Women: Do you ever feel disrespected on DU?

[Nikia]

Sorry for the copy cat thread.
I was thinking about this at work today with the previously mentioned rape thread and a few lounge thread. For me, the answer is yes. I just think that it is sort of weird for that to happen on a liberal message board. On the otherhand, I suppose that is bound to happen on any large message board.
Am I being overly sensitive? Do other women feel it too?
Is there anything that we can do about this without sounding like we're advocating censorship or being whiny or bitchy? Isn't this the case too in real life?

[TexasSissy]

1. I haven't picked up any sense of disrespect here re my gender.

Any rude posts I've rec'd were from posters who were, or would have been, rude to anyone else, regardless of gender.

[tjdee]

2. No I don't feel it at all, but I know some others do.

I figure folks are just giving their opinions, like anything else here.

I say someone has 'balls'.
I don't think 'bitch' is for women only.

I am under 30--wonder if that plays a part in it?

[lukasahero]

11. Just be aware that you are propagating the sentiment that

balls = male = good
bitch = female = bad

Edited to correct ordering...

[Momgonepostal]

3. Never for my gender, a couple of times about other things

[MARALE]

4. I have once

But I usually think that it is ignorance of the other posters that have done it. I do less on this board than anywhere before. I am a very strong person that won't let other people put me in a place. Many people are uncomfortable with that, like my in-laws. They are of the generation where women knew their place. I think that everyone feels like they have a place chosen for them, one they didn't ask for at one time or another. I have seen it with my son as well. We need not to let people define us, we need to be ourselves.

there I am glad I am out of the closet.]

[patdem]

5. No, not here so much, but other forums have dissed me regarding

my rape when I was 11 and other such horrors in my life. This forum has ALWAYS been supportive. I think there are one or two people who are insensitive but that is not the consensus! I hope you find people here who are supportive of you! :hi:

[CitySky]

6. nope. not here.

now being a person of a certain religious faith does leave me out of the Circle of Snide sometimes, but it doesn't bug me. never anything bad vibes based on gender, and I DO get those IRL from time to time (esp. as a female lawyer).

[DURHAM D]

7. Yes.

Sometimes the guys use overly strong language when they are trying to make a point. I realize they might be passionate but foul words and framing it in male dominating verbage is offensive and causes me to realize how many of the folks who self-define as liberal or progressive have a strong bullying facet to their approach.

If I wanted to be bullied I would talk to Freepers.

I have also noticed that on the few occasions when misinformation is posted it is usually a guy putting it out there. Women, generally speaking, know better than to post/speak in half-truths - we will be crucified for being overly emotional.

How about that for stereotypic views ?

[LdyGuique]

8. No -- I've not felt any gender bias

It is difficult to participate in an extremely opionated forum at times as not all of us agree with each other on a wide range of issues. Some are cruder and ruder in their expression of opinion(s) than others. Labels get flung around rather freely, and as time goes on, many labels prove to be rather like any other form of shallow thinking: lacking in depth.

I think that those who are Christian and/or military have to have very thick skins or really well-developed senses of humor.

[mike_c]

9. if you don't mind a male chiming in....

The situation seems to be generally better now that it appeared to me a couple of years ago, when misogynistic terms and threads about the physical attributes of female politicians and celebrities were common, but even I have trouble with occasional postings still. From my perspective, *most* of the time the problem lies in simple insensitivity to common expressions that are essentially misogynist, even if the user did not intend them that way-- "bitch slap" is a common one. As I said-- it was worse a few years ago until a number of women raised the issue and made it clear that they didn't appreciate such things, even if meant as humor.

I have often been embarrassed by the implicit insensitivity and out-right misogyny that is sometimes displayed on DU. I think it's important to call people on it-- they'll probably never learn that it's offensive unless someone tells them.

[lukasahero]

12. Personally, I appreciate a male chiming in

And thank you for your last sentence. I think (and I am loathe to suggest that the onus is on you and other males but...) men especially have to be the ones calling people on it. I say this because if it's only women doing the calling out, it's often dismissed as self-serving and "whining".

