So how do we deal with antigamer DUers?

[Occulus]

There are a couple posters here that are obnoxiously anti-game (one of whom, it seems, has only heard of one game, being GTA).

Couple things to keep in mind:

Anti-gamers do not play games. They don't know the least, littlest jot of information about their subject matter, and since they're anti-game, they won't actually play any of them. They rely on still screens and descriptions from other anti-gamers to justify their position. In that, they are exactly like the anti-gay crowd.

Anti-gamers do not like gamers. They tend to look upon us, even here at DU, as do nothing losers who would rather, to quote another poster, "twiddle (their) joysticks for hours."

Anti-gamers never take objectionable content in a game into the context of the game's world. They only see violence, and violence is baaaaaaad. It doesn't matter if the game world is being overtaken by aliens, zombies, demons, evil crusading adventurers, or whatever. These are the same people who were against the Atari 2600 game "Berzerk" because you had to "shoot people". It didn't matter then that the "people" were robots, and it doesn't matter now that aliens are taking over the world and intend to wipe out humanity unless you, the player, can stop it. They're against video game violence, period. And they have a very so-called "liberal" idea of what "violence" is.

Should we just put these idiots on ignore? To me.... I've been hearing their crap for years, and it never, ever changes. And they never, ever actually play the games they're talking about, and they never, ever consider that maybe gamers know the subject matter better than nongamers.

So how should we handle these people? Personally, I'd like to see all of us in this forum gang up on the antigamers in other threads and simply outnumber them to the point they lose interest. We have the numbers, after all; Penny Arcade proved as much.

Maybe we could all put them on ignore and then go to those gaming threads w2ith lots of "ignored" posts and snarkily speculate on which poster is saying what based on the unignored replies. That could actually be fun....

Any ideas on how to shut these people up or something, considering we've all heard it all a thousand times, and it still makes as much sense as it all did twenty-odd years ago?

Anti-gamers: teats on a bull. Discuss.

[Sin]

1. I try as much as i can

There's no arguing with them
its like the dodge logic some how, contradict them selfs and are blatant hypocrites and have no real knowledge on the subject other then
"video games are badddd lets restrict them"

yet they hold the moral high ground
I my head hurts I need a drink.

[da_chimperor]

19. At first I tried reason

Then I tried constructive mockery. I think I won't bother trying again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Hmm some of us actually work in the industry

and we take issue not with the game itself but game companies getting cute and getting around the rules they all agreed to play by. Why? When they do that, they hurt gamers and manufacturers. I hope you can understand that.

reaching for my professional hat

Nadin Brzezinski
President Deist Games

And Freelancer for multiple paper and pencil game companies.

As is I will tell you exactly the same thing I tell parents when they tell me, but gaming is not good for christian boys and girls, yes have faced them... fine, it is NOT my responsibility to keep your kids away from what I produce, it is your responsibity...

But when game companies (and the makers of GTA did that) get around the rules they chose by leaving easter eggs in (yes that was the issue), then there is a Small problem... mostly free ammo.

[Occulus]

3. And while that is true,

and the anti-gamers do use that (and, it seems, only that, these days) as an example, well... that's not exactly what I had in mind.

Why? Because it does no good.

Could we- I don't know- maybe make a morality game, where things change based on what you do i.... oh. "Black & White".

Well, then, could we make a game full of "wholesome" entertainment, maybe like one where you roll a ball and pick up stuff and... oh. "Katamari".

Well, then, what about an adventure game, where things change based on what you do in..... oh. "Fable".

Well, how about a giant doll house, where you can control.... oh. "The Sims".

See, there's the problem. People do make some really really great, nonviolent (or mostly so) games, and these people just pick up on one aspect of it and run with it. Like homophobes, these people just. Hate. Games.

Period.

So, how can we combat it?

[Sin]

4. We try to inform

and try some more then repeat, maybe change some minds in the process we have #'s the way it is some Mr's you will never change you can truly sit the truth down in front of them and and they will spill out all that saved up hate they have on because the they garner all there evidence from the news bile spewing people like Jack Thompson that will tell any one how evil games are for a $1.75 and or the drop of a hat not from actually playing the games.
So in general they don't want to play them ( most are over the age gap on them ) they have all these preconceived misconceptions about games. and game company's Id say a fair few of them the most they know about video game tech and heck id even go so far to say computer tech is that it's scary and "All I know how to do is turn it on and search the web"
So you have all that to climb through and still you will have those that just are not going to hear any thing about it.

