For lack of a better term... "kid hating"

[trotsky]

I have always been surprised whenever a thread pops up on DU about the behavior of children in public, how many DUers launch into a tirade about "spoiled nasty brats" and how they ALWAYS seem to know A) a couple who lets their kids rule the roost - which "proves" their point, and B) exactly what parents need to do to get their kids to behave like angels 100% of the time.

Oh and did I mention the ones who know the most about child-rearing don't have any of their own? Don't you dare point that out to them, however. They just know, alright?

But the thing is, I speak from experience here - long before I had kids, I thought I knew everything about raising them. We'd be in a restaurant and a baby would scream and I'd think, "GEEZ, why don't you get a babysitter?" Or someone's kids were running around in the grocery store and I'd think, "Man, if those were my kids I'd jerk a knot in their tails and they'd behave!"

Well, it's one of those "walk a mile in my shoes" deals. Now that I have kids - CHALLENGING kids - I utterly and completely understand that it's not that simple. Never is. Kids are not like robots that will always respond predictably. They have moods and emotions and "bad days" just like adults. Only they lack the ability to deal with them. KEY DIFFERENCE.

And you know, when you've been dealing with a difficult baby for months and all you want is a decent meal where YOU don't have to clean up but you just can't afford a sitter (or none are available), sorry, but you just HAVE to go to a restaurant and yes, sometimes BABIES CRY.

Yes, we tried to go to "appropriate" restaurants. Applebee's, Ground Round, whatever. And yes, some parents make bad restaurant decisions. Hell, SOME parents make all-around bad decisions.

But goddammit you kid-haters, part of being in society is encountering other people and SOMETIMES they're going to annoy you! Since when did YOU get to decide who gets to go out in public and who doesn't?

Argh. OK, rant over, even though I could go ON and ON about this.

[SW FL Dem]

1. I totally agree

My son is now a teenager, but I remember walking into a restaurant with him as an infant or toddler and getting the annoying stares. My son was always well-behaved, stayed in his chair and quietly colored or talked to us. He's an only so we took him everywhere, as a result, he learned how to behave in public and is now one of the most polite young men around. I always get compliments on his manners.

[trotsky]

2. My wife was an only child, too.

Same thing - her parents took her out to grown-up restaurants, and she quickly learned to behave like a grown-up.

I was fairly well-behaved too, though I am the oldest of three and my brother and I would fight almost constantly. But typically, given the opportunity, I was more than content to color or read.

But our kids - they're SOOOO different than us. They don't like to play alone. They can't sit still for long. And you know what? I've learned that they just ARE that way. When you see the same kind of behaviors since infancy, you just know that a lot of your personality is shaped at birth.

I have a college degree, but I didn't learn nearly as much in those 4 years as I did in 1 year of parenting.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

5. Me too.

I completely agree with the original poster. I'm so tired of reading the child-hating threads as well. I guess many adults who don't have kids forget what it was like to be a child.

[blondeatlast]

18. I often wonder if they were allowed to BE children.

I may despise them, but it makes me wonder. I see kids who are expected to just not get in the way, or are so busy with afterschool activities there's no time for fun.

I suspect there's a degree of resentment in many cases of it. It doesn't excuse it, but I wonder about it.

[Chalco]

3. People without kids are the worst offenders.

We socialize with two couples who don't have kids. They are unbelievably nasty when it comes to their observations about children. I just listen because it reminds me who they are and what their limitations are as humans.

We have an only child who is well behaved so they never complain about here. But, when we go places with them and a kid is just being a kid they go on adnauseum about what lousy parents the people are, what they would do, etc.

Lastly these people always seem to have pets that they dote on as if they were children. But the thought of having a real child makes them want to puke.

[rbnyc]

4. I agree!

And one really dangerous thing about this is that parents are shamed into abusing their kids. People send such a strong message that kids need to be perfectly behaved in public, that when kids start to act out in the store, subway, restaurant, parents become panicked and often do things I think they would never do at home (arm-tugging, saying "shut-up", pushing, dragging, hitting, etc.)

I am not excusing parents for abusive behavior. It's up to us to do the right thing despite the stresses coming at us from every front.

But I do think that the social intolerance for children who make any noise, cry, or scream, or laugh, or skip or dance or play or fuss in public, fills parents with shame and hinders good judgment.

[trotsky]

6. Great point, rbnyc. n/t

[blondeatlast]

8. So true. nt

[amandae]

7. You're the best parent ever, before you have children

I can't stand it when confronted with these behaviors from childless couples. I usually just ignore the looks when I'm out with my kids.

[blondeatlast]

9. "____ don't belong in restaurants or on airplanes."

If I said that about gays/African-Americans/WASPs (like me)/Muslims, ad infinitum, on this board, I'd be outta here faster than I can type this message--even with my multitudinous friends on the board. And rightfully so.

My kid doesn't choose to be 8, either, so why do I have to put up with the hatred and discrimination about him?

But it really galls me about DU is how we can let absolute HATRED of children stand, with little interference and no coverage in the rules.

I'd post in AtA, but I know that would mean 25 threads attacking, and 50 supporting, me, and I don't want to trouble the Admins about this.

