Anybody see the documentary "Purity" last week??

[NuckinFutz]

It was about the Orthodox Jewish ritual Miqveh? Women must have this ritual bathing after their menses before they can have sex with their husbands again. They are seen as impure if they don't, and not following this ritual can be grounds for divorce...

[jojo54]

1. Impure????

Gee, I thought the menses was the grounds for procreation. Or am I just an old lady in today's times???

[NuckinFutz]

2. Yes, impure...I guess it's that whole thing with Eve

and the forbidden fruit.

The rule is so strict that a woman cannot touch any part of her husband's skin while she's on her period and up until she goes to miqveh, even if he is sick and needs her physical support. At those times, she can only touch his clothing. If she is ill, he can't help her at all.

I've come to the conclusion that fundementalism is scary in all flavors...I saw this film and I'm more confused about the millenia long hostilities between the Jews and the Muslims. The way they treat women doesn't seem that different.

[jojo54]

3. It's just the opposite here.

If the man is sick, he acts like a baby and wants 24/7 attention from the woman. Go figure........

[highlonesome]

4. Some insight on this

Something I'd like to offer up on this from the limited experience I have with some close friends who are Orthodox Jews:

I have some fairly close friends in a family of very observant Orthdox Jews and I do know for a fact that the wife/mother of the family observes this ritual along with her friends. My impression of it is that this is more a PART of an entire constellation of rituals and practices they use rather than a definitive function of their religious observation.

Probably the simplest way I could describe them is that they're very definitely a "hippie" couple -- he has a highly successful vintage guitar business and she's an adept homeschooler -- and that they're unbelievably devoted to their family.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that their observance of this one ritual practice is more a means to maintain their Jewish identity and community rather than it is a way to oppress the women in the family. From what I can tell, the wife/mother of this family is anything BUT oppressed. They're a vey close couple with a great amount of mutual respect for each other and she's highly outspoken with excellently informed opinions.

So while at face value it may seem foreign and oppressive to many of us, in practice it may not be.

[NuckinFutz]

6. I found the whole thing interesting..

While I don't like the oppressiveness it's seems to have sprung from, I can understand your point of maintaining the Jewish identity. As for myself, I think I might choose another ritual to keep than that one. The whole idea of menstruating women being impure rubs me the wrong way.

To be fair, some of the women interviewed did not see it as oppressive. One woman, who had moved to Israel from New York, described her experiences with miqveh in New York as being like an escape, like a day at the spa, almost. She did admit that the ritual in Israel is not like that, and that it was more just something she had to do. She was kind of indifferent to it. Another couple described how they decided, together, before marriage, to observe this ritual. I guess for them, they were able to get past the oppressive connotations of it. In both these cases, the woman decided it would be something they would do for their husbands. It seemed more a personal gift/promise to the spouse than it did a religious ritual.

However, there was one woman interviewed who wound up divorced because she would not follow the ritual. And another woman was consulting a doctor because her periods were very erratic; she spotted in between cycles almost every month. It was causing problems and they were seriously discussing histerectomy. From the description of the problem, it didn't seem truly medically necessary, but more elective. I had problems with that, too.

[highlonesome]

7. Some context

First I'd also offer that to Orthodox Judaism the refusal to observe any of the rituals is probably grounds for divorce -- not just this one. For instance the family I talked about observed the Sabbath every week. He'd close the doors to be home before sundown on Friday and they observed until sundown on Saturday. They had some funny stories around the Sabbath -- like the kids would check the TV guide on Friday afternoon and plan the best channel to leave the TV on so they could watch some shows. You could watch -- you just couldn't manipulate the TV during Sabbath.

So if one spouse refused to observe the Sabbath, I'd figure that to their religion that would also be grounds for divorce.

Second, nearly all the rituals of Orthodoxy revolve around the idea of purity for everybody -- not just women. Only women, however, menstruate. That's what all the kosher rules are about as well. If an Orthodox Jew refused to observe Kosher laws I'd say that's probably grounds for divorce as well.

As an ironic aside -- my friend who I learned these things from who's and Orthodox Jew actually converted to Orthodoxy to marry his wife. He finds many rules difficult to abide and he's often been known to sneak an un-kosher Snickers bar from time to time.

Another thing -- I think they're both quite glad that there's no Orthodox rules against reefer!

[NuckinFutz]

8. Well, now I'm really curious...

I'm going to have to read up on all this. Religions and rituals fascinate me.

[Lars39]

5. The mystery author Fay Kellerman touches on this in one of her books.

Very interesting insight to the Orthodox Jewish world.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. Actually, in two of her books

The first book in the series is called The Ritual Bath, and in a later book, I forget which one, Rina has to go to a poorly maintained mikvah, and the description is rather disgusting.

By the way, as I understand it, the ritual bath is supposed to be for anyone who has become ritually unclean.