This GD post literally left me speechless.

[Chovexani]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3603899&mesg_id=3603972

The ignorance, it burns, precious. </Gollum> I don't even know where to start.

:wtf::banghead:

[mark414]

1. i don't even know how to respond to that one

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Chovexani]

2. What do you even say to something like that?

The saddest thing? Apparently a lot of other people think the same way. Check out this gem of a post later on in the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3603899&mesg_id=3604580

Just...OMG. I guess I should cancel my subscription to Rolling Stone and run out to get Ebony. :wtf:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

11. That's awful....

Lowrider...http://www.lowridermagazine.com/

it almost makes me want to puke. I can't believe he said that.

[Solly Mack]

3. Gawds!

What did Alice Walker say in "The Color Purple"?...Shug said it...

Oh yeah..."miracles of affliction"

WOW!

[Pithy Cherub]

4. Help me understand!@%^#$*&*%

I tried...I really did... Poster may have believed my skin tone was a different hue... I was shocked when I first read that.

:wtf:

[Chovexani]

5. The irony

Posters who make such blanket statements about why people of color supposedly don't feel welcome on web forums have no clue that their penchant for making asinine assumptions like that are a big part of the problem.

I was utterly blown away. Even more so because that POV is apparently prevalent here (judging by the responses).

[Pithy Cherub]

6. We lack the language skills... have you heard bush torture words?

People have no idea who's on the other keyboard so the assumption and basis for bias is that they must be like me - (whatever that is for everyone.) So many feel quite free in laying out their biases in all their naked glory and make really broad sweeping stupid statements.

My brother is an Asst. Chief of Police and plays big time action games online - it never occured to him to tell the other players he was black. He thinks the games are cool and a way to blow off steam. There are always more people of color online than what people expect.

Do we need stats to illuminate the Truth? :hug:

[Chovexani]

7. Sadly I don't think stats would even help

I mean, you'd probably just get different stats as a response. Sometimes it amazes me how some people (white people in particular) are so desperate to cling to whatever notions they have about people. It's like, no matter how many times you tell them "sometimes the sky is gray" someone will go, "the sky is blue so stop saying that!!" It's more of the paternalistic "we know 'you people' better than 'you people' do" crap that I see a lot among certain progressives.

I think what offended me the most about that thread was the implicit assumption that there are "black interests" and "white interests". Especially the genius who said minority kids tend not to involve themselves in "geeky" things like sci-fi, RPGs, etc. According to the people in that thread I don't exist--I'm a queer, Gothic, Pagan black woman involved in geeky fandoms almost from birth (my aunt wrote Trek slashfic back in the '70s and took me to several cons when I was a kid). And no matter how many times I scream that yes, I do exist, and I'm not alone, people tell me I don't. No matter how many active yahoogroups I point to, no matter how many con photos I break out of black kids in full Jedi regalia (self included), no matter how many times I point out that one of the most infamous Trek slash writers is in fact a black chick, no matter how many Octavia E. Butler novels I point to...we don't exist. :banghead:

With the insinuation that maybe we shouldn't. It's one thing to be invisible (which is bad enough), it's quite another to be chastised for daring to be too big for the box people want to cram you in. For your own good, of course. It's just another way to keep us uppity Negroes and whiny minorities in our place. :eyes:

(And don't get me started on the assumption that Black People Everywhere love hip-hop and hip-hop culture...argh)

[Brewman_Jax]

8. I see what you mean

I would've answered, but I was too busy thumping the bass with my homies and going gang-banging. :spray:

If that level of ignorance is in someone who was trying :eyes: to be nice, I don't know if there's any hope. :banghead: I don't want to think about the idiots who are against affirmative action and have nothing except the Limbaugh/RW ancedotal bullshit talking points.

[Chovexani]

9. Anti-AA people get on my damn nerves too

Especially so-called liberals who KNOW Limpballs, etc. are full of shit on every single other issue but parrot reich wing talking points to "prove" AA is not necessary. On that issue it seems like a lot of otherwise reasonable people just shut their brains down and switch on Dumbass Auto Pilot.

I'm about to totally give up. I mean...how can so many people just. Not. GET IT?! I've seen race-related posts that walked off the short bus before but...wow. This one just really hit me where I live I guess.

Sigh.

[Tigress DEM]

54. Just a thought...

Although the primary thing is to apologize for white people everywhere that such a stupid post exists and that I hear you, it's just mind boggling how presumptious it is....

When I read through the post I was really thinking more ESL - Older Spanish Speaking people - kids adapt pretty fast, Somalai - maybe more of a cultural thing, Older Hmong who like lots of older Americans just didn't dive into computers, minorities, but not necessarily the majority of African Americans who bust their butts to get to college or wherever and know their way around computers just fine.

I got that out of it mostly because the language barrier was stressed and I didn't think they meant Eubonics.

I work in IT and there are definate levels of discomfort with technology in all groups as far as I can see, but the hardest part about supporting people on computers is there are can potentially be multiple language barriers even with people who speak English perfectly. All the jargon.