But maybe I should. Anyone willing to take it up with Administration with me? I see it as out and out discrimination, or am I too sensitive?

[gollygee]

19. I agree 100%

Exactly how I feel. It's age discrimination, pure and simple.

[cally]

20. Skinner has been very supportive of parents

and will take action against the kid-bashing threads. Why don't you send a private email to him.

[wildeyed]

10. I remember, soon after I had my first child,

I walked into a coffee shop with her in my arms and received venomous glares form nearly everyone there. And she hadn't made a peep. And she was really, really cute.

Also, people don't always understand what is going on with your kid. I remember once, my husband was out of town, my daughter was sick and running a high temperature and we were out of food. I have no relatives in town, so I had to go shop for myself. So my daughter is sitting in the cart and whining, I am trying to placate her and feeling like the worst mother for even having her out and this old guy is staring at me and practically growling. I can hear what is going through his head, 'that woman needs to get it together and give that whiny brat a good smack. Horrible permissive parents.' But she was running 103 degrees, you know?

Since our second, we hardly go out anymore. We cook at home, and invite other people with kids over. Kids can run wild, adults can socialize and no nasty looks. Plus, since the second, we have less money, so staying in works for the budget, too.

[blondeatlast]

13. I'm married to a man with brown skin, and I'll tell you, those looks

are the same ones he gets. It's the same hatred from a different group. EXACTLY the same.

The cold stares, the muttering, etc. I know it all too well from two directions.

We shouldn't have to be forced to stay "with our own kind" because it makes others uncomfortable, wildeyed. If we prefer to, that's another issue altogether.

I know what I call that. Deep in our hearts, even when we don't wanna say it, we all do.

Just think of it this way--how would DU react if someone posted "Muslims shouldn't be allowed on airplanes"?

[wildeyed]

16. I hear what you are saying.

Happily I missed the thread in GD in question. I will toddle over and find it in a few.

We stay in now more for convenience and lack of funds than anything. I am fairly thick skinned, I must be to post here on a regular basis, so when people give me nasty looks, I just stare back at them coldly. I perfected the cold hard stare while I was breastfeeding and find it comes in handy often.

Speaking of which, if you want to have some big fun, start a thread about breastfeeding in public in GD.

[blondeatlast]

11. Regarding pot #9: May God have mercy on me--

I posted about this in AtA.

I'm sick of the unabashed hatred of children by some on this board.

[trotsky]

12. Kudos to you.

About time someone spoke up - way to go! Hopefully this will play out positively.

On edit: You may want to edit the link in your AtA post - right now it just points to the GD forum, not a particular thread.

[blondeatlast]

14. Embarassing plea for some support! I know it'll get VERY ugly,

I've seen it on DU MANY times.

[blondeatlast]

15. Thanks--I fixed it. nt

[SoCalDem]

17. I think it's because we are "sold on perfection" as a society.

Every dining experience should be perfect.. Every child should behave.. Every car should always start.. Every job should be perfect..

When things are "different", people freak out..

Our 3 little monsters sons (all within 4 1/2 years) "usually" behaved, but when they did not, we just took them home and didn't go out for a long time.. Of course we were always pretty broke, so we ate at home mostly. We never were movie people anyway and we did not go to church, so "populated places" were not on our menu anyway.

As much as I understand that kids misbehave and get cranky, I must admit that on the rare occasions when we DO go to a movie, even I get annoyed when a group sits behind us, and their 3 yr old kicks my chair and whines during the movie.. :) It's really not the child's fault.. parents know their kids' limits, and should take care to not over-extend them:)

I have had to fly with babies and it's like traveling with a ticking time-bomb.. you never know when it will blow.. I was always lucky to find some kind soul who would help me out, but luckily for us it never was too awful..

Basically it all boils down to intolerance and the ME ME ME syndrome :)

[cally]

21. Well my kids did misbehave on occasion

They were kids. Yes, I left the restaurant when they did but sometimes I had to sit there with a crying kid while I waited to pay the bill. It happens. I rarely took my kids to anything but 'family' restaurants but even there we got dirty looks. The only times we took the kids was when ignorant family members (in-laws) planned an event at some upscale restaurant. I would call and ask for a different restaurant and then would be told what a bad parent I was.

I also took play dough to the restaurants when they were toddlers. That kept them busy and quiet. I made sure to clean it up completely before leaving.

When my kids were around 9 or 10, we started getting the compliments about how well behaved they are in restaurants. It takes experience and effort to train your kids. They can't be kept away until adulthood and they expected to magically act mature and responsibly.

[wildeyed]

22. Playdoh, crayons, anything to keep them busy.

I don't always clean up after them, but I do tip big.

My favorite restaurant experience (shouldn't even post it here, we are trying to make a case about why our kids should be allowed in public), my daughter was newly potty trained, or should I say almost potty trained. She peed a gallon sitting right there in the restaurant. I guess she forgot she wasn't wearing a diaper. I was completely mortified and so glad we were at the outside courtyard. And our server was incredibly nice about it.

So another good point, for every horrible intolerant person, there is one who is sweet, understanding and even helpful.

[SoCalDem]

23. No biggie.. Our president puked in the lap of Japan's prime minister

:)