Liability Question Re: pets

[Fire1]

Here's the problem. I am the proud owner of three dogs. One dog is a stray found at a gas station, one shelter and one pure bred. The stray is a female the other two males. Never had a problem with mating. We've been dilifgent about keeping them apart until which time funds are more readily available to have her spayed. In our subdivision there is an ordinance requiring all residence to have their animals under full control at all times. No fences are allowed without a special permit from the city/township. Most residence, such as myself, have opted for an electrical fence. Two weeks ago, a new dog owner (who has no fence electrical or otherwise) relied on a chain to restrain her male Husky, but to no avail. The dog ran into my yard and mated with my female. This dog has been seen roaming the subdivision many times over the last year. I have called animal control and they can never catch it. It was not until recently that I found the owner who lives down the street. The total cost for my dog's surgical procedure came to a whopping $587.23. $175.00 of this total includes yearly maintenance shots, exams and screenings that the Vet insisted had to be done before they would proceed with the surgery and I agreed that I would pay this portion of the total bill. My neighbor seems to think that I should also pay part of the $411.60 remaining portion of the bill. I don't see it that way b/c I would be paying for my responsibility and hers while she is totally liable for the actions of her animal. What do you think?

[elleng]

1. So your electrical fence didn't keep her dog out of your yard?

I'm thinking.

:think:

[Fire1]

3. It only works for animals inside the perimeter that are wearing

the connecting collar.

[elleng]

6. GOT IT!

.

[meow2u3]

17. Electric "invisible fences" do not keep outside dogs from getting in your yard

http://www.invisiblefence.com/product_solutions/products/product_FAQs/outdoor.asp

2. Will the Invisible Fence system keep other dogs off of my property?
The Invisible Fence system is designed to keep your dog contained on your property. It is not designed to keep other dogs, or people, off of your property.

Contact your local Invisible Fence professional for more information. Click here to find your local Invisible Fence professional.

[dropkickpa]

2. Honestly

If you don't have your animals fixed, expect to pay the consequences. Most animal shelters that have clinics have very affordable rates for spay/neuter. Any ol' stray dog can wander in and have his jollies with your girl.

Your story seems a little muddled. First you say the person moved in just 2 weeks ago, then you say the dog has been seen many times over the last year. Which is it?

[Fire1]

4. I said two weeks ago a neighbor RELIED ON A CHAIN TO

RESTRAIN HER DOG. I did not say she moved in two weeks ago. Muddled??? I think the owner is liable.

[Fire1]

5. I said two weeks ago a neighbor RELIED ON A CHAIN TO

RESTRAIN HER DOG. I did not say she moved in two weeks ago. Muddled??? I think the owner is liable.

[elleng]

7. Didn't you see this?

'dilifgent about keeping them apart until which time funds are more readily available to have her spayed.'

[Coyote_Bandit]

8. My opinion

First, you knew that it was possible for another dog to enter your yard and you left your unspayed and apparently in heat dog in that yard unattended. That is asking for trouble.

Second, you are responsible for your animal. If there is a law that requires that the dog be spayed/neutered then you are by definition in violation of that statute. The law cares about compliance not good intentions. If there is such a law and you are in violation then you should be aware that your neighbor just might succusfully argue in court that you should be fully responsible for the expenses incurred.

Third, there are low cost spay/neuter clinics in most communities. Not having the money is a convenient excuse. And a poor one. Your neighbor just might successfully argue that their financial responsibility should be limited to the fees charged by those low cost clinics.

I think you should own your share of the responsibility for what happened and you should consider yourself lucky that your neighbors are not efusing to pay more than the $30 spay/neuter fee charged by the local SPCA.

[Fire1]

10. The residents in this subdivision don't worry about stray

animals because of the township ordinance that all animals must be under the owner's control. There is no law or ordinance requiring dogs to be spayed. If I were a breeder, I would not want my female spayed for obvious reasons. If the neighbor's dog had atacked or bitten someone or attacked my dog, I feel the liability would be the same, if not to a greater degree.

[Coyote_Bandit]

13. So

It would appear that you just want to defend and justify your poor choices.

