The "Feminization" of Males.

[Ripley]

There is an LBN thread about the Promise Keepers using this terminology. I guess Rush, Maher (and other "modern day liberal men") have more company in this new version of a Backlash against women.

While I admit I am not up-to-date on my social science reading, this so-called phenomenon is not new. I recall during the 1980's having discussions with male co-workers (who were completely opposed to the ERA) where they used that language. They would accuse feminists of denying the biological differences between the sexes and that it would be a boring and horrible world if we were all androdgynous. In fact, one guy (who now works for The Rand Corporation) liked to blame it all on one of my favorite singers, Annie Lennox. :D

I find this characterization of a changing culture to be both anti-female and homophobic. There seems to be a fear that if boys and men behave in certain ways they would be perceived as Gay. Likewise, I remember how over the years girls and women in professional sports, politics, science and other male-dominated careers were (are?) automatically considered to be lesbians by these same people.

Okay, I'm not a trekkie/trekker, but I like to use this popular cultural reference for a rebuttal to this "Feminization of Males" nonsense. Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Would anyone consider Capt. Jean-luc Picard a "feminized man?" Afterall he is always the diplomat first. He appreciates the arts and in fact plays musical instruments. He is unmarried and has a woman advisor he relies on intensely in times of danger and even war.

I apologize for this reference to those who never watched the show, but I seriously believe the series was ground-breaking and evolving in regards to our Real American culture regarding gender stereotyping in much the same way the original Star Trek (very sexist) was ground-breaking regarding racial stereotyping and discrimination that was going on in the 1960's.

Back to the thread title. The reason I will continue to use the term some men don't like (backlash) is that every time there is a renewed push of some kind for women to break ground, there is a counter-movement by men. Apparently today the coalition is vast.

While it is not spoken, the people who claim boys and men are being turned away from their God-given inherent rights to simply be, well...boys (I'm still not sure of the list of those attributes, but let me guess...control over their girlfriend/wife, physical aggression, inappropriate behavior towards women, sex-on-demand for starters)...are implying that girls and women are also being turned away from their God-given inherent rights to simply be girls (let me guess again...to alter their physical body to be more "sexy", to obey their men's wishes, to be meek and not speak out, especially not loudly).

The evolving culture on this planet (not just the USA) is in response to some horrible practices that have occurred since humans created societies. It is absurd to call these historical injustices "human" when the people perpetrating them were 99% "male."

I love the NFL. I live with a man. I don't want men to take up knitting (unless they want to).

But I'm tired of their lame-ass paranoia.

[iamjoy]

1. Star Trek TOS Was Not Sexist

At least, not for the time.
Originally, Majel Barett was supposed to be the First Officer, but the network didn't like the idea (so that aspect was a little sexist).

If you have ever listened to Nichelle Nichols talk about her time on the Enterprise, it is all a matter of perspective. Now we look and go "look how they made women wear those short skirts, showing off their legs like that's all that matters." But women back then thought the mini skirt was a sign of liberation from the longer skirts that were considered appropriate. It was also considered progressive to have a woman as an officer on the bridge.

So, consider TOS in the context of the 1960s.

[Ripley]

4. Okay, I'll give you that.

Women were "liberated" to dress in that attire. But I was referring more to the actual roles they played. They were usually little more than sexual conquests for Kirk.

Hey, I'm no ST historian, but I remember hating it as a little girl because I felt like girls were belittled even then! Yet, I was an avid scifi reader.

Point taken tho.

[elehhhhna]

7. All the alien women had big boobs. Coincidence?

[liontamer]

51. not the super anorexic one that went after spock n/t

[Shoeempress]

2. I agree, it seems that if a man is civilized, (i.e. treats others with

respect regardless of who they are or what they believe, avoids violence as the last bastion of the ignorant, etc.) that this is the feminzation of men. I was raised to think that was the goal, to live in a civilized society. guess I'm hopelessly out of step with the present culture, and thank goodness my husband is too.

[realisticphish]

3. Here's how I see it

if you look through history, men in general have consistantly persued "feminine" pasttimes, as well as "masculine" ones. That ended, however, as women started to push for equality, and won.