So just inform try to break every thing down into simple ez words for people that have never even touched a controller in there life
if you change there mind or at least get them thinking about the other side we might have a future gamer in store for lots of fun.
If not no big loss they were not going to change any way and seeing as how those certain Mr's out there will buy enough rope to hang them self with Then again it seems that brand of crazy is finding bigger and bigger Soap boxes to stand on as they shout at the rain
So I don't know in some cases best thing we can do is just keep plodding along with what we know and speak the truth best thing we can hope to do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Like in everything else there is a certain

group that don't like you. It is human nature. Many of us in the industry realize it. Hell my sister does not like gamers, and her reason are as good as any...

In her experience they are rude, need a bath, and are failures in life.

Yep her first contact with gamers (and last) was at a local store and they needed a bath BADLY... but they were your typical fringe elements that exist in any hobby...

Then there is my brother in law's son, he is shall we say a failure... (from a previous marriage) and for a good while his whole fixation was Shadowrun, not playing it, just having it... the kid is a failure... and I mean that with all that this means.

So my sister had two very bad experiences and you know what I respect her. She wants her two sons NOT to play games because of these two experineces... and she has a right to fear for them, after what she saw. Hell I have gone to stores myself and I have turned to my husband and have said it, if It weren't because I work in this bloody industry, my kids would not play games either (Assuming we had any, the parrots don't count even if they perfectly capable of rolling dice). What I am trying to say is that the major problem gamers have is well gamers... I am not kidding. It is a small fringe that lives fully the stereotype and actually pushes women like myself away from gaming as well. And until gamers get that under control, good luck.


I also realize it is not hate for gaming perse, and I cannot do anything about it. So I don't loose sleep over it, much. But when companies give some free ammo, I have to go find the nearest wall and bang my head against it. As to gamers, until gamers themselves force people to take baths, no that is not a stereotype it is real, there is nothing I can do about it. And that is just the top of the list.

[TroubleMan]

7. Hot Coffee wasn't an easter egg - it was a mod

To be an easter egg you have to be able to get there through normal gameplay. To get Hot Coffee you had to intentionally mod GTA. Huge difference. You have to purposely go to a website and mod your game.

Also, the naked skins were added by the modders.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Regardless it was there it was ammo

and by the agreements the company agreed to abide by, it SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE...

next

[TroubleMan]

10. It wasn't there until you modded the game and doing so violates the EULA

that gamers agree to, when they install the game. Therefore, they're using the game intentionally in a way that they agreed not to.

I admit it was lazy and stupid for them to leave it in, but it was blown way out of proportion. I can make a "hot coffee" mod for any game if I have the proper programming skills. The fact that people say they "put sex in the game" is bullshit. They took it out, and modders added back in the gameplay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. I WILL NOT get into the argument with you

fact is it provided the ammo they needed

Fact is... the company even agreed to ahem change it for the game went from M to NC-17

So they admitted to wrong doing by doing that, and this is the stand in the industry... only saving grace they agreed to do what needed to be done.

Fact is, they did it... and it VIOLATED the agreements they had with the industry. That is a fact... but if you want to get technical go ahead.... the damage done was by the game company... and I know the work it would have taken to remove it from the code... oh well... they should have thought better before they left it IN THE CODE.

[TroubleMan]

13. I'm not trying to argue with you; I agree they should have gotten rid of

the code.

It think it was more trying to meet a deadline than anything - they didn't want to delay the release date. I just think that the politicians who blew it out of proportion actually thought that it was part of the game, and not a mod.

It should have been an NC-17 rated game even without the hot coffee mod IMHO. I enjoyed the game, and my teenage step-son loved it. I don't let my 7 year old play it though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Well I don't buy the deadline part

I will explain why, they denied it in the begining.

Now it should have been NC-17 but it was not because if it were, no distro on major channels such as wally mart

[Occulus]

15. Which would have meant I couldn't buy it.

NO store- Gamestop, Best Buy, Target, Meijer, Circuit City, etc, and etc., will carry an AO rated game. To get it, I *nust* buy it online. I have no choice.

I do not have a valid CC. I *have* one, but I'm paying it off, and intentionally had it shut down so I could pay it off without adding to the charges. This was a couple years ago.

If I can't buy a game off the shelf, I can't buy the game, period. Therefore, to me, it's de facto censorship, and please spare me the lecture about CC "abuse". I know what happened, and learned my lesson years ago.

This is the ONLY CC I have ever had. But I can't use it to buy anything, and once it's paid off, I'm done with that industry forever. That, however, is irrelevant.

I can't buy AO rated games. Period.

My solution: retailers should be required to carry AO rated games. They don't have to display them, and they can go ahead and ask for ID, but by just yanking them off the shelf, they're very effectively censoring them from a VERY large segment of the adult population.

This is wrong.

