In the USA, do men who work as nurses earn the right amount?

[Boojatta]

I am not entirely confident that this is the most appropriate forum on DU for this thread. Therefore I welcome and encourage (respectful) discussion of that question in addition to discussion of issues raised by the poll question and poll answer options.

[Debi]

1. They earn too little and female nurses earn too little as well

any of our 'human' service workers should be the highest paid in the country AND pay should be equitable.

[Boojatta]

3. I changed one answer option.

You deserve credit for giving me the idea in your post in this thread, but I didn't copy your words exactly, so I accept responsibility if the changed version is not entirely satisfactory to you.

[Debi]

4. awesome, thank you

Equity is important as well. If each person earned the same degrees and had the same experience and level of skill then gender should not matter in amount of pay. :hi:

[supernova]

2. I think a better question would be

are nurses in general paid what they are worth?

The answer is like most of us, not nearly so.

Is this a problem that you have noticed? Male nurses being paid significantly less because they are male?

Remember there are several different types of "nurse." There are LPNs, BSNs, RNs, MSN (I think). So be careful what level of expertise you are trying to compare.

edit: This is against the general background of hospitals needing to cut costs and sadly the first place they turn is slashing the nursing staff. Not surprisingly, those who are left want to be paid more because they take on more responsibilities.

[Boojatta]

5. I encourage you to create a better thread.

Is this a problem that you have noticed? Male nurses being paid significantly less because they are male?

No, I didn't think that I had even provided an answer option for that opinion. Did my choice to include an "other" option provoke you to ask that question?

[supernova]

7. No, not in your poll

:-)

But my particular bias is always to wonder what prompted the question in the first place.

edit: From what you have written it's rather easy to infer you don't think male nurses are paid well.

It's not easy for me to tell, from the options given, why you asked the question or indeed what exactly you are asking. :shrug:

[Warpy]

6. Plus, they've cut all staff

from food service staff to housekeeping to lab staff. Much of that work gets shoved onto the backs of nurses who are already staffed at dangerous levels.

50% of licensed nurses have quit due to brutal working conditions. Throwing money at the rest won't have much of an effect. We need to get the profit motive out of the industry and do something about the JOB.

There is generally no pay differential in nursing if one has a penis or if one has a vagina. The original poll was silly in that regard.

[supernova]

8. Totally agree with you Warpy

It's been proven that adequate and high Nursing staff levels are what drive really good patient care. The docs don't have it the mindset, nor see and interact with the patients often enough to tell when changes occur or to advocate for patients.

[Whisp]

24. women are supposed to be florence nightinggales.

don't ask for more for your personal obligations in the financial way. that is so Selfiish! just cover up for those high paying Doctors that the pharmaceuticals has as their balls and vags.

[K Gardner]

9. I'm still not quite sure what your major point/question is..

But I'll answer the same way I did on the other thread:

Male nurses do not earn more than female nurses in the same environment/same degree/same hours, etc. Nursing pay is not based on gender, period.

Neither male nurses or female nurses are paid enough, period, except maybe in certain hospitals with a strong union presence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2341133&mesg_id=2341705

[Boojatta]

10. If the following had been an answer option, would you have voted for it?

"No, they earn too little and women who work as nurses also earn too little. There's no good reason to say that it is gender bias that causes nurses to earn less if they are women."

It might need to be abbreviated in some way to squeeze into the space available for a poll answer option.

[K Gardner]

11. Yep, that's a better option IMHO ! Thanks for your interest..

in this topic !

[Boojatta]

12. Well, it was easy to make that option by cutting and pasting

from the answer options in the poll. Perhaps I have been too concerned about the risk of omitting possibilities merely because nobody might want to vote for them and not concerned enough about supplying options for every informed segment of the population of DU poll participants.

[Katherine Brengle]

13. Actually, if you think about it, it's likely that ALL nurses are underpaid BECAUSE the vast

majority are women. Therefore the discrimination is against a profession dominated by women. Therefore all nurses face this discrimination, even if they are men.

[Boojatta]

14. I see a possibility that the occupation is underpaid.

However, I doubt that I can, simply by thinking about it, confirm that it is likely that the occupation is underpaid.

[Katherine Brengle]

15. What are you on about?

[Boojatta]

16. Anyone who has concerns (or questions or comments) about

any of the content of this thread is encouraged to express such concerns (or questions or comments) by posting a message in this thread.

[Katherine Brengle]

17. I don't understand the point of any of your threads in this forum.

I really don't.

[noamnety]

18. Neither do I.

I read them, I figure there's some background agenda. I'm not interesting in playing the little game of being goaded into asking what it is. Personally, when people are toying around hinting that "I have a purpose but I won't tell you what it is unless you humor me by playing on my terms," I view that as being manipulative. If a person has a point here I wish they'd either just state it, or quit wasting our time.

[Boojatta]

19. How many people on DU...

toy around hinting that "I have a purpose but I won't tell you what it is unless you humor me by playing on my terms"?