You know every application you work on has a general terminology for the users that often has nothing to do with understanding it when it blows up. Then there is how does the helpdesk describe technical things in plain English, much less throw in Spanish or German or French into the Equation.

Not trying to give excuses, just wondering if it really is as bad as it seems because there did seem to be a small amount of concern for minorities in the post. IMO.

[Robeson]

10. That thread only proves that some people....

...are very confused as to what a Progressive or Liberal is. They may think they are, but based on what they're saying, they clearly have a confused understanding of Progressivism. If they understood Progressivism, they could never make those comments. Wow, is all I can say.

[jmm]

12. Here's where to start-

paternalism
A noun
1 paternalism

the attitude (of a person or a government) that subordinates should be controlled in a fatherly way for their own good


Of course I had to look that one up 'cause my people don't be knowing grammer. We mad busy icing out our necks

[Chovexani]

13. This is why I love this group.

It brings the Earth logic to the yard. *cries tears of joy*

[fortyfeetunder]

14. I love this statement, especially

"Minority folks often feel very uncomfortable on the Internet due to the enforcement of norms and folkways that differ from those in their community."

:wtf: what community is he talking about? Certainly not the community I live in. The poster probably thinks we all live in one big ghetto...

[Solly Mack]

15. There's one like that in the lounge regarding the movie

"Hotel Rwanda"

brb with exact quote

edit:
"I've always wondered, and maybe this is slightly racist of me, but I wonder if white folks who see these kinds of movies are more affected than nonwhite folks. I'm just sayin'. For example, I wasn't blown away by Boyz in the Hood, or Menace II Society..."

[fortyfeetunder]

16. Why these opinions will be perpetuated

There is a population in America (and it likely includes some DU'ers, based on the posts I've seen) that has only been exposed to what minority America is through the mainstream media (MSM). They have not taken the time to learn the diversity within each culture. They probably say things like "I have friends who are , but have nearly accepted what is presented in MSM as gospel. There is a lack of critical thinking in this population

Think about what the MSM presents about Black, Hispanics, Whites, Native Americans and Asians in the US. I don't think it ever occurred to this particular population there is a wide spectrum of folks of different socio-economic backgrounds, not just the sample portrayed in the media. MSM only wants to show what they think is typical and there are few to none outside of that spectrum, that is, it doesn't make news.

I don't think, we are going to see a drastic change in MSM, not like what happened in the late 60's-early 70's until we have another civil rights revolution, such as after the civil rights movement, culminating with the MLK assassination. Therefore we can come to expect this population of America to think along those lines.

[Swamp Rat]

17. This one caused me put this DUer on ignore

We were talking about musicians and this DUer kept trying to tell me Jimi Hendrix was overrated... then then REAL reason came out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3179162&mesg_id=3206025&page=

[JohnKleeb]

18. Oh my

First of all man, I agree with you on Hendrix, one hell of a Guitarist, and reminds me to pick up Axis Bold As Love and Are You Experienced on CD, I already have Electric Lady Land, Best of, and the CD Box set. Back to the topic at hand though, thats a very fucked up thing to say. Damn people are so racist and they dont even know it.

[Swamp Rat]

19. It just came right out, didn't it?

Do you think I was harsh in my response? It really pissed me off! I mean, music knows NO COLOR... or ALL COLORS, however you want to put it. I wanted to respond to that poster with 100 watts of dissonant chords, tritones played through a ring modulator and a Marshall stack!!! :mad:

Back to Hendrix... :D ... I may have gone on to other styles of music, but Hendrix was my original inspiration when I began to really play guitar. I even got kicked out of music school for concentrating ONLY on his style. When I was a teen, I thought he was a genius - I still do... I know it's been done, but maybe I should do a couple of Hendrix arrangements for classical guitar. I really miss playing his tunes.

All three albums you mentioned are masterpieces, even with the flaws Hendrix himself acknowledged. "Electric Lady Land" - "1983, a Merman I should Turn to Be" is an odyssey in sound, kinda like "Echos" from Pink Floyd's "Meddle" (another favorite group and album of mine). :)

Thanks JohnKleeb!

[JohnKleeb]

20. He was being a racist, you werent harsh

Music is a diverse and it really doesnt matter the person's race at all, Yeah Hendrix was great, one of the first guitarists I got in to after I
heard his rendition of Dylan's All Along the Watchtower, Ive felt he makes that song his own, he does it that good, no problem, I prefer Kleeb or John if you wanna call me either or.

[Swamp Rat]

21. OK, I'll go with Kleeb

It's a really cool name I can remember. :)

[JohnKleeb]

22. Yep cool

You know who I think is underestimated as far as guitarists go, Bob Marley, like he's world renowned for his songwriting ability which I think is great but Ive listened to the way he plays guitar, its quite good.

