DU on the DUKE indictments

[nashville_brook]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2231753#2231759

not for the faint of heart. check out the arguments used against the women. so much for democrats being 'enlightened' with regard to the operation of class and power with regard to women's rights.

[Fierce]

1. one of the biggest lies

...is that all progressive men are progressive toward women. I just about hurled when I saw a thread on Kos saying "pimp your local candidate here!"

[bloom]

5. I think it's getting worse

I could be wrong - maybe it was always this bad. If there had been message boards like this in the 70's - I suppose the un-progressive progressives would have shown up there too.

[Fierce]

6. It's hard to say.

I think it's always two steps forward, 1 1/2 steps back. Just when you think you're getting somewhere...

[GalleryGod]

2. Covered in glory.

SOP in some neighborhoods round here.

[Finder]

3. The media is the culprit...

and is bringing out all the "isms" usually kept under wraps. I think the smears against the alleged victim and the spin on the evidence is unforgivable. I also think the "guilty due to being rich, white athletes" is just as idiotic.

Choosing a jury for the trial will be interesting if DU is any example of the bias out there.

[Virginia Dare]

4. It has come to my attention...

certain people here are in need of a chill pill.

:hide:

[Ian David]

7. I have no clue what did or did not happen in the Duke case...

What I do know is this:

One woman may or may not have been raped.

This is a tragedy that deserves investigation and prosecution.

And while the MSM obsesses over this one single instance of possible rape, this is what they're ignoring:

Mass rape atrocity in west Sudan

Last Updated: Friday, 19 March, 2004, 13:21 GMT

More than 100 women have been raped in a single attack carried out by Arab militias in Darfur in western Sudan.

Speaking to the BBC, the United Nations co-ordinator for Sudan, Mukesh Kapila, said the conflict had created the worst humanitarian situation in the world.

He said more than one million people were being affected by ethnic cleansing.

He said the fighting was characterised by a scorched-earth policy and was comparable in character, if not in scale, to the 1994 Rwandan genocide.

"It is more than just a conflict. It is an organised attempt to do away with a group of people," he said.

Arab militias, backed by the government, have driven hundreds of thousands from their homes, in retaliation for a rebellion launched a year ago by two armed groups.

They accused the Arab-dominated government of ignoring the black African inhabitants of Darfur.

More than 100,000 people have fled across the border into Chad, but have continued to face cross-border raids.

More:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3549325.stm

[bloom]

9. While it's nice to be concerned about women in Africa

a lot of women are concerned about their lives right here, right now.


683,000 forcible rapes occur every year, which equals 56,916 per month, 1,871 per day, 78 per hour, and 1.3 per minute. (National Victim Center and Crime Victim Research and Treatment Center, 1992)

While there are an average of 683,000 forcible rapes in any given year, in 1993 there were only 29,432 arrests for the same crime.
(Uniform Crime Reports for the United States, 1993)

http://www.actabuse.com/SAstatistics.html

[Ian David]

11. And while we concentrate on this ONE sensationalistic case...

What happens to the next one of those 683,000 forcible rape victims who are afraid to come forward because of the publicity surrounding the Duke case?

The MSM hasn't been talking about rape.

The MSM has been exploiting a single rape for its sensationalistic value.

The MSM hasn't opened a dialog. They've created a side-show.

And what happens to the next one of those 683,000 forcible rape victims if the woman turns out to be a liar? What does it to to the next woman's chances of coming forward? Of succeeding in court if she does?

[bloom]

15. "And what happens to the next one"

That is why it would be a good thing if at least the people who are supposedly progressive would stop repeating lies such as the one who was posting things from right-wing sites saying that half of all rape reports are false.

People do need to put things in perspective.

If people are only going to listen to and repeat the defense line- they would be better off not saying anything.

I happen to think that there is enough evidence that the woman was attacked - even though there may not be enough evidence to convect certain people.

I think it makes sense to support the rape victim - just as it makes sense to support all rape victims and demand that the victim not be the one who is painted as the guilty one.

