Engineering for disaster

[toddaa]

Does anyone else think it's pretty freaking awesome that the Fukashima plants withstood an 8.9 earthquake?
They just need to build the back up power generators a little higher off the ground. DOH!!!


I apologize for being calm and rational in a time of hysterical panic. I'm a bit of an insensitive prick, when it comes to these sorts of things.

[salvorhardin]

1. but but but they're NU-CU-LEE-ER!!

Don't you care about the mutated whale babies the Japanese will be hunting next year?

[onager]

2. "Spirituality has been valued above anything else..."

I watched a Japanese movie tonight, which had the Subject line in the dialogue. That line immediately reminded me of the skeptical grumps in this group. I was also, naturally, thinking of the recent horrible events in Japan.

The movie is Otokotachi no Yamato, or just plain Yamato to us gaijin. It's about the Japanese battleship of that name in WWII, which in 1945 received one of the stupidest orders in military history. An order issued - as the sailors complain - by "our leaders, safe in their bunkers."

Now I have to provide that all-important CONTEXT!!! So here's the whole dialogue, spoken by the ship's captain as he tells the crew that they are about to become the world's biggest kamikaze:

Nippon has neglected the idea of progress. Spirituality has been valued above anything else.

Without progress, nothing prospers.

History shows us - the Satsuma and the Choshu clans were defeated by modern weapons. So they dropped isolationism, bought guns and beat the Shogunate.

Defeat brings understanding.

That's the only way Japan can be helped.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0451845/

[TZ]

3. Poor design actually.

How could they NOT realize that they were due for a historically large and powerful quake right there AND how shortsighted of them not to anticipate a tsunami as well.


Is it just me, or are the same idiots who are slamming the scientists for not knowing anticipating EVERYTHING, the same idiots who also slam scientists as know it alls?

[PVnRT]

4. It was excellent design

Everything stood up, no major structural damage, no containment breaches. The problem is dual power failure (primary and backup) which feeds the cooling water system. That's a failure of planning during the design phase, not a failure of the design itself.

[TZ]

5. Sorry I forgot the sarcasm icon. Really, I AM impressed by their abilities

I don't get why people don't seem to understand that what is happening in Japan is beyond what anyone has or could imagine. I really think that people are getting attacked for not being psychic. Because seriously, I think thats the only way that this could have been avoided.

[SheilaT]

6. Right, noone ever thought that there

could be an earthquake above 8.0. Especially not in a country that has such frequent earthquakes that they hold regular earthquake and tsunami drills.

Yes, what they're accomplishing so far is pretty impressive, but I'm being reminded of my sister, the long-term smoker who continued to smoke even after a very serious heart attack two decades ago who had to have triple bypass surgery two weeks ago. Surprise, surprise.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deep13]

11. Well, it IS Japan.

The whole place is at high risk for earthquakes and Tsunamis are often triggered by them. A 9.0 is unprecidenced in recorded history, but we always knew they were possible. The Japanese planned for this, but they did not think it would ever be this bad.

I understand there are passive safety mechnisms that newer plants have that can hold off a melt down in the event of electrical failure. Perhaps the old ones can be retrofitted.

Am I right in thinking that the control rods are already fully in the reactor? If not, then a means to make sure they snap back into the reactor in the event of power failure is something they may want to think about.

[enki23]

8. you know, there's a point where the autoerotic back patting can go too far.

all sorts of buildings "withstood" the 9.0 earthquake, in that they didn't fall down. that is apparently pretty trivial. whether they're still usable or not? well, the nuke facility sure as fuck isn't. and that's a direct result of the disaster. so, no, actually, it didn't "withstand" the disaster. the bullshit that this isn't a catastrophe because people aren't dropping like flies is at least as stupid as the bullshit that people are going to be dropping like flies any minute now. and no, this isn't some sort of false "balance" bullshit. it's a recognition that the situation isn't fucking rosy, and appears to be getting worse. that which doesn't kill us can still contaminate the fuck out of everything in a wide radius if things go just a little wronger than all the "calm and rational" assurances assure. skepticism doesn't mean "believe whatever the fuck an engineer tells you." there are enough jebus freak engineers out there to demonstrate *that* beyond any reasonable doubt. shit goes wrong, and it can go wrong in ways which we never fucking thought of. that's not mysticism. that's fucking empiricism.

i'm sure, though, that's very difficult for you to remain "calm and rational" when you have no personal stake in anything. that's a big accomplishment for you.

[toddaa]

9. Completely misinterpreted my point

The situation is a disaster because of the tsunami, not the earthquake. Engineers, like scientists and all other miserable humans, are not infallible and I never claimed they were. The shutdown procedures were all going according to well thought out plans after the quake. It was the 30 foot wall of water that fucked things up.

And yes, remaining calm and rational is a major accomplishment for me. I now get a solid 4 to 5 hours of sleep every night due to that major accomplishment. Although, I must admit that this disaster is beginning to shorten my sleep cycle again. Meditation and medication only goes so far.

[Warpy]

10. I've pointed that out, too, that the generators might better

have been located on the roof, say. It's just proof that no matter how well you anticipate disasters and plan for them, you always miss one vitally important little thing and that little thing is always the one that will end up compounding the original disaster.

I think it's awesome that even cheesy little houses and shops withstood that quake, they were all built correctly and to high standards, it seems.