Is there something in the water? Yet another wayward thread...

[mark414]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3100521#3100654

[SemiCharmedQuark]

1. Yes, how the slaves loved their massas. Ugh!

[HamdenRice]

2. I'm on it!

Hi Mark and SemiCharmed,

How's this reply? I wonder should I PM him to make sure he reads it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3100521&mesg_id=3108917

[mark414]

3. ohh that's good

if you PM him, maybe even mention that in some Caribbean islands specifically, it was actually MORE profitable to literally work the slaves to death and just bring more over from Africa than it was to "breed" them and support slave children, so that's exactly what they did.

[HamdenRice]

4. I did PM him and here's what happened!

I simply sent the link to my post. You are right -- I should have been more explicit about the never ending importation and "use up" issue. His reply is at bottom, and my reply to his reply starts right under this sentence, so read from the bottom up, sort of:


I read the entire post and it is just emprically wrong. If it is empirically wrong, and yet people like you keep repeating it, one has to wonder why? And if you follow economic logic, if no free worker would trade places, as you admit, then that is obvious proof that conditions for slaves were far worse. As for the sea islands, as I mentioned there were a few counties that were exceptions, but of course that proves nothing. Some inmates in Hitler's extermination camps also were well provided for (eg musicians) and that proves absolutely nothing about the moral or material conditions of the camps. Let's face it: your position is utterly indefensible, and reasonable people can only speculate as to the reason you insist on defending it.

>>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
>You might want to refer to the ongoing archaeological work on
>the Georgia Sea Islands.
>
>Slaves were given at least minimal attention, because unlike
>their free brethren, they represented the wealth of their
>owners. However, as I stated in my post, there was not a
>single free man who was making less than subsistence who would
>have traded places with any of them.
>
>Perhaps you should read the entire post before you pop off
>like this.

[mark414]

5. good analogy

with hitler and the concentration camps

i get more and more frustrated and disenchanted with this board every single day...the level of ignorance of some is absolutely astounding, and not even just with regards to slavery, even reaching into modern day issues of race relations and problems

[SemiCharmedQuark]

7. Hey Hamden!

Glad to see you are taking this on! Great reply, but I doubt it will stick. Have you waded through the earlier posts? This last week has seen white oppression being cried at every turn.

Steph.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. Another one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1594829


All they get from Affirmative Action is "white guilt" :eyes:

[HamdenRice]

11. How's this reply?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1594829#1594940

[SemiCharmedQuark]

12. Great reply, but be prepared to be pounced on.

Hell, even posting something like that is still showing white privilege. Someone posted that the OP didn't really believe what he was saying, or he wouldn't have had to type it on a message board.

I disagree. I think he believes EXACTLY what he is saying and that this message was to serve as a call out to every other white male DUer to rally around and congratulate themselves on how superior they are for their "color-blind" views. Just MHO, of course.

[Karenina]

35. Great post, Hamden

But it's casting pearls before swine as they don't want to get it, don't have to get it and can remain steadfast in their refusal to get it while rallying the boys and girls around to pat each other on the back.

White mom from Cary, N.C. (check the demographics) OUTRAGED, simply OUTRAGED I tell you from that little picaninny who dared call her son (obviously testing his envelope) out in an indelicate manner. SHE has disappeared from the thread, most assuredly bolstered in her righteous indignation to put the little bussed-in negress in her place. I LOVED her description, "All he did was..." She's schooling him well. And TPTB will back her and her "imperfect" son up. But they BOTH already know that.

2 rules in my household, no hitting, no name-calling. However, when my youngest called his cousin an asshole at a family gathering, it took me about a nanosecond to wade through the circumstances. Cousin was being an asshole, youngest used the word to great effect, producing an uproar and quickly retiring back into his solitude while the "issue" raged. He closed and locked the door to the room he was in and put on a headset. :silly:

[mark414]

13. oh shit...

what is WITH these people??

i posted a reply if anyone's interested:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1594829#1596064

[HamdenRice]

9. Hi Semicharmed

I could not wade through all of them, but I got the drift. I can't believe how clueless white DUers are, but just when I think I get where the majority of them are, they never cease to go even further. It's just so sad -- and these are the progressive white people! What must RWers talk like among themselves???

And yes, black "history month" seems to have brought out white "we're feeling sorry for ourselves and reverse discriminated against month".

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. To be fair, it's the same group again and again and again.

We have many white DUers that "get it", some even here in our group. But I think that as Bush alienates more and more people, our tent gets bigger and bigger. We have a lot of "moderates" on this site that are very conservative socially and maybe even fiscally, but they just..hate..bush.

[Brewman_Jax]

6. Again?

Are the white DU'ers feeling oppressed? Standard answer to dealing with the institutionalized racial caste system in the US--don't talk about it, sweep it under the rug. There are rich black people, thus there can't be racism. The ignorance abounds. :eyes:

Good luck, Mark, you're a brave man. :thumbsup:

[HamdenRice]

14. On a lighter note, here is spoof of those threads...

Take a look here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2637122

[mark414]

15. i found it interesting...

that when the thread(s) was(were) inflammatory towards non-white people they stayed wide open, but that one looks like it got locked relatively quickly...

[HamdenRice]

16. Yeah and I'm about to be banned for good for my posts so...

if anyone wants to stay in touch, perhaps we should exchange email addresses soon!

[mark414]

28. heh...another "anti" white people thread locked...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3120183#3120461

also in your PM you were talking about some posts you had made? any links or have they already gotten deleted?

[mark414]

17. AAAAGGGGHHHHHHH

i saw a couple of you on this thread already...it's hard to even be calm and diplomatic anymore they just get more and more ignorant

"My son was called a "cracker" at school today"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3118323

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. Ehh, forget it. It's not even worth it anymore.

You can't explain to people who are basically going "LALALALALALA WHITE OPPRESSION!" all the time.

[ultraist]

20. It's OK for a kid to physically take a ball from a kid but...

the kid that reacted and called names is the only one in the wrong. INTERESTING that the inappropriate behavior that precipitated this, was not even noticed.

I can guarantee that if my black son physically forced a ball from a white girl, all hell would break loose at the school. I would get a call from the teacher and he would get an after school detention.

WAKE UP TO REALITY people. I live in the same town where this occured and know the school systems well. I have two children. One white and one black. We are white upper middle class parents. I can assure you that it is NOT white kids here that are oppressed.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. I noticed that to. To get that ball from her, he had to snatch, hit, grab

pull, push, or something along those lines. Yet...silence. These people expect me to believe that this hateful 12 year old girl is a racist because she got angry when someone took something forcibly from her.

[Karenina]

36. And she dared protest?

KILL the little wench before she breeds!!!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

37. Notice that by reply #9, the OP already had made her decision

Actually, in #9 she posts that she already called the principal. So it took less than 9 replies to decide that. And some of those replies were her own. It makes me wonder if she really wanted opinions or just to stir shit up.

[Karenina]

38. I culled her posts in mine.

Take a lookee:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3118323&mesg_id=3128628

[SemiCharmedQuark]

22. And they always turn to the same excuse "I want to end racism forever!"

Or some other "Im colorblind" statement. Always.

Bullshit. You don't become a society that is racially accepting by pretending differences in the treatment of people don't already exist.

[Karenina]

29. The poor boy

must have been "DEVASTATED." :eyes:

[ultraist]

19. WTF is up with all of the RACIST comments on this board?

Can people really be that uneducated? PLEASE do some searches and read up about racism.

This is so frustrating to see on a supposed liberal board. How sad that my children and all children have to grow up in a society so UNaware and UNinformed.

NO ONE, who has made a racist comment, has answered my question that I have posed numerous times of:

WHY is the percentage of blacks in poverty THREE TIMES AS HIGH as the percentage of whites in poverty?

Why are there big gaps between edu and income levels between blacks and whites?

Is it because blacks are less capable?
Or is it because we do not have a level playing field in our society?

[kk897]

23. I hate to horn in here...

Here's sort of an open letter to this forum:

I contributed cash to DU for the first time, just now, because I really wanted to join in this discussion and this forum. You may not want me here, and that's fine--just tell me to take off and I will. You certainly don't need my voice joining in and saying, "yeah! I agree!" I really want to learn something new and listen to find out what I can do to change things, either here at DU or in the "real" world.

I first came to DU after the election. I knew it was stolen, before anyone cast a vote, because Greg Palast's reporting made it crystal clear to me what I already felt was true: that racism is still institutionalized and that those in power are doing everything in their power to make it stay that way. To me, the election was ALWAYS a civil rights fiasco. I tried to share this viewpoint with the people in the election results forum, as did many others, but it seemed to me that ANY thread suggesting this angle sank like a stone. Then when they all started singing the praises of Barbara Boxer but pretty much ignored Stephanie Tubbs-Jones (from my state but unfortunately not my Rep), I was really bummed. My heart kind of went out of it at that point.

Reading your posts here has made me realize that what I experienced in the election forum wasn't necessarily just a simple lack of interest, but perhaps more indicative of the general character of those at DU. You get 60K+ people together, and it's a pretty good sampling of a population, I'd say. It's so sad. So sad.

I got the "white liberal guilt" thing thrown at me once on the election forum, and I just ignored it. It's probably true. But then again, sometimes people *should* feel guilty. I am privledged because of the color of my skin, and I try never to forget it. It's completely and utterly wrong, and I benefit from the racism embedded in our society. I feel bad about it, and I do want to try to do something about it.

So, that's me, spilling my guts. Thanks for "listening," Now I'm going to listen to you. While you certainly don't need my help in trying to change DU attitudes, if there's something you'd like for me to do, I can try. Among this population, of all in America, change must occur.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

24. Welcome to the AA Issues group!

I have no doubt you'll be most welcome here. It's a pretty small group, and I'm sure in no time you'll see we welcome everyone. It's a great place to get away from the typical threads you're talking about. Also sometimes you get some real knee-slappers (someone once said that those from the confederacy were the greatest heroes our country ever knew). So...um...yeah. Welcome!

-Steph

[kk897]

25. SCQ: thanks for the warm welcome! n/t

[mark414]

26. welcome

just to let you know you're not the only privileged person here...i am among the fair-skinned population of this country...

although lately i find myself spending more and more time in here because it seems to be the only forum where people make any sense, especially in the last couple weeks when all of these absolutely ridiculous threads that we've noted in here started popping up...

[angee_is_mad]

27. Welcome!

This is probably the most open forum in DU. I would also like to thank you for your sensitivity to our issues.

I do have a suggestion for you. Since you are open to discussion and you don't view the world through rose colored glasses, how about posting you views in the GD?

Unfortunately in this world, when a black person complain about racial injustice the mainstream(white) view it as whining. I would be very curious about the reaction you would receive.

This is just a suggestion and once again thank you for your sensitivity and welcome to AA.

[kk897]

30. Hi angee (and I don't blame you for being mad!) and mark

Thanks guys for the welcome, again. angee, I think yours is a good suggestion. I mainly tried to express my views in the election forum until recently, when I have shifted my focus to the other forums. I tend to be attracted to threads that require a tin foil hat to really get into (I'm a conspiracy buff, what can I say?), but I will make a more concerted effort to find threads where my opinions on race relations and white privilege (and power structures...and how to topple them) might be appropriate or useful or interesting to someone other than myself to express. I usually get so depressed when I see them, but things MUST change, at least here on DU.

One reason I haven't donated to DU until just yesterday is that I'm not even sure I'd call myself a Democrat. I'm way lefter than that! Yet I've also been disappointed by the Greens. But when I saw all those wonderful Dem Reps stand up to object to Ohio's electoral votes, I gained a little hope for the party. Maybe things *can* turn around for DU and the Dems.

I spent much of last night reading messages from other threads in this group forum, and I think it pointed me in some interesting directions for even further reading. Thanks to everyone who posts and who agitated to get this group started!

[angee_is_mad]

50. You're welcome

I've been away for a few days. I had to take a break from this place, but I am back and madder than Hell.
I read about the threads on here, but I can't find them on GD or DL. Are these threads attracting much attention? Or are the message hidden in the body of the thread and I can't go by the topic?

[kk897]

51. well, I think gannon-mania has gripped DU for the past few days,

flooding the boards with speculation (I'm guilty of it, too!) so it wouldn't surprise me if the threads were archived by now.

I remember one was called something like, "My kid got called 'Cracker' today." Another one was along the lines of "So is it okay for --- to call --- (some racist term)?" (Obviously don't really remember the title that well!) Another one had reparations in the title.

I doubt that'll help, but maybe...

[mark414]

52. we've got the links scattered around this forum...

here's some, if you haven't seen them already:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x1337#1347

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. Damn, Mark. 5 out of 6 of those are my threads. You're going to give me

a complex!

[mark414]

54. ha

well you just do such a great job of keeping on top of things, what can i say

[angee_is_mad]

55. Interracial group

do we have any of the members in this group? Maybe we can band together?

[HamdenRice]

31. welcome to AA issues -- and one observation

You wrote that "...but perhaps more indicative of the general character of those at DU. You get 60K+ people together, and it's a pretty good sampling of a population, I'd say. It's so sad. So sad."

DU is liberal, but it is not representative of either the democratic party, the progressive movement or the population at large. I did a decidedly unscientific sample and found that a good estimate of the percentage of black people on DU is about 1.4% -- way below the 25% of the population or even higher percentage of the Democratic Party. The same holds for other minorities.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=258&topic_id=129&mesg_id=129

This creates a strange vibe -- like a room full of white people discussing race, unwilling to listen to the one black woman in the corner. Hence both the members and moderators enforce -- and I really mean enforce -- a kind of racial color blindness -- maybe just plain blindness is a better term -- when it comes to racial issues. It's always like mark says: we're all color blind, we don't see race, any discussion of race is divisive. And if they don't shout down any countervailing perspective, the moderators will lock or delete the post or thread.

I am writing now because I was amazed that a post went up in DU by a white person about DUs racial intolerance and it was zapped in about 45 seconds into cyber oblivion. This is about the only forum you can freely discuss racial issues.

[kwassa]

32. I read the thread too, tried to agree, Ulraist wrote a great post

and it got zapped.

I think there is much foolishness about the issues of race going on in DU.

[kk897]

34. Hi HR--

really interesting stats you put up there. I wonder why DU doesn't reflect the Dem party? I wonder if the same stats would be true in other large online liberal/Dem/etc. communities like DKos. Any theories?

Yet more to think about. Thanks, and thanks for the welcome.

Oh, and I was once in a room like that you describe. Really, really made me uncomfortable.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Karenina]

39. I'm kicking this to put it above

white folks talking about white folks problems in this forum. :evilgrin:

[HamdenRice]

40. Yet Another Poor, Oppressed White People Thread

ChairOne came up with this great label -- YAPOWPT!

Here it is -- with a little twist: It is about Asians using the N word or Shaq making fun of Yao. Yawn.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3128947#3130437

[Karenina]

41. The OP's handle

is familiar to me from the old DU1 days. :puke: A word to the wise: IGNORE.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

42. What if a black man calls a mexican "spic" while standing upside down

in the rain drinking pepsi and playing the accordian? Would THAT be acceptable?


I'm just trying to expand the issues :D

[kwassa]

44. Thank you all for the great responses in that thread,

I couldn't add a thing and several of you said it much much better an clearer than I ever could.

ChairOne cracks me up! Hamden's responses were wonderful, too.

I think the acronym YAPOWPT should be used over and over ...

[fishwax]

45. I really liked your post #44 in that thread

particularly where you said:

It's like believing that the environmental crises, such as air pollution and global warming are caused by individual who don't value the environment rather than by economic institutions and organization.

An excellent analogy, I thought, and one I'll use in the future. Since that thread is locked I couldn't reply there.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

43. I have to say...Dr. Weird cracks me up in these threads.

DrWeird
93. Where'd you find those quotes?
Are they from the "my little bastard finally got told off" thread?

lol. Im a terrible person...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

46. This post cracked me up...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3118323&mesg_id=3125911&page=

[HamdenRice]

47. That is a new low for DU

White pride/white power! This is so appalling.

[Karenina]

48. And another one bites the dust!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2667917

[DrWeird]

49. "ebonics = shitty english"

same poster, different thread, and a different opinion on the same topic.

[HamdenRice]

56. These zombies just won't die!!!

In a thread about whether America is a great country, here is an exchange you'll love:

18 Maybe in around 1963 we were at our peak and one of the freest countries.
But even then we had red-baiting, poverty, a cold war, all manner of problems - it's never been anywhere near a utopia. Problem is the millions of us who were raised in the middle-class suburban bubble, from which it LOOKED damn near like a utopia. Millions are still clinging to the fantasy, insulating their own bubble more and more, while refusing to take action to deal with the mounting realities of war, deficits, poverty and a decimated manufacturing base.

22. In '63 it was better?...
...Maybe if you were white.


29. Yes. It was better for the white majority.
Was the goal of the civil rights movement to impoverish more white people? I hope not.
There was a prosperous working class in the 60s. Not anymore.

38. Really? So you're glad that the working class has been decimated?
That almost no moms can afford to stay at home even for a few years anymore? You think that's progress?
There have been some gains for people of color, but last time I checked, poverty was still endemic for them too.
For some people, drinking fountains and symbolism are of the utmost importance.
For me, EVERYBODY having a decent standard of living is way more important.
I don't buy into symbolism - we've got a "black" Secretary of State now, and that does NOTHING for any person of color.
I think your post is creepier by far. Trying to sniff for some hint of veiled racism, because poverty is irrelevant to you.


42. THere seems to be an attitude among many afffluent liberals...
That because segregation was struck down, it has somehow translated into better living standards.
The fact is that poverty among people of color is still very high, and poverty among whites is higher (and don't cite me poverty statistics that define the poverty line as $12K for a family of 4)
The right and affluent liberals use symbolic victories like busing or Condi as secy of state to try to pretend that we've made progress.
But the rich have gotten richer and the poor - both black and white - have gotten poorer and more numerous.

[Karenina]

57. I read that one....

:puke: :puke: :puke:

Hey, but at LEAST, "WE'RE WHITE!!!" Can I tell you how many times I had that screamed in my face as a kid???