streets. It certainly doesn't help matters but that sounds like blaming the victim. Short step from trying to eat to walking down the street while female.

On edit
Getting back to the original question.
Should the GLBTQ community add womens rights to it's priorities?

My #1 priority in this area is a Trans-Inclusive ENDA. Seems simple to me that giving people an option other than working the streets is a basic first step. Comes only after stopping people from killing you for daring to exist. Which is thankfully illegal in this country.

I have not seen any evidence or reasons given here as to why I or anyone else should alter the priorities of activists within the GLBTQ community to add issues specific to womens rights. We may all support women's rights because it is the right thing to do. But I don't see any signs of a historic alliance nor the mutual resepct necessary to forge one going forward. IMHO

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. I think opposition to the two is sufficiently different that they're fairly different issues.

While the reasons for supporting them are the same underlying principles, in terms of both the forms of opposition to them and the issues that are controversial, womens rights and gay rights are rather different.


Opponents of women's rights tend to believe that women are inferior. There is almost no-one who claims that being a woman is immoral; most chauvinists are actively heterosexual; many are happily married.

Opponents of gay rights tend to believe that homosexuals are immoral. Some of them also believe that homosexuals are inferior in their abilities, but I suspect most don't.


The most important/controversial women's rights issues currently involve advancing legislation to prevent individuals discriminating against women; the state has already almost entirely accepted it should not discriminate on grounds of gender.

The most important/controversial gay rights issues currently involve persuading the state to stop discriminating against homosexuals, although all the problems with individuals discriminating against them also apply here too, on top of that.


So I think there's some overlap in terms of things like hate crimes legislation, but most of the main battles of the gay rights movement are things which don't apply to women's rights. Gay rights have a lot further to go.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

34. "There is almost no-one who claims that being a woman is immoral"

I dunno about that. Ever hear of that Eve gal back in the Garden? The notion that women are immoral, or at least as regards our sexuality, seems to be the basis of much religious doctrine and restrictions on us.

[bliss_eternal]

35. During religious studies...

...I learned that many of the middle eastern religions won't allow women to worship in the same room with men, while menstruating ('cause they are considered 'impure' during that period of time).

Can't have women gettin' the men folk all dirty, just by being in the same room with them.

:eyes:

[omega minimo]

43. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people

[whathehell]

40. Thank you. I've been waiting to hear something like that.

[Carter2]

41. That is an excellent point

[plantwomyn]

45. I've been doing just that for 45 years.

I've marched and fought for a woman's right to choose before Row v. Wade even though I have been an OUT lesbian since 1972. I've been "blurring traditional gender roles" since the day I could buy my own clothes. Was it a challenge? Hell ya. What has always blown me a way are those that will say " But your pretty why would you..." " You could have any man you want, why..." "Why did you shave off all your beautiful hair?" "Why don't you shave your legs, ich" "Why can't you just dress up for family occasions"? .
It's been years now that my family has had any of those expectations from me. They accept me and love me as I am. It has been years since I gave a shit about anyones opinion about how I dress or how long my hair is. They used to scream "Lesbo" and worse at me when I walked down the street. Now most woman wear what I wear. It doesn't hurt that I'm an old grey haired woman now and slowly becoming invisible as a sexual object "to male authoritarian society".