Sexualizing the Condi-Bush relationship.

[AP]

Does this bug anyone besides me?

To resond to that last post, I'm not saying that Condi's above criticism because she's a black woman. I'm saying that the criticisms that imagine her as sexually available to Bush are racist. Nobody makes sexual availability jokes about Karen Hughes or any other man or woman in that administration.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2699209

[qanda]

1. You probably should just hit alert

And be done with it. Sometimes people are just trying to get a reaction out of people, and obviously it works.

I have seen some pretty lude things about Karen Hughes, Karl Rove and a few others. I think a lot of the criticism of Condi has to do with her slipping up and calling Bush her husband. But there's no excuse for that kind of post.

[xultar]

3. You're right about the HUSBAND slip. I forgot Condi did that . n/t

[AP]

4. I don't think that's a true story. It was hearsay and nobody ever...

...confirmed.

I think it comes from the same sort of racism. I think she probably said something else but some RW'er who thinks the job of black women is to be sexually available to powerful white men heard "husband." That, or she didn't say anything of the sort but the RW way to present Rice is using this racist BS so tha they don't lose the racists so they invented that story.

[xultar]

5. I think you're wrong in your initial post we've all said things about

KKKarl goin down on Dick (Cheney) or vice versa some of the things said about Kathrine Harris make me blush.

Plus it is stereotypical for people to think that of all attractive women in power.

The racist angle is WAY off base here. Tasteless yes. Racist no.

[AP]

6. I've never heard anyone say that Cheney sucks Bushs' dick or anything

sexual about Hughes at all (and she was a TV anchor once).

I've heard people say the media sucks bush's dick, but that's thanks to MWO creating that image.

[qanda]

8. Actually it was in the Washington Post...

And I'm not trying to validate what other's say, but their relationship does seem unusually close. Also, before Karen Hughes left to "spend more time with her family" there were plenty of lude posts about her, but those are the thread that I normally ignore completely.

[AP]

14. It was in a gossip column and it wasn't sourced and nobody ever confirmed

it. There were other people at the dinner and the ONLY place it appeared was the gossip column.

And I'll say it again: I don't remember any Karen Hughes sex posts (and there haven't been any in months). But EVERY time Condi Rice is mentioned, people characterize her as being sexually available to W. That is the PRIMARY image people have of her. It is based on sexist and racis clichés, I believe, and I wish people would think harder about the messages they're affirming when they write about her that way.

[AgadorSparticus]

24. i disagree. i don't think the comments are based on racist cliches.

no national security advisor spends this amount of time with their boss. she goes to crawford and spends easter with bush and his family. it's a little odd, don't you think? especially when * brags about his ability to work in crawford via phones and teleconferencing?

[AP]

25. But if one did and wasn't a black woman I highly doubt you'd get all

the sexual allusions.

[goclark]

42. I think she is fair game , she is always

proud that she has such complete access to him.
In my view, that is not about sex all the time, but it really is about her absolute power.

It does remind me of Thomas Jefferson/Sally Hemmings a bit.

Condi, sex or no sex attached, has far more power than Sally.

In some ways,she probably likes the fact that "a nice colored girl that is smart can have the ear or the President of the United States."

I happen to think she is being used but that is just my view.

[AP]

43. But you're only hurting yourself by attacking her this way. It makes

racists like Bush more and it completely obfuscates the PERFECTLY GOOD REASONS FOR DISLIKING HER -- HER DAMNED POLITICS.

Think of it this way: Bush is quite possibly playing you by getting you to focus on this, which prevents you from articulating an explanation for not liking her that would actually persuade moderates and reasonable people not to vote for Republicans.

[goclark]

44. I am not attacking her

I am just expressing my view.
Expressing it as an African American to mostly African Americans.


I am sure that Bush doesn't care a bit about my opinion, or yours.

[AP]

45. You really think sexuallizing her relationship with Bush helps Democrats?

[goclark]

46. Right now nothing helps Democrats

I am a liberal democrat, have been all my life.

Kerry said wonderful things in the campaign. Most were PC and yet they bashed him for everything that came out of his mouth.

Tell us what words we can use to help Democrats and I would be glad to use them all day long.

How is this?????

"Condi Rice is a brilliant example of what African Americans should represent.... supportive of causes that affect her people, strong on helping the poor, for the war that is killing innocent people of color, doesn't want to leave any child behind, supportive of health care issues that cut to the heart of our community ,strongly supports every issue that comes from those lovely NeoCons in the current Administration, beats down all efforts to destroy the civil rights issues facing our country-publicly says that she hates the civil rights stance of the Republicans etc. etc."