Facts are:
(1) you knew another dog could enter your yard and
(2) you left your unattended, unspayed, in heat dog in your yard
(3) she was impregnated by a dog that you were aware had recently been roaming the neighborhood and
(4) now you want to place the financial responsibility on somebody else even though you could have done any number of things to prevent this outcome.

What the fuck did you expect? Get fricking real and own your responsibility. Your contribution to the end result denonstrated a complete lack of forethought.

[Fire1]

15. Duly noted.

[CC]

9. Around here we have a leash

law but the owner of any female dog that is in heat is completely responsible for keeping her away from any males. (Unless you want puppies.) So the owner of the female could not hold the male's owner liable for any cost associated with breeding. The female's owner can be held liable and fined for any nuisance complaints caused by males congregating around her. Before pushing things any further you may want to check into your local laws and ordinances. Now that you know who owns the male dog you can direct those that enforce leash laws to them when their dog is running loose.

[Fire1]

11. I did file a police report and unbeknownst to me the

officer said I should contact them if a stray animal is in the area. The officer took the report and had a visit with my neighbor to reinforce the township ordinance.

[CC]

12. At least they are doing something then though

that doesn't help you right now. Hope your neighbor has learned her lesson. Poor dog could be hit by a car if out running loose.

[Fire1]

14. Exactly. We have a neighbor across the street who finally

learned and invested in an electronic fence after neighbors started complaining that her dog was pooping on everybody's lawn.

[roody]

16. Was the bill for spay and abortion? I hope so.

Lo barato sale caro. The cheap thing ends up expensive. I'm glad she is spayed now.

[northernlights]

18. apparently I'm in the minority here

but unless the stray female that you kindly took in has been unspayed for a ridiculously long period of time, then I think the owner of the husky should ante up the abortion portion of the bill. They are responsible for restraining their dog and they know that the chain does not contain him. Furthermore, they've had their dog for a year and have not neutered him. NEW DOG OWNERS SHOULD NOT HAVE INTACT MALES. That, to me, is at least as irresponsible as leaving a female unspayed, if not moreso since oftentimes intact males are more aggressive.

If the husky had been roaming around and bitten somebody, they'd be liable. If the husky had attacked and injured one of your dogs, I suspect the husky owner would be liable.

Also, I don't know what SPCA charges only $30 for spaying, but I do know from having recently pulled a stray from death row in Georgia that prices vary wildly around the country.

There's no way you could get a spaying that cheap where I live. In fact, the only low cost service available locally is rabies shots through the town and through the local university. You can't even get your dog in and out of a vet here for less than $300 in my experience. Add the surgery on top of that.

Next time you see their husky roaming around loose, consider luring him into your garage with some food, crate him up and take him to the furthest shelter you have time to drive to. Let them find him and pay to get him back. Then maybe they'll get the message.

[Fire1]

20. Thank you. I'm in the minority on this issue too, apparently.

Yours is a great idea. After all of this filing a police report, the police talking to her and my trying to reason with her, and she fails to protect her animal I can only assume she really doesn't want the dog anyway.

[Fire1]

22. Sorry about the misspelling in the OP. In my haste did not

spell check. Should be 'resiDENTS.' My bad.

[Why Syzygy]

19. Is there a homeowner's association

to act as mediator?

[Fire1]

21. Yes, but the contact person is out of town. I'm anxiously

awaiting her return.

[GardeningGal]

23. I think the neighbor should pay also.

If her dog had been neutered it wouldn't have been a problem either.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

24. I don't understand why anybody would leave a bitch in heat outside unattended

I'd say it's your bill.

[Fire1]

26. It's my property. If I had her outside on three legs and a tutu, it

is my property. If her dog came into my yard and dug up my bushes or caused any other type of damage, she would be just as liable.

[MiniMe]

42. Dogs don't respect property lines

Especially when they are driven by hormones. I'm in a lab rescue and I really strongly believe that all pets should be spayed neutered. Leaving a female who is in heat outside unsupervised is not responsible behavior. I understand your point about all dogs being required to be under the owners control at all times, but this was obviously not happening. I don't know how big the township is, but the phermone scent travels for a long way, so it would be possible for another dog outside your township to hone in on the scent.