So, there was a sort of backlash. Some men felt threatened, and so created a sort of hyper-masculinity (Guns, beer, and boobs being the only acceptable topics of thought). That idea has continued for decades, but I believe that things are, on many levels, equalizing. The "feminization" is just men returning to how they're supposed to be, and those who are still terrified of gender equality are fighting tooth and nail against it

[oneold1-4u]

5. One difference

The female does have the "one right" of perpetuating their own! Someday this realization, will bring about the changing of a million issues about gender. It is only the female who gives the male any powers to be an egotistical ass and think that he knows how to rule anyone!

[Eloriel]

27. That's a bullshit argument I absolutely despise

It (once again) puts ALL the responsibility for the good and appropriate and civil behavior of BOTH sexes on -- ta da! the woman.

I think women have had ENOUGH of carrying the responsibilities of everyone, thank you very little.

[bloom]

37. I noticed this book in the bookstore -

"Adam's Curse" : A Future without Men
by Bryan Sykes ( a geneticist)

I skimmed a little. He seemed quite obsessed that women could carry on reproductively without men.

And threw in a little jab saying women are responsible for toxic waste and everything else that is the matter with the world because men are just trying to please women.

(I don't recommend buying it.)

[quiet.american]

6. Bill Maher's usage of the term turned me off

Bill Maher repeatedly used the term "feminization" during a taping of one of his HBO specials at which I was in attendance.

The impression I was left with after the taping in regard to his perspective of women is that he's a man so resentful, bitter and angry towards women that he actually hates them. God help whoever he dates.

Maybe there is a genuine area to be addressed, but this whole "feminization" thing comes off to me as whining from men who have SERIOUS ISSUES about women.

[Ripley]

13. Very interesting.

You caught his live vibe huh? I can only discuss his politics having seen him on TV.

Of course there are always the feelings of resentment, bitterness and anger when the term "feminization of males" comes up.

I don't wish to embitter or anger men. But it always seems to be about them now isn't it?

[quiet.american]

16. Yep -- Can you say, "Viagra." :)

Seriously, I never knew so many men had such trouble, to put it politely, becoming aroused. Is this why they're feeling "feminized?"

If all the monies, research and promotion that goes into Viagra went into improving quality of life for both genders, could you imagine how much better off this planet would be?

Maybe that's too "feminine" a thought for our <faux>macho friends.

[Ripley]

20. Well, about that Viagra thing...

I believe more men are experiencing impotence (thus the need for Viagra type drugs) is because they are taking other drugs like cholesterol lowering drugs and anti-depressants. The side effects are clear.

Men, and women, in their middle ages should seriously look in their medicine pack. Why are you taking BP/cholesterol/anxiety drugs in the first place????

America is over-prescribed since TV ads for drugs became "cool."

Get off the meds. Boing!

(disclaimer: I'm no doc, so don't quit your meds until you research it yourself!)

[quiet.american]

21. Love your disclaimer! lol

[Eloriel]

28. Maher is a confirmed misogynist -- tho I doubt he recognizes that

like so many others, he claims to "love" women (mostly sexually, of course, with real commitment issues which he's quite proud of). I've watched him for a long time and there's no doubt in my mind. There are many things I like about him, but I've come to see him as a very pathetic, terribly wounded creature where women are concerned, and his misogynism gets in the way of my appreciation sometimes. Actually, BECAUSE of his humor and talent he actually gets more latitude from me than any other misogynist I know.

[smirkymonkey]

54. You've noticed that too, huh?

I thought maybe I was being too sensitive, but it radiates from him.

[bumblebee1]

59. Of course Bill Maher loves women

as long as they look like residents of the Playboy mansion.

[elehhhhna]

8. If we'd get back in the dang kitchen, they'd feeeeeel like men again?

That's perverse.

[expatriot]

9. the androgynization of society is natural progression of

technological and economic development of the society.

Just as there is female liberation, the liberation of the female from her primal bio-culturally defined sex role.... so to is there "male liberation - the liberation fo the male from his primal bio-culturally defined sex role.


I am a man who is free to be effeminate. I mother my cats and comfort my wife.

[One_Life_To_Give]

35. Can't have that

Go home and be the King of your castle. Kick the cat, beat the wife, fart, scratch and drink beer. No deviation in the male role is allowed! :sarcasm:

[Maat]

45. Your a good man, like my husband, expatriot.

[kweerwolf]

10. I've noticed a lot of anti-feminist rhetoric ...

in the gay community recently and it sickens me. There are a lot of gay men who "advertise" themselves as "straight-acting and masculine" as if it's much of an achievement. I mean, c'mon ... how "straight-acting and masculine" can one appear while going down on another guy? The anti-feminist undercurrents in the gay community seems to me to be just another form of internalized homophobia: If we can put down women, then we are really putting down the feminine parts of ourselves.