[Swamp Rat]

23. Yeah, we played one of his tunes at a gig last night.

We played mostly Brazilian music like Djvan and originals, but we did one Bob Marley cover. He's another GREAT musician who is underrated as a guitarist.

edit: Up too late to spell right today... :boring:

[JohnKleeb]

24. Ahh Brazilian music is great

I wish I could play a musical instrument but not being able to play one doesnt get in my way of enjoying great music. Yeah another thing about Marley that you gotta love is his variety in songs, like some of his songs like Waiting In Vain are like love longs, some have some spirtual overtones in them, and others ilke Redemption Song are protest songs, and some are just I dunno what one would consider Jammin' though.

[Swamp Rat]

25. "Waiting In Vain" - THAT'S the song we played!

... " I don' wanna, I don' wanna, I don' wanna, I don' wanna, I don' wanna wait in vain..." :D

As for playing an instrument, JUST DO IT!!! When I lived in Brasil, I saw many many children, teens and adults playing plastic and metal garbage cans, or whatever they could get their hands on, to make music. Get yourself some bongos and just start playing along with music you like. Get a used acoustic guitar, learn how to tune it and begin experimenting - believe me, I began experimenting BEFORE I learned how to tune a guitar and I made up sounds that even Frank Zappa or Tom Zé would have been impressed with... though, I blew up my dad's stereo... I was only 9. :shrug:

I swear to you, on behalf of all the Orisha, that you will never regret learning how to play music - it will open many Doors. DO IT! ... you will also get laid a lot! ;) :D

[JohnKleeb]

34. That song is the song I think of

when I think of the girl I have a huge crush on.

[jmm]

26. Replace Jimi Hendrix with Donovan McNabb

they sound just like Rush Limbaugh.

[politicasista]

28. What?

:wtf:

[jmm]

29. I don't see much of a difference between

saying people are only talking about Hendrix because he was black and McNabb was overrated because the media wanted to see a black quarterback succeed like Limbaugh did when he was a sports commentator.

[JohnKleeb]

36. jmm is saying replace Donovan McNabb with Jimi Hendrix

in what they say and they sound like what Rush said about McNabb and what later got in him trouble with ESPN or was it ABC Football. The facts are that McNabb and Hendrix were and are a great quarterback and guitarist respectively.

[JohnKleeb]

35. Nice comparsion

Hey, remember me, we met in Boston, I was the dude in the green sox hat.

[jmm]

48. Hi!

I remember you. I hope you enjoyed Boston :hi:!

[RagingInMiami]

27. WTF!

Hendrix did things with the guitar that nobody would dream doing at that time. He took the blues music to another level that just blew people away.

If anything, I would think his race would have played against him when he was starting out. But the guy's sheer talent just couldn't be ignored.

[fortyfeetunder]

32. What an analogy!

Mozart and Felix Mendolson-Bartholdy in their early 30's and I guess in this person's analogy they're overrated in the classical world?

edited...

[Dogmudgeon]

30. Gossip. I am such a fool to have fallen for it.

Yep. It sure does burn.

It's 100% dish, isn't it? You solicited 27 posts behind my back for the purpose of tearing me down. You wanted a high-drama offense tantrum, and since the other thread wasn't centered around you, you started one here.

You never read what I wrote -- that much is obvious. You never pointed out what linguistic taboos I had transgressed. But you DID manage to recruit about a dozen people to validate your pride drama.

Gossip. Trash-talk dressed up as righteous outrage.

You didn't even have the guts to tell me why you flew off the handle, either. I still don't know, and the old "you just don't get it" rag won't play -- it's an admission of ignorance. Not when "Eek! Eek! Look at this!" works so much better.

The other three or four people in the other thread took the same route. NONE of them specified a single item except for Pithy Cherub, who I see has also turned up on this gossip thread.

You want irony? My point was that minority people face pressure from privileged linguistic and social "norms" -- the SAME issue at work behind standardized test bias and the "No Child Left Behind" scam.

Like a fool, I was sweating out a massive Liberal Guilt Trip. No pity for me -- I was a fool, all right spending the better part of the last day trying to figure out what I had done to so outrage the righteous bedrock of DU, and kept coming up empty, and racked my brain some more. Now that's stupid! I thought I had actually done something wrong. No wonder no one was able to actually specify what I had done -- I had done nothing wrong with the possible exception of use the wrong Magic Words.

You sure put one over on me. You really are good, and it shows. I've been on-line since 1988, and I'd never encountered such an accomplished gossipteer. You are the Queen. Enjoy your reign. And pray that no one realizes that they could be next.

Now, go trot off and report me to the Admins for a spanking. I must deserve one for being such an idiot to assume this was anything except the usual corrosive in-group gossip. My only regret is that I gave a clique of common trash-talkers a whole day to work on me, and that this message will be gone within five minutes of being reported.

--p!

[fortyfeetunder]

31. I think you erred, fellow DUer!!!

"My point was that minority people face pressure from privileged linguistic and social "norms" -- the SAME issue at work behind standardized test bias and the "No Child Left Behind" scam."