[cally]

13. I agree that DU has improved

I think the 'bitch' flamewars informed many folks here. At the time, I was dismayed at all the misogyny on DU but since then the tone has changed.

I find the rape threads the most troubling. Too many men, sometimes women, still don't get it. The woman is the victim.

[Scout]

10. yes

and it doesn't seem to matter in which way our observations are presented; someone will call you a whiny bitch (or worse) who is trying to censor their speech. Some posters will support you and some won't.

So just put on your flame-retardent suit, obey the DU rules, and post away.

[Orangepeel]

14. sometimes, a little.

what I find a bit disrepectful is the defensiveness that often arises when behaviors are challenged. That is, I don't think it is necessarily disrepectful when posters use sexist language. Usually it is out of ignorance. But, when others point out that the language is sexist, some posters get very defensive and attack the person who pointed it out.

For example, one can disagree that it reinforces negative steretypes to equate courage with "balls" (what's wrong with "guts" or "spine" if a body part must be used?). But one should recognize that others feel this way and be respectful of that fact.

[SarahB]

15. When people are disrespectful in regards to rape or choice.

That pisses me off.

When people objectify a woman and her sexuality, that bugs me. Overall though, sexuality itself can be a fun and healthy topic of discussion, but we must all respect individual boundaries and not step over the line (and remember that line is different for different people and that that's ok).

[baba]

16. Sexist comments.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there have been some comments made that I found sexist. They usually had to do with a woman's appearance.

[chicaloca]

17. I don't think it's so much _being_ a woman that earns one disrespect here

But rather standing up for women's rights beyond abortion that will get a person disrespected. I told another poster this, but I've pretty much checked out of DU because of people's attitudes here toward rape and assault. (Meaning I used to post a lot, and hardly do anymore.) I would like for the rape apologists on this board to just live in my shoes for a day, just to see how their attitudes affect me and people like me. I would guess that a lot of other assault survivors have been run out of DU for daring to speak up for people -- both men and women -- who've been raped or assaulted, but it's one of those things that's too painful to even post about, so rather than write a message to an admin or moderator, or post something, they just leave. That was what I did for about a year, and sadly, nothing had changed when I finally came back. Before the election, I was seriously considering not voting or voting for the Green Party because of attitudes here toward women. While I ultimately still cast a vote for Kerry, I find it really interesting that the Dems lost ground among women this election cycle -- I really hope some of our so-called liberal men wake up and think about this stuff, because they have a lot to lose from treating women like crap, too.

And another thing I love that guys here do to women who post about rape -- they accuse us of getting "too emotional" or taking it too personally. Um, it's rape. Of course it's a personal, emotional issue. Don't blame me because society's taught you that emotion = bad and evil, and being completely dispassionate = good. This doesn't only happen in rape threads, of course. The consensus of a lot of the anti-woman posters around here seems to be that the best argument against an angry woman (because, of course, women aren't supposed to be angry) is to say, "oh, gee, somebody sounds a wee bit defensive." Well, you're attacking me for standing up for those of us who have a clitoris. Doesn't it make a wee bit of sense that I'd be defensive?

Oh, oh oh! I almost forgot one of my favorites! I reeeeeeeally love those body image threads where any woman who critizes society's harsh beauty standards for women gets accused of being ugly. (You know, the "you're only pissed about this because you're not good-looking" replies.) I've gotten that one a few times...I'm thinking that the next time some guy does that to me, I'll send him a picture of myself, and then he can sit and stew about how that's one pretty girl who will _never_ shag him. (And doesn't using ugliness as an insult prove that women's looks are held against them, which is exactly what the "you're ugly" crowd says _isn't_ the case?)

Grrrr. Thanks for starting this thread, Nikia. I think we need to get this stuff out in the open if DU is ever going to be a place that truly respects and values all of its posters.

[lukasahero]

18. Wow - good rant!

Summed up a lot of my feelings on all the issues that piss me off! :-) Thanks. And well said.

(PS - I try to remind myself daily that DU is not representative of the Democratic Party - by a long shot. Not sure it helps all that much but it's my way of not giving up hope. ;-)

[_TJ_]

19. Please keep posting chicaloca!

We need good guys like you to help dissapate all the ignorance
around here :)

[chicaloca]

20. sorry, but...