The problem with attitudes like this is that it starts from the basic assumption that there is something intrinsically wrong with being female and it's something that should be guarded against if one has a penis.

When I hear a man - gay or straight - bitching about the "feminization" of men, my first thought is: Geez, fella! Get over yourself! You're displaying a lot more of your own hang-ups and insecurities about yourself then you are making a point about "feminine" men.

Guys like that need to be reminded that if they get a dog and call it "Life," they can always say they have one.

[jobycom]

15. I'm not sure that's an anti-feminist reaction

The odd thing about the recent gay rights advances is that gay has become equated with "effeminate," as in a man who acts effeminate, dresses well, speaks in a "gay" voice and looks like a flamer on Queer Eye. The fact that most gay men aren't like that doesn't seem to bother, or even occur, to mainstream America. I keep hearing otherwise liberal people say things like "You can tell he's gay, look at him" or "look at how he dresses," or "look at what music he listens to." Pick your stereotype.

My gay friends have mixed opinions on this whole trend. On the one hand, it's nice to see homosexuality being accepted as normal, even trendy. On the other, the stereotype that is being created is not that accurate, or inclusive, and in some ways it is equating what is basically an emotional choice with an outward style of action and dress that isn't usually accurate. In fact, I'd say what the MSM is labelling "gay" these days looks a lot more like crossdressing than like any emotional choice.

I think that's more what gay men are reacting against when they describe themselves as "straight-acting" or masculine. It's against a stereotype, not against a gender.

[Eloriel]

29. Recent?

You have GOT to be kidding me. Just how old ARE you, anyway?

The odd thing about the recent gay rights advances is that gay has become equated with "effeminate,"

Honey, gay has been equated with effeminate (for men) for as long as I've been alive and no DOUBT a good deal longer -- like centuries if not millennia.

[Chovexani]

33. Nothing new under the sun

There have also been woman-hating queens for as long as there has been homosexuality on planet Earth. It's not a new thing.

A very good friend of mine drunk some Koolaid a couple years ago and went through a nasty phase where he liked to mouth off about "fish". 'Course this is not a very smart thing to do when the circle of friends includes several women (self included) who used to march in the Pride Parade dressed like Xena, and own dozens of real-live swords. ;)

(We brought him to his senses very quickly)

I believe very much in the theory that homophobia is deeply rooted in sexism. Just look at all the cultures where it's acceptable to engage in buggery as long as you're the guy on top. Hell, you see this all the time with guys on the Down Low, who swear up and down they are straight because they're not the one bending over. All "Fag" really means is being too much like a woman.

I also think the reason why lesbianism is more tolerated, if not actually ignored, is because people think it's not "real" because there's no dude involved.

So much ignorance...and really, it all goes back to hate and fear of women. They'd burn us again, if they could.

[Eloriel]

34. Are you familiar with the book by Suzanne Pharr

Homophobia: A Tool of Sexism?

It's dynamite, and one of the very best expositions of oppression (of any class) that I've ever seen. Excellent, excellent book. MUST read for liberals and progressives, IMO.

Excellent post.

[Chovexani]

36. Thanks, I'll have to read it

It's so depressing, everywhere you look around these days it seems women's lives and energy are valued less and less. It's been this way for a long, long time, of course but it just feels so pervasive lately. I think we all need to educate ourselves about the root of this problem so we are better equipped to solve it.

[bobbieinok]

52. have read several articles that stated that many think a man is gay

only if he's the one 'on the bottom'

guys who 'use' guys in prison apparently do not consider themselves homosexual

BTW, have read, 'cock sucker' means 'you act like a woman'.....only women do this, they are forced by the more powerful one to do this

yet doesn't the person doing this 'control' the person being 'done'?

IMO, we are very confused about sex and sexuality......eg, man is more important because he is active, penetrates......and woman is weak and passive, because she is penetrated......yet there is the fear, partly expressed by 'vagina dentata' (sp?)

[atommom]

11. I'm getting sick of the feminization schtick.

It looks to me like simple fear and dislike of women, which is unfortunately part of the religious right's agenda as well. These men feel that they don't have enough power, enough strength, enough respect in the world today, and guess whose fault it is? That's right, it's those uppity women. (And also the liberal men, who are too soft, too much like women.) In their distress, they look for someone to lash out at, and women are safe targets (especially when the right-wing and the Promise Keepers are so willing to make them so).