Ignoring cases doesn't help. Letting the commentators who want to argue that it is the perpetrators who are the "innocent victims" and whose lives we don't want to have damaged (through their own actions) doesn't help.

I think people need to wake up and start expecting the justice to support the victims and hand our proportionate sentences. And stop arguing against such. At least people who want to call themselves progressives.

[nashville_brook]

18. maybe someone could venture in Freeperville and grab some of their

quotes and do a comparison. i'll head that way myself. should be disgusting.

[bobbieinok]

37. right now the 'big' thing is victims' rights....unless you're a rape victi

victim......then the man/men you accuse become the victims who must have their rights protected........very weird

[nashville_brook]

17. it's up to US -- lets start right here, right now

LETS OPEN UP A DIALOGUE! right here on DU. in GD. in LBN. everywhere this issue comes up, don't let your DU colleagues go around ignorant.

i know we're all sick and tired of fighting. this doesn't have to be a fight. the main reason i've gotten active on this is because there's so much ignorance flying around here. i can't believe that "right-thinking" progressives would present the arguments i'm seeing IF THEY HAD a basic understanding of the issue.

people don't understand WHAT rape is. (hint -- it's not sex).
people don't understand the interplay of MONEY and POWER in bringing this charge.
people don't understand that reporting a rape isn;t the same as reporting a ROBBERY (why didn't they just come forward faster?)
people don't understand that EXOTIC dancers have a right not to be RAPED (they were asking for it).
people REALLY don't understand the REAL ORIGIN of RAPE -- that it's HATE, not SEX.


i could go on and on, but i have to finish my post for GD.

[Ian David]

31. There will be NO WINNERS in this case

I've been staying out of the threads on this topic, so I'm not familiar with how wrong-headed some of our fellow DUers may be on this subject.

It also sounds like maybe I don't WANT to know what our fellow liberal progressives are saying that's gotten you so riled-up.

But it sounds like whatever is going on, you are well-equipped to confront it.

It seems unlikely that anything positive will come of this particular case.

If the woman is lying, then people will use her to ridicule other rape victims into silence and to sway juries and judges against them.

And even if there are convictions, and the woman was telling the truth, she will be subjected to such public denigration and humiliation that countless others will be afraid to come forward out of fear they will be lynched in the media.

If she's telling the truth-- and I have absolutely no idea if she is-- then she's going to be raped twice. Once by her attackers, and again by the media.

Whatever the outcome, nobody wins, and all people who are raped will have this public spectacle foremost in their minds before they decide if they want to come forward.

If you were raped, would you want Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly picking apart your life story and speculating about your motivation and armchair psychoanalyzing you? How many people are going to ask themselves a question like that before going to the police?

If you were raped by Rick Santorum or Bill O'Reilly, and you went to the cops, would you be prepared to be torn apart by the media for the course of a trial that could drag on for years?

[barb162]

36. and the defense lawyers will rape her again in court most likely

[ugarte]

8. I promise myself this is the last Duke thread I'll post on

I simply don't know enough to have an opinion on this and many other criminal cases, but that seems politically unacceptable to some.

[bloom]

10. What I find "politically unacceptable"

are those who insist on offending the victim and making her out to be the "guilty" one. And insisting that everything the Defense attorney says in the truth.

You are welcome to go ahead and ignore it.

[KoKo]

12. It gets into "Sports" and "team against team" and Race....and the Media

and the Bush types have made that their whole cause from the War on Terror, War on Women, War on Seniors, War on Education, War on Envirnoment, War on Religion...War....War....War.....

We used to have good discussions here when we disagreed and there were some angry flame wars...but the Duke thing has gone to another level. So has the McKinney thing.....which was kind of shocking...

But...it's the way it is today. Everything has to be ANGRY and FULL OF HATE.

[ugarte]

13. So, I promise myself again

I believe in giving both the accuser and those accused the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise why have juries? We could just poll the public for a verdict. I would never presume to say the accuser is lying and I will not presume the guilt of the accused before they've been convicted--not just on this case, but every case.

I don't think they are mutually exclusive positions.