You might have had some credibility if you said there was a "certain population" of minority people, but your quote above, verbatim, sought to stereotype us as a group, which is contrary to what is actually happening.

Did it ever occur to you there is a population of minority people who are NOT encumbered by pressure from privileged linguistic and social norms?

[Dogmudgeon]

38. This is quite possible (long post follows)

I am open to the idea. In fact, I normally assume I erred if there's a problem -- but when I see a large number of instantly hostile posts, all of them personal and quick to place unearned blame, with only one DUer even trying to communicate why this should happen -- and then a second thread, dedicated to complaining about me, with over 30 posts on it, I start to wonder whether I'm the only one who messed up -- if at all.

Yes, I did consider that there is a population of minority people who are NOT encumbered by pressure from privileged linguistic and social norms. It's been that way since day one. I thought I had made that clear, or at least drawn the distinction. After all, there is considerable use of the term "white boy" at DU, and it's understood to be a limited stereotype, not a whole-group indictment.

Here is what I wrote. I have reformatted the qualifiers in bold.

Not a whole lot of minority folks have computers. Those that do usually don't use on-line "communities" like DU because they just aren't very reflective of their lifestyles.

This is far different from "all minority people".

... with poorer education and fewer grammatical and spelling skills, language-arts flames intimidate them ...

This is probably the one that set people off. As a piece of a list with several other qualifiers, it was difficult for me to read prejudice from that. If I had it to do over again, I would replace the initial "with" with the phrase "those who have". I was also working under the impression that the anaphora "them" referred not to all minority people, but to people who had been flamed off the Internet.

And here is your own statement: "... your quote above, verbatim, sought to stereotype us as a group, which is contrary to what is actually happening ... " I sought nothing of the kind. I believed I was on solid ground by pointing out that culture-based language bias was strong on-line, and it was a barrier to minority net users, the same way that standardized testing is. I thought -- maybe erroneously -- that it was similar to saying "minorities face bigotry that interferes with their chances for success." "Culture" -- and the subcategory "minority people" -- are well-known to be collective nouns. Why was fault imputed to me for using the term in the first place?

Do you really require every subordinate clause to be heavily qualified to understand that the writer knows a social problem exists instead of trying to perpetuate it? Or to believe that sufficient respect has been shown? This is exactly why I think the outrage is bogus. There were several options available to "interpret" what I wrote, and all but one of them were non-confrontational. Correction of my mistakes would have been quick and uncomplicated, but it would not have been exciting. Do you actually believe that I carefully crafted a statement to piss off the same people I agreed with? The willingness to see the worst in other people -- people who oppose the same problems -- is disturbing.

And I'm still willing to accept that I gave the wrong impression. I am still willing to apologize for unintentional offense given. But there is a lot more error going on here than just mine. I'm convinced that there was nothing I could have written at any time that would have given me "credibility". And I'm NOT willing to apologize for the mistakes of others when they gossip behind my back and pretend to be injured, outraged, and justified. Malicious gossip is a severe transgression itself.

fortyfeetunder, there are six or seven of you and one of me. Was it really so difficult for anyone to point out that I had made a writing mistake that gave a bad, wrong, and/or terrible impression?

If you really want to resolve this, I will stick around for another day or so to straighten it out. I had planned a break, for a number of reasons, but I will gladly stay flexible to see things put right. But if it's all wailing and gnashing of teeth and blaming me, someone should request the Admin to remove the offending posts in both threads (assuming this is the only other one). I have already contacted them with the message that there was a flash fire starting and to do as they see fit.

I will also respond to Pithy Cherub, below, and anyone else who wants to discuss the issue. In fact, I will consider and respond to all rational replies -- even if they're angry ones -- collectively and as non-personally possible. If this thread gets shut down, you can contact me by e-mail or IM if you wish (please allow time lags as long as 72 hours next week).

--p!

[Pithy Cherub]

33. We each own the things we speak, the things we do

and the things we write. Your post is on a public forum available for public consumption anywhere and everywhere unless you delete it or a mod.

I honestly tried not to be snarky because it was apparent that you thought you were being expansive. Your pride is hurt and the one thing you said that is probably the most HOPEFUL is that you thought about it. The larger point is that you were taking an entire race and casting aspersions and making your argument that everybody is like the stereotype you outlined.

Then you come here to be doubly hurt because it is a topic for discussion. Everything her at DU is a topic for discussion. Did it occur to you that it would have been much more advantageous to seek some assistance and information so that at the end of this you come out with more knowledge and a deeper appreciation of the scope of life we all enjoy. Please take some time and think it through. Are all white people Like bush - that is the analogy you so patronizingly made in your post for people of color.

[Dogmudgeon]

41. Pride? A two-way street.

Pride is an easy accusation to make. And it is probably true to an extent. But you have neglected two big parts of my reaction, and gotten many of the particulars wrong.