"As an African American I am one of her biggest fans!"

***** Now will GWB and the Republicans like us?
Not!

[AP]

48. Do you think SEXUALIZING the relationship between Bush and Rice helps...

...Democrats?

[AP]

49. Criticize her for what she does, and not for what the photo-ops make

people with dirty minds think about.

Janet Jackson, Desperate Houswives, Rice. Republicans WANT you to think about sex so that you don't realize what's really going on. It doesn't help to play into that.

[xultar]

2. I but Karen Hughes is somethin f'ugly. Condi is attractive we said the

same things about Katherine Harris and Jeb & *.

Don't make it a race issue.

[Kahuna]

19. Here here. Condi is just more believable than Hughes...

It's got nothing to do with race.

[chimpymustgo]

7. I think that's an interesting observation. And perhaps

subconsciously that is driving some of the jokes. But the fact that she is not married, spends all her vacations with Bush, and is not too horrible looking is probably the main force.

I'll bet a bunch of redneck Christians think she's "servicing" Bush - and doing God's work.

[msgadget]

9. As a woman I don't like it

when a woman in a high position is sexualized.

HOWEVER, I have seen sexually suggestive spoofs regarding the relationship between the pres and Blair and, indeed, his VP! :puke:

America is still racially sensitive and the Right realizes that. I say we don't fall for it. I say we bash every unacceptable nominee free from guilt...but that's just me.

[AP]

16. All I'm saying is, bash them for the reasons that hurt the most.

Bashing her for having a sexual relationship hurts black women (who are mostly Democrats) way more than it hurts her or Bush.

Bash Bush and Condi for being fascists who are incompetent and give stupid justifications for their actions.

[HamdenRice]

10. White people seem also testy about ...

her "competence", which is also a code word for affirmative action. Here's the strange thing: the entire administration is utterly incompetent by any measure. Yet many seem to delight in focusing on Rice's incompetence. I think this is a kind of unconscious connection that people make.

[msgadget]

11. Well, I don't know

that they're wrong. She was ineffective enough that the president had to take over part of her job. Further, what has she done to make herself a strong figure in the administration? And, I've heard many complaints about Rumsfeld's incompetence.

Appointing a black female to a high position was a brilliant move BECAUSE many blacks (and women) are going to be mightily offended over criticisms about her. That doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to held accountable.

I didn't like the poll but I also don't think she's good at her job.

[HamdenRice]

12. She is incompetent!

They are all incompetent, which is the most amazing thing that this administration gets away with.

What I'm getting at is that people use labels in an unconscious way. Cheney is evil. Rice is incompetent. Powell is ineffectual or an uncle Tom. Bush is an idiot. Wolfowitz is part of a cabal of Israel-firsters. Rumsfeld is callous. Etc.

I think that many of the adjectives we associate with these characters have more to do with our pre-judging them than with what they do. Really, I don't see why we don't focus on Rice being evil, considering her ties to the oil industry and agribusiness. Wolfowitz is thought of in anti-Semitic terms, but really his biggest flaw is incompetence and callousness.

In other words, how we criticize each one has a lot to do with stereotypes, and because Rice is a youngish black woman promoted quickly through the ranks, she draws a lot of unconscious anti affirmative action labelling -- even from people like Tenet and Dick Clark.

Also, because she is an unmarried, school-marmish looking woman, her critics play up the assumed sexual frustration/desire for Bush that this thread was originally about. How do we know she isn't getting sexually rocked every night by some boyfriend -- or girlfriend? Because single black schoolmarms don't get any.

<edited>

[msgadget]

13. I hadn't noticed that.

What do Tenet and Clark say about her?

She draws that particular criticism by her actions, don't you think? She's either walking beside the pres or defending him, rarely states a position of her own and didn't have the requisite cajones to get the agencies to work together. She doesn't project strength. Rumsfeld and the rest of them do project a (malevolent) strength.

I gotta admit though, I winced upon reading her slip of the tongue and also when they speculated on her love life. It was mean-spirited and irrelevant and made her seem quite the isolated figure.


I don't want history to be unkind to Dr.Rice but she's been positioned out front with a huge target on her chest. I'm hoping she surprises everyone and grows into her new position as a representative of America's interests, not just the president's.