I'm a girl. But if it makes you feel any better, I do know a few guys who would agree with me on all those points. :)

On edit: You know what's really weird? At first I didn't want to respond to your post, because I thought that people here might take my opinions more seriously if they thought I was a guy. Strange, because I just said that I don't think being a woman will get one disrespected here. Huh. I have to go think about this one now.

[_TJ_]

21. hey I thought you were a girl all along

doesn't chicaloca mean crazygirl or something similar in Spanish?

i only used the word 'guy' colloquially. I take peoples
opinions just as seriously whatever their gender. I'd hardly be
posting in womens rights if I didn't :)

[chicaloca]

23. *smacks self on head*

Ok, I get it! :P And yeah, my screen name means "crazy girl." But at any rate, I'm pumped to see that there are people like you here who want to make a change. After all, if even DU is full of neanderthals, what does that say about the rest of the world, where you can't ban Republicans?

[the Princess]

22. YES

Especially in the lounge where name calling of women seems to be the norm and making stupid sexists remarks is seen as funny.

I mean really grow up already.

[SarahB]

24. Today, yes. Very much so.

Started a thread today on that very fact. Unfortunately, my discomfort with being treated like a f*cking object last night in a couple other threads was perceived as my own vanity. All I was trying to say is if someone wants to say I'm cute- fine, I'll say "thank you", but don't say I'm "sexy" or tell me that you want to have sex with me. It's dehumanizing. My sexuality and to whom I wish to share that facet of myself with is my own personal business.

[RedFireDiamonds]

25. Not so much for the woman thing but...

More for the fact that I'm 17. Which I get everywhere, in real life and on message boards. My favorite is the "you can't even vote yet so why should you even care and why should we even listen to what you're saying" I get that one a lot. It's annoying.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. The one thing I'm annoyed with is the constant

refrain (usually by men who have non-existent social lives) that woman want to be treated badly and that nice guys are always rejected.

That is so wrong on so many levels, and it seems I have to explain the facts at least once a week

[Hello_Kitty]

27. Self proclaimed "nice guys"

Are usually anything but. Genuinely nice people just go through life being nice, don't have to announce how 'nice' they are at every turn, and don't expect to be rewarded for it with sex.

Those dorks get no sympathy from me. The minute I hear the familiar strains of "I'm a nice guy so I get no respect" I let him know what whiny, passive-agressive jerk I think he is.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Either that or seriously boring

Even (or rather especially) at my age, I run into men who are "nice" in the sense that they probably would never be abusive, but they have never had a thought that the mass media didn't put there and their comfort zone is limited to activities that engaged in before the age of 18.

[SarahB]

31. Yes!

Excellent post. There's also this idea of men thinking they're "nice" when it's merely they don't take the risks to assert themselves out of a fear of rejection. It's a lot easier to suppress yourself under the guise of "nice" than it is to take a risk in life. They shouldn't confuse the two.

[Chovexani]

29. Lately, yes

The pharmacist issue has brought some ugly behavior up to the surface. There has been a lot of patronizing talk on some of these threads, by the usual suspects.

It's the patronizing that drives me crazier than anything else, honestly. I hate when DU women get upset about something, you get these men saying it's "all in our head" or we're "making mountains out of molehills" etc. The talking down, pat on the head type of stuff drives me nuts. It goes on here all the time but it's been especially bad in the pharmacist threads. :argh:

[Hello_Kitty]

30. Probably because they can still get Viagra n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

32. I would argue that a lot of those comments on that thread

are from stealth disruptors. If you look at similar posts from a year-or two years-ago, the misogynist posts are from tombstoned members. Fundamnetal respect for human rights and women's rights is the bedrock of the Democratic Party and Progressive movement. Any man that argues to the contrary shouldn't be on this board.

I think the refusal of a pharmacist to dispense birth control pills can now be extended to eithnic and religious groups that they may not like. What ever happened to the civil rights amendment?

[catzies]

33. I only feel disrespected when my rights become bargaining chips

I was seriously annoyed at all the proposal to gut the Democratic Party's position on choice after the loss in November.

My rights are not for sale.