I think you should split the spay with the other husky's owner. You don't mention how long you had the female, but the spay most likely would have been much cheaper if you had it done when the dog wasn't in heat.

btw, I think that the husky should be neutered, your males should be too. Sorry, it is the rescue person in me talking now.

[pipi_k]

97. I agree with

Post #24

OK, it's your property


But it's your dog and you know she's unspayed. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that she could be seen, at the very least, as an "attractive nuisance".

Look at it from another perspective...if one of your neighbors had a backyard swimming pool and didn't take any measures to ensure that it wouldn't attract animals and children even though they know it might attract such attention, wouldn't you be just a tad upset with them?

Yeah, there's no law against tying your animal out in your own yard, but if said animal is an unspayed female who might attract male dogs, then I think that's just plain irresponsible.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. Rereading this, it sounds like none of your dogs are fixed

Totally irresponsible.

[Fire1]

27. Then our entire subdivision is irresponsible.

[Coyote_Bandit]

29. "Everybody else does it"

isn't a reason that justifies anything. It's just a lazy cop out excuse.

You should be able to defend your own choices.

[Fire1]

31. Yes, everyone else owns up to their responsibility by

maintaining control and restraining their 'property,' including their animals. Why is this neighbor allowed a pass? Because my female was in heat? That's a bullshit excuse for being irresponsible in any form (laziness or more likely just plain cheap.)

[Coyote_Bandit]

37. Whether ytou acted responsibly

is an issue that can be determined without consideration of whether or not someone else acted appropriately. Nobody else's conduct can excuse your own. And your conduct was irresponsible regardless of whether your dog was impregnated.

But all you want to do is point fingers at somebody else. You refuse to own your own mistakes. Grow up.

[Fire1]

38. Thank you for your sincere and heartfelt input. We'll see what the

judge thinks. Thank God for legal recourse.

[Coyote_Bandit]

39. I could care less what a judge thinks

It is totally irrelevant to whether or not you acted appropriately.

There are lots of things that are legal and yet irresponsible and unethical.

Your behavior was irresponsible - even if the verdict should happen to be completely in your favor.

[Fire1]

40. Should it come down from a judge to be in my favor, it will

certainly have more validity than your opinion.

[Coyote_Bandit]

41. And

you think I give a damn? Once again, IMHO, you have demonstrated a remarkable lack of forethought and common sense. And a continued refusal to acknowledge that your own lack of responsibility contributed to the pregnancy.

Our justice system is flawed - and the statutes enacted by our legislators are not measures of morality (though the fundies would have you believe that very thing). And yet you want to hide behind a court judgment that has not yet been rendered. Court verdicts have little to do with determining whether behavior was responsible and appropriate.

It has been a very long time since I have witnessed such overt, blatant and prolonged denial of responsibility. Welcome to my ignore list. Somehow I doubt I'll miss the drywall.

[Fire1]

45. Oh, Boo fuckin hoo. Get lost.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

46. Your female was in heat, outside, unattended

That's extremely irresponsible.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

44. That doesn't make it right

Having unfixed animals is fucking irresponsible, whether or not "everyone else" does it.

What a lameass excuse.

[Fire1]

28. Just filed a civil suit that will start with mediation. I think I've got

a case. The leash law ordinance speaks for itself and the testimony from the vet will seal it. What gets to me is how some folks say my dog should be fixed and I'm irresponsible but let's not consider her dog being neutered and totally off it's leash to do whatever it pleases. Kind of one sided if you ask me.

[CC]

30. Let us know how

it goes. I would like to know. I can see both sides and would think a 50/50 split on the surgery to get rid of any unwanted pups would be fair. Now the shots, spaying etc. I would say is on the owner since that would be normal proper care of the pet on the owners part. Course it would be great if the judge ordered the male dog neutered and contained too with threat of fines if it is not done.
CC- owned by 4 females and 1 male dog, 5 male cats, 5 ferrets and two birds all spayed & neutered.
(Except the birds who are contained.)

[Fire1]

Thanks CC. That's the way I see it, also. Noone should be

given a pass. In this instance I was the responsible owner and my female being in heat is no excuse for not having control of one's property (dog, in this case.)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

47. Please, explain to me how you were the "responsible" owner

Because I'm not seeing it.