I am aware of zero such people on DU, although I admit that I might simply not be noticing some such people. From what words do you extract the conclusion that such hinting is real and not merely your imagination?

[Boojatta]

20. I conclude that you don't understand the point of this thread.

If you understood the point of this thread, then would you know that this thread does at least one of the following?

1. Propose a change to some law.
2. Propose a way to get the law changed.

If this thread did one of those things, then would it have a point, or might it nevertheless have no point?

Is there anything besides the two items listed above that a thread could do that would be enough to give the thread a point? Could you provide some specific examples of things this thread could do that would give the thread a point?

[supernova]

22. No, that's not clear at all

from what you post.

You mention nothing at all about changing laws or political activism. In fact, your rhectoric seems to be aimed at a "what's the point, ladies, don't fight anything" POV.

I find it incredibly curious that you are not very forthcoming about your own story, your own reasons for being here, yet expect everybody else to explain themselves to you to the nth degree.

Either you're very, very confused, or very, very manipulative. Which is it? And don't give me another "consider this.... roundabout bit of shuck and jive.

I do not post here very much, but I do read it and do respect the women here very much. Wish I felt that you were the same.

[Boojatta]

25. "You mention nothing at all about changing laws or political activism."

Did you pay attention to the hypothesis that is the basis for the questions? The hypothesis is: "If you understood the point of this thread."

[supernova]

30. Did you pay attention to anything

besides the voices in your head?

Answering a qeustion with a question is not a solid communication tactic that fosters understanding.

[lukasahero]

21. Given that this is the "Women's Rights" forum,

I think many people could be forgiven for being confused as to the purpose of this poll re: men's wages being posted here.

[noamnety]

23. I was confused

as to why this person posts in the women's rights forum at all after making a nasty joke about women who are raped here (now deleted).

Perhaps I am just easily confused. ;)

[Boojatta]

27. I have no recollection of any such joke.

However, I suppose that you have arranged things so that you cannot be expected to provide any evidence, because there would be no evidence even if what you say were true.

[noamnety]

28. I asked the mods to delete the post

so I suppose you could say I "arranged things" so there wouldn't be any evidence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=229x8056#8076

[Boojatta]

29. You replied to a nasty joke about women who are raped

by writing "actually I shouldn't have responded to this thread at all"? Your post #10 in that thread indicates that it is a reply to post #9.

[Boojatta]

26. Okay, that's something that can be discussed.

Perhaps the following answer options provide for some possible connections to the topic of women's rights:

Yes, and women who work as nurses should earn that same amount.
No, they earn too little and women who work as nurses also earn too little.
No, they earn too much, partly because of discrimination based on gender.
No, they earn too much, entirely because of discrimination based on gender.

[Boojatta]

31. Kick to elicit more votes, comments, and questions.

[Disorientedx3]

32. pay inequity

Where I work, the guys tend to make a bit more than the women.. don't know if it's because they tend to be full time, and alot of women have been part time or on the "mommy track" at some point. Conventional wisdom also says that they negotiate more aggressively for a higher wage. We call it the penis factor.

[MaryCeleste]

33. There is a lot that goes into pay scales that its really hard to generalize well

Many jobs, esp union or union like jobs have well defined standards for the pay scales. Government, military, many union jobs, including teaching and nursing. Those tend to be gender neutral.

If a forty year old teacher took off 10 years to raise their kids, their pay would be not be commensurate with someone who did not and is their age. That is not gender disparity, its a choice, though societal pressure does come to play.

Once you get above a certain level, its all negotiation...in some industries one gender may be more successful than the other.

[iverglas]

34. oh look

That is not gender disparity, its a choice, though societal pressure does come to play.

It's Thomas Sowell come to tell us girls that it's all our fault.

If only we'd stop making choices that are so bad for ourselves and for society, we might be able to build up a pension fund, and then everybody would be better off. No children cluttering up the malls, and no women whining about their choices being, just bizarrely coincidentally, the ones that carry social and economic penalties.

Stoopid us.

[MaryCeleste]

35. Nonsense

Women, are choosing liberal arts majors in undergraduate and graduate school that do not pay as well as technical ones. Thats a choice. Teachers mostly have liberal arts degrees. To compare a MA in English to an MS Elec Engr and call for some sort of pay equity between them is silly. Its also why technical education (adv math, comp sci, physics...) is lagging in most schools. The salaries are tied to those of English teachers and professionals in the technical fields.

An article I need to go find again described research on women who were doctors, lawyers, etc who then got married and had families. A large share of them 10 years later were home with kids, not pursuing their profession. The reasons for that were the meat of it, societal pressure, choice etc. It was an interesting piece.

I'm clearly in favor of career choice for all genders. I also think that the outcome of those choices should not be counted as discrimination as some try to do.

[noamnety]

36. What's the pay gap

AFTER time off from work and career choices have been compensated for, so they are comparing apples to apples?

You sound a little like you haven't been exposed to that data.

[MaryCeleste]

37. I've never found credible sources for that

In areas with well defined pay scales and structures, I would think none. Any classroom teacher with the same education level and experience within a district gets paid the same.