Bill Maher sometimes amuses me, but I'm puzzled by the misogyny. It makes me think less of him ... because I see it as a failure of maturity and logic. When he talks about women, all I see is a bitter 13-year-old boy.

For the record, I live with a man too. But if he wishes I were subservient, he's smart enough not to say so. ;)

[bloom]

38. This guy seems to speak for him

yes - the pit bull man and proud of it.

I hate to advertise him - but he does such a damn good job of exposing this "Christian Masculinst" attitude.

http://www.townhall.com/c

Such as:

What is Man? Curbing Co-dependency and Eradicating Irresponsibility
Doug Giles

December 11, 2004

I hate to get your panties in a wad, you pomosexual gender-line-blurrers , you, but the vast, vast majority of American men want to be more like William Wallace and less like Will and Grace. 

From the thousands of positive emails I receive week after week from men and women regarding my polemic attempts in print, radio and TV to re-inject, guard and perpetuate the testosterone attitude … it seems that the general populace isn’t queuing up for a radical dose of 21st century misandry.

Yes, much to my delight, we “non-progressives” are not cool with the metrosexual healing the cultural quacks are attempting to administer to the male collective, and we are going back towards the traditional definitions of the role of men in society.
<more>

[beam me up scottie]

39. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa KABLAM !

My head just exploded.
Where did you find this genital wart?
He didn't miss a single stereotype, did he?

*****
Naturally, men were the pillars of the public, being responsible to God, to family, to church and to their culture as providers and protectors of family and friends. It was the man who steered the family unit and civilization with firmness, directing them with rules and principles, being dependable, loving and just. In ancient times the father was not a mere Al Bundy-like sperm donor who lived at Hooters, but a community elder, a moderator and a servant leader who created edicts and ordered kingdoms.

One bigger-than-Dallas-sized sign that America could be headed down the toilet is how today’s metrosexual man avoids responsibility and accountability and is allowed to blame low blood sugar, his inner child, the environment or the freaky yellow wall paper on his delivery room wall as the reason why he hasn’t “gotten with it.”

My ClashPoint is this: if concerned conservatives want to improve our nation, then we have got to resist the current culture of man hatred, wherever and whenever we find it, whether that means not going to movies with an emasculating message, or shouting “that’s bull**t” when we hear and see this stuff on TV or in the classroom, or, more positively, developing old school ways of creating environments conducive to raising warriors and wild men. Whatever peaceful form this resistance takes … it is a must that we verbally wail our disapproval of this incessant dissing of men.

Look, our times demand strong men more than Mariah Carey does Evian … and only Evian water for her Pekinese. It is up to us middle-aged old boys to preserve and perpetuate the grand testosterone fog God created us to live in for the next generation of young warriors.
*****

"the grand testosterone fog God created us to live in" ?

This worm is the poster child in the movement for performing retroactive abortions.


uck, need to take a virtual shower now...

[bloom]

40. It's scary to think

that he has a pulpit and a radio show.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Well, that explains

where all of the recently departed trolls are getting their ideas.

I'm starting to think I need to make an exit plan.

If these creatures start gaining more power, this country will be a lot less safer for women and gays than it is now.

And that's saying something.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. What's with the Mariah Carey comment?

These dorks fixate on the weirdest things...

He IS pretty scary, but overall the tone is one of petulance. The metrosexual thing is clearly bugging him to no end. I bet it's because he's never had to worry about his looks before, but now he's having to compete with these buffed and pedicured guys for the attention of women. And that sucks, so of course we must hasten a return to the good old days! Back when only women were expected to diet and bathe regularly!

[beam me up scottie]

44. That is probably

incredibly accurate.
He does sound like he's on the verge, doesn't he?
Jeez, let's hope all of the men like him meet with such a fate.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. Awfully sunny view of ancient times

"It was the man who steered the family unit and civilization with firmness, directing them with rules and principles, being dependable, loving and just. In ancient times the father was not a mere Al Bundy-like sperm donor who lived at Hooters, but a community elder, a moderator and a servant leader who created edicts and ordered kingdoms."

Right, that was the era when fathers could order their newborn children killed, marry their daughters off to anyone THEY saw fit, and kill their wives for real or imagined adultery while they themselves kept mistresses.