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[WillYourVoteBCounted]

33. an unspayed in heat dog is an attractive nuisance

Male dogs will do anything to get to an available in heat female.
They can detect the scent a long distance away.

If it were not this dog, it would be another male dog.

Thats what happens when you have a female unspayed dog outside and not behind a
physical fence.

[Fire1]

34. I also own two males. Never had a problem. Strange, eh?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

35. no, since males are not "attractive nuisances" and do not attract other dogs from miles around

if you have a female, spay her.

It is irresponsible to have an unspayed female.

There's too many unwanted puppies.

It is inevitable that a female dog kept outside where other dogs
can get to her - will get mated with.

That one female will be scented by all male dogs for miles.

Spay.

And if you have a male neuter.

But in real life, it is the female who gets pregnant.

[Fire1]

36. She is spayed now but my males are not neutered. My

three are basically house dogs (female separated when in heat) but controlled by an electric fence as are all dogs (except one) in this subdivision. Never seem to have problems until a novice decides they want a 'pet' and have no clue as to the cost and responsibilities that are involved. Of course, she won't neuter HER dog because she wants to breed, if it lives that long. I feel bad for the dog. There's a lot of road kill out here.

[MiniMe]

43. I have taken in females in heat to foster

And my neutered boys were still interested. When the girls went out in my fenced backyard, I still watched them like a hawk, and I have a 6 foot fence. I stayed out there with them to make sure nothing nappened. There is nothing to keep the male out of your yard other than a town ordinance, dogs don't pay attention to those. If your female was in heat, you should have been out there with her while she was in heat. I think that the male should have been neutered, and I think that your boys should be neutered too. That is the rescue person in me talking. There is no reason to be breeding unless you are showing imho.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

49. Or as I would say, no breeding unless you have a really good working dog

I don't believe in breeding for conformation, just purpose/ability.

[MiniMe]

78. There are different types of showing

Some shows are tracking or obedience, or include them.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. I know, I'm against breeding dogs just for conformation

I think it screws the dogs up. For example, the AKC Border Collie isn't even a Border Collie anymore.

I'm a fan of breeding for purpose. Border Collies for herding ability, GSDs for Schutzhund, Labs for hunting, etc.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

48. Wait, so you're complaining that she won't neuter HER dog, but you refuse to neuter yours?

:rofl:

And, electric fences can't be used with all dogs. Tried it with one of mine. He got shocked and it terrified him to the point that he could be around anything beeping for several weeks. He gets put on a chain.

He's also neutered, and our female is spayed, because I'm not an irresponsible owner.

[Fire1]

50. Good for you. There has been no need to neuter my males,

as I have them ALL under full control. Therein lies the difference. If you're NOT going to neuter your dog, at least have it under control for the safety of the dog and the community at large. Everyone else should not have to be subjected to your neglect and inconvenienced because you want to let your animal run wild. THAT, to me, is irresponsible ownership.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

51. Well, neutering them is much healthier for them and they live longer

And, plenty of dogs will take the shock of an electric fence for a bitch in heat. That day is probably coming for you.

Why do you object so much to having YOUR dogs neutered?

[Fire1]

52. For the same reason she does'nt want to neuter hers.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

53. You plan on breeding them?

According to your post, only one of them is purebred. Is he a conformation champion? Has he trialed in hunting/herding/schutzhund to the top levels?

If not, there's no reason to breed him, and in all honesty, I wish the US was like Germany, in that it'd be illegal to breed him.

[Fire1]

54. Yes, I do, if for no other reason than to have his legacy. The

other one is a much smaller and older dog.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

55. That's the most irresponsible reason for breeding ever

You realize how many puppies die because of backyard "breeders" like you?

[Fire1]

56. I am taking him to the certified breeder where he was born/

whelped and purchased, thank you.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

58. And, what makes your dog so special that his legacy should be preserved?

Is he a conformation champion? A trial champion? If he's neither of those things, it really makes me wonder about the "certified" breeder.

[Fire1]

60. I don't think any of this really matters to you one way or the other,

as you seem to eagerly try to find fault, where frankly, there is none. I don't care to continue useless dialogue to defend my rights or stance on the matter. As for 'certified' breeders, you may want to contact the AKA.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

61. "AKA?"