First, pride is not something privileged to you and forbidden to me. How would you explain that most of the other critics here made snap judgements, reacted with full-bore outrage, and made dozens of statements about what I thought, how I lived, who I was, when it was easy to see that at the very most, I had written too carelessly and was NOT stereotyping?

You may think this is hyperbole, but point number two is a little more sinister. Accusations of racism are nearly as poisonous to white liberals and progressives as accusations of pedophilia. Have you considered how this accusation might go over in my life? Now, none of this "own your words" trope. The response was clearly disproportionate. What offense did I commit to merit this? And how can you expect me to NOT want to set the record straight?

Third, a new thread dedicated to trash-talking me was started, which quickly attracted some three dozen messages. Imagine what that was like -- without comforting yourself that I somehow deserved it, because I did not.

I don't know how you would describe it, but "malicious gossip" sounds pretty accurate to me. If you truly believe that malicious gossip is harmless and that I am simply acting out of wounded pride, I would beg you to reconsider it in a different context where your own prides and prejudices are not so active (i.e., about someone other than me). Because it really is trash talk. And the other frequently-used adjective, "corrosive", describes it well.

You also make a concerted effort to disown any responsibility on the part of anyone but me. In particular is the implication that it's acceptable to insult people behind their back for public spectacle and personal catharsis on the basis of free speech.

Your post is on a public forum available for public consumption anywhere and everywhere ... Everything here at DU is a topic for discussion ...

If this is the DU Social Contract, then why, when this private gossip hall was instituted, was I not informed to allow me to account for myself? Why did I have to find out by accident, looking for unrelated information? Am I so powerful and evil a man that you (pl.) found it necessary to hide from me?

And what does it tell your public about you?

I can not even discuss the next part of the last paragraph without far exceeding the bounds of the DU Rules. Please re-read what you wrote, keeping the words "pride" and "patronizing" in mind. How can you write these things, over a faux-pas? And then blame me of doing the same thing, after clearly seeing that you had gotten it wrong twice -- the stereotyping, and the pride -- ?

Do you realize how easily this could have been avoided on your part? If you had indeed sought to improve my character, wouldn't it have been better to confront the thing directly: "Pigwidgeon, now look what you have done. You didn't make it clear enough that you were talking about prejudice, and so a lot of people immediately thought you were talking from prejudice." Fifteen minutes later, a full clarification would have appeared, with an apology to those whose sore spots were poked by my carelessness.

Nope: first I was taken to task for stereotypes I don't uphold, in the process of decrying them, and now I am supposedly driven by pride to self-justification, in spite of ample evidence to the contrary for both, and with no comprehension of how I might have suffered an injury (in the public forum sense, that is, a tort) far more potent than a dubious stereotype. But I said something wrong; yet no one can tell me precisely, or even generally, what it was, beyond the idea that it was a sweeping generalization where I made no such generalizations. (And how am I to "seek some assistance and information so that at the end of this (I) come out with more knowledge..."?) For this, an entire thread?

Yes, indeed, I own my words and will continue to do so. And yes, I have thought about what has been going on, and am glad you found it hopeful. But forgive my own mind-reading if I say that what you (and not just you alone) hoped for was my humble submission and future obedience.

You'll get an apology from me for my poor writing when I get an apology for the torrent of undeserved bile released on my behalf. You know I'm not a bigot and you know the choir isn't acting from all pure motives and Godly agency. The very worst you ever suffered at my hand was an unintentional insult rendered by an idiot who neglected to cross his T's and dot his I's.

The invitation I left with fortyfeetunder stands. If you feel the injury has become too grievous, alert the mods. I will drop the thread if I see locking, deletion, or no further action. (Or if I am banned, of course.) Either way, I'll stick around to work it out, or leave you alone, as you wish.

--p!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

37. Well, I haven't said anything in regards to your post, but here's what I

found offensive.

You speak of minorities as if we are some sort of subspecies. It reminded me of when I was a kid and the zookeeper would say "Don't stare directly at the gorillas, they are not used to humans and will get confused and angry." I can only speak for myself, but it offends me that you are speaking so broadly about a huge group.

Further, you are forgetting that there are MANY successful middle class minority families. Your points all refer to the poorest members of minority classes. You use the poorest members to judge all of us. You are using the stereotypes to judge all of us. This is no more true than if I were to say that white people aren't used to computers because they all live in trailers.
The fact that you clearly have good intentions when you post is disturbing. If good, honest, decent people are this out of touch how can normal people ever understand? And you may not accept "you just don't understand" but it's true. You won't. You won't until you ARE a minority or you have someone you love more than yourself that is a minority. Watch them get pulled over for any little infraction. Watch them get followed around by clerks. Watch them get denied for loans and ignored at upscale stores.

And here is the true funny part about this. This line here:

"You want irony? My point was that minority people face pressure from privileged linguistic and social "norms" -- the SAME issue at work behind standardized test bias and the "No Child Left Behind" scam."