[nashville_brook]

16. my problem is that the sentiment of "lets not try this case in the media"

is followed by long discussions of how the woman was somehow at fault. the people who cry loudest that they don't want to form an opinion on this (interesting concept for DU, no having an opinion), do so in posts that conflate the mere accusation of rape AS AN ASSAULT ON THE MEN!

i'm referring to this thread. not all threads have been this dark.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2231753#2231759

[ugarte]

21. You seem to want to put words in my mouth

or lump me with other posters. As an Hispanic, I could make the same point about racist, Hispanic-bashing threads I see here everyday. We could all play the "race" card, so to speak. Let's not.

[nashville_brook]

24. read the thread i reference and tell me if this isn't women-bashing

i'm not putting words in your mouth. i'm stating the need for more LIGHT this issue. not more HEAT -- stressing the words that are already out there in the linked thread.

this thread is a call to get some help with shedding light. we can't hide everytime one of these stories come up and blame the media for not doing their job. we're not doing our job if we ignore our own prejudices.

______________________


it's a whole other issue... but *race* per se isn't playing out in this case as much as class. the whole structure of the allegation is about class division. the poor school vs the rich school. the stripper vs the athlete. the single mother vs the trust fund kid. granted, the allegations and witnesses cite racial slurs used against the women -- but that's not where the case is taking us.

this case is taking us into murky water. it's much more complex than race.

[ugarte]

25. I'm not arguing there isn't women-bashing going on...

I'm just not for making a criminal case into a political litmus test. As you note, it is complex. I'm old enough to remember OJ, and there was some of this same stuff flying around.

[bloom]

28. I think now

that there are indictments and arrests - that where there would have been more people screaming that the woman was guilty - now we are having more people trying to argue that we shouldn't talk about it.

(makes you go - hmmmm).

[Buzz Clik]

19. DNA evidence? Photos?

The initial reaction on the Duke campus was that the Lacross team was a bunch of elitist meatheads. However, when the DNA evidence came out, and the photos showing the woman sporting her bruises when she first arrived, and the false and entrapping emails by the cops, the campus turned in support of the team.

When you have have the DA getting national face time and local politicians appearing every night on Hannity and Whoever spouting that the University kids are a bunch of spoiled white boys whose daddies will do their damndest to get them off, justice is in the toilet. These kids are being used as pawns in the "what if they were falsely accused and black" screaming matches.

puke.

[nashville_brook]

20. do you have links to any of these points of information?

[Buzz Clik]

27. links...

There are dozens upon dozens:

DNA: http://www.kfdx.com/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=11565
photos: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1848351&page=1

I strongly suggest we not pronounce these guys guilty (or innocent) until it all plays out.

[nashville_brook]

22. no links -- i'll help -- it's a GANG RAPE allegation (multiple samples)

multiple samples of semen from genetically-similar men. the world doesn't work like it does on CSI (fill in the city).

[Buzz Clik]

29. Not CSI, but you are not correct.

Sorting out multiple DNA sources is quite possible, not unlike sifting through a scene with multiple sources of fingerprints. Keep in mind, the results were not "inconclusive" they came back with no matches.

[Finder]

32. The defense(and media) said "no match" not the report. n/t

[ugarte]

23. Without going to anyone's guilt or innocence, you're right about the media

They love these cases and can't wait to turn this into another OJ Simpson circus.

[endarkenment]

14. me too. nt.

[tatertop]

26. Thank you for infusing some sanity into this

[nashville_brook]

30. check this out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x957110

[omega minimo]

33. Can't ........must .........not .................look ....................

:yoiks: :scared:
:scared:
:hide:
:wtf:

[mongo]

34. I hear that!

I stayed out of that fight, for the most part.

The one thing that I can't believe in all this is the willingness of a few to use a DEFENSE ATTORNY's statement as some sort of proof that no crime was committed.

I'm glad they have finaly made some indictments. My only hope is that the length of time it took to make an arrest in this case is an sign that the prosecution has done their work well, and has a good case.

[Name removed]

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