People like the Aforementioned Poster Who Shall Not Be Named cackle with glee at my dilemma, until they can't see certain movies or read certain books. Well, welcome to my world.

I'm an adult. I should be able to buy the games I choose to buy. I can't, because I "need" a CC to do so.

Is it SO HARD to keep AO games out of view, under the counter, with maybe a small sign saying, "We do sell AO rated games. Ask for them."

WHY is this so difficult to understand- and why SHOULDN'T I see it as the exact form of censorship we're all supposed to be against?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. I fully understand the dilema

trust me I do... when it comes to electronic games I have had no time to play them in a while. Heck my hubby seats down to play city of heroes \ villains on a regular basis (I just go ohh amazing environments) but given I am quickly aproaching deadline I don't think I have sat down and played a game in six months.

And your solution was once proposed to gamestop et al. Their reasoning behind it, they would have to ask for a photo ID. They should ask for a photo ID for M games anyway (and kids at 17 DO HAVE mostly a drivers licence) but bringing them to that point is hard.

Now why should it have been AO? Mostly the theme... mostly... I am married to a cop, so on principle that game does not enter these doors... his choice actually. There are some other games that should be AO and are rated mature too... and it has to do with the level of gore and blood they have in them...

Then again philosophically I have reached a point in my life that when I write a wargame and the fiction that goes with it... major characters will be killed or otherwise seriously disabled a book. Why? We glorify violence as a nation, without consquence... but that is part of the discusssion insofar as what games (and other media) should protray.

Which reminds me, I have written a very long letter to a couple US Sentors... yep you guesed exactly which two. I told both of them, that if they are going to cackle so severely about GTA (which is their right), what about America's Army? This RECRUITING tool is meant for the 12-14 market, and I am sorry the exercise of going through Army training that young is far worst, (IMO) than GTA's assault on the police station... why? GTA was not meant to recruit you into the Cribs, America's Army does... and as is the values of honor, courage, integrity portrayed in the game are quickly becoming optional in a world of Mercenaries.

Lets just say I am still waiting for a response.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

5. I've seen those threads...

And I've got most of the threads (and the people in question) on ignore now.
The ones that I don't have on ignore eventually make it there.

There's no changing their minds.
None whatsoever.

And if you "gang up" on them, you'd most likely get banned from DU.
The best thing to do is ignore their posts, either by clicking on ignore, or by ignoring the whole threads. Anyone who tell you to "twiddle your joystick", well, you should click "Alert" on them. (I consider that an insult. I don't know how the Mods will consider it, though...)

Like I said, you can't change their minds.

[TroubleMan]

9. I've come to the conclusion that Mr. Benchley is Hillary Clinton.

Of course, here's the one the OP was talking about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1955276


Then you have:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1963113#1963761

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1956338

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1958268#1958394

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1873080#1875479

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5464636

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5468278#5468465

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5468815#5469166

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5430336#5432550

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5299445#5299692

There's a lot more, too.

It's funny in the first thready how he(she?) accuses people of being like Rush, when he(she?) in fact is supporting a postition that Rush supports....LOL

[Occulus]

11. Wow, that's.... pretty abusive crap.

I mean, wow..... there really is a pattern to his posts.

[LincolnMcGrath]

18. K & R

:hi:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

20. i'm editing this down to say that that poster is full of shit.

everyday. all the time. neither rain nor sleet nor snow can prevent that poster from being completely full of shit, and overzealously so.

[IA_Seth]

24. LOL

Yeah, the whole "twiddle their joysticks" comment comes out quite regularly, doesn't it?

What kills me is his total lack of knowledge about games and the gaming industry, but whatever I guess.

[ContraBass Black]

25. I tried being reasonable with him once.

Waste of time.

[Greyhound]

30. And still the lone occupant of my ignore list.

:rofl:

[bvar22]

17. That particular DU Member marginalizes himself every time he posts.

I don't think anyone here is fooled by someone who just stamps their foot and insists that they are right without any attempt at logic or rational argument. The only way to deal with that very small minority (1), is not to play.


"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance----That principle is contempt prior to investigation!"---Herbert Spencer


It is not just the gamers, but those who enjoy Automotive Racing (NASCAR), Sports, Hunting, Fishing, Golf, Bowling, or a number of other passtimes. I don't enjoy Hunting, Bowling, and I especially hate Golf, but I don't judge those who tell me that they find Fulfillment in those activities. I know some brilliant people who LOVE those activities. Who am I to judge something I know little about.

CHESS is a boring, useless activity to those who don't understand the game. So is NASCAR. So are Computer Games.