You are doing the same thing. You and everyone who promotes the stereotypes that minorities don't feel comfortable being educated or being around people with decent English skills do the EXACT same thing. Why does everyone concentrate on what an ENTIRE group of people should or should not be? Why do people feel the need to categorize a whole group of people into this or that?


Now, as to my other post in this thread, you are damn right I take offense to that. How about we get white people's attention by running ads during Springer?

[Dogmudgeon]

39. My own fault?

First, several of these points I wrote to fortyfeetunder a couple of posts up, and you may want to look at that one, too.

If you believe I was talking about minorities as if they were subspecies, then you were surely placing focus on me, and letting everyone else pass. There is only one way to refer to a social group, and that is as a group. Hitler, for instance, didn't have 6 million individual grudges against the European Jews, he chose to exterminate the group (and an equal number of people from other minority groups as well).

Perhaps there was something to the way I used particular words. I apologize for the offense, but there is no other way to state the obvious without doing the PC Dance. Internet provinciality hits minority people hard. If that's a defamatory use of the word "minority", it will be quite difficult to express opposition to it. If there is a way to express it better, I will surely learn it.

One of the points that comes up again and again is that somehow, I really and truly believe all individuals to be identical items cut from a perfectly regular bolt of human cloth. Again, and as I wrote in other posts, you have no reason for assuming that is how I think, other than thinking you can read my mind. I was not using group descriptions to minimize individual differences but to discuss why diversity was uncommon at DU and on-line in general.

There's also the mind-reading I've seen in several posts. Someone might have asked what I thought about the individuals who did not fit the mold -- I would have wholeheartedly agreed with your points. At that time, I was writing about group privilege and exclusion. First, this is far, far afield from "all _____ are alike". Second, I made no judgement except to lament that Internet culture is provincial. Third, several people jumped to the conclusion that I was actively promoting these stereotypes when I was explicitly speaking about stereotypes being perpetuated and exploited for upholding Internet social "norms".

And if you can show me where I used the word "all" as in "all Black people" or "all Latinos" or suchlike, I will dedicate a full post to an apology within 24 hours, in this or the forum of your choice.

But let's come back to the mind-reading issue.

The fact that you clearly have good intentions when you post is disturbing. If good, honest, decent people are this out of touch how can normal people ever understand? And you may not accept "you just don't understand" but it's true. You won't. You won't until you ARE a minority or you have someone you love more than yourself that is a minority. Watch them get pulled over for any little infraction. Watch them get followed around by clerks. Watch them get denied for loans and ignored at upscale stores.

I really had to restrain myself there. Not about the cops pulling you over, or the loans you never were able to get. Oh, some of us DO get it, and we've had the experiences you prescribe to us to suffer. But it was that "someone you love" part that really got to me.

How can you take me to task for being insensitive to you and then, in clear voice and full throat, say such a thing yourself? Yes, I'll agree, there is plenty of irony to go around. It should come as no surprise that I don't accept "you just don't understand" when it comes from anyone willing to read my mind, limn my beliefs, and cite my history, and get so much of it WRONG.

Is this some kind of payback for the bigotry that other people have inflicted on you and/or your people? Are we still talking about individuals, or is it now acceptable to talk about groups?

You don't know about my ethnic identity. You don't know how many of my predecessors suffered oppression and died under bootheel and lash. I'm certain that you never met the woman I "loved more than myself" who came from a different ethnic group. And that's all I will say about it, because I'm not exactly clear-headed about the loss, and you don't deserve my irrationality about it.

But how can I know about bigotry? I use the wrong words! I don't use several qualifiers, adjectives, and adverbs for every collective noun, and that proves it!

Here's what I experience: An increasing number of people are working themselves up to states of righteous indignation over what is probably my making some mistakes of writing style, and then attacking me personally for the weight of their life's pain. They have blamed me for a personal failing that, in the Liberal/Progressive world, is nearly as prejudicial as pedophilia, with no more evidence than some poor writing that might not even be all that poor. I plead innocent to both bigotry and inexperience of hatred. The pain of the brutality of society spreads itself around better than you may suspect.

The fact that you clearly have good intentions when you post is disturbing. If good, honest, decent people are this out of touch how can normal people ever understand?

I may not be perfect, but I'm not out of touch. You have your own issues to work through as well.

I am NOT willing to suffer defamation, malicious gossip and abuse, and then beg and scrape, all in the name of righting wrongs I did not commit.

I'm willing to accept that I set some people off and a lot of us jumped the gun. I'll take the rap for my carelessness if I really was careless to begin with. If you think I've done you wrong, then I'm willing to listen, I'm willing to take input, I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, and I'm more than willing to apologize for giving even inadvertant offense. I will make the effort to put it right. But it will be impossible as long as you, and my other critics, continue to pass quick and lasting judgement on me from nothing more than incorrect assumptions about my life, my experiences, and my thoughts.

--p!

[angee_is_mad]

40. Hidden agendas

come to light and it is sometimes a bitter pill when it is exposed.