[HamdenRice]

36. Rice as incompetent

I've read some of the bush bashing books, but not Clark's but there was a lot of coverage of one vignette about Rice. Clark, recall, was a holdover from the Clinton adminstration. Both Clinton and Clark believed the biggest threat to the US as bin Laden and al queda. Clinton tried to tell bush that, and Clark tried to tell Rice that. In the book, apparently, Clark says that when he tried to brief Rice about bin Laden and al queda, she gave a look like she didn't know who bin laden was. Clark also gave interviews suggesting Rice was incompetent.

Tenet after being forced out has apparently leaked his view that Rice is incompetent.

[AP]

15. I believe she dates that guy from Fox, which, if true, would be much more

fertile ground for crticism (in terms of media bias) than the idea that she's Bush's sex slave.

[msgadget]

17. The more I think about it,

the more I feel sorry for her because, like most pioneers, she's a target.

First of all, her being in the public domain gives me - someone who's never met the woman - the opportunity to discuss her as though I had. Second, because she's not a camera-hog and likes being a background player she unwittingly gives off that Good Negro vibe. But, she's a close confidant of and tutor to the president, a claim no other Black female has been able to make before.

All the respect in the world won't stop me from talking about her actions in office, however. But, I won't participate in defaming her personally.

[chimpymustgo]

18. Well, please allow me to defame her sorry, lying ass.

She is incompetent and full of shit. And racially delusional. She deserves to be a target, and I hope she gets completely taken down.

[Kahuna]

20. Tell us how you really feel...

:7 :hi:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tjdee]

28. What guy from Fox?

????

[goclark]

47. What guy from Fox?

I have never heard that one.

[AP]

50. Juan Williams. I heard she was dating Juan Williams once.

[ecstatic]

22. excellent point

The whole admin is incompetent. However, educationally speaking, Rice is very accomplished. If not Rice, *who* was more qualified for the position?

[bettys boy]

26. "Accomplished" != "qualified"

Dr. Rice's expertise in Sovietology is unquestioned, but she has minimal background as an Arabist.

Her retention after 9/11 was part of a simple contention: the sheer, Reaganesque resolve that worked in bringing down the Soviets will also defeat the Jihadists.

Specific area knowledge wasn't required, or for that matter, desired. Whatever she needed to know about the Middle East she could learn on the fly.

[msgadget]

32. You know what I wonder?

This particular president came to office woefully ignorant of foreign policy. I'm sure he wasn't the first and he had as his tutor his longtime friend, Dr. Rice. Okay, what I wonder is this: if he'd been more secure in his knowledge of foreign policy and history might he have engaged in far wider discussions? I'm wondering how great an impact that had on his reliance on the Vulcan clique.

[sonicx]

21. if it's anything, it more on the sexism side (i'm guilty too, tho)...

but as for Hughes vs Rice

1. condi is in a higher position.

2. i can see how condi could be attracive to some (even personality wise), but Karen Hughes is plain nasty all around.

3. there was that 'husband' quote (yes, it was a rumor, but this is a liberal message board. if it hurts the other side, we're more inclined to believe it).

4. pictures of them(rice and bush) appearing to be effectionate seem to pop up alot. and that of cource will trigger jokes. pictures like that of anyone will get jokes. I remember people joking that McCain and Jenna Bush were f-ing based on interesting snapshots of them. Hell, i remember awhile back people saying that George(!) was banging Jenna based on pictures taken at some dinner party.

[tjdee]

27. Condi's not married, either.

I don't think it's racist either.
As someone above said, I think it's just Condi's more believable.
She's unattached, reasonably young, accomplished (not at her past two jobs though)...and she is very close to him.

[AP]

29. One of the most common stereotypes in the office is...

...if a man goes on a business trip with a male boss, it's a sign that his career is going someplace and he's getting the job done. If a woman goes on a business trip with the boss, she's having an affair.

That's definitely sexist. That's half of what this is all about.

It's insane that people are justifying this stereotype because condi is "attractive."

People, think about what you're saying and about the stereotypes you're affirming.

And there is stereotype about the sexual availability of black women (which is exploited by the film Monster's Ball, by the way).

DU's really disappointing me here.

[tjdee]

30. I don't think it's directed at her alone though, AP.

If that female worker went on a business trip with her boss and they hugged and kissed each other at a professional function, you'd BET that talk would go on, and not because everyone is sexist.

Actually I think Bush is the sexist, as he has kissed and hugged his subordinates at a professional function. I wouldn't want my male boss kissing me on the lips and being that chummy with me while purporting to tell everyone how qualified I am.

As to the sexual availability...that's rooted in slavery days I guess... but I think if Condi were Katherine Harris, we'd be hearing the same things.

[AP]

31. Bush isn't treating Condi any differently then two friends might treat

each other. And I also think there's a pretty good chance that the administration is encouraging people to think this way becaus it sends smoke signals to sexits and racists that the Republicans agree with them.