Gets a little harder in smaller environments or when working out of ones field. If a Phd is working as a barista at Starbuck$ since they cannot get a job with their degrees in underwater basket weaving, how is that counted?

Personal experience here. I have a cousin who is an MD. Right now she is homeschooling her kids while growing flowers and making goat cheese for sale. They live a long way from anywhere in Colorado. She still "practices" by taking care of neighbors aliments, but is really out of the doctor business. How does her choices figure into those claiming pay disparities?

My point not that the disparities are a fiction, they are real. But those trying to use the macro numbers are ignoring that many people make choices to work for less for other reasons, and that choice should not be used as justification for discrimination. Such hyperbole undercuts the credibility of legitimate cases.

[noamnety]

38. Do you consider the govt. accounting office a credible source? (nt)

[MaryCeleste]

40. Depends on how the numbers are aggregated

For example, the CDC counts as a homicide when a someone shoots someone in self defense. Technically true though its homicide=murder to many.

If you have a link, I would like to see it.

My concern is that when people take the macro numbers which are at times deceptive, it weakens the entire argument.

[noamnety]

42. There are two ways to assess the pay gap

There is a pay gap that is the real life pay gap - which includes the results of "decisions" women make. This appears to be what you are focusing on. This gap accounts for women earning, in real dollars, less than 50% of what men make.

There is also the pay gap that remains after job experience, time away from work, career "choices" are accounted for. You seem to be in denial on this one. This gap shows that AFTER adjustments, women make about 79% of what men make.

After adjusting for "annual hours worked, time out of the labor force, work experience, highest education achieved, full-time versus part-time schedule, length of unemployment, tenure, occupation, industry, self-employment status, and numerous demographic variables," the pay gap that remained, based on gender alone (not habits attributed to gender like child-rearing), was 21%. Before the adjustments, the average pay for a man was $35,942 and for a woman, $16,554. (pg. 29)

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf

[iverglas]

39. who dunnit?

To compare a MA in English to an MS Elec Engr and call for some sort of pay equity between them is silly.

Yes, it kind of would be, wouldn't it? I'm not aware of it being done. I believe you might find some comparisons of MA in English to MA in English, and MS Elec Engr to MS Elec Engr, though.



Personal experience here. I have a cousin who is an MD. Right now she is homeschooling her kids while growing flowers and making goat cheese for sale. They live a long way from anywhere in Colorado. She still "practices" by taking care of neighbors aliments, but is really out of the doctor business. How does her choices figure into those claiming pay disparities?

Hmm. As an outlier, I'd say. But I guess she's the exception that demonstrates that all the other women who take time off work to rear children, commonly because (a) there is no decent affordable childcare available and (b) they are the lower-earning party in their partnership, and of course (c) tremendously powerful socialization and pressure from every agent of influence in their lives, and who lose seniority, opportunities for advancement and pay increases, leaving them permanently behind their male counterparts all the way to and after retirement, just aren't significant. One self-indulgent privileged woman counts for a few thousand of those others.


An article I need to go find again described research on women who were doctors, lawyers, etc who then got married and had families. A large share of them 10 years later were home with kids, not pursuing their profession. The reasons for that were the meat of it, societal pressure, choice etc. It was an interesting piece.

Yes. There's a good chance you'll find it was written by Thomas Sowell. Remember I mentioned him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

As for the “pay gap” between men and women, for example, Sowell’s book Civil Rights argues that most of said gap is based on marital status, not a “glass ceiling” discrimination. Earnings for men and women of the same basic description (education, jobs, hours worked, marital status) were essentially equal. That result would not be predicted under explanatory theories of “sexism”. <sez he>

Not the favoured authority of most "liberals". What's your feeling about his analysis of race and IQ?

[MaryCeleste]

41. Overstatement weakens the valid cases

Yes, it kind of would be, wouldn't it? I'm not aware of it being done.
Lately I have seen it done in the context of teachers are underpaid since they don't make what others do with comparable education. At times it has been attributed to teaching being a pink collar getto. I have also seen comparisons of men with master vice women with masters. There is rarely any recognition of the field the degrees are in. The majority of women have liberal arts degrees that almost never pay as well as technical degrees. A good friend of my daughter who has a masters in philosophy from an Ivy League school has a job as a secretary. My daughters degrees are in computer science. The income difference is almost 3 to 1.


There's a good chance you'll find it was written by Thomas Sowell. Remember I mentioned him
Actually it was by a feminist author, think it was in the NYT of the WP. The focal point of the article was if even those women (who could afford child care and were making a lot of money) felt the social pressure to stay home etc. It wasn't Sowell. I think its behind the archives now.

[Boojatta]

43. Kick to encourage additional DU members to vote, post comments, and post questions.

[Boojatta]

44. Kick

[Boojatta]

45. Kick to encourage DU members who have not yet voted in this poll to vote.

Also, to encourage DU members who have comments, but who haven't yet gotten around to posting them.

[Boojatta]

46. Kick to encourage additional comments, votes, or questions.