[atommom]

12. And BTW, I shared your frustration with sci-fi as a girl.

I loved reading sci-fi, but it was so damn sexist most of the time! I was pissed off by that at a very early age ... must have been born liberal... ;)

[Ripley]

17. Kindred spirit!

Ray Bradbury was my first. Fran Tarkenton was my hero.

I was a Tom Boy. Heh! See? It's good for girls to have male "attributes" but bad, bad, bad to the bone if boys have female "attributes."

Emeril anyone?

[jobycom]

19. I played with dolls

I once got thrown out of a restaurant for having long hair, too, when I was eight.

I still have no gender identity. I cook, I shop, I fix my own cars and wire my own house, I read chick lit and watch chick flix. My spouse, as much as we don't get along, is like that, too. She mows the lawn, she makes more money than me, she's lousy with the kids. Even our problems are the reverse of the stereotypical roles.

Gender stereotypes aren't natural, they are purely the creation of our society. I believe that aside from a few obvious physical details, there is very little real difference between genders--it's all cultural. Iwas arguing with a woman over chivalry once. I thought it was degrading, and the source of much inequality. She said maybe, but deep inside every woman there is a little girl who wants her knight to come save her. I told her that deep inside every man there is a little boy who wants his mother to do the same thing. It's the same basic psychological need, but in a woman it's a virtue, in a man it's an emotional hangup. The only difference is how culture views it, not the need itself.

[atommom]

22. I mostly played with dinosaurs, bugs, and toy horses.

Now I have an encyclopedic knowledge of all sorts of things my sons are interested in (or might catch in the back yard). But if I had girls, I'm betting they'd be interested too.

[jobycom]

24. I played with that stuff, too. I just didn't limit what I played with.

I have only daughters. It's funny, but I've tried to teach them not to follow gender stereotypes, and I've led by example. So I've stayed home more than my wife, I've cooked, and cleaned house. So now my twelve year old daughter, who wants to be like me, wants to cook and clean house. I've worked it into a circle!! My youngest one likes the side of me that works on cars and builds things, though. Even my oldest is a bit of a tomboy--until she was six, she told everyone she was a boy, and got into a huge argument with my father, who's more traditional but not bad. So she asked me, "Dad, am I a boy or a girl?" I told her she could be whatever she wanted to be. My father caught the hint, with a little prodding from my mother, and he let it go.

She didn't believe she was a boy, she just identified with me more than her mother, so the parts of her she valued most were boy parts. I did nothing to encourage or discourage her in that. Now she is one of the most grounded human beings of any age I've ever met, and she has literally had teachers stand up before her entire school and say just that. Her third grade teacher called her the wisest and sweetest child she's ever met, in front of the whole school. She has a deeper awareness of people's inner motivations than most adults. And I believe it had a lot to do with me never trying to force her into any roles. I got criticized a lot by my family, who misunderstood why I didn't dress her in cute ribbons and bows. But i like the result. They do, too, now, though they don't give me proper credit for it.

I despise any stereotypes, any assumptions about people based on gender, race, age, or whatever. It is my defining ideology, that every human being is unique, and any stereotype is a travesty. It's why I'm a liberal. And the Promise Keepers are exactly what I see our battle as against.

[Eloriel]

30. I thought so too, once upon a time

Gender stereotypes aren't natural, they are purely the creation of our society.

And then I had a child of my own. I gave him "dolls" and stuffed toys galore and he wasn't the least bit interested. The FIRST time he ever got a toy car in his hands, he knew exactly what to do with it.

No, there ARE differences in the sexes which are not purely cultural. Many if not most ARE cultural (for better or ill), but not all.

[bobbieinok]

53. my son and many of his friends (4-6 or so) got GI Joe dolls and treated

them like baby dolls, rocked them to sleep, etc

I was stunned....I thought when my son picked out a GI Joe doll at a garage sale that that was it: now everything would be war and fighting

[atommom]

48. My two sons LOVE Emeril.

Of course, they see their dad cooking gourmet meals, so they want to do the same!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Ah yes, those all-male science fiction stories

That's what was so brilliant about Ursula LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness.

Because the typical sci-fi story at the time was all male, you didn't notice at first that the Gethenians were all the same gender.

[Nobody]

55. I loved sci-fi too

Read it three times, because the first time I read it, I came away with the following ideas:

1) all Gethenians being described in terms of feminine behavior/body functions (mad King Argaven being pregnant) were described negatively while masculine traits were described positively.