I prefer the 1st Person Shooters. HL2 RULES, but San Andreas is a close 2nd. I have NEVER shot anyone, jacked a car, or saved my neighborhood from the Drug Lords, but I loved the game.

People who JUDGE that which they have never experienced are FOOLS! A few people , like the poster mentioned above, are compelled to display their ignorance, intolerance, and closed mindedness in public forums. It must be a form of Masochism...Public self-humiliation and self-degradation. There is a small cult in Asia where the self-hating members smear excrement over themselves in public. I guess our MisterB is something like that.... poor MisterB. The only way to help him is to ignore him.

[Orsino]

21. I don't think they need handling.

I even agree with them up to a point. I think that violent games must be desensitizing us to violence, though I believe that the effects are small and within the rights of adults to enjoy.

I don't have the patience for such games. Doom was the last one I tried, and it got old after a few hours. I do enjoy BZ Flag, though; does that count? Its violence is pretty abstract, compared to, say, GTA.

I'm all for labeling content. I'm against banning adults from games that simulate vilence.

[Sin]

22. Yea they do.

Desensitizing us to violence? life desensitizes us more to violence then video games.
The last game you played was doom? ummm then why do you even care about the topic at hand. + they have been labeling content since doom ( Doom, MK, Night trap and others were the games that brought about self regulation) I think I can dig up my old box for the pc and 32x and see the nice label that stood for for mature on it.
What there trying to do is basically scare people into a frenzy to put civil bans on games and or limit modding of games. that will probably scare away people from the field that could could create the next gen of games we enjoy to play. + that will force retailers into a corner, with heavier restriction on game developers, they will start to leave stuff out to garner a better rating and that will create stagnation in game development.
So we do need to handle these people and not with kid gloves because there all ready pocketing ez to pocket politicians and getting them to parrot there delusional view. Because the have no concept on what there talking about just who there talking to and we know those people they will not just stop at our games they will come for yours next.

[Orsino]

23. As my post indicated, I don't care much.

I don't mind limiting kids' access to violent games. Seems like a good idea to ensure (sorta) that kids get them only from adults.

I haven't seen a serious effort to ban such games altogether, but if I did I'd be worried, too. Personally, I think there's too much money to be made from games for a ban ever to get considered.

[DrGonzoLives]

26. Are they?

I think that violent games must be desensitizing us to violence

If that's true, why is Japan much less violent than the U.S.? Have you seen some of the games sold there that don't get imported here?

Hint: It's not a one-issue answer

[Maestro]

27. Violence in games has been around since games started.

Cowboys and Indians that kids used to play was essentially a violent game because they were simulating with guns and bows and arrows the killing of others. But of course no one took objection to this, at least not many. The way I see it, the anti-gaming crowd is upset now because the games are graphic. Well, folks, this is where good parenting comes into play. If you don't want your kids to play GTA, then make sure you watch them, but of course, screaming about how evil it is will simply make the kids want to play more. I really think that, as a parent, you need to sit down and explain what is going on in these games and that much of what is going on is fantasy, not real, and certainly not something to do in real life. Nonetheless there are conservative groups who, instead of wanting to be better parents, feel the need to ban or censor these games instead. It really is stupid.

How to deal with them here? Courteously, but in the end, if they do not want to listen, then put them on ignore.

[Sin]

28. Was doing some looking around.

Bumped into this web sight http://www.gamepolitics.com/index.htm
looks pretty informative and it seems gamers are gathering there finding out what can be done and what is being done or at least trying to be done to vid games through political means.

didn't see it posted here before Seems like a good start, happy reading.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Aff GAMA to the list

this figfht is not new, just the means have changed...

www.gama.org

[Downtown Hound]

31. Screw 'em

There's always going to be a group of people that look for a simplistic answer to all of society's problems, most of which can be traced to one simple thing: poverty. Yes, it's more complicated than that but I do believe poverty is responsible for the overwhelming majority of social problems in the United States, and all other major problems are in one way shape or form connected to it. In the 50's they tried to say that comic books were the cause of juvenile delinquency. Then it was rock 'n' roll, TV, yadda, yadda ya.

I've given up trying to argue with such people. It's pointless. I don't worry that video games will be banned because it's much too big of a business for that to happen. So I leave anti-gamers to indulge in their fantasies about how video games are the root of all evil. I might pose a question to them about why human history is often far more violent than it is today when there were no video games around to desensitize people to violence or why Japan and Europe are far less violent than America when they play the same games we do. It just so happens that those countries have much lower rates of poverty and things like gun control, universal health care, a media that is not controlled by right wing fascists, first rate education and so forth. Coincidence? I tend to think not.

Doesn't matter what they say. I'll still be the first one in line to buy a copy of the next Resident Evil.