Thank God there is a forum where AA can come in and not have to be bashed when they DAre question a liberal(progressive)statement concerning the African Americans community.

There is an old saying that I remember about adultery. A woman either WANT to know or don't Want to know.

We can definitely switch woman for liberal or progressive when it comes to minority(AA) issues on here. Liberals either WANT to know or don't WANT to know when it comes to issues and concerns of African Americans..

[Dogmudgeon]

42. Bitter, indeed

On the other hand, bashing non-AAs and non-women seems to be quite in vogue. One of them even had a custom-made thread set up in his behalf. That way, all his outraged critics could comfortably gossip behind his back without having to bother asking him WTF, or listen to him tell them the way he saw it. Many people in general have no problem applying the stereotypes and then claiming exemption.

I claim no such exemption. The deal has always been simple with me -- show me where I was wrong, and I apologise. I may even apologise without having been wrong. But the wait will be long for anyone who wants to abuse me and pretend they have the right.

--p!

[angee_is_mad]

43. Don't even bother

because you are just not getting it. Or maybe you don't want to. Maybe this is your purpose (agenda).

[Dogmudgeon]

44. Nope

You're right in a sense, though.

I don't get it at all. Not all of it, anyway.

No one seems to have read what I initially wrote. I'm sorry, but I can't "get" what I either didn't do or wasn't told about. I don't mind-read, which is a complaint I had. And like most people, I prefer to stick out a fight, especially if it's based on a misunderstanding. But this one is just way too big, and I am not making it any better.

I also thought that maybe someone would read what they had read and see that it has gotten way out of hand. Well, since that centers around something I did, I will cop to it.

Maybe you'll get some sense of putting things in order if I just re-state my experience: I have been on-line since 1988, and the provincialism has always been like a desert. It's every bit as bad anywhere else you go in the world. The obstacles are similar to the biases in standardized tests. And it appears I made the case very badly. But no, I'm not about to go running to FR and whine about being oppressed by the PC police. My beliefs do not change when things go wrong.

If you're worried about an agenda, mine is simple. You don't have to puzzle it out. I've written it; it's here. Anything sinister-sounding should be taken as a mistake.

You know, actually, I really do get at least part of it, and I learned it here, so all is not lost. But along the lines of what was said about pride, I keep it in one form. I don't submit in obedience. No one should. But I do apologize for the shitstorm. That weather is my fault. Do not let it trouble you any further. It wasn't my intent, and I will leave the final word to you.

I'm bowing out of this. I swore I would bow out last night, but I felt that someone would want to get it cleared up, rather than just scream into the echo chamber. I'm going to stop my own screaming.

Unless you object, I will request that my posts be pulled tomorrow, so that this will die, but that anyone else who wants to respond to them will have the opportunity. If you want them pulled earlier, you know the drill.

I apologize. You win. I'm conceeding. I will think of these things at some length over the next few days.

--p!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

49. I apologize

If you are a minority or have witnesed it first hand. When the issue came up before, you did not say that you were a minority so I assumed you were not. That was my mistake.

Thirdly, I believe that you and I and probably got stuck trying to express thoughts that are difficult to express in words. I can only tell you what *I* personally felt reading your post. And yes, that does come with some prejudice. I probably do read your post differently than white DUers would. People don't tell whites what they should or should not be like.

For an example of what I'm talking about, think about Richard Wright's Native Son. It's a great book if you haven't read it yet. He has pressure from people to conform to what a black american is SUPPOSED to be. He has pressure at the same time to conform to what whites think black americans are supposed to be. And even those who feel that they are doing good are writing him off because "he's just a negro, he doesn't know any better."

Although that is not what you intended to say, the way you said it made it seem that way to me. It was a misunderstanding, and I apologize. I cannot listen to the tone of your voice when you speak, or watch your facial expressions or hand gestures. I can only go by what you write. Phrasing becomes crucial.

I hope that this settles everything. Thanks.

[noiretextatique]

53. even some minorities support insulting racialist theories

the rw loves them. i don't think you have anything to apologize for.

[noiretextatique]

52. your mistake wasn't in writing style

it was in your arrogance. you sounded like some clueless anthropologist from the 1920's commenting on a tribe in some country you shouldn't have been in anyway.
here's the deal: the digital divide is essentially ECONOMIC in nature. so...POOR people, of all races, are less likely to be online.
since america is and has been guilty of economic racism for centuries, poverty disproportionately affects americans who aren't white.
simple, easy explanation...no need for insulting racial inferiority theories.

[Solly Mack]

45. Okies

You answered a question regarding the limited diversity of DU using rather broad brush strokes.

It's that broad brush people found offensive.

Examples of the broad brush.

Not a whole lot of minority folks have computers.

(Says who? What is that based on? )


Those that do usually don't use on-line "communities" like DU because they just aren't very reflective of their lifestyles.