And, no I'm not against breeding if it's to improve the bloodline of the breed, and not to "preserve his legacy."

Just because a dog is AKC (I'm assumed that's what you mean), doesn't mean a thing. The 'bread and butter' of the AKC is puppy mill "breeders." They do more damage to dogs than any other single organization.

[Fire1]

63. My error: AKC, American Kennel Club.

[northernlights]

57. There are more than a million reasons why

neutering *all* of your dogs is the responsible thing to do. Although I still believe the husky owner should pay for the abortion part of your bill. (And I *do* mean the abortion part -- not the spaying.)

It's wonderful that you always have your dogs under full control -- except accidents happen.

We are all human and can make mistakes. And life is a funny thing -- we can do *everything* right and still have it come out wrong.

Over a million dogs are killed each year -- the "luckier" ones euthanized, the less fortunate gassed. Unless someone is showing and home breeding small numbers of dogs, there really is no reason to keep any dog breedable.

[Fire1]

62. I want to breed my Lab to have a legacy after he's gone. I will

get the pick of the litter. I don't care about 'stud' fees. The other male is much smaller and older. Responsibility doesn't end with spaying and/or neutering. It also involves public safety and the welfare of the animal.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. Is he a hunting champion or even an (ick) conformation champion?

If not, there is no excuse to breed him, and no legitimate/responsible breeder will breed a bitch to him. Whether or not they're "AKC Certified," which really means nothing.

[Fire1]

70. Well, pardon millions of us who are apparently on your shit

list but the 'irresponsible' AKC begs to differ and he will breed. The puppies will receive 'legitimate' AKC certification (monetary gain for the breeder and all), as well. As a result of that certification, there will be hundreds of people willing to hand over anywhere from $600.00 - $800.00 for a puppy.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

71. There's a sucker born every minute

Why would somebody hand over $600-800 for a puppy from a sire that has no conformation/working title? For that price, you can get dogs from a proven line.

Just because a dog has papers, doesn't mean it comes from a good line. Like I said, there are plenty of AKC puppy mills out there.

And, my issue with the AKC is that they do ruin many breeds of dogs for the sake of looks. Breeding for looks results in diminished working ability and health problems. Look at retreivers who don't retrieve, German Shepherds that are crippled and the AKC Border Collie is now an entirely different breed than the working ones (and they've only been recognized for about 15 years).

[Fire1]

73. True and these 'suckers' are the reason Labs are very

popular family, sport and assistance dogs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

74. Nothing wrong with Labs from proven lines

[MiniMe]

77. And thousands of them end up in a lab rescue every year

My current lab came from an Amish puppy mill, through rescue, not from the puppy mill itself. Yes, labs are great dogs. That doesn't mean you should breed your dog. If you want another puppy from the same lines, go back to the same breeder.

[northernlights]

66. which other male?

Sorry, you have 2 males so I'm losing track. (Also, one of the people you are heavily engaged with here is on my 'ignore' so I'm missing half that conversation :))

I don't deny that responsibility involves public safety and animal welfare. That is precisely why I continue to believe that the husky owner is responsible for your female's abortion. She was responsible to keep her husky contained and she failed too. And her husky should be neutered...she clearly is not a professional and has no valid reason to keep an intact male.

But I'm sorry, as much as I adore labs (I have 2 lab-cross shelter pups), legacy doesn't cut it. Assuming the one male that you want to breed came from a reputable breeder, there are likely close relatives available that you could get. Unless your lab is a bazillion times over world champion, breeding him is a total luxury. And somehow if he was a bazillion times over world champion, you would already be a professional, would have a fenced outdoor area for your dogs, and would have been able to afford to spay your female.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

68. You apparently have me on ignore, but I agree with you

[Fire1]

72. Well, as stated in earler posts, solid fences are prohibited by

the township ordinance. Secondly, she has been spayed, since the incident. I just wasn't prepared to do it right then at that moment but nevertheless, got it done. Electrical fences are quite expensive and was the first thing installed before I moved in. the electric fence is the standard in this community.

[northernlights]

75. I'm aware that solid fencing is not permitted in your community

My point was that a professional breeder would locate in (or relocate to) an area where they could have appropriate fencing to contain their breeding animals.