[msgadget]

33. Yes, that might be the point

I've noticed professional men minimizing the power of a female by being overly familiar or courtly thus calling undue attention to her femininity. Gonzales is a close friend but he didn't slap him on his butt. :D The other side doesn't like outspoken women.

[tjdee]

34. I still disagree...he kissed the Secretary of Ed. on her lips as well.

I'm looking at this in terms larger than that of Condi, I'm not sure if you're aware that he also kissed the Sec. of Ed. as well.

I just think it's inappropriate for a boss to behave that way--but then again, I'm not a touchy feely person with most people.

I would agree, though, about the smoke signals.

[msgadget]

37. I'm agreeing with you

and adding how being overly affectionate or courtly can be demeaning since it takes away any show of strength. Condi's a brain but she's known best for being his close friend and confidant instead of equal to Rumsfeld, et al. That's sexist, not racist. I think we agree, no?

[AP]

38. But it's Bush doing that, and we call Condi the whore? Maybe Bush is doing

this on purpose to show white men what he really things about black men: they shoudl be sexually available.

Why do we punish Condi for being Bush's pawn?

[msgadget]

39. WHOA! Don't include me in that 'we', please.

I haven't said anything remotely like that. My position is,her policies and job performance as fair targets but her gender, race, marital status and miscellaneous other personal speculations are out of the bounds of good taste. And, honestly, I think her buddy has always treated women this way and what we or his constituents think is all on us. It's speculation, possibly even projection.

Please, do not associate me with devaluing another female on the basis of her gender and race. I don't go there.

[AP]

40. Not you, not me. DU generally.

The prevailing mood at DU is to talk about sex when you talk about Rice.

[msgadget]

41. Yes, and it's disturbing

I've got a sense of humor and I'm not prone to crying racist or sexist quickly but I can't help but notice the threads about her surgery and looks with some queasiness. Is this just one political party ripping into another's appointments? Maybe that's all it is. To me, being a liberal means all races and genders are equal enough for women in power to take the same vicious assaults her male counterparts do but there is evidently still a faint line that exists for people of color regarding their women (and even their men).

Unfortunately, I'm sure the other side would do the same to a Dem appointment like her and we'd all be furious, not just curious! :silly:

[HamdenRice]

35. Who's going to read to the ADHD dyslexic problem child?

There was a lot of leaked information about the Bush/Rice relationship to the effect that their main bond is that Bush, because of dyslexia, is barely literate, and that Rice actually reads his morning briefings to him. And she does so in a way that does not condescend to Bush or make him feel uncomfortable

If Rice goes to the State Dept., a different building, who will read to the dyslexic problem child?

Have any of you heard about this reading to bush problem?

[vet_against_Bush]

51. I made such a joke but I also joked that Jesus and Mary Magdelane...

were seeing each other. I understand your concern but I am no racist.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

52. I think it's more about sexism than racism

Just look at the crap that gets spouted about Ann Coulter, Laura Bush, and the twins. It's still NOT appropriate either way, of course...but Karen Hughes being left out of the insults doesn't mean they're racist, it just means she's a less prominent figure (it took me a second to remember who Hughes even was!).

[TroubleMan]

53. It doesn't really bug me....but the original poster is mostly right

Jefferson - Hennings

Capt. Kirk - Uhuru

Strom Thurmond - Carrie Butler

About 1000 white guys in movies - Halle Berry

The sheriff on Dolemite II - the lady he groped at the party

ect. ect.

There's always real or imagined fantasy for the white man in power to have some secret black love slave, whether she's a maid, slave, works for him, whatever.

While this scenario often plays out in real life, it's not good for us to reinforce a stereotype. I've posted similar jokes and not even realized it, but the original poster is right. It's really not correct to reference this without proof.

Hell, if you didn't know me, you could say I fall into this. My wife is black. However, if you knew me, you'd know I've dated all races indiscriminately. I don't see race at all, and I hate looking at things where the frame of reference is the person's skin color. But then again just looking at a white guy with a black wife, then I might be categorized into the same way we often associate bush with Condi, and it's not right.

[Logansquare]

54. I guess for me I get a "flirty" vibe from her

in her dealings with these powerful white men who have served as her mentors. It's really a common way for women to interact with men in corporate Republican environments. You get power from daddy if you bat your eyelashes at him and tell him he's so big and strong...

[msgadget]

55. REALLY?

Flirty? Seriously? Wow, I never considered that. Is being feminine flirty?