2) The pronouns. I can see Genly Ai's first person viewpoint describing them all as masculine using he/him/his all over the place, because he was human, had to think in terms of male/female and these aliens were male to him, even the pregnant King. This made sense, but why was Estraven's first person viewpoint almost identical in voice to Genly's? Estraven isn't male and wouldn't use "he" or "she" about fellow Gethenians. (Read the short story Enemy Mine is based on, there are no masculine or feminine pronouns to refer to either Jeriba Shigan or Zammis, it was much less distracting to my 14 year old self, looking for the traitorous "he" after Jeriba Shigan gives birth to Zammis.)

3) The arrival of the Terran ship with the human female character. Genly Ai saw her as more alien than the Gethenians. My first reading thought was that the point of the book was to show that females are always the outsiders, the alien, the other. Even non-human if a human male can see them as masculine even when there is no gender to speak of, they can relate to them better than to a female of their own species. The book read like a huge lesson in male bonding. I'd read it after reading tons of feminist theory and got a huge dose of Lionel Tiger's "Men in Groups" ideas deconstructed.

However, after the second and third reading, and after reading a couple interviews with Ursula K. LeGuin, she used the masculine pronouns because she didn't think she had any other options outside inventing a new one, which she was unwilling to do, I'm much more forgiving about the pronoun thing.

"Coming of Age in Karhide" was a short story taking place on Gethen, told in the first person. No lurking pronouns anywhere.

Some time between "Left Hand of Darkness" and "Coming of Age in Karhide" she wrote another story about Argaven and used all feminine pronouns.

"The Dispossessed" was a great novel, and the true name idea from the Earthsea series was a cool concept. Did you see "Earthsea" on the sci-fi channel when it was on last year?

[SnowGoose]

14. What's funny is most wing nuts deny the *real* feminization

which is actually happening to males due to estrogen mimics and other endocrine disruptors that we're dumping into the environment.

There's at least one thing hard core right wingers are good for - they're excellent irony generators.

[MountainLaurel]

23. Great point SnowGoose!

There's been a lot of local press about that here in the DC area because of the fish found in various spots along the Potomac -- from the headwaters to the Chesapeake -- where the males also have female sex organs.

From what I've read, it's happening more frequently among humans as well.

I'm sure the Reich-wingers will be :crazy: once they discover that their precious male babies aren't quite all that.

[jobycom]

18. Jesus wore a robe and kissed other men, and he never fought back

So he was pretty damned "feminized" by their misogynist standards. That whole bit of letting the enemy soldiers take him away to his death while ordering Peter to sheath his sword is pretty damned pacifist and liberal, too. Only a "feminized" male would heal the enemy rather than dropping bombs on his children.

I agree with you, Ripley. Sick trend by insecure men. The whole idea of feminine and masculine changes with each culture. What would have been male behavior in the days of Jesus, for instance, would be feminine now. For the Athenians a real man would be intelligent, thin, non-inulgent in physical pleasures, and what we now call gay, or at least bi. Sex with a lot of women was foppish, and feminine. Sex with young boys--virile, manly.

The word feminization means nothing. It's just another false ideal conservatives create to justify their hatreds and fears.

[Ripley]

25. Words have power.

The word Feminization means everything, not "nothing".

Sorry, I see things getting worse, not better.

Despite your better efforts...read your posts, good for yall.

[jobycom]

26. They have only the power and meaning we give them

I'm not sure you understood my post, or I don't understand yours. Your "everything/nothing" statement was pure semantics. The word has no clear meaning like "water," or "love," it's an empty word that they can define however they want. The power doesn't come from the word, or the concept, it comes from the hatred these fools create and then react to.

As for things getting worse, I didn't say or imply otherwise. That's been a big argument of mine since I joined this board years ago. We can lose what we've gained. Even failing to progress is a loss in itself.

[Echo Three Bravo]

56. I know this is a little technical, but....

Jesus did kick people out of the temple with a whip so I would have a hard time saying he was against violence in general. One also has to remember that Jesus was here for a particular purpose: To offer himself as the final sacrifice for the sins of mankind. If he never let himself be taken to his death, then that couldn't have happened.

As for healing the enemy, it's not as odd as you might think. US Marines are taught from boot camp that they are to administer first aid to all wounded, be it friendly or enemy. Obviously the preference is given to friendly forces, then to innocents, with enemy combatants taking lower priority (given the same severity of the injury).