I am also aware that your girl has since been spayed, and I still believe that the husky owner should ante up for the abortion.

But I also still believe that both of your intact males should also be neutered, for my reasons stated above. Accidents happen, no matter how careful we are or "in control" we think we are. There is no reason to keep breeding animals if you are not in a position to breed. And "legacy" very simply doesn't cut it for me as an excuse. I have little doubt that close relatives of your beloved lab will be available when the time comes.

Besides which, related or not, there are no replacements for those we love. Even a genetic clone would have different in utero chemistry, different mothering and different life experiences imprinted. The bottom line is we are each unique and should be loved for our unique selves, not due to our resemblence to someone else.

[TZ]

59. I think that this thread is a good illustration of why its responsible

ownership to have your pet spayed or neutered.

[Fire1]

65. As I've said earlier, responsibility does not end with spaying

and/or neutering. Responsible ownership also involves public safety and that of the animal.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

67. But responsibility does start with spaying/neutering

Along with keeping the dog updated with shots and everything. Looks like you didn't do that either.

[TZ]

69. True. But spaying/neutering of all the pets involved here

would have saved a LOT of problems.
And for gawd's sake, if your dog is in heat isn't that kind of noticeable? Wouldn't you keep a close eye on your bitch because of it?

[LeftyMom]

76. You were already aware that an unaltered male was loose in the neighborhood.

You left your unaltered female in heat out. The obvious result happened. While both you and the male's owner deserve a swift kick in the ass for not altering your dogs previously, only you are responsible for the entirely predictable results of your own stupid behavior.

The good news is, you finally altered the poor girl before she gets cancer or a uterine infection or something. Since either option would be much more expensive than an emergency spay, you got off lucky.

If I were the judge in this case, I'd order her to get fencing (electric or not,) both of you to alter the remainder of your pets, and refer you both to a class on responsible pet care.

[flvegan]

80. Let me see if I have this right...

You have three dogs, two males and one female. Prior to her surgery, none of these dogs were altered. How do you intend to prove that the "father" of those pups was the neighbors dog? Potentially, it could have been one of your dogs. Just because you witnessed the neighbor dog mating with your dog doesn't make him the babydaddy. Potentially? Sure. Possibly? Definitely. Likely? I don't think the court will see it that way.

I'm also with most others here. Not altering your dogs is a fools move, especially if you're going to leave one/them outside unattended.

[northernlights]

83. excellent point

fire1, rhetorical question only since we are not judge and jury, just bystanders, but...

how do you intend to prove to a judge -- beyond reasonable doubt -- that neither of your intact males sired the unwanted puppies?

[Fire1]

87. What pups?? My female was spayed for 'prevention.' I

certainly would not attempt to collect 'damages' if my dogs had a mere chance of mating. They are never in the same location at the same time. It's tedious, but can be done. As for proof, the owner has admitted to police officers that her dog breaks the chain she keeps him on and has done so repeatedly. Neighbors have also seen him 'roaming.' The fact that my husband and I witnessed this may not be definitive proof but I'll give it a shot.

[flvegan]

88. Sigh. The $411.60 part of the bill

was an abortive spay, yes (hence the "pups" reference)? Maybe I should have termed it as "the male that impregnated your female. Anyway. Hence you blaming it on the neighbor, right?

So again, without DNA evidence (and yeah, I'm kind of laughing through this) you really don't have any proof that the neighbor dog knocked up your female. I'm sure that you can prove beyond any question that your two intact males are never in contact with your female. I mean, since you did such a bang-up job of keeping males away from her altogether.

[Fire1]

89. Yep, I think I have done 'a bang up job.' Too, an ounce of

prevention is worth a pound of cure. I think DNA and such is throwing good money after bad and who's going to pay for THAT? Where does it end? Spaying was the most cost effective and proficient method to solve the problem and I think she has some responsibility in that.

[northernlights]

91. dna evidence would have been proof of 'fatherhood'

assuming your bitch was pregnant. The point is that either of your own 2 intact males could have bred with her, and you have no way to prove they didn't.

You have no proof that your neighbor's dog got her pregnant. His getting loose, and even his mating with her does not mean he got her pregnant. She may not have been pregnant, and even if she was, it could have been one of your own dogs that got her pregnant.