(What is that based on? What lifestyle? Are you saying non-white folks have a lifestyle different from white folks? How so? Are there democrats who are black? latino? progressive? DU is a political message board is it not? Are you saying white democrats are racist? prejudice? Exclusionary?)


They aren't comfortable in the alien milieu that is cyberspace.

(Huh? What's so alien about cyberspace? Would not any person, whatever their ethnicity, feel
"alien" to something they've never tried before? So it's really not a case of "They" (minorities) but a case "Any" who do not participate?)


Many forums require all messages to be posted in English; with poorer education and fewer grammatical and spelling skills, language-arts flames intimidate them;

(Are you talking about recent immigrants to the US who do not speak English? You'd have to be.)


most minority kids avoid geeky activities like science-fiction conventions, RPGs and Anglophilia;

(What is that based on? And how is "anglophilia" connected to sci-fi conventions and RPGs? Isn't that your assumption
of what you think "minorities" like or dislike? Find interesting, don't find interesting? And are you not applying your limited exposure
and experience across the board?


Because minorities hear this all the time. You seem to be saying black people don't value or enjoy things a white person might enjoy.As if being black
makes a person outside American culture(that's American culture perceived as white culture), simply based on skin hue.

"anglophilia"? (isn't that where a person obsesses on who Prince William is schtupping?) Have you heard about Prince Albert then? Cause he's been schtupping.
And while I'm not a professional anglophile, I can name the the entire Plantagenet line of royals.I can even pronounce the name correctly.)



and I've met several Latino and black folks who like cats, but I don't think anything like on-line cat fetishism is known in the 'hood.

(The "hood"? As compared to what? DU? As if DU is representative of any group of people? Are you suggesting ALL white people across America have an on line cat fetish, so they would all know? Are you saying minorities don't love their pets to the point of silliness? Are you saying minorities don't post about their pets on line? Catwoman would love to know that. You do know that "hood" just means neighborhood. How do you perceive and use the word?)



It's just not "their world", and we're doing nothing to help them into it or to build their own part of it.

(What do you mean,"...not their world"? What's my world then? If this isn't my world, what is? If you're saying some white people bring their prejudices and racism on line..or on DU to be exact...say that without the broad brush. You'd get a dialogue then.)

People get to the point where they hear the same shit over and over again, that they rather discuss it amongst themselves than to point out, yet again, how something is just plain wrong. You can only beat your head against the wall for so long. It just isn't worth the meager gains after a while.

If you really want to know what people found offensive, they're telling you. It's up to you to listen...or to reject.

[Dogmudgeon]

46. No argument here.

There is nothing in what you wrote that I can, or will, rebut.

Sorry it took me this long to compose the next post. It is kind of for everyone who got sucked into this. You too. I hope it answers some questions; enough of them, anyway.

--p!

[Dogmudgeon]

47. I concede.

The past few hours have given me much to think about. I will remain open to dialog, but when I looked back at it all, I realized what I was doing. The potential for damage is too great, and the heat is too high. I was an idiot for a second time to have tried to resolve it. I'm leaving the kitchen.

I apologize for all offenses given. The hurt feelings, the paranoia, the "high energy" -- that's on me. If there is anything you feel I left out, let me know. My only reservation is that I won't crawl or scrape. I want to let this sink in and figure out what the hell happened. There will be no self-castigation, and there will no blame. None whatsoever.

Hopefully, you will understand some of my reactions, and hopefully, I, too, will understand some of my reactions. I've not only said my peace, I've said it too much. I can end this quickly, and I will.

I will also contact admin tomorrow morning and ask that these posts be pulled, and if there's any blame to be distributed, that it is mine alone (unless you object strongly -- about pulling the posts, that is). If you have any responses, though, I will not shrink from reading them. If appropriate, I'll acknowlege them. But I can not promise to have it all worked out in the next few days.

And if you think this all should be deleted earlier, feel free to click "alert" and set the mods to the task.

I will consider this all in full over the next few weeks. I am not going to have as much time to devote to DU anyway, but I am not leaving or quitting. (It's one of those body things. Nothing serious, but time consuming for about a week or so.) I will be around unless the Admins issue a ban.

I have only one request, which you are of course free to disregard. Don't make this into too much of a "race thing". Our various races have very little to do with it. The cause is my own damned stupidity. And if it derives from any residual issues I have with race and ethnicity, it's still my own damned stupidity. There is no self-pity on my part. I have a great deal to think about. And I will not make the same mistake again.

--p!

[Pithy Cherub]

50. Grace is for all of us.

Thank you for listening and actually engaging enough to want to learn more. That is the part where most fail, when angry it is easier to retreat rather than do something that gets to a higher level of understanding. That is where you succeeded.

Hope you feel better!

[noiretextatique]

51. your post was idiotic and should have been deleted

because of its blatantly racist tone. instead of fixating on your guilt in standard masturbatory fashion, perhaps you should digest that poor attempt at condescending negroanthropological analysis.
you are not a victim.