I do agree with you that gender roles and behavior are defined by culture. Of course, viewed as such, is it any wonder that people see changing these roles and behavior as an affront to their culture? Keep in mind that culture involves many things to include gender roles, appearance, food, family, religion, etc. They are all connected and it's hard, if not impossible to change some of then without having implications for the rest. Some, like food, are fairly easily changed while leaving the rest untouched but if you change, in this case gender roles, it will have implications for appearance, family, religion, etc.

If people are happy with, indeed often times proud of, their culture then it stands to reason that they don't want it meddled with. Therefore, don't be surprised when you meet with opposition when you try to change things. It's just the way the world works.

Again, I know I'm being a little technical, but attention to detail can make or break an argument.

[Eloriel]

31. Absolutely brilliant post, Ripley

This took my breath away:

While it is not spoken, the people who claim boys and men are being turned away from their God-given inherent rights to simply be, well...boys (I'm still not sure of the list of those attributes, but let me guess...control over their girlfriend/wife, physical aggression, inappropriate behavior towards women, sex-on-demand for starters)...are implying that girls and women are also being turned away from their God-given inherent rights to simply be girls (let me guess again...to alter their physical body to be more "sexy", to obey their men's wishes, to be meek and not speak out, especially not loudly).

The evolving culture on this planet (not just the USA) is in response to some horrible practices that have occurred since humans created societies. It is absurd to call these historical injustices "human" when the people perpetrating them were 99% "male."


Wonderful, beautiful, energizing to see a wonderfully feminist thought/argument beautifully articulated. BIG, big smile.

[tnlefty]

32. I've found this frustrating for quite some time and I agree with

you that some of these attitudes seem to be getting worse not better.

I'm raising 3 boys and I've taken crap in how they are raised since the oldest (now 15) was 2 yrs. old. He wanted a play kitchen for Christmas one year and my in-laws went bonkers! All 3 of my kids played with that damned thing. They played with cars, trucks, planes, too. They would rather build rockets than play organized sports. They read, play instruments, don't fight, aren't bullies and they sometimes talk of feeling pressured to be more aggressive.

During the past decade I've had crappy comments made to me about basically being more of a doormat by women around me. This trend has been increasing in frequency during the last 5-6 yrs. and it just blows my mind.

I understand the point that you're making and I feel the pressure with raising males and being a feminist.

[Nikia]

42. Men should be who they want to be too

I think sometimes that gender stereotypes can be even more limiting for men now. Some men really do want to be emotional and caring, be valued more for their family rather than career, be pacifists in the wake of violence, treat women as people and not sex objects, take care of their appearance and things, do "feminine" things, or not do some "masculine" things. We must be supportive of these men as well as support "feminine" things in society and in all people.
If we only support the rights of women to do "masculine" things in order to gain more wealth power, or prestigue; we are supporting patriarchy. We are just supporting the right of more women to become honorary men.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. The macho-macho man type may have been functional when

we humans were living off the land and needed guys who would fight off the bears and go out and kill an antelope for dinner, but in modern society, it's utterly dysfunctional, the cause of wars, crimes, feuds, and general unpleasantness.

There are ways to be masculine without being mean and dumb. Unfortunately, it suits the fascist wannabes to encourage males to be mean and dumb--they make better cannon fodder and/or storm troopers that way.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. Not the mention the acceptance of male promiscuity and polygamy

In the past, it was probably useful for guys to go around impregnating as many women as they could since maternal and infant mortality was common and people succumbed to famine and disease regularly. And the ever-present need for soldiers. It also made sense for women to agree to be one of multiple wives of a guy with a lot of resources.

But now? Come on people! There are 6 billion of us and growing. It's time to put the brakes on patriarchal sexual dynamics before it's too late.

[NMMNG]

57. Oh, for pete's sake

Fine, men want to be men? Let them run around in the woods for a weekend (buck naked if they choose) scratching themselves, farting, neglecting to bathe, drinking beer, burping, eating like slobs, wiping their hands on their clothes and sleeping where they like. The women will probably be grateful for the quiet (not to mention the greatly reduced workload in the home). They may even suggest the guys make it a monthly event.

[Kipling]

58. There never was this historic "golden age of machismo"

Masculinity nowadays seems to consist of leering at breasts, drinking beer and fighting. In reality there never WAS an age when this was all men did.