Your own word that you keep "absolute control" over your 2 intact males is not proof. It is only your word against your neighbor's.

[Fire1]

93. True and I realize the burden of proof is on me. Again, I'll

give it a shot. If I get no damages or restitution, I'll be satisfied if she's forced to get an invisible fence and fined for non-compliance of the ordinance.

[northernlights]

90. so are you saying there was no abortion involved?

Just a simple spay?

Then exactly what is your neighbor supposed to be paying for? Spaying *your* dog?

"As for proof, the owner has admitted to police officers that her dog breaks the chain she keeps him on and has done so repeatedly."

Sorry, but that is in no way proof that her dog knocked up your female dog.

If your female dog got pregnant, it could have been by her dog or it could have been by one of your intact males. Without dna evidence proving fatherhood, you have absolutely no proof whatsever other than your word that you "absolutely control" your male dogs. Your word does not constitute proof in a court.

If your female dog did not get pregnant, then how is your neighbor responsible for paying to spay *your* female dog?

If it was just a "preventive spay" is that in any way more expensive than a normal spay? Because you had a responsibility to spay your female, which you admitted you intended to do in your op.

And another thought has occurred to me. What shelter gave you an intact male dog? I know of *no* pound, shelter or humane society that adopts out adult, unneutered dogs.

And for puppies, the shelters I know of require a sizeable deposit, with proof of neutering when the dog is an appropriate age for return of the deposit.

[Fire1]

92. My son found the female as a puppy at a gas station . The older

male was purchased as a puppy, from for lack of the proper term, a 'safe house' for animals. They are allowed to sell older dogs and puppies at pet stores, all over the state. They've even had homeless and 'retired from racing' Greyhounds up for adoption. Sorry, but back when I adopted my little old male, his papers indicated that he was not neutured but had the required worming and exams.

[MiniMe]

81. My question is why did the dog need her shots?

Are your males unvaccinated too? Getting proper vet care for a dog is part of being a responsible owner. Are you giving your dogs hearworm preventative? If not, that is also irresponsible. I have seen too many dogs come into our rescue with heartworm, and though the treatment isn't as bad as it once was, it is still hard on the dog. Sorry, but letting your female out when she is in heat without very close supervision is also irresponsible, especially if you already knew that an unneutered male was getting loose.

Should the other owner pay part of the bill? Yes, and I don't see her saying that she shouldn't. However, if you had been out there with your dog, as you should have been, you wouldn't have this problem. Phermones are a pretty powerful motivator, and some dogs would go through an electric fence to get to an female in heat. And once they have gotten past their own electric fence, there is nothing that stops them from coming into your yard.

[northernlights]

82. oh, wait a minute...you're right

I misread the original post.

I thought it said the other owner wouldn't pay *any* part of the bill, and I was mistaken.

She thinks the bitch owner should pay *part* of the abortion/spay, which suggests that she has agreed to pay a portion of it was well.

I think the only thing in question then, is how much of the other part of the bill each should pay. I still think she should pay the abortion part. But the OP needs to pay for the spay, which he would have had to do any way.

Edited to correct misreading of OP

[MiniMe]

84. Thanks

I didn't read your original answer before you edited it. Sounds like we agree. I still think that the OP bears some of the responsibility for leaving his female out unsupervised while she was in heat. It is unfortunate that the spay took place while she was in heat, I'm sure that added to the bill. Vets don't like to do spays while a bitch is in heat, everything is swollen with blood at that point. In this case, it was unavoidable. I still think the female should have been spayed to avoid this problem though.

[Fire1]

85. They have yearly exams, shots and screenings. She was up

for hers in June (which has already been done early) and the other two are due for their exams, shots and screenings every July. That's the way the Vet has it set up unless otherwise indicated.

[MiniMe]

86. OK, that is all good then

I'm glad you are getting regular vet care for your pets. However, I still stand by the fact that you shouldn't have let your in heat female out in the yard unsupervised.

[Fire1]

94. HEY!!!! JUDGEMENT FOR THE PLAINTIFF = $411.60!!!!!!!

:woohoo:

[undeterred]

95. Congratulations

:hi:

[Fire1]

96. Thank you!!! n